Sigmund, An Idiot?

[Quadquetra]

Ok so we all remember Sigmund right? Well remember just before Gideon killed him, he told Gideon that he was gonna tell the girls of their plans since he realized that it may have been this attempt on his life that turned him. Well I just feel he was stupid to tell Gideon since he knew what Gideon was capable of. So what do you guys think? And also had Sigmund succeeded and told the Charmed Ones, how do you think the rest of the season would have played out?

[StoryGirl83]

I agree, it certainly wasn't smart to tell Gideon, though perhaps he thought that Gideon really wasn't as far gone as he actually was and that Gideon would listen to reason. Still, if was going to do that, he should have done so carefully, and found out if Gideon could be reasoned with and when he knew Gideon could have he should have found a way to drop the subject or (since he was already being deceptive) pretended to agree with Gideon.

If he had managed to tell them, there is always the chance they wouldn't have believed him. After all, this is Leo's mentor, whom he trusts. If they did believe Sigmund, that would certainly alter the story.

At this point, they might still trust most elders, so they might see if the elders could stop Gideon.

On the other hand, they might feel that the elders have proven too week to help (as seen in "Oh My Goddess" and in "Witches In Tights"), so they try to find a way to stop Gideon themselves. Maybe they look for a way to strip him of his elder powers. On the other hand . . . what elder powers. Until Leo killed him, did we have any indication that elders had any nonpasive powers? Maybe we would have never had that part of them.

Most likely they would have found a way to protect Wyatt, send Chris back home, and never have to deal with any mirror world.

[Esmeralda]

Dec 21, 2009 21:27:36 GMT -5 Quadquetra said:

Ok so we all remember Sigmund right? Well remember just before Gideon killed him, he told Gideon that he was gonna tell the girls of their plans since he realized that it may have been this attempt on his life that turned him. Well I just feel he was stupid to tell Gideon since he knew what Gideon was capable of. So what do you guys think?

It's not Sigmund who's the idiot--it's Kern and his crack monkeys who wrote him that way--I remember thinking so at the time I was watching the episode. No wonder that it was during this season that I stopped thinking of the Elders as Elders and started thinking of them all as idiots. And none of them ever made me think otherwise, except possibly Sandra.

Dec 21, 2009 23:33:13 GMT -5 StoryGirl83 said:

Most likely they would have found a way to protect Wyatt, send Chris back home, and never have to deal with any mirror world.

Don't I wish...ESPECIALLY that part about sending Chris back home...should've done that as soon as they knew about Wyatt turning evil in the future, LONG before he was born, since he was no longer needed and they now knew that he wasn't truly a whitelighter and doing them much more harm than good.

[erikamarie]

Sigmund is not an idiot: he's blind faith in Gideon, he never questioned his orders and when he realized that the "greater good" can not be achieved by killing a child, he faithfully communicated his disagreement.How could he imagine that Elder could kill an innocent person just to shut him up?

[ghostrider]

I admit that I am no expert on the later seasons of Charmed, but from what I do recall, I think the above comment is a very good assessment.

[Deleted]

Why couldn't Sigmund's spirit go warn the sisters?  Gideon destroyed his mortal body, yes, but what about his spirit.

It's amazing that Kern and his writers never thought these things through.

[adzpower]

He was not an idiot, he was a moron. Anyone who wants to murder a child for no actual reason is not someone you can reason with.

[Esmeralda]

No, I don't think he was a moron. I think it's like what Erikamarie said:

Dec 28, 2009 10:38:54 GMT -5 erikamarie said:

Sigmund is not an idiot: he's blind faith in Gideon, he never questioned his orders and when he realized that the "greater good" can not be achieved by killing a child, he faithfully communicated his disagreement.How could he imagine that Elder could kill an innocent person just to shut him up?

It's the same reason why the Nazis killed all of those Jews - Hitler had convinced them that that was best for the world. Gideon did the same thing to Sigmund. And all of the Nazis weren't idiots or morons, just misled.

