Elder
Witch
"I'd still take 'good' that's not always good, over 'bad' that's NEVER good"
Posts: 1,029
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Post by Elder on Nov 15, 2007 9:59:43 GMT -5
Okay kids...it's time to step out of the realm of the Halliwells and into the world of real people!
That Brad Kern guy has been the focus of huge amounts of attention within the series--and not all of it is good. There are some that say Charmed was going in a great direction until Brad took over and crashed it into a tree or a telephone poll.
How much--if any--is Brad Kern to blame for the way the series played out from season 3 to the end? If he's bad for the show, why? Is he just an easy target to hit or is he truly responsible for the silliness of the show?
Brad says he didn't want couples to be happy and together because that would be boring. Is that true? Can a show about constant daily battles be boring?
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Post by Assassin Witch on Nov 15, 2007 11:30:15 GMT -5
As the Executive Producer - the one in charge - yes, I blame him for Charmed's downfall. Constance was gone and Spelling had the company that produced the show and what not. It was Brad Kern who was in charge of the direction. It was his job to run the show, and he ran it.
To the ground.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 15, 2007 19:06:48 GMT -5
Okay kids...it's time to step out of the realm of the Halliwells and into the world of real people! That Brad Kern guy has been the focus of huge amounts of attention within the series--and not all of it is good. There are some that say Charmed was going in a great direction until Brad took over and crashed it into a tree or a telephone poll. How much--if any--is Brad Kern to blame for the way the series played out from season 3 to the end? If he's bad for the show, why? Is he just an easy target to hit or is he truly responsible for the silliness of the show? Brad says he didn't want couples to be happy and together because that would be boring. Is that true? Can a show about constant daily battles be boring? For me, the show's downfall did not begin with Season 3. I was already disatisfied with Burge's handling of Season 2. I thought she was stagnating the show in story development and characterization - with the exception of Prue. I thank Kern for introducing Cole in Season 3, for making Prue aware of both the good and darkness within her and for the introduction of multi-episode story arcs. However . . . Kern was also responsible for how he had ended Cole's personal arc in that badly written fashion. He failed to end the Source and Chris' story arcs with any good writing. He introduced the stoopid magical creatures in Season 5. He continued Burge's inability to maintain canon. And pretty much allowed the show to go down the toilet in my eyes. So, I think he has a lot to answer for.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 15, 2007 20:25:33 GMT -5
I suppose we could all take turns piling on Mr. Kern. I choose not to for the simple reason that few of us, if any, have ever worn the shoes that he filled for many, many seasons. Let's acknowledge that, as a writer to whom many of the best Charmed episodes were credited, he did quite admirably in that role. Many of his stories are thrilling and poignant and define what I regard as the best in Charmed.
Yet, Mr. Kern had a second hat to wear, that of executive producer. He was accountable to the producers of Charmed at Spelling Productions. Apparently, he enjoyed their confidence for the entire time. He called some of the shots, I'm sure. But, he also had to deal with decisions that were made by others. Promotable hunks? Does anyone really wish to hold Mr. Kern accountable for that idea? Introduce a new character in Charmed, preferably someone who wasn't a member of the family. Was that Mr. Kern's call? Was it his fault that Charmed almost got cancelled at the end of Season 7 and left the writers uncertain whether to work towards a season finale or a series finale? Do we really wish to hold Mr. Kern accountable for Julian McMahon's decision to leave Charmed?
As a writer, I do know that many of the issues that he had to deal with I don't. I can introduce, kill off, reconstitute characters as I please. I don't have to introduce an entirely cardboard character like Dex Lawson simply to gain a larger ratings share. Nor do I have to limit my imagination to what the budgets will allow, what actors are available and what network censors deem appropriate. True, I might shape my book in order to sell lots of copies. But, I don't even have to do that nowadays. I can choose to self-publish and hope that I can forgo the skill and expertise of a paid editor.
It's easy to dump on people. Yet, until one of us actually has to walk that mile, I prefer to limit my criticism to specific issues that did not get adequately addressed or were insufficiently resolved.
I realize that this approach probably focuses my attention solely to the minute issues of writing quality, plot and character development, symbolism, etc. But, isn't that the nuts and bolts of any Hollywood production? Indeed, I am aware that neither film schools nor Hollywood producer share my concern with writers per se. As the strike by the Writers Guild has made us all painfully aware again, most writers are treated as mere laborers crafting stories, revising them, revising them again, inserting lines when told to, etc., without getting the full recognition as the creative genius or lack thereof behind TV. They may be well paid at times. But, they don't control the product they write.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 15, 2007 22:28:51 GMT -5
I am holding him accountable for the way Julian McMahon's character left the show. In what I believe was a badly written episode, coming at the end of a badly written story arc.
