ljones
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Post by ljones on Jul 26, 2007 12:03:35 GMT -5
Hmmmmm . . . not buying it. Sorry.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 26, 2007 16:10:53 GMT -5
I'm not selling it either! Can't we have an in-depth discussion of the Avatars or something more meaningful? I get a headache just thinking about this!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Jul 31, 2007 0:56:07 GMT -5
Not really interested in the Avatars at the moment.
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 1, 2007 16:31:22 GMT -5
If you get the chance, read the interview that Joel Swetow gave Charmed the Magazine in the latest (August) issue. From an actor's perspective, Mr. Swetow found it fascinating that Charmed would dare broach the idea of creating a utopia, albeit one that was ultimately totalitarian in nature. As as actor, Mr. Swetow found this challenging since he had to protray a character whom the audience could not immediately peg as good or evil (despite the dark attire). What he found dissatisfying was the suddenness with which the Avatar story arc was terminated - finances and lack of imagination. Again, read the comments. They were most fascinating!
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 2, 2007 16:12:34 GMT -5
Now, where do we go from here. First, I propose examining in depth the case against the Charmed Ones as presented in Crimes and Witch Demeanors, a wholy inadequate case as I will argue. Then, we can reconstruct the prosecution of the Charmed Ones in Crimes and Witch Demeanors without the distraction that FEAR put forth. Finally, I shall call for a new convening of the Tribunal in order to place the Charmed Ones once again in the docket!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 3, 2007 20:20:33 GMT -5
If you get the chance, read the interview that Joel Swetow gave Charmed the Magazine in the latest (August) issue. From an actor's perspective, Mr. Swetow found it fascinating that Charmed would dare broach the idea of creating a utopia, albeit one that was ultimately totalitarian in nature. As as actor, Mr. Swetow found this challenging since he had to protray a character whom the audience could not immediately peg as good or evil (despite the dark attire). What he found dissatisfying was the suddenness with which the Avatar story arc was terminated - finances and lack of imagination. Again, read the comments. They were most fascinating! It's too bad that Mr. Swetow didn't realize that the show did such a crappy job in their "utopia" story. Why do you even bother suggesting this? It's obvious that you want to discuss the "crimes" of the Charmed Ones without bringing up their more serious offenses - like those committed in "Hyde School Reunion". Apparently, you simply want to limit and control the topics to be discussed.
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 7, 2007 15:15:22 GMT -5
No, your agenda is not my idea of a fruitful agenda. Flogging a dead horse does nothing but wear out the flogger. Whipping us with your egregious statements might seem to inflict pain on us, but we've long since become inured to it. The preposterous nature of your "analysis", precious little that it is, neither helps us gain greater clarity nor advance our understanding of Charmedverse. I guess you didn't understand Mr. Swetow's comments either. Nor do you seem to understand the relationship between actors and scripts in Hollywood.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 7, 2007 20:30:58 GMT -5
My idea . . . or agenda of discussing the Charmed Ones' mistakes and crimes is to focus on every mistake they had committed, instead of focusing upon certain ones.
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 8, 2007 15:58:55 GMT -5
Oh really? And, we thought you only had an HYDE School axe to grind.... Who knew?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 12, 2007 21:38:59 GMT -5
vandergraafk, I found your discussion completely fascinating and showed me one of the main things that ended up turning me off of the show, the complete total disregard of personal gain.
I'd never thought of the battle between the sisters and the underworld being similar to true war, and attempting to use the same rules. I also find it very interesting how the Wiccan rede: “And it harms none, do what you will,” developed into the concept of personal gain (if you notice, it's not the same, only if you harm others, most specifically innocents, and within the concepts of Charmedverse, innocents are anyone who isn't magical), but then that concept was constantly changed depending upon the circumstances. I personally think that as long as they continued with the idea of "Wrong things done for the right reasons are still wrong", then they would've been following it properly, and starting with the theivary of Darryl's soul without his permission (perhaps it was returned to him unharmed, but it was the beginning of the end of a beautiful friendship and I didn't blame Darryl for eventually turning his back on them one bit!) to the bit with Rick (which would've been fine with me, since as you said, there was no conspiracy between them and the Scabber demons, if the sisters had shown more remorse over his death) to the horrible "we don't care what happens to everyone else as long as we have our own happy perfect world , but as soon as we're reminded that we've been hurt, let's change it back" of Charmedaggedon (it was during that story arc that I began hating the sisters--I'd started disliking them during S6 when they borrowed Darryl's soul without permission!) to Piper changing the reporters into rats with no reprecussion. It made my eyes roll out of their sockets how often they talked about not doing something due to personal gain, but then were allowed to do that if it added some comedy to the show. As you pointed out, bad writers!! Bad, BAD writers!