[Sadrick]

I agree with StoryGirl83's explanation. Sigmund must have been under the impression that Gideon could still be reasoned with. They weren't just fellow employees or conspirators, both of them trusted and respected the other. Sigmund must not have anticipated that his friend would resort to murder in order to conceal his ambitions. Of course, there's no telling how the sisters or Leo would have reacted if he had gotten to them and were informed of Gideon's intentions. They're not exactly the "ask questions first, shoot later" type when it comes to family. Leo was already becoming mentally unstable at the beginning of the season with his paranoia over Chris's enigmatic actions. The discovery of someone wishing to turn his son only amplified those emotions further. Could you imagine how he would have reacted to learning about his mentor's desire to see his son dead? I don't believe he would show too much restraint with his son's possible murderer, regardless of whether Chris stayed alive or not. But then that presents another kettle of fish on who would come out alive if they were to confront each other. The reason Gideon was left to the mercy of Leo is because he was preemptively stabbed (after already being injured once by the sisters' spell and Wyatt telekinetically orbing his knife) and weakened while his guard was down. Without those handicaps, it may have been a far more difficult fight. One which I think Gideon would have a good chance of winning since he was considered to be one of the most powerful Elders. Despite his status, Leo was still pretty green(he had only taken the position a year ago) and the only advantage he has is rage, which could easily backfire on him since it also clouds his senses.

Truthfully, I can't fault Gideon for his suspicions about Wyatt. He's the twice-blessed spawn of a Whitelighter and Charmed One. He's been displaying unnaturally powerful abilities when he was just a fetus inside the womb. Remember when he casually swapped the powers of those supposedly legendary witches and inserted them into Leo? Or how about conjuring up fire breathing dragons on a simple whim? There was actually a similar child character introduced in Supernatural during S5 of all things, Jesse Turner. He was a half-breed child as well, or more specifically, a cambion (half-breeds on that show are extremely rare and when they do appear, they're considered abominations, not miracles). He could teleport anywhere he wanted to with just a thought, had reality warping capabilities, and was deemed to be such a critical threat that he could, and I quote, "destroy the Host of Heaven" which translates to destroying all Angels. He was even labeled the "Antichrist" because of his incredible power and intended connections to Lucifer and the Apocalypse. He turned a powerful angel like Castiel into a toy with a mere thought, similar to Wyatt downsizing his mother and father to miniature versions of themselves in S7.  Wyatt is in a similar boat in that he can easily overpower entities that were deemed very strong while bending the world to whatever he desires.

So tell me - what happens if you agitate or make an enemy out of one of these kids? What's supposed to be the contingency plan for a human hydrogen bomb going darkside? Wyatt is considered so powerful that he gave Chris an inferiority complex with resentment issues. The Charmed Ones at least had each other to balance themselves out whenever one of them turned evil. Chris's generation has no such fortune. He's clearly weaker than his older brother and there's nothing that could stand up to Wyatt sans the Hollow or maybe the deity essence that the Elders have stashed up in the Upper Regions. Both of which are incredibly dangerous to unleash and could result in the world being destroyed. 

Gideon's methods may have been extreme, but I think he had a point about Wyatt being too powerful and capricious to go unnoticed. And the sisters aren't exactly the best role models to be instilling morality or values into children.  

[Esmeralda]

Jul 30, 2015 11:58:28 GMT -5 Sadrick said:

I agree with StoryGirl83's explanation. Sigmund must have been under the impression that Gideon could still be reasoned with. They weren't just fellow employees or conspirators, both of them trusted and respected the other. Sigmund must not have anticipated that his friend would resort to murder in order to conceal his ambitions. Of course, there's no telling how the sisters or Leo would have reacted if he had gotten to them and were informed of Gideon's intentions. They're not exactly the "ask questions first, shoot later" type when it comes to family. Leo was already becoming mentally unstable at the beginning of the season with his paranoia over Chris's enigmatic actions. The discovery of someone wishing to turn his son only amplified those emotions further. Could you imagine how he would have reacted to learning about his mentor's desire to see his son dead? I don't believe he would show too much restraint with his son's possible murderer, regardless of whether Chris stayed alive or not. But then that presents another kettle of fish on who would come out alive if they were to confront each other. The reason Gideon was left to the mercy of Leo is because he was preemptively stabbed (after already being injured once by the sisters' spell and Wyatt telekinetically orbing his knife) and weakened while his guard was down. Without those handicaps, it may have been a far more difficult fight. One which I think Gideon would have a good chance of winning since he was considered to be one of the most powerful Elders. Despite his status, Leo was still pretty green(he had only taken the position a year ago) and the only advantage he has is rage, which could easily backfire on him since it also clouds his senses.

