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Post by jate88 on Oct 22, 2008 22:38:16 GMT -5
I was just curious. How much impact did fear of upsetting the christian hell hounds have on Charmed?
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 23, 2008 13:06:46 GMT -5
I was just curious. How much impact did fear of upsetting the christian hell hounds have on Charmed? I'd say a lot, since we never got a real Christmas (or Yule, as it should've been) episode because they didn't want to upset Christians with "witches" celebrating their ( :  holiday (which makes no sense since "Christmas" was a holiday originally stolen from Pagans). I did heard they were going to try for one in 2001, but then 9/11 happened and they axed it. I also read somewhere that the use of the Triquetra on the Book of Shadows may have also originally been because it was "less offending" towards Christians than a pentacle/pentagram would've been. (Please, GAG ME!!) It makes me furious to think about how much they catered to Christianity. None of it made sense, either. They still forced the crappy Christian episodes on the show ("When Bad Warlocks Go Good" was the worst in that respect) - my guess would be to make it look Christian friendly - despite that it makes no sense that they would've been raised as such, seeing as how Grams was clearly Wiccan and she raised them. It's infuriating that they could give us preachy episodes like WBWGG, but refuse to do a Christmas ( Yule) episode.  |
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Post by Assassin Witch on Oct 23, 2008 20:27:18 GMT -5
my guess would be to make it look Christian friendly - despite that it makes no sense that they would've been raised as such, seeing as how Grams was clearly Wiccan and she raised them. But! Look at I've Got You Under My Skin (1x02). The Pastor(?) [I'm Jewish, I don't know these things] clearly knew Piper and Phoebe. And it seemed like Piper cared very much about Christianity and her being a witch. Which we would assume she/they are Christians. But, you bring a great point, Camille, because Grams clearly was Wiccan. And then, Paige was clearly raised Christian - Catholic? - because her adoptive parents obviously went to the church she was left at. That's my impression. *head bang* |
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Post by jate88 on Oct 23, 2008 21:05:27 GMT -5
I was just curious. How much impact did fear of upsetting the christian hell hounds have on Charmed? I'd say a lot, since we never got a real Christmas (or Yule, as it should've been) episode because they didn't want to upset Christians with "witches" celebrating their ( : holiday (which makes no sense since "Christmas" was a holiday originally stolen from Pagans). I did heard they were going to try for one in 2001, but then 9/11 happened and they axed it. I also read somewhere that the use of the Triquetra on the Book of Shadows may have also originally been because it was "less offending" towards Christians than a pentacle/pentagram would've been. (Please, GAG ME!!) It makes me furious to think about how much they catered to Christianity. None of it made sense, either. They still forced the crappy Christian episodes on the show ("When Bad Warlocks Go Good" was the worst in that respect) - my guess would be to make it look Christian friendly - despite that it makes no sense that they would've been raised as such, seeing as how Grams was clearly Wiccan and she raised them. It's infuriating that they could give us preachy episodes like WBWGG, but refuse to do a Christmas ( Yule) episode. Yeah I think they even tried to make a reference to God existing in the episode of season 8 where Leo had to depart. "Vay Con Leos" or something like that. For my fan fic I'm making so that "witches" can be born into any religion but Pagans are more tolerant of them than most other religions and demons don't care much about being politically correct. So the reason these people with super powers came to be known as "witches" is because witches were the only ones that dared to be open about it. Plus wiccans have eight main holidays that celebrate different stages of the Horned Gods life. To wiccans they're all just as important and to only show one of them wouldn't be very wiccan like if you ask me. |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 24, 2008 0:00:47 GMT -5
