ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 23, 2007 1:46:54 GMT -5
I do too. But according to "We All Scream For Ice Cream", Prue was six years old when Victor was still around. That was sometime in 1976 or 1977. Patty and Sam had to have conceived Paige either just before, around or after Phoebe's 1st birthday - November 1976.
From "The Good, the Bad and the Cursed":
Victor: I don't know what you're talking about. Tell me a little bit more about this Leo fellow anyway. How did he and Piper meet?
Phoebe: Oh, it was a couple of years ago at the house. He was our handyman.
Victor: Piper's marrying a handyman?
Phoebe: Well, no, he isn't really a handyman. Wait, you do know...
Victor: All I know is he's a nice enough guy who seems to know the big bad secret. Trust me, it's a lot better for a mortal to know he's marrying a witch before the wedding instead of after. Wish I had.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 23, 2007 15:34:12 GMT -5
I do too. But according to "We All Scream For Ice Cream", Prue was six years old when Victor was still around. That was sometime in 1976 or 1977. Patty and Sam had to have conceived Paige either just before, around or after Phoebe's 1st birthday - November 1976. From "The Good, the Bad and the Cursed": Victor: I don't know what you're talking about. Tell me a little bit more about this Leo fellow anyway. How did he and Piper meet?
Phoebe: Oh, it was a couple of years ago at the house. He was our handyman.
Victor: Piper's marrying a handyman?
Phoebe: Well, no, he isn't really a handyman. Wait, you do know...
Victor: All I know is he's a nice enough guy who seems to know the big bad secret. Trust me, it's a lot better for a mortal to know he's marrying a witch before the wedding instead of after. Wish I had.Ah I see now, ok so Patty has some strikes against her. They all do, Sam also has a huge strike against him for forbidden feelings and relationship with a charge. But the way he was willing to break the rules to be with her shows that he truly loved her just like Piper and Leo. However he should have known better than to start something with her when she was still married. As for Victor Patty's intentions were probably good, she probably just did not want to scare him off, remember Dan's reaction? Perhaps she was afraid of something like that and she loved him so she did not want to lose him. However she should have trusted that if he truly loved her he would never let it get in his way of being with her. I also don't know how to explain her running off with Sam if it was not after Victor left. Perhaps they were separated at the time just not officially divorced. Or Maybe the issues between Victor and Grams were overwhelming her and she was not happy with them both at the time. I don't know and its hard to say as there is nothing really said about that except the little more we hear when Paige comes into play. Overall the entire love triangle has cracks in it, but something good came out of all of it, the four charmed ones.  |
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Post by pipercharmedphreak on Dec 23, 2007 23:22:09 GMT -5
I agree with colehellsangel- I cannot think of anything specific that makes the entire love triangle clear or what EXACTLY happened. If anyone can think of when please share!
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 25, 2007 16:59:12 GMT -5
The fact is, even after Grams was dead ("Thank You For Not Morphing"), he walked out on his daughters again, this time with the knowledge that at least two of them (Piper and Phoebe) would have liked to remain a part of his life. And he stayed away for another two-and-a-half years.
I agree there was very little Victor could do while Grams had custody of the girls. But once they each reached adulthood, from what we know, Victor didn't even try (except in "Thank You For Not Morphing," when he walked out on them a second time). What was stopping Victor from looking up Prue or Piper at their colleges, and approaching them when Grams wasn't around?
Of course, it's implied that Piper found a way to get in touch with Victor after their failed reunion in Season 1 (at least, to the extent that she knew where he was living), most likely doing it behind the backs of Prue and Grams (and Phoebe didn't really care). So why didn't Victor start with Piper, who was apparently the only one of the Halliwell women who cared enough to have any semblence of desire to repair the damage caused by the Patty/Victor/Sam/Grams conflict? And Piper was the one who thought to send Victor a birthday card, even though he never remembered any of theirs' (as Phoebe pointed out).
I think it was extremely narrow-minded of Victor to generalize his negativity against ALL whitelighters just because of Sam's immoral behavior. The way Victor treated Leo in Season 3 was simply inexcusable.
It took having two grandsons whom Victor loves to pieces for him to overcome his prejudices. Victor also had prejudices not only against whitelighters, but against magic in general, since he was staunchly opposed to the girls being raised with magic in their lives.
I think he truly loved Patty, but I don't see the evidence that he loved Patty "more than" Sam. And I'm skeptical that, even if Grams had chosen to accept him, that Victor would have been a good husband when we saw what a bad father he was to the girls.
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 25, 2007 17:08:05 GMT -5
I don't blame Patty/Sam/Grams for this. The Elders were irrational and draconian with their silly system of "rules." If they had come clean to the Elders about Paige's existence, they probably would have had their magic stripped (along with whatever other punishment came with the Elders' whims), AND the Elders probably still would have taken Paige away from them (probably bringing Paige up to the heavens so she could be "raised properly"). By giving her up for adoption, Patty/Sam/Grams allowed