Truthfully, I can't fault Gideon for his suspicions about Wyatt. He's the twice-blessed spawn of a Whitelighter and Charmed One. He's been displaying unnaturally powerful abilities when he was just a fetus inside the womb. Remember when he casually swapped the powers of those supposedly legendary witches and inserted them into Leo? Or how about conjuring up fire breathing dragons on a simple whim? There was actually a similar child character introduced in Supernatural during S5 of all things, Jesse Turner. He was a half-breed child as well, or more specifically, a cambion (half-breeds on that show are extremely rare and when they do appear, they're considered abominations, not miracles). He could teleport anywhere he wanted to with just a thought, had reality warping capabilities, and was deemed to be such a critical threat that he could, and I quote, "destroy the Host of Heaven" which translates to destroying all Angels. He was even labeled the "Antichrist" because of his incredible power and intended connections to Lucifer and the Apocalypse. He turned a powerful angel like Castiel into a toy with a mere thought, similar to Wyatt downsizing his mother and father to miniature versions of themselves in S7.  Wyatt is in a similar boat in that he can easily overpower entities that were deemed very strong while bending the world to whatever he desires.

So tell me - what happens if you agitate or make an enemy out of one of these kids? What's supposed to be the contingency plan for a human hydrogen bomb going darkside? Wyatt is considered so powerful that he gave Chris an inferiority complex with resentment issues. The Charmed Ones at least had each other to balance themselves out whenever one of them turned evil. Chris's generation has no such fortune. He's clearly weaker than his older brother and there's nothing that could stand up to Wyatt sans the Hollow or maybe the deity essence that the Elders have stashed up in the Upper Regions. Both of which are incredibly dangerous to unleash and could result in the world being destroyed. 

Gideon's methods may have been extreme, but I think he had a point about Wyatt being too powerful and capricious to go unnoticed. And the sisters aren't exactly the best role models to be instilling morality or values into children.  

EXTREMELY good analysis, Sadrick; I agree with most of it. I don't like how Supernatural handled half-breeds - I've always believed that nurture can overcome nature - but as you pointed out, with Piper as a mother and Phoebe and Paige as aunts, it's highly unlikely that Wyatt would've been taught much morals, outside of "If it feels good, do it" or "Ends Justify the Means".. .

I've always believed that them refusing to believe their precious baby boy could do any harm had just as much to do with Chris' original future as anything else, one of many reasons why I don't think Chris did anything to prevent Wyatt from turning evil - he never convinced Piper that the best way of doing that would be permanently stripping all of Wyatt's powers. That would've taken care of Chris' inferiority complex and also prevent his future from happening letting him fade into never-never-land as should've happened during "Forget-Me-Not", not "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" with us never finding out who he truly was.

This was just one of many, many times when I found the Charmed Ones to be in the wrong (when they stopped thinking that the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing and instead started thinking that ends justify the means) and should've had their own powers permenently stripped - they didn't deserve to be the Charmed Ones...

[Melinda Halliwell]

Jul 30, 2015 12:36:53 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

EXTREMELY good analysis, Sadrick; I agree with most of it. I don't like how Supernatural handled half-breeds - I've always believed that nurture can overcome nature - but as you pointed out, with Piper as a mother and Phoebe and Paige as aunts, it's highly unlikely that Wyatt would've been taught much morals, outside of "If it feels good, do it" or "Ends Justify the Means".. .