I think the show could've been more interesting, especially within the idea of war, had they stuck to “And it harms none, do what you will,” allowing the sisters to use much more magic without harming innocents.
The biggest problem is that by S8, the sisters were so used to deciding who was good and who was evil and vanquishing whoever they thought were evil, they even ended up taking in the Hollow, becoming evil, in order to vanquish a couple of witches! Witches who drove us all nuts but who were witches nonetheless. There were definite similarities between Christy and Patty Hearst. Patty was rehabilitated. Couldn't/shouldn't Christy have been? vandergraafk, I'd love to hear your analysis of that situation, since I *love* reading logical debate and you do it so well!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 13, 2007 13:47:52 GMT -5
Oh really? And, we thought you only had an HYDE School axe to grind.... Who knew? What the hell is the matter with you? Someone else had brought up the HYDE SCHOOL REUNION episode and I continued the conversation. You're the one who insisted that the episode had nothing to do with the topic on this thread. Good grief!!!
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 13, 2007 17:19:23 GMT -5
DO YOU EVER READ ANY POSTS OTHER THAN YOUR OWN IN ANY THREAD? I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW YOU ARRIVE AT ANY CONCLUSION OTHER THAN THE FOREORDAINED ONE THAT YOU'VE ALREADY SETTLED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE AVATARS WHEN THAT IS PERHAPS THE CLEAREST INSTANCE WHEN THE CHARMED ONES VIOLATED PERHAPS EVER ETHICAL CODE IN THE BOOK. SO WHAT EPISODE DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT? ME? I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT A SPECIFIC EPISODE. I WANT TO IMBED DISCUSSION OF SPECIFIC EPISODES IN A MORAL FRAMEWORK. WOW! WHAT A CONCEPT!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 13, 2007 17:39:46 GMT -5
DO YOU EVER READ ANY POSTS OTHER THAN YOUR OWN IN ANY THREAD? I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW YOU ARRIVE AT ANY CONCLUSION OTHER THAN THE FOREORDAINED ONE THAT YOU'VE ALREADY SETTLED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE AVATARS WHEN THAT IS PERHAPS THE CLEAREST INSTANCE WHEN THE CHARMED ONES VIOLATED PERHAPS EVER ETHICAL CODE IN THE BOOK. SO WHAT EPISODE DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT? ME? I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT A SPECIFIC EPISODE. I WANT TO IMBED DISCUSSION OF SPECIFIC EPISODES IN A MORAL FRAMEWORK. WOW! WHAT A CONCEPT! I think you've just explained your own behavior.
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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 15, 2007 12:08:31 GMT -5
With a strong desire to move on, I would like to examine the events leading up and culminating in the Avatar story arc. Let's consider the starting points for the various sisters.
Phoebe: in The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell Phoebe experienced a vision quest that provided her with a glimpse of a world free of demons. In this world, she saw herself as an expectant mother and the aunt of two nephews. For her, a demon free world was inextricably connected to motherhood. That the events of Forever Charmed proved this relationship erroneous is beside the point. At this stage, Phoebe saw the two as intimately connected.
Piper: for many years, Piper had expressed a desire for a normal life. The events of Season 6 had placed her relationship with Leo in extreme jeopardy. The incessant demon attacks on Wyatt, and the suggestion that Wyatt himself might turn evil in the future, made a normal life seem even more compelling. Yet, Piper was not one to leap into a gambit just for a change of pace. She was reluctant to become a witch, and to casually buy into the Avatar promise was something beyond her nature.
Paige: Paige had grown to enjoy her witchy/whitelighter powers immensely. Though she had not yet had the opportunity to develop her whitelighter side - she had yet to acquire the ability to heal - she was not prepared to give up her powers on a whim. In a sense, her life was defined as a witch/whitelighter, even though it posed some problems with Richard and Kyle. Still, there was no overwhelming desire for her to buy into the Avatar scheme, especially as Kyle was adamantly set against it.
