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Post by ghostrider on Feb 25, 2011 22:56:41 GMT -5
In the thread "Past Sins" comments have been made about how Kern and Coven manipulated the viewer. "The Cleaners" were the topic there, but I was thinking that there must have been other times when we the viewers, now in retrospect, realize and or question other incidents. Any takers?
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 26, 2011 1:28:30 GMT -5
I find this discussion boring
In another site I read from a fan who is studing TV in LA how difficult and problematic is to write a series can't believe that 40 writers had time to think how to manipualate the audience they had barely the time to write the 50/60 pages of the script
Too many writers too few editors a show runner with too many tasks Spelling producers with no clear ideas, they first wanted a magic Charlie's Angels and Burge wrote it then changed idea and wanted a magic family then wanted teens audience plus adult women audience imposing men from Sex and the City instead of Leo...too chaotic even for the writers
Plus I fear Charmed Cafè'ld become as charmed sons a place were you can analize nothing because every thing is Kern fault-so why talk?
Plus..I am an interiors designer, as student looking at the work of others I saw many imperfections, I'ld not use that color I'ld not use that material I'ld put two couchs instead of one ...I was very good at jumping on their jobs and it's easy to refine what others had already done
But when I had my first project alone and I was in an empty room with three persons who wished different things I got into a panic: zero ideas and my project was so bad to be ashamed
Fortunately, my colleagues made it acceptable and I have learned to be more understanding
I think Charmed writers did what they were able to do, some were good and loved the sisters some weren't so interessed and worked in a slipshod way it happens
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 26, 2011 1:39:56 GMT -5
Me, Keith Richards and Jack Daniels thank you for sharing. Glad to see that you are a Designing Woman...woops, that show is gone too.... ;D
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2011 12:23:35 GMT -5
The show had its own set of problems when Constance Burge was in charge of it. I would have to say that both she and Brad Kern were responsible for many its story flaws.
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Mar 2, 2011 9:55:36 GMT -5
The difference is that Constance was not around as long as Kern so did not have the chance to destroy the characters that she created. Instead, we ended up with three characters who became the complete opposite from what they started as.
At the same time, Kern had very little imagination when it came to demons and...well demons, since that's all we really got with Kern. And the mythology was completely screwed up from one episode to the next - everytime I see Charmed on, if it's season 5 onwards I just don't bother watching anymore because I get disappointed when I notice more and more that is wrong. There's no where near as much when Constance was in charge.
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Post by Astral Echo on Mar 2, 2011 11:18:45 GMT -5
I feel Connie had her issues but as Erika pointed out, there are lots of other people telling you what they want, what they need to keep the show on air, what they should be doing that its kind of understandable that some lose their way. But Connie always kept her vision of the show in tact, she made mistakes (thats a given) but she always pushed her ideas and her visions through.
Prue as this strong, dominate and hardworking woman who would protect her sisters until death. Piper, the caring, loving but slightly pessimistic sister with low self esteem issues. And then there was Phoebe, the naive, mischievious baby sister who often acted before thinking.
Those characters were still there at the end of Season Three. They had developed, matured and grown but the characters we met in Something Wicca This Way Comes were still there. But by Charmed Forever, they weren't and worse still, the supporting cast had also all been murdered or had personality transplants. The EPs, the producers and writers had all forgotten who they were writing, they lost the voices of these characters and in amongst it, forgot what the show was all about. These things happened after Connie's deperature. Yes she also made errors but they weren't massive, they weren't issues we'd probably of been talking about had Kern got it right. Cause Kern royally fucked up. Anyone that says otherwise, clearly wasn't watching the same show.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 3, 2011 14:10:31 GMT -5
It doesn't matter to me. She made a lot of mistakes during her two-year tenure on the show. Worst of all, Kern picked up these mistakes, and continued them during his tenure; while creating his own. I nearly gave up on "CHARMED", following Season 2. It seemed stagnated to me. Kern managed to infuse some new kind of energy during the show's third season. But in the end, he also screwed up.
Regardless of how long each producer was in charge of the series, I tend to place equal blame on both Kern and Burge for what I viewed as some serious mistakes in writing.