I've always believed that them refusing to believe their precious baby boy could do any harm had just as much to do with Chris' original future as anything else, one of many reasons why I don't think Chris did anything to prevent Wyatt from turning evil - he never convinced Piper that the best way of doing that would be permanently stripping all of Wyatt's powers. That would've taken care of Chris' inferiority complex and also prevent his future from happening letting him fade into never-never-land as should've happened during "Forget-Me-Not", not "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" with us never finding out who he truly was.

This was just one of many, many times when I found the Charmed Ones to be in the wrong (when they stopped thinking that the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing and instead started thinking that ends justify the means) and should've had their own powers permenently stripped - they didn't deserve to be the Charmed Ones...

Exactly. Had the charmed ones bound Wyatt's powers the second he exposed them unintentionally then Gideon wouldn't have viewed him as a threat obviously.

I think after the dragon incident or sooner if necessary had the tribunal been introduced earlier then they should've either made the charmed ones bind Wyatt's powers if they hadn't have done so themselves already or bounded Wyatt's powers themselves arguing the reasons why because they couldn't trust the sisters to teach him the right way magic wise to stop future risks altogether etc 'cause of what happened already although some people mightn't agree with me 'cause of free will and what not.

[Sadrick]

Jul 30, 2015 12:36:53 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Jul 30, 2015 11:58:28 GMT -5 Sadrick said:

I agree with StoryGirl83's explanation. Sigmund must have been under the impression that Gideon could still be reasoned with. They weren't just fellow employees or conspirators, both of them trusted and respected the other. Sigmund must not have anticipated that his friend would resort to murder in order to conceal his ambitions. Of course, there's no telling how the sisters or Leo would have reacted if he had gotten to them and were informed of Gideon's intentions. They're not exactly the "ask questions first, shoot later" type when it comes to family. Leo was already becoming mentally unstable at the beginning of the season with his paranoia over Chris's enigmatic actions. The discovery of someone wishing to turn his son only amplified those emotions further. Could you imagine how he would have reacted to learning about his mentor's desire to see his son dead? I don't believe he would show too much restraint with his son's possible murderer, regardless of whether Chris stayed alive or not. But then that presents another kettle of fish on who would come out alive if they were to confront each other. The reason Gideon was left to the mercy of Leo is because he was preemptively stabbed (after already being injured once by the sisters' spell and Wyatt telekinetically orbing his knife) and weakened while his guard was down. Without those handicaps, it may have been a far more difficult fight. One which I think Gideon would have a good chance of winning since he was considered to be one of the most powerful Elders. Despite his status, Leo was still pretty green(he had only taken the position a year ago) and the only advantage he has is rage, which could easily backfire on him since it also clouds his senses.

Truthfully, I can't fault Gideon for his suspicions about Wyatt. He's the twice-blessed spawn of a Whitelighter and Charmed One. He's been displaying unnaturally powerful abilities when he was just a fetus inside the womb. Remember when he casually swapped the powers of those supposedly legendary witches and inserted them into Leo? Or how about conjuring up fire breathing dragons on a simple whim? There was actually a similar child character introduced in Supernatural during S5 of all things, Jesse Turner. He was a half-breed child as well, or more specifically, a cambion (half-breeds on that show are extremely rare and when they do appear, they're considered abominations, not miracles). He could teleport anywhere he wanted to with just a thought, had reality warping capabilities, and was deemed to be such a critical threat that he could, and I quote, "destroy the Host of Heaven" which translates to destroying all Angels. He was even labeled the "Antichrist" because of his incredible power and intended connections to Lucifer and the Apocalypse. He turned a powerful angel like Castiel into a toy with a mere thought, similar to Wyatt downsizing his mother and father to miniature versions of themselves in S7.  Wyatt is in a similar boat in that he can easily overpower entities that were deemed very strong while bending the world to whatever he desires.

So tell me - what happens if you agitate or make an enemy out of one of these kids? What's supposed to be the contingency plan for a human hydrogen bomb going darkside? Wyatt is considered so powerful that he gave Chris an inferiority complex with resentment issues. The Charmed Ones at least had each other to balance themselves out whenever one of them turned evil. Chris's generation has no such fortune. He's clearly weaker than his older brother and there's nothing that could stand up to Wyatt sans the Hollow or maybe the deity essence that the Elders have stashed up in the Upper Regions. Both of which are incredibly dangerous to unleash and could result in the world being destroyed. 