Even if Brad Kern had a lot of responsibilities regarding CHARMED, it still went downhill - in my opinion - during his tenure as executive producer. And as the show's main producer during Seasons 3-8, he left himself open to a great deal of criticism. I'm sure that he can deal with it.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 16, 2007 11:34:45 GMT -5
Since I have no idea as to your qualifications as a writer, I haven't a clue as to what you are basing your "opinion" of the final story arc for the Cole character. I assume the episode you are referencing is Centennial Charmed, but your comment would seem to go beyond that to include Sam I Am, Y Tu Mummy Tambien, The Importance of Being Phoebe and perhaps a few other episodes.
As with almost every episode of Charmed it is possible to expose logical fallacies, contradictions, strange additions to "canon", inadequate plot development, etc., I am hard pressed to cite these episodes as sufficiently egregious with respect to such issues. Generally, they are well-written, fast-paced modular episodes that adequately contribute to the final story arc for Cole Turner.
Now, it is possible to argue, as you have done elsewhere, that the Cole character did not develop in path many fans might have wished. His suicide by witch goal and rejection of the Avatar alternative might not have been the best choices, but they are certainly choices conceivable for a character as complex as Cole. Where I might find fault is what might seem to be the herky-jerky nature of the final, overall story arc involving Cole. It seems rushed and does not really flow as smoothly as it might.
In some respects, I might compare this to the Zankou story arc that concluded Season 7. Uncertain whether the series would be renewed, Mr. Kern felt compelled to at least write an ending that might hint at a series finale. As he has stated in Charmed Magazine, the way the season ended would not have been his ideal series ending story arc. For Mr. Kern, Season 8 gave him the opportunity to end Charmed in a much more satisfying way. Though I disagree that the Ultimate Battle story arc is compelling, it does at least have more time to breathe and progresses smoothly towards the climax.
I suspect that once again the issue is not the quality of writing per se. Rather, it is the discontent you have expressed numerous times with respect to the inability or unwillingness of the Charmed Ones to confront Cole about his possession by the Source that is at issue. Let's not cloak our real concerns by claiming structural deficiencies or glaring writing weaknesses when these, in fact, are not really the issue. I prefer to call a spade a spade.
As always, everyone is entitled to an opinion. So what? Opinions are a dime a dozen and worth about as much. Reasoned analysis? That's much harder to achieve. Again, as I indicated above, we could use this thread just to pile on Mr. Kern. I find that neither fair nor fruitful. He made decisions, given the constraints in which he found himself, that had enormous consequence for Charmed. Some of these decisions may have been ill-advised. Some may have been quite good. I just don't know enough insider information to take a stance that I could feel certain about.
To conclude, in Sam I Am, one of my most treasured Charmed episodes, Paige cautions Phoebe not to leap to conclusions before having all of the facts. Good advice then, good advice now.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 16, 2007 11:54:00 GMT -5
Well, I'll tell you. I've written and published two novels. I've already finished writing a third novel, which is a sequel to the first.
And there is something else. You're the only one who has went through so much trouble to defend Kern's tenure as producer of CHARMED. I get the oddest feeling that either you know him or are aquainted with him. Then again, I might be wrong.
Are you trying to hint that the opinions posted about Kern on this forum are nothing more than assumptions made by the rest of us?
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 16, 2007 19:41:29 GMT -5
Now that we know your qualifications, perhaps you might enlighten us with a bit more of the specifics regarding your "opinion" of the final story arc and the final, badly written story. Indeed, in the absence of such, I will simply assume that your rejection of that story arc has more to do with your disdain over the failure of the Charmed Ones to have empathy with Cole and at least wonder why he had gone over to the dark side.
As for opinions and assumptions: frankly, I don't care what people's opinions are. Nor do I particularly care what they assume. As long as these don't harm anyone or cause harm to anyone else, people are free to keep their opinions to themselves. What troubles me more is that too often opinions, when expressed, are worth less than the air displaced, the ink expended, or the keystrokes compressed. What is a worthy opinion you might ask? It surely is one that illuminates an issue in such a way that we are better able to understand what's at stake. Though we may not always agree with the opinion expressed, we do gain a greater appreciation for whatever it is being discussed.
Informed opinion, reasoned analysis, call it what you will, but such opinions demand more both of the expressors of opinion and their intended audience. We don't put down without reason. We don't dismiss without justification. We are clear about the criteria we use when casting judgement. Likewise, we don't accept statements simply because they fit our pre-existing opinions. We don't approve simply because we share their prejudice. We do allow ourselves to be won over, but only begrudingly perhaps, because we demand high standards of opinion setters.