my guess would be to make it look Christian friendly - despite that it makes no sense that they would've been raised as such, seeing as how Grams was clearly Wiccan and she raised them. But! Look at I've Got You Under My Skin (1x02). The Pastor(?) [I'm Jewish, I don't know these things] clearly knew Piper and Phoebe. And it seemed like Piper cared very much about Christianity and her being a witch. Which we would assume she/they are Christians. But, you bring a great point, Camille, because Grams clearly was Wiccan. And then, Paige was clearly raised Christian - Catholic? - because her adoptive parents obviously went to the church she was left at. That's my impression. *head bang* But that's exactly my point. It doesn't make sense that they would be raised Christian because Grams was 100% Wiccan and even if Victor was the Christian influence, it shouldn't have been near as strong because he left when they were so young. (If anyone, it should've been Prue and not Piper who should've been most affected by early religious leanings, since she would've remembered the most.) But like I said, the only reason I think this religion problem even exists is because they wanted to make the show/concept of witches/witchcraft "Christian friendly," especially in the first season when it was new (the episode you're talking about is literally only the second episode of the series and then WBWGG is 1x18) and people with prejudices against witches/witchcraft would be most likely to "condemn" it, if you know what I mean. |
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heybethann9
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Post by heybethann9 on Oct 24, 2008 4:29:02 GMT -5
Grams was Wiccan but the girls didn't even know she was a witch in the beginning so apparently she did not raise them with that belief. Since she had bound their powers at a very young age, and was planning on stripping them when she died; they knew nothing about it.
They may have attended the church with friends or Andy's family as we know they were friends with him and it was his priest that was injured by the Warlocks.
Why does it matter? We can pick all we want to at things they should or shouldn't have done in the show but it is done and over that is a fact, and we cant change it.
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Post by jate88 on Oct 24, 2008 9:07:23 GMT -5
Yeah but there is a lot more to being a wiccan than just powers. Wicca is a religion just like christianity,Islam,Hinduism, or any other religion out there. Plus witchcraft exists outside of religion and you don't need to be a wiccan to practice it. So if your going into wicca just for the powers, your pretty much wasting your time because there's a lot easier ways to go about practicing withcraft if that's all your interested in.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 25, 2008 3:47:41 GMT -5
I was just curious. How much impact did fear of upsetting the christian hell hounds have on Charmed? A great deal. In fact, I would say that the producers' fear of Christian beliefs may have prevented CHARMED from developing into a more complex and possibly better written series. I would have liked for Burge and Kern to allow the series to present the supernatural world and Wicca in a more realistic or possibly a more complex manner. |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 25, 2008 10:46:17 GMT -5
Grams was Wiccan but the girls didn't even know she was a witch in the beginning so apparently she did not raise them with that belief. Since she had bound their powers at a very young age, and was planning on stripping them when she died; they knew nothing about it. They may have attended the church with friends or Andy's family as we know they were friends with him and it was his priest that was injured by the Warlocks. Why does it matter? We can pick all we want to at things they should or shouldn't have done in the show but it is done and over that is a fact, and we cant change it. First of all, being a witch (in magical terms as defined by Charmed) and being a Wiccan are two different things. Just because she kept her powers from them didn't mean she shouldn't and wouldn't have raised them with basic Wiccan beliefs. Secondly, Father Austin didn't recognize or seem to know Prue when she went to speak with him, so I highly doubt she and her sisters regularly attended church with Andy. (In fact, I have a feeling Grams wouldn't have even wanted them going to church at all.) And thirdly, it matters because it doesn't make sense. Some of us have very strong feelings about plotholes (even in the first three seasons) and the sisters' religion is definitely a plothole. |
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Post by Assassin Witch on Oct 25, 2008 13:38:06 GMT -5
I really don't think Grams would allow the girls to attend Church with others.
So, maybe in 1x02...Piper had went to school with the guy? Because he was pretty young. And the catering thing, too...
Ugh..why am I trying to make sense of this? Why do I constantly make excuses for this show?