Gideon's methods may have been extreme, but I think he had a point about Wyatt being too powerful and capricious to go unnoticed. And the sisters aren't exactly the best role models to be instilling morality or values into children.  

EXTREMELY good analysis, Sadrick; I agree with most of it. I don't like how Supernatural handled half-breeds - I've always believed that nurture can overcome nature - but as you pointed out, with Piper as a mother and Phoebe and Paige as aunts, it's highly unlikely that Wyatt would've been taught much morals, outside of "If it feels good, do it" or "Ends Justify the Means".. .

I've always believed that them refusing to believe their precious baby boy could do any harm had just as much to do with Chris' original future as anything else, one of many reasons why I don't think Chris did anything to prevent Wyatt from turning evil - he never convinced Piper that the best way of doing that would be permanently stripping all of Wyatt's powers. That would've taken care of Chris' inferiority complex and also prevent his future from happening letting him fade into never-never-land as should've happened during "Forget-Me-Not", not "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" with us never finding out who he truly was.

This was just one of many, many times when I found the Charmed Ones to be in the wrong (when they stopped thinking that the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing and instead started thinking that ends justify the means) and should've had their own powers permenently stripped - they didn't deserve to be the Charmed Ones...

In their own universe, the Charmed Ones are, by and large, one of the most powerful forces to ever exist. They're used to getting what they want and have continually exploited their powers for self-gratification. Complacency is partly what enabled the sisters to become who they are. They suffer practically no consequences for their actions. Chris's idea of "fixing the issue" was to attack the one harvesting that deep rooted seed of apathy, indulgence, selfishness, and darkness. Stripping Wyatt of his powers would remove those vicious weapons and possibly put him off the demonic radar (effectively granting him the "normal life" Piper has sought for so long). However, it's as you said, the one sowing those seeds is Piper. It doesn't address his mother instilling hedonistic selfishness as the moral outlook that he should take nor help Chris to actually overcome his resentment instead of putting it to the side because his brother's mojo is gone. Of course, that's a form of character development which I don't expect the writers to be capable of pulling off by this point. Wyatt's upbringing and personality should still be a cause for concern, even without his exaggerated powers or status as the twice-blessed brat because it fosters a culture of acceptability for the behaviour Piper and the sisters exhibited in later years.

I agree. The sisters should have went ahead and accepted the Angel of Destiny's offer. They had fulfilled their wiccan duties and there was no incentive to continue it when they've become so weary of the job that the only things keeping them involved is Paige's insistence (who could hardly be called unbiased since she was still fairly new at it and had not experienced all of the tragedies that Piper and Phoebe did) and the "happy" feeling they got which clouded their awareness of the consequences and responsibilities that come with being a Charmed One. If Paige wanted to retain her status as a witch and/or Whitelighter (not a Charmed One) then maybe they could have worked something out with the Angel of Destiny.

I can't say that I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of the sisters trying to hold onto an absolute moralistic philosophy. They haven't really been exposed to the same trials that the Winchester brothers have that would challenge their outlook (the closest they've come to that kind of murkiness is Dr Williamson, choosing between their sister and the world, Cole, Rick, and the Jenkins Sisters). Then again, Supernatural is so deeply entrenched in shades of grey with its characters, lore, concepts, scenarios, and plotlines that it would be nigh impossible for you to have not sullied your hands at one point or another. Granted, the Charmed universe isn't like that, but that's mostly because of the writers and premise. With Charmed, they try to make it more black and white while having the sisters and their children defile their own tenets without open admittance of it.   

[lilchi7212]

Jul 30, 2015 14:56:08 GMT -5 Melinda Halliwell said:

Jul 30, 2015 12:36:53 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

EXTREMELY good analysis, Sadrick; I agree with most of it. I don't like how Supernatural handled half-breeds - I've always believed that nurture can overcome nature - but as you pointed out, with Piper as a mother and Phoebe and Paige as aunts, it's highly unlikely that Wyatt would've been taught much morals, outside of "If it feels good, do it" or "Ends Justify the Means".. .