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Mar 3, 2011 15:08:18 GMT -5
But there can't be equal blame when they were not around for an equal amount of time.
Yes, there were continuity blips and errors when Connie was around but the majority that people remember are all due to Kern's inability to look back at what the show was originally about. He destroyed the key fundamental to the show; three sisters who just happened to be witches with active powers.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 3, 2011 15:15:25 GMT -5
It doesn't matter to me. She made a lot of mistakes during her two-year tenure on the show. Worst of all, Kern picked up these mistakes, and continued them during his tenure; while creating his own. I nearly gave up on "CHARMED", following Season 2. It seemed stagnated to me. Kern managed to infuse some new kind of energy during the show's third season. But in the end, he also screwed up. Regardless of how long each producer was in charge of the series, I tend to place equal blame on both Kern and Burge for what I viewed as some serious mistakes in writing. I agree with the others that I place much more blame on Kern. For me the difference is that Connie realized that her vision wasn't working for a majority of viewers who didn't like the "demon of the week" format (me being one who loved it because it concentrated less on powers and the bad guy and more on the relationships between the sisters and others) and stepped aside. Just as many viewers grumbled about the direction that Kern was taking it, and what happens, he continues it and makes it even worse. I would've liked to have seen him step aside and let someone else try. Had he just done S3-4 (two seasons, like Connie did two seasons), or even S3-5, I would not be grumbling as loudly and I don't think other fans would've either. But for that, I also blame the circumstances - The dying WB trying to get much more out of the show than should've happened. Had it died after Season Four as it should've - with two seasons for Connie and two seasons for Kern - there wouldn't have been even half as many grumbles. We'd still probably be discussing which version was better, Connie's or Kern's, but I don't think we'd be grumbling as much and I'll bet more people would've preferred Kern's over Connie's. (In most polls, Season Three and Season Four rank higher than Season One and Season Two, with the other seasons ranking much lower than those four.) Yes, those were actually seasons that were part of Connie's basic outline, but most fans would agree that Kern did those seasons better, because had Connie continued, although we still would've seen Cole introduced, Piper & Leo married, the Source's attacks, Cole becoming the Source, Phoebe turning evil and finally Cole vanquished, we probably would've continued the "Demon of the Week" format with demons being "The Demons of..." along with warlocks, pirates, etc rather than the episodic way of handling the show as Kern did. As shown, most fans would not have liked that. Only when Kern went out on his own - giving Paige whitelighter-affected powers in order to make things fresh, making Cole crazy and turning Phoebe into Freebie/PhoeME, but especially the Jump-the-Shark moment of the Twice Blessed Brat with his own prophecy making him more powerful than the sisters, and making him and his mother the center of the rest of the series (and please note I would've felt the same way had he been Prudence Melinda as he should've), did Kern totally screw up, making it worse with the whole mess of Chris, followed by the entire mess of the Avatars and ending with the worst mess of Billie and Christy - all great ideas done horribly mainly thanks to horrible casting and the total personality lobotomies he gave the sisters. That's what bugs most fans the most and why I put most of the blame on Kern. |
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 4, 2011 18:57:56 GMT -5
I just finished watching all of season one, and I am spotting errors all over the place that I never noticed before. It's easier to do this when you are watching everything in one big fuzzy clump.
Both Connie and Kern can come under the gun so to speak but I am going to gravitate to the word VISION. In my opinion she had one. As for Mr. Kern, I think his vision was not in the story telling but in dollar signs. Hence the reason the series continued well passed its prime. Just a thought.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 7, 2011 18:32:09 GMT -5
Yes there can. In my eyes.
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Post by erikamarie on Mar 9, 2011 5:21:02 GMT -5
Me, Keith Richards and Jack Daniels thank you for sharing. Glad to see that you are a Designing Woman...woops, that show is gone too.... ;D Sorry I don't understand the hint |
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 14, 2011 17:26:28 GMT -5
Posted by erikamarie on 3/9/11 at 5:21am Sorry I don't understand the hint My dear I owe you both an apology and an explanation for the above snarky remark. As soon as I am up to it I will send you a private post...promise... 