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 26, 2008 1:08:54 GMT -5
So, maybe in 1x02...Piper had went to school with the guy? Because he was pretty young. I didn't think anything of it the first time I saw the episode, but when I was finally able to purchase S1 on DVD years later and watch it again, I also noticed how young the pastor in 1x02 was and I thought it didn't make much sense since he clearly knew the sisters (and had for a while as evidenced by him knowing Phoebe had been off to New York and then welcomed her back). Jackie, I like your suggestion that maybe they knew each other from school. That would explain his youth and perhaps even Piper's leanings towards Christianity (if they were good friends, she could've been influenced by him which would also explain why she's more prone to Christianity than Prue or Phoebe ever seemed to be), as well as his history with Piper and her sisters. But I agree, it is sad that we - the fans - have to come up with this stuff, because the show wouldn't. |
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Post by dwiseman7261 on Oct 26, 2008 2:45:34 GMT -5
I don't know of any trouble that "Charmed" had with christian groups or anything like that. Then again, I could be wrong because nowadays, people like to make big deals about things and make the situation a lot bigger than it was.
As I'm sure the rest of you know, the only thing I know regarding this is that the original Phoebe (played in the un-aired pilot by an actress named Lori Rom) did not wish to participate any further with the show because of her faith and beliefs.
And if this is true, I do respect her and what she did, but in the end; it is just entertainment and personally, I think some people take it way too personally.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 26, 2008 4:22:52 GMT -5
I find it ironic, considering that Piper was married in a Wiccan ceremony and Prue was buried in one. On the other hand, Phoebe almost married Cole in a Christian ceremony. And I found that odd. What about Paige? What kind of wedding ceremony did she and Henry have?
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 26, 2008 5:25:20 GMT -5
I find it ironic, considering that Piper was married in a Wiccan ceremony and Prue was buried in one. On the other hand, Phoebe almost married Cole in a Christian ceremony. And I found that odd. What about Paige? What kind of wedding ceremony did she and Henry have? I agree, I always found that strange myself. Phoebe, of all people, seemed like she would've wanted Grams to marry her and Cole via a Wiccan ceremony...and even if she had too many mortal guests, it would seem like she'd still want a Wiccan ceremony. Personally, I think the only reason for Phoebe's Christian wedding was so the writers could do the "white wedding/dark wedding" cr@p to go along with Cole being The Source and Phoebe turning evil.  As for Paige and Henry...I have no idea. I always thought it was kind of on the Christiany side, given the outfit that the woman who officiated it was wearing, but specifically, I don't know. |
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Post by jate88 on Oct 26, 2008 13:49:50 GMT -5
First of all, being a witch (in magical terms as defined by Charmed) and being a Wiccan are two different things. Just because she kept her powers from them didn't mean she shouldn't and wouldn't have raised them with basic Wiccan beliefs. Yeah I wish they would have used Cernunnos, The Green Man,John Barleycorn,Gwyn ap Nudd,Gwythyr,Crieddyled, and Pan of the Goat's Feet. Invoking Crieddyled would have been a better alternative to stopping the avatars than that stupid potion crap. I was just curious. How much impact did fear of upsetting the christian hell hounds have on Charmed? A great deal. In fact, I would say that the producers' fear of Christian beliefs may have prevented CHARMED from developing into a more complex and possibly better written series. I would have liked for Burge and Kern to allow the series to present the supernatural world and Wicca in a more realistic or possibly a more complex manner. Yeah I remember reading in the magical creature post that someone hated how they made it seem like nature wouldn't survive without the help of magical creatures but true wiccans believe in that concept. I think they should have done a better job of showing how the jobs of these magical creatures impacted the sister's lives. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Oct 26, 2008 14:21:17 GMT -5
I was also annoyed by Phoebe and Coles wedding. It was just so not in charecter with Phoebe to have that kind of wedding espically with her not big on the idea of marrying Cole in the beginning. And I felt like she was insulting Grams, Patty, and potiently Prue with the whole she wants nothing magical at her wedding. Phoebe in S1-4 1/2 wouldve wanted Patty espically to be at her wedding and wouldnt have wanted all of those people at her wedding (none of whom we knew ofcourse)
And I wonder what kind of wedding Prue was originally going to have since she was planning her marriage to Rodger a months before the show started up.