And, no, for the last time: I have not had nor do I ever expect to make the acquaintance of Mr. Kern. I would consider it an honor to have a chance to pose questions to him about Charmed. Certainly, these would not be of the softball variety that Charmed Magazine seems to prefer. At the moment, though, I couldn't tell you what my top ten questions would be. I am still engaging in research with respect to Charmed. There are still many issues I haven't adequately thought through or haven't thoroughly vetted before the handful of tough contributors to this site whose opinions I do rather cherish.
Finally, if, as Elder asserts, that Mr. Kern's penchant for conflict within couples is correct, then one mightly rightly ask whether he allowed his personal penchant to damage what many regard as one of the strengths of Charmed: the relationship between Piper and Leo. Did Piper really have to flirt with a fireman in order for us to see perhaps the inevitable differences of opinion that might arise in a relationship between whitelighter and witch?
If we are talking about shaky story arcs, then surely this has to be one. How is it that Piper and Leo go from lovey dovey to you've betrayed me in a span of about 20 episodes, many of which did not even place their relationship at center stage? So what Leo became an Elder? Where was the desire on the part of Leo and Piper to come to grips with such a life-changing event and muddle their way through as a couple?
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 17, 2007 23:45:08 GMT -5
I agree that Kern made several bad decisions throughout the course of the series.
However, I'm not so certain that Burge would have done any better in the long run - - especially if she had kept the show moving in the direction of Season 2's tone (the only point in the series where I actually stopped watching new episodes for a period of time).
I also don't believe it would have lasted as long under Burge. And I think she would have decided to leave at some point anyway, to try something new.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 18, 2007 7:15:24 GMT -5
This is one of the reasons why I almost gave up on the show after Season 2.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 18, 2007 17:41:46 GMT -5
Fortunately, Season 3 pulled me back in.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 19, 2007 20:16:32 GMT -5
That's why I found it so curious that Ms. Burge even agreed to appear on the Season 8 extras. Yes, mention of her was important. But, they actually allowed her a chance to speak. Of course, the questions that both whitelightertony, ljones and I might like to ask were never asked.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 22, 2007 3:08:54 GMT -5
VG, I haven't seen the Season 8 DVD...what did they ask Ms. Burge?
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 24, 2007 18:58:19 GMT -5
I never really said anything about the final season. Why would I? I've never seen it, except for one or two episodes. And whenever I watched them, I never bothered finish watching them, because the stories sucked and could not maintain my interest.
So, I'm afraid that I will not be "enlightening" you about the specifics of the show's final arc and battle. Why did you ask me about Season 8 only, in the first place?
And why won't you just accept my low opinion of Brad Kern? Do you need a reason to post messages that are supposed to change my mind? Do you plan to do the same for other fans who loathe his handling of the show?
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 26, 2007 19:38:41 GMT -5
During the Charmed marathon on Thanksgiving Day, I watched with awe and amazement at the two-parter episode Valhalley of the Dolls. If there were ever a show that messed with Charmed, then this show is it. First, let's ignore the fact that Piper was practically a Stepford wife throughout the entire episode. Okay, maybe a zombie is more like it. Second, let's ignore the fact that the dialogue is not particularly funny or well-written. Third, let's not ignore the fact that in this episode the Charmed Ones are instructed to vanquish a demon on command by Chris. As the episode opens, Chris is trying to gather up the Charmed Ones, each going her separate way, except Piper who is too annoyingly chipper to going any way except crazy, in order to vanquish a demon who rarely visits the temporal plane of existence that the Charmed Ones occupy. Ha ha, the Trok has two heads and Piper blasts one of them off before the Charmed Ones vanquish this demon with a power of three spell.
Why, though, do the Charmed Ones vanquish this demon? Frankly, we are never given a reason. The fact that this demon rarely visits the Charmed Ones' plane of existence should mean that it poses very little threat to any innocents in San Francisco or beyond. There is no reason that this demon should have been vanquished by the Charmed Ones. Unfortunately, this does, however, open the floodgates to all of the demon vanquishing that Chris will have the sisters accomplish in this season, the season where I believe Charmed to have taken two steps backward for the one step forward they took (developing a new character: Chris).
Whitelightertony, as for your comment, Ms. Burge was only asked about the creation of Charmed, not its subsequent development post season 1 or post her departure from Charmed. As you can imagine, this is one of the areas I would ask.
