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Post by marienomad on Oct 12, 2009 2:47:18 GMT -5
I was thinking about Phoebe's vision quest. So, I looked it up on wikipedia. Here's what it said.
A vision quest is a rite of passage in some Native American cultures.
In many Native American groups, the vision quest is a turning point in life taken before puberty to find oneself and the intended spiritual and life direction. When an older child is ready, he or she will go on a personal, spiritual quest alone in the wilderness, often in conjunction with a period of fasting. This usually lasts for a number of days while the child is attuned to the spirit world. Usually, a Guardian animal will come in a vision or dream, and the child's life direction will appear at some point. The child returns to the tribe, and once the child has grown, will pursue that direction in life. After a vision quest, the child may apprentice an adult in the tribe of the shown direction (Medicine Man, boatmaker, etc).
The vision quest may be a part of shamanism, more exactly, the learning and initiation process of the apprentice for achieving the ability for shamanizing, mostly under the guidance of an older shaman.[citation needed]
The vision quest may be said to make the initiated establish contact with a spirit or force. Psychologically, it may have effected hallucinations.[citation needed] See a complex emic and etic approach to shamanism among Eskimo peoples in [1].
The technique may be similar to sensory deprivation methods. It may include long walking on uninhabited, monotonous areas (tundra, inland, mountain); fasting; sleep deprivation; being closed in a small room (e.g. igloo).
So, what did Phoebe experienced? Maybe it's a really advanced form of premonition and that meditation and potion temporarilly enhanced her power. That enabled her to see into a possible timeline, maybe Chris'. Maybe the point of the vision quest was for her to see that Chris is her nephew. However, what did the pregnancy reveal? It could reveal her deep desire to have children sure but it was not a sign for her to get pregnant.
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Post by dylan345 on Oct 12, 2009 11:11:40 GMT -5
I took it as more of a way to reassure her. She was wondering about her future and needed to see that scene in which it was her turn to be a mother. I feel like it was symbolic, even though she didn't take it that way. Didn't she estimate the boys' ages and try to determine when her conception date should be?
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Post by erikamarie on Oct 13, 2009 12:18:23 GMT -5
She didn't or she'ld not be so obsessed with the wish to have a daughter
In the vision Wyatt seemed to be about ten so she'ld understand that the time of her pregnancy was not so close
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 14, 2009 11:35:35 GMT -5
I think Phoebe's vision quest showed exactly what the Angel of Destiny showed them in "Witch Way Now"--fighting evil was no longer their prime destiny; they'd done that when they vanquished the Source. Their new prime destiny was raising and protecting the Twice Blessed Brat [the fact that he was a brat who picked on the world (according to his little brother) showed how badly they did that the first time around].
But naturally, since for PhoeME, it's all about PhoeME, the only thing she could concentrate was on her own children. I'm sure that's part of the reason why Wyatt turned out the way he did.
And since nothing truly happened to change that, I'm more certain than ever that "Forever Charmed" is only Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in "Kill Billie Vol 2" and the only ones who survived after that explosion are Victor, Wyatt and Chris (Leo is still a Leocicle and will be forever)--hence the reason why the Charmed Ones will always be the most powerful witches to ever live--there are now no more female Warren witches to harness the Power of Three. Wyatt and Chris' daughters wouldn't be able to do that.
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Post by marienomad on Oct 30, 2009 8:06:31 GMT -5
I wish that Phoebe would actually think more about that vision as more than a 'I need to get pregnant' message.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 30, 2009 11:00:37 GMT -5
It just shows how very little PhoeME matured during the series that she would interpret that visionquest the way she did. She was much more mature in Season 2 and Season 3 than she ever was in the rest of the series. Agreeing to become Cole's Queen of the Underworld stunted her maturity growth. Had she been able to admit that that was *her* fault and not Cole's she would've progressed internally from the experience rather than regress the way she did. Meeting Cole was the worst thing that ever happened to either of them.
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Post by ljones on Oct 30, 2009 14:23:04 GMT -5
Love does that to you, Esmeralda. Look at Piper and Leo.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 30, 2009 15:24:21 GMT -5
Amen!
Let's say love does that to you when Brad Kern is directing your destiny...
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Post by charmedfan10years on Nov 18, 2009 12:30:11 GMT -5
I can actually understand why Phoebe interpreted the vision the way she did. She was SO burned out on relationships and love because of Cole that when she had the vision she only focused on her pregnancy. I think that on the show they tried to show us that she was obsessed and desperate with the idea. That's why she lost her powers. But the funny thing is that I can also understand why she would abuse her empath abilities to try and find her soulmate. No, it wasn't right, but after all her personal loss and heartache with Cole, I don't think it was surprising to anyone. And the vision quest only showed a few OBVIOUS things to her. Like how Chris was Wyatt's brother, Paige was going to take over magic school, and that she (Phoebe) would finally move on with her life and have her own family. Phoebe tried way too hard to find love in seasons 6 and 7 and early season 8. But it's because they tarnished her character in having her go through hell with Cole so much. After the cole damage was done, it would have been extremely unbelievable for her to waltz right into another relationship that turned out perfectly. The Jason fiasco was so obvious a rebound for her, followed by her quest to find her soulmate with empath abilities, followed by just trying to find her way. Phoebe is the kind of person that can't live without love, but unfortunately looking for it instead of "letting it find you" is what screwed her character again and again.