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 15, 2011 1:18:46 GMT -5
But that doesn't excuse Connie Burge's mistakes. And I found hers just as massive as Brad Kern's.
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Post by erikamarie on Mar 15, 2011 4:30:25 GMT -5
I agree with Lj
I am always surprised to see how it is mythologized Connie Burge
She was in charge of writing a series inspired by The Craft with a touch of Charlie Angels and I think she was well paid: it was a job as well as Ally Mc Beal where she wrote some of the worse episodes of the series
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 15, 2011 11:31:37 GMT -5
Posted by ljones on Today at 1:18am
Not trying to start a hot war here with you that burns brighter than the San Francisco fire of 1906....but, if Connie was only in major control for the first two years and Kern the final six, if her mistakes were as massive...wouldn't that make seasons one and two the worst ever?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 15, 2011 12:13:41 GMT -5
I guess it all depends upon what you consider as the best. Most people who don't like the earlier seasons came into Charmed late, saw the later seasons, loved that format and those sisters and then found stuff wrong when they watched the earlier seasons. Most people who don't like the later seasons started from the beginning.
There's others who either ell in love with Drew Fuller or felt sorry for poor, poor pitfiul second son and love S6.
Then there's people like ljones who appears to have not liked anything on the show with the exception of Cole, who had Connie stuck around would have never shown a good side and we'd never be hearing ljones talk all about why everyone should be ambivalent rather than either good or evil. (Feel free to correct me, ljones - I know you will - but that's what I get from all of your posts.)
For me, it's a lot of what happens in the latter seasons that shows what was done wrong during the earlier ones, so that's why I'll continue to blame Kern. Had Kern not had Grams tell the sisters to just "someone just start rhyming and orb him somewhere" I wouldn't blame her for the sisters using magic for personal gain and not be surprised when they're not punished. Had that not happened, I wouldn't have thought that Grams didn't train the sisters properly. This continues on and on. It's Kern's change in vision or lack of it that screws up Connie's vision.
I still blame Kern. Those who love the way things were done in the latter years probably blame Connie.
Undoubtedly the blame belongs to both - I've said this many times - but that's why I only own the first three seasons and don't waste my time watching any episode from when the original Source is vanquished to the episode when Wyatt is born and then won't watch any from "Oh, My Goddess" forward.
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 15, 2011 12:54:12 GMT -5
Today in Charmed School Professor Zankou helped me to find the light switch that was right under my nose, but I missed every time as I was sleep walking in the dark.
Posted by (Prof.) Esmeralda Zankou on Today at 12:13pm
I guess it all depends upon what you consider as the best. Most people who don't like the earlier seasons came into Charmed late, saw the later seasons, loved that format and those sisters and then found stuff wrong when they watched the earlier seasons. Most people who don't like the later seasons started from the beginning.
The light is bright and is helping me to recall that I have made a point that I don't like change. Well of course I am not alone there. Those that arrived late to class experienced something special that kept them returning...I applaud that. Others that checked into Charmed 101 on the first day of class, became disappointed when their major moved in a different direction and they either dropped out or blamed the Dean. I understand, at last...
I think I will pull a Pollyanna and try to find the good in both camps...sooo, what ever turned you on to Charmed, Thank You, for with out both fractions coming together their might not be a Cafe for all of us to experience others joys and disappointments.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 15, 2011 18:02:32 GMT -5
Today in Charmed School Professor Zankou helped me to find the light switch that was right under my nose, but I missed every time as I was sleep walking in the dark. Hehehehe! Absolutely fantastic way of looking at it! Great job! Specifically we blame it on the new Dean. I agree totally. I truly believe that if there weren't so many problems with Charmed or if there weren't two such different factions, the conversation around the Cafe tables would get awful dull. Viva le difference and a place where we can discuss them and still be friends![/quote] |
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Post by ljones on Mar 15, 2011 18:07:35 GMT -5
I prefer the earlier seasons over the later seasons . . . well, Seasons One and Three. My opinion of Season Two is pretty low. And since Season Three happens to be my favorite, well I have a hard time viewing Connie Burge as the better producer.
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