I've always believed that them refusing to believe their precious baby boy could do any harm had just as much to do with Chris' original future as anything else, one of many reasons why I don't think Chris did anything to prevent Wyatt from turning evil - he never convinced Piper that the best way of doing that would be permanently stripping all of Wyatt's powers. That would've taken care of Chris' inferiority complex and also prevent his future from happening letting him fade into never-never-land as should've happened during "Forget-Me-Not", not "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" with us never finding out who he truly was.

This was just one of many, many times when I found the Charmed Ones to be in the wrong (when they stopped thinking that the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing and instead started thinking that ends justify the means) and should've had their own powers permenently stripped - they didn't deserve to be the Charmed Ones...

Exactly. Had the charmed ones bound Wyatt's powers the second he exposed them unintentionally then Gideon wouldn't have viewed him as a threat obviously.

I think after the dragon incident or sooner if necessary had the tribunal been introduced earlier then they should've either made the charmed ones bind Wyatt's powers if they hadn't have done so themselves already or bounded Wyatt's powers themselves arguing the reasons why because they couldn't trust the sisters to teach him the right way magic wise to stop future risks altogether etc 'cause of what happened already although some people mightn't agree with me 'cause of free will and what not.

No such thing as free will. 

[lilchi7212]

Jul 30, 2015 16:10:48 GMT -5 Sadrick said:

Jul 30, 2015 12:36:53 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

EXTREMELY good analysis, Sadrick; I agree with most of it. I don't like how Supernatural handled half-breeds - I've always believed that nurture can overcome nature - but as you pointed out, with Piper as a mother and Phoebe and Paige as aunts, it's highly unlikely that Wyatt would've been taught much morals, outside of "If it feels good, do it" or "Ends Justify the Means".. .

I've always believed that them refusing to believe their precious baby boy could do any harm had just as much to do with Chris' original future as anything else, one of many reasons why I don't think Chris did anything to prevent Wyatt from turning evil - he never convinced Piper that the best way of doing that would be permanently stripping all of Wyatt's powers. That would've taken care of Chris' inferiority complex and also prevent his future from happening letting him fade into never-never-land as should've happened during "Forget-Me-Not", not "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" with us never finding out who he truly was.

This was just one of many, many times when I found the Charmed Ones to be in the wrong (when they stopped thinking that the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing and instead started thinking that ends justify the means) and should've had their own powers permenently stripped - they didn't deserve to be the Charmed Ones...

In their own universe, the Charmed Ones are, by and large, one of the most powerful forces to ever exist. They're used to getting what they want and have continually exploited their powers for self-gratification. Complacency is partly what enabled the sisters to become who they are. They suffer practically no consequences for their actions. Chris's idea of "fixing the issue" was to attack the one harvesting that deep rooted seed of apathy, indulgence, selfishness, and darkness. Stripping Wyatt of his powers would remove those vicious weapons and possibly put him off the demonic radar (effectively granting him the "normal life" Piper has sought for so long). However, it's as you said, the one sowing those seeds is Piper. It doesn't address his mother instilling hedonistic selfishness as the moral outlook that he should take nor help Chris to actually overcome his resentment instead of putting it to the side because his brother's mojo is gone. Of course, that's a form of character development which I don't expect the writers to be capable of pulling off by this point. Wyatt's upbringing and personality should still be a cause for concern, even without his exaggerated powers or status as the twice-blessed brat because it fosters a culture of acceptability for the behaviour Piper and the sisters exhibited in later years.

I agree. The sisters should have went ahead and accepted the Angel of Destiny's offer. They had fulfilled their wiccan duties and there was no incentive to continue it when they've become so weary of the job that the only things keeping them involved is Paige's insistence (who could hardly be called unbiased since she was still fairly new at it and had not experienced all of the tragedies that Piper and Phoebe did) and the "happy" feeling they got which clouded their awareness of the consequences and responsibilities that come with being a Charmed One. If Paige wanted to retain her status as a witch and/or Whitelighter (not a Charmed One) then maybe they could have worked something out with the Angel of Destiny.