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Oct 28, 2024 18:20:51 GMT -5
I knew about this thread, for awhile and was inspired to re-bump it, after rebooted 's thread of Create a "Happy Holidays"/Christmas Charmed Marathon. I wanted to address this thread with sensitivity for BOTH beliefs (not just Christianity because Paganism is its own belief system, as well). I'd say a lot, since we never got a real Christmas (or Yule, as it should've been) episode because they didn't want to upset Christians with "witches" celebrating their ( ) holiday (which makes no sense since "Christmas" was a holiday originally stolen from Pagans). I did heard they were going to try for one in 2001, but then 9/11 happened and they axed it. I also read somewhere that the use of the Triquetra on the Book of Shadows may have also originally been because it was "less offending" towards Christians than a pentacle/pentagram would've been. (Please, GAG ME!!) It makes me furious to think about how much they catered to Christianity. None of it made sense, either. They still forced the crappy Christian episodes on the show ("When Bad Warlocks Go Good" was the worst in that respect) - my guess would be to make it look Christian friendly - despite that it makes no sense that they would've been raised as such, seeing as how Grams was clearly Wiccan and she raised them. It's infuriating that they could give us preachy episodes like WBWGG, but refuse to do a Christmas ( Yule) episode. I became a "Born Again Christian" a little over a year ago, now. I used to be Pagan (or a self proclaimed one & only dabbled a little bit into some, not all, of the witchcraft part of it). To my knowledge & understanding, when I was Pagan, Christmas was never really something I tied to being Pagan. I tied Halloween to Paganism but never Christmas. It wasn't until my return to Christianity (I grew up Christian but never committed myself to Christianity, essentially) that I began hearing how essentially every holiday (Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day, etc.) is ALL Pagan. I never heard about any of this information, during my Pagan years. It wasn't until I became more of a devout Christian that these statements came about. So, I began doing my own research with questions like "first documented Christmas tree" & "what is Yule". To my surprise, I was quite upset at the lack of information provided by sites meant to represent knowledge like the "History" website. It does NOT give you any years like "the 20th century is when X began". It just said "Christmas is a Pagan festival" but didn't give me any information on WHEN it actually began/started & evolved. So, I dug a little deeper and found out that the "first Christmas tree" wasn't a "Christmas tree", at all. It was known as a "Paradise Tree", from "Miracle Plays" performed in the middle ages of Germany. Dec 24th is the Feast of Adam & Eve. So, our first Christmas link is based off of Christianity & NOT Paganism. The bible talks about upholding several feasts & one of them is supposed to be held before the Jewish New Year begins (since they have a different Calendar), then it clicked! The US Calendar is DIFFERENT than the Jewish Calendar. OFC, as Christians, we're NOT Jewish, so this celebration would be held in the fall (as that's when the Jewish New Year begins). But, if I were to uphold it this feast by the non-Jewish Calendar of today, it would be held the way "New Year" approaches, in the US. Not to mention, there IS a winter celebration/feast in the bible aka Hannukah aka "festival of lights". To say, the bible doesn't have a winter feast is false. Going back to the Jewish Calendar, if their celebration is actually in the fall for the US & other guesses fall similarly to when Jesus was born (September/October), it makes sense we celebrate His birth in OUR Calendar to OUR New Year. So, if the Christmas Tree comes from a religious background same as when we celebrate Christmas, in the US, I conclude that Christmas is NOT a Pagan holiday/tradition, at all. The tree is to represent BOTH trees, in the Garden of Eden via the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil and the Tree of Life. I always wondered why we had a Christmas Eve & not even articles supporting the statement "Christmas is Pagan" can explain why there's a "Christmas Eve", but my religious research CAN. Since, the middle ages of Germany celebrate the Feast of Adam & Eve on Dec 24, and the tree