Here roughly is the story sequence:
1) Leo becomes an Avatar for he has grown weary of the battle to protect his family from evil. The prospect that neither Piper nor her sisters nor anything of the offspring will live out a normal life makes him all the more desirous of making a radical change.
2) Phoebe sees the vision from Kira the Seer, a vision that corresponds with her own vision quest.
3) Piper sees the reactions of the "ordinary" witches to Phoebe/Kira's vision and becomes convinced that a demon free world is possible.
Thus, the argument amounts to the followng:
We (the Charmed Ones and the Avatars) can bring about a demon free world.
We wish to bring about a demon free world (since we are tired of the day to day battle to survive one demonic attack after another). Paige is outvoted by her sisters.
Therefore, we will bring about an extreme makeover.
The holes in this argument are as plain as day and make me wonder why the Charmed Ones are never held accountable since at least one person dies (Kyle) as a result of their experiment in Utopia.
The holes:
1) Just because I can do something does not give me the right to do something.
2) Just because I am tired of fighting demons does not give me the right to construct a world wherein innocent third-parties will have their moral compasses re-oriented during a necessary nap.
3) The Charmed Ones could always have renounced their powers in order to resume normal lives with the knowledge that demons would continue to exist and innocents would no longer be protected by them.
4) No attempt is made to obtain the consent of the mind-affected. Indeed, not only is their consent not required, their dissent will be rewarded with death. The Charmed Ones never explore all the ramifications. Indeed, Piper closes off this line of questioning by asserting that there are some things that just need to be accepted on faith.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Mar 8, 2008 7:54:57 GMT -5
the "i want a normal life free of deamons" argument really annoys me. they had the opportunity to live this normal life at the end of season 4 when the angel of destiny comes visiting and HANDS THEM THIS LIFE ON A SILVER PLATTER..all they need to do was say yes. THEY CHOSE NO. they chose to continue being charmed hence they chose to fight the demons which comes with this responsibility.
hence using this argument to justify the change of world events by the avatars is completely invalid.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Mar 8, 2008 13:30:22 GMT -5
The Charmed Ones were not the only ones capable of hunting demons or saving innocents. Why the magical world has to depend solely upon them makes no sense. Nor was the magical world in a state of chaos, before the Charmed Ones came into existence.
So, I agree that the sisters could have given up their powers to resume their own lives. But I don't think they should worry about demons and innocents. They were not the only witches or demon hunters in existence.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Mar 8, 2008 18:16:22 GMT -5
yes, but it was their major responsibility of being charmed. they were the most powerful witches ever, a prophecy. any other witch compared to then is just chickenfeed.
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Post by whitelightertony on Mar 8, 2008 19:06:07 GMT -5
Agreed with Pubesy.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 9, 2008 2:45:42 GMT -5
Major responsibility of being charmed? I find that irrevelant. In fact, it sounds like an excuse to rob the sisters of any free will they might possess. "You have magical powers, therefore you have to save innocents by killing demons." The ironic thing is that I used to believe that nonsense . . . until I came to my senses and realized that such an attitude deprived the Halliwells of any free will they might possess.
I just don't believe that one should be responsible for hunting and killing demons, because one possesses magical powers. I don't. I 'm sorry, but I find such an idea ridiculous. Also, there are other witches, demon hunters or other magic practitioners who can deal with magical baddies. I mean, what the hell was the magical world doing before the emergence of the Charmed Ones? Sitting on their asses and praying to whatever deity to send someone to save them? I doubt it very much.
I've noticed that many fans of shows that feature fantasy, science-fiction or comic book heroes seemed to harbor this belief that these characters who possess special abilities MUST fight evil, whether they like it or not. Why? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why is it so important to these fans that certain characters MUST fight evil? It seems as if these fans have some kind of hero complex, because they secretly harbor a desire to have some special person to always help them or come to their rescue, whenever their lives become difficult. I might be wrong. And I'm certain that many would disagree with me. But . . . I wonder.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Mar 9, 2008 3:09:13 GMT -5
with great power comes great responsibility. it is not a fact of robbing the girls of any free will they posses. if they did not want to continue the fight then they had the choice. they could have given up their power and led a innocent free, demon free lifestyle. they chose not to.
they were never forced to save innocents. and i find it irrelevant what happened before the charmed ones. we could never know.
and why shouldn't they help others? what else were they supposed to do with such great power?
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