I can't say that I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of the sisters trying to hold onto an absolute moralistic philosophy. They haven't really been exposed to the same trials that the Winchester brothers have that would challenge their outlook (the closest they've come to that kind of murkiness is Dr Williamson, choosing between their sister and the world, Cole, Rick, and the Jenkins Sisters). Then again, Supernatural is so deeply entrenched in shades of grey with its characters, lore, concepts, scenarios, and plotlines that it would be nigh impossible for you to have not sullied your hands at one point or another. Granted, the Charmed universe isn't like that, but that's mostly because of the writers and premise. With Charmed, they try to make it more black and white while having the sisters and their children defile their own tenets without open admittance of it.   

The Charmed ones seemed to become spoiled or entitled or something along those lines in later seasons.

[Deleted]

My issue is not that Gideon was worried about Wyatt. 

My issue was how he handled it.  Why didn't he approach the sisters and openly express his worries.  Given the dragon incident, they might have listened to him. 

Instead, he throws away everything he ever worked for and believed in.  He partners up with demons, all for the "greater good".   His actions made no sense at all. 

[Esmeralda]

Jul 30, 2015 16:35:24 GMT -5 lilchi7212 said:

Jul 30, 2015 16:10:48 GMT -5 Sadrick said:

In their own universe, the Charmed Ones are, by and large, one of the most powerful forces to ever exist. They're used to getting what they want and have continually exploited their powers for self-gratification. Complacency is partly what enabled the sisters to become who they are. They suffer practically no consequences for their actions. Chris's idea of "fixing the issue" was to attack the one harvesting that deep rooted seed of apathy, indulgence, selfishness, and darkness. Stripping Wyatt of his powers would remove those vicious weapons and possibly put him off the demonic radar (effectively granting him the "normal life" Piper has sought for so long). However, it's as you said, the one sowing those seeds is Piper. It doesn't address his mother instilling hedonistic selfishness as the moral outlook that he should take nor help Chris to actually overcome his resentment instead of putting it to the side because his brother's mojo is gone. Of course, that's a form of character development which I don't expect the writers to be capable of pulling off by this point. Wyatt's upbringing and personality should still be a cause for concern, even without his exaggerated powers or status as the twice-blessed brat because it fosters a culture of acceptability for the behaviour Piper and the sisters exhibited in later years.

I agree. The sisters should have went ahead and accepted the Angel of Destiny's offer. They had fulfilled their wiccan duties and there was no incentive to continue it when they've become so weary of the job that the only things keeping them involved is Paige's insistence (who could hardly be called unbiased since she was still fairly new at it and had not experienced all of the tragedies that Piper and Phoebe did) and the "happy" feeling they got which clouded their awareness of the consequences and responsibilities that come with being a Charmed One. If Paige wanted to retain her status as a witch and/or Whitelighter (not a Charmed One) then maybe they could have worked something out with the Angel of Destiny.

I can't say that I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of the sisters trying to hold onto an absolute moralistic philosophy. They haven't really been exposed to the same trials that the Winchester brothers have that would challenge their outlook (the closest they've come to that kind of murkiness is Dr Williamson, choosing between their sister and the world, Cole, Rick, and the Jenkins Sisters). Then again, Supernatural is so deeply entrenched in shades of grey with its characters, lore, concepts, scenarios, and plotlines that it would be nigh impossible for you to have not sullied your hands at one point or another. Granted, the Charmed universe isn't like that, but that's mostly because of the writers and premise. With Charmed, they try to make it more black and white while having the sisters and their children defile their own tenets without open admittance of it.   

The Charmed ones seemed to become spoiled or entitled or something along those lines in later seasons.

That happened when Brad Kern took over. Him and his obvious belief that ends justify the means as compared to the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing. Comparing the sisters in "Morality Bites" as compared to "Valhalley of the Dolls" or "Hyde School Reunion" simply makes me want to shudder in horror.