Her visions in season 7 with the avatars are much more relaxed and not as highstrung, but even then she is still OCD about it. Bless her heart. But jumping back to the cole thing, as much as I enjoyed season 4, it took Phoebe waay too far. It's a miracle she ever remarried again. Had it not been for an actual cupid, she probably never would have. Only a cupid could understand her the way she needed to be.
Sorry I rambled, but yes I do agree that it was JUST a vision quest and NOT a glimpse of the future, although she thought it was.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 18, 2009 23:58:11 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you said, but, oh, she should've lost her premonitions, too, for the horrible way she misused them by forcing them, just like she was trying to force love. Although I think I'd agree with you more if it was truly love that she was looking for and not her daughter's sperm donor, since finding and having her daughter seemed a lot more important to her than finding love. That was the part that disgusted me. Whenever I think of Phoebe and love, I always think of the old Johnny Lee song:
I've spent a lifetime lookin' for you.
Single bars and good-time lovers were never true.
Playin' the fool's game. hoping to win.
And telling those sweet lies and losing again!
I was
Looking For Love in all the wrong places.
Looking For Love in too many faces.
Searching their eyes,
Looking for traces
Of what
I'm dreaming of.
Hoping to find a friend and a lover,
I'll bless the day I discover
Another heart,
Looking for Love!
Well, I was alone then, no love in sight.
And I did everything I could to get me through the night.
Don't know where it started or where it might end.
I turned to a stranger, and just like a friend,
I was
Looking for Love in all the wrong places.
Looking for Love in too many faces.
Searching their eyes
Looking for traces
Of what
I'm dreaming of.
Hoping to find a friend and a lover,
I'll bless the day I discover
Another heart,
Looking for love!
(Musical interlude)
Well, you came knockin' at my heart's door.
You're everything I've been looking for.
No more
Looking for Love in all the wrong places.
Looking for Love in too many faces.
Searching their eyes,
Looking for traces
Of what
I'm dreaming of.
Now that I've found a friend and a lover.
I bless the day I discovered
You,
Oh, you
Looking for Love!
Much as her search disgusted me and although I truly don't think he was, I do hope that's what Phoebe found when she found Coop, because I know she didn't find it with any of her other slampieces. |
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Post by marienomad on Nov 20, 2009 4:12:23 GMT -5
I hope she loves him because of who he is, not because he's easy.
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Post by charmedfan10years on Nov 24, 2009 17:54:56 GMT -5
She did take it incredibly far. I completely forgot about her going to the sperm donors! I'm watching Season 7 now and I know that episode is coming up soon. But as I said she was OBSESSED with the pregnancy because she was trying to jump from point A to point Z without any of the "complications" of a real relationship.
I think the reason why Phoebe and Coop work is because he was able to show her how stubborn and stupid she was being about love. Also, Phoebe having the independence of getting her own place was the right step for her character, and it is more believable that she grew up a lot during season 8 and perhaps was READY to actually have a stable relationship.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 27, 2009 13:00:46 GMT -5
Oops! Hope you didn't misunderstand what I wrote--didn't mean to mislead you.
She never went so far as to go to a sperm bank (thank God!), but I never saw her looking for love, just looking for her daughter's father, so all she was really looking for was her daughter's father's sperm, which I found totally disgusting.
ETA: Now that I think about it, I think I would've preferred her going to a sperm bank and having no idea who the father was--it would not be using the guys the way she did.
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Post by charmedfan10years on Nov 27, 2009 18:46:53 GMT -5
Oops! Hope you didn't misunderstand what I wrote--didn't mean to mislead you. She never went so far as to go to a sperm bank (thank God!), but I never saw her looking for love, just looking for her daughter's father, so all she was really looking for was her daughter's father's sperm, which I found totally disgusting. ETA: Now that I think about it, I think I would've preferred her going to a sperm bank and having no idea who the father was--it would not be using the guys the way she did. Actually, she did visit a sperm bank LOL. It was in a season 8 episode entitled "The Lost Picture Show." You reminded me of it when you mentioned a sperm bank in your other post, which is why I had that response  . It's really funny. You should check it out if you haven't seen it! Piper and Leo switch bodies because of a magical marriage counselor while Phoebe is on her "mission" to find the father of her child. I think it's a turning point for her character. It's the episode where she finally learns her lesson and IMO matures a lot over the issue. I'll share some of the scenes with you from a script I found online (I'm only posting Phoebe's scenes): |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 28, 2009 11:26:39 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that; I enjoyed it. Now if only she'd truly believed that, my respect for her might have returned. But as soon as she got the premonition re: Dex and started thinking her daughter's father again, nope. Another one of many reasons why I wish all three had died in Something Wicca That Way Goes and that had been the series finale--I still would've had respect for Phoebe and could love my original favorite sister again. Although I truly wish it had ended with "Witch Way Now?" because then I never would've lost it for any of the three. |
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Post by marienomad on Nov 29, 2009 5:04:04 GMT -5
If only Phoebe had just tried to think about her life in Season Eight rather than go hump a Dex and then a Cupid. Ugh. I wanted to see Phoebe sitting down and trying to think about what she should do with her new life and weather or not that she was doing the right thing. Nope, she just skipped off after Dex and somehow got back her old columnist job. I think that she got a rush at seeing everyone mourning her. I didn't see any guilt when she was talking to grieving her coworkers.
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. It's really funny. You should check it out if you haven't seen it! Piper and Leo switch bodies because of a magical marriage counselor while Phoebe is on her "mission" to find the father of her child. I think it's a turning point for her character. It's the episode where she finally learns her lesson and IMO matures a lot over the issue.