Now, ljones, as much as I may excused Mr. Kern above, many of the arguments I used above do not apply to Season 6. We know that for this season the WB committed to the largest outlay of money for any Charmed season. They expected big things from the show. Thus, budget cannot be cited as an explanation for excusing why Season 6 had some really, really bizarre episodes (Witchstock, Valhalley of the Dolls, A Wrong Day's Journey into Right (immediately after Crimes and Witch Demeanors) that ran contrary to much of Charmedverse. If you wish, I might even include Hyde School Reunion (only for the lousy resolution of the conflict). How does Mr. Kern explain why things went so terribly wrong during Season 6? The question becomes all the more urgent in light of whitelightertony's explication of all the strange things that happened in Witchstock.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 27, 2007 0:52:27 GMT -5
I think the main reason was because Chris wanted to cover all his bases. But that does lead to some interesting questions?
Is the Trok Demon still alive in Chris's future. Has Chris never had any experience with the Trok Demon, and that's why he suspects it may be responsible for turning Wyatt?
And I'd be careful about ruling out the legitimacy behind Chris's action just because the Trok Demon presides on another plane of existence. Demons can always find excuses to cross over from other realms (i.e. Abraxas), if they really want to. Look at how long the Avatars lurked and waited. Perhaps there was something written about the Trok Demon in the Book of Shadows that led Chris to suspect it might pose a threat to Wyatt, based on the Trok Demon's specific desires or motives?
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 27, 2007 19:28:01 GMT -5
Your suggestions point to possible ways out of the dilemma. However, without the proper foundation established - why is the Trok demon a threat, etc. - this comes across as just another demon bash, the first in a long list that Chris is going to foist on the Charmed Ones during Season 6. For the writing collective to glibly gloss over the needed foundation and invariably alter the modus operandi of the Charmed Ones Season 6 suggests to me a serious conceptual problem in the formulation and execution of the Season 6 story arc.
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 1, 2007 23:49:58 GMT -5
The writers just should have thrown in an extra line about what specific type of special threat the Trok Demon might pose to a innocent young toddler witch.
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Elder
Witch
"I'd still take 'good' that's not always good, over 'bad' that's NEVER good"
Posts: 1,029
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Post by Elder on Dec 5, 2007 10:07:43 GMT -5
The writers just should have thrown in an extra line about what specific type of special threat the Trok Demon might pose to a innocent young toddler witch. Is the Trok demon a single entity or is it part of a demonic race of beings? Getting rid of just one if there is a whole group of them would be pointless, eh?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 5, 2007 13:19:20 GMT -5
Since I don't know Brad Kern personally, I can't say if he's good or bad. Nor can I say how much of what happened during his tenure as Charmed's Executive Producer (and I see his influence during S3 as much as the latter episodes) was actually his doing or if he was forced into such things to make the show more like the other shows on The WB.
But I do know that he had some fantastically wonderful ideas for plotlines that were done horribly badly. Not all of them, but the majority. On that I can place the blame. The major thing is he took four characters whom I loved (Prue, Piper, Phoebe and Leo) and two of his own who I also loved (Cole and Paige) and at times turned them into characters I couldn't stand. Whoever forced those changes on those characters, they're the ones I think ruined the show.
And, no, I don't see Connie Burge as St. Constance the way Vander sees Brad Kern as St Bradley who can't be knocked (the reason I no longer read Vander's posts, just the replies to them) Although I loved S2 and count it as my favorite season, I know a lot of people don't, so obviously it could've been done better. The characters of Dan and Jenny could've obviously been done much better than they were so all viewers would've truly thought that either Dan or Leo could've made Piper a fine husband, making it a more difficult choice. But Connie Burge obviously knew Prue, Piper and Phoebe and loved those characters (since they were based on her and her own sisters) and wanted us to love them, too. Kern didn't love his characters enough to make them consistent or loveable--the only time you loved them is when you felt sorry for them. That's what I'll never be able to forgive him for doing. Changing Prue into the scene-stealer she was in S3 (letting HER be the star of Piper's wedding???), changing Piper into a whiney self-centered cold b*tch and changing Phoebe into a self-centered sl*t, no, I'll never forgive him for that.
It's why I'm glad he killed off *my* favorite sister, Prue. He was beginning to turn her into the cold, self-centered b*tch that must be what he thinks is characteristics of the oldest, since that's what he did to Piper. There are worst things than being thrown through a wall and killed. Character assassination is one of them.
As I said at the beginning, I don't know how much of those changes were actually his or actually forced on him. But he *was* the one who was in charge; these changes were done on his watch. As such he should and does hold the blame.
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