I can guarantee you that if the second set was asked the same question about who to save from a burning building, it would be the sister, the husband, the son over everyone else. Had it been those sisters in "Apocalypse Not", it would've been "Apocalypse RIGHT NOW!" Hence the reason why they didn't deserve to keep their powers or to live sappily ever after.

[lilchi7212]

Jul 30, 2015 17:06:55 GMT -5 @tim66 said:

My issue is not that Gideon was worried about Wyatt. 

My issue was how he handled it.  Why didn't he approach the sisters and openly express his worries.  Given the dragon incident, they might have listened to him. 

Instead, he throws away everything he ever worked for and believed in.  He partners up with demons, all for the "greater good".   His actions made no sense at all. 

Would the Charmed Ones believe him if he told them of his concerns with Wyatt since they couldn't believe what Chris said to them that Wyatt was evil in his future?

[Deleted]

Would the Charmed Ones believe him if he told them of his concerns with Wyatt since they couldn't believe what Chris said to them that Wyatt was evil in his future?

Hard to say, but, blast it, he didn't even try!

[erikamarie]

Gideon wasn't able to think a so simple solution as to talk with Leo and Piper: I don't remember when and who but I am sure that an Elder told Leo that they became estranged from humanity and Leo's bond with his family was precious for them, to understand people's feelings

Nevertheless, the solution wasn't so complex

Wyatt was the prophesied son of the magic, nobody could have gone against the prophecy canceling his magic, as the Cleaners tried
And to bind his powers wasn't a solution, the Charmed One knew very well how hard was to learn how to handle powers as adults

If Leo, an Elder, had been allowed to live with his family, having as purpose to care, love and train his child, Gideon would be able to supervise Wyatt's growth
Kevin could have supported Leo, especially in the picky years of adolescence

It wasn't impossible to think about the importance of planning Wyatt's education with his parents, but the Elders looked like a sort of nitpickers with their chitchat about balance and good and evil..

Indeed, in Imaginary Friend, Leo's love was enough to stop evil Wyatt


In Still Charmed & Kicking, when the Elders ask Victor to give them custody of the kids, I wondered if that was a potential plot: the Elders take the kids away, calling off Victor's mind every memory of his grandsons, to not break definitely the heart of a man who had lost his daughters
It'ld have been a rational choice, Victor never could have been able to raise 2 magical kids and the girls would spend the time looking for Wyatt and Chris instead of babysitting Billie

Instead, Victor gets angry and they sheepishly go away



Charmed is full of wasted good ideas

[lilchi7212]

Aug 19, 2015 14:26:21 GMT -5 erikamarie said:

Gideon wasn't able to think a so simple solution as to talk with Leo and Piper: I don't remember when and who but I am sure that an Elder told Leo that they became estranged from humanity and Leo's bond with his family was precious for them, to understand people's feelings

Nevertheless, the solution wasn't so complex

Wyatt was the prophesied son of the magic, nobody could have gone against the prophecy canceling his magic, as the Cleaners tried
And to bind his powers wasn't a solution, the Charmed One knew very well how hard was to learn how to handle powers as adults

If Leo, an Elder, had been allowed to live with his family, having as purpose to care, love and train his child, Gideon would be able to supervise Wyatt's growth
Kevin could have supported Leo, especially in the picky years of adolescence

It wasn't impossible to think about the importance of planning Wyatt's education with his parents, but the Elders looked like a sort of nitpickers with their chitchat about balance and good and evil..

Indeed, in Imaginary Friend, Leo's love was enough to stop evil Wyatt


In Still Charmed & Kicking, when the Elders ask Victor to give them custody of the kids, I wondered if that was a potential plot: the Elders take the kids away, calling off Victor's mind every memory of his grandsons, to not break definitely the heart of a man who had lost his daughters
It'ld have been a rational choice, Victor never could have been able to raise 2 magical kids and the girls would spend the time looking for Wyatt and Chris instead of babysitting Billie

Instead, Victor gets angry and they sheepishly go away



Charmed is full of wasted good ideas

Why would Victor want give the children to the Elders when he knew the Charmed Ones were alive?