represents BOTH trees, in the garden; I conclude that Christmas Eve is to represent man's FALL. With Christmas being about Jesus' birth & He's our savior, Christmas Day represents man's REDEMPTION, as Jesus IS "the Tree of Life" 'cause He is Life. I've read elsewhere, on sites trying to push this whole "Christmas is Pagan" statement ACTUALLY try to explain what the "Christmas Tree" actually means/represents (which the History website failed to do, but I digress) and tried to say Pagans believe trees give life (which is true) therefore these trees represent "life", during Christmas. Yet, it still failed to tell me, WHEN this all started. At least, there's an agreement, somewhere, that the "Christmas Tree" represents "Life". In the Christian faith, it's "the Tree of Life" & man's eternal redemption & life with the Lord, for our sins. As that's what Jesus' birth truly means. Along with the presents accepting God's free gift, for humanity, is eternal life. And, the Christmas ornament baubles is to represent the fruits of said trees, in the garden. I do NOT find ANY of the arguments proclaiming "Christmas is Pagan", all that convincing. Especially, when I attempted to practice Paganism, Christmas was never really a highlight, for that space, when I was in it. It was always a religious holiday. That being said, I have distanced, myself, from Halloween, despite it being an "Eve" for "All Saints Day" meant to be a religious holiday, in remembering the Saints, of the past. Though, this is more Catholic than Christians who are non-Catholic, which I am (a non-Catholic Christian), but I digress. And, "Santa Claus" is to be a representation of a REAL "Saint Nick" via a "Saint of the past".
All that said & done, I do agree the show attempted to cater to the misconception of Christianity 'cause when I returned, I was disheartened by all the lies I was told in what the bible says vs what it ACTUALLY says, when you read it, for yourself. Even about the holidays & why we celebrate them (from BOTH circles via Christians & Pagans), but I'm still learning & processing. I just KNOW that Christmas does NOT come from Pagan tradition. I don't find it a compelling argument, as Pagans typically are "one with nature", and it doesn't make sense for this circle of folks to be cutting down trees & bringing them into their houses. It just doesn't make any sense, to me, but I digress. Going back to the show catering to a misconception of Christianity, I agree. I don't think many people are aware in what TRUE Christianity really is. Again, my shock in what the bible ACTUALLY says vs what people think it ACTUALLY says. As a Christian & an ex Pagan, the show doesn't do a good job with Witchcraft, in general. It's very fantasy. Now, that I have become a Christian, I see more & more Christian messaging undertones, that I never would've spotted, as a Pagan, that this show ACTUALLY represents in doing the right thing vs doing the easy thing. Until you get to the later seasons, but I digress. The early aspects of the show is VERY Christian despite it being stamped with "witches". I hope I responded to this with sensitivity. IK the religion talk can get ugly, but I wanted to share my perspective on this & expand on it a bit more. Enjoy! |
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rebooted
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Post by rebooted on Oct 28, 2024 18:38:06 GMT -5
I was also annoyed by Phoebe and Coles wedding. It was just so not in charecter with Phoebe to have that kind of wedding espically with her not big on the idea of marrying Cole in the beginning. And I felt like she was insulting Grams, Patty, and potiently Prue with the whole she wants nothing magical at her wedding. Phoebe in S1-4 1/2 wouldve wanted Patty espically to be at her wedding and wouldnt have wanted all of those people at her wedding (none of whom we knew ofcourse) And I wonder what kind of wedding Prue was originally going to have since she was planning her marriage to Rodger a months before the show started up. Yeah I agree I never imagined Phoebe to be Bridezilla and would have thought just a small intimate one or one where they just eloped would have been more in character for Phoebe. |
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holiday (which makes no sense since "Christmas" was a holiday originally stolen from Pagans). I did heard they were going to try for one in 2001, but then 9/11 happened and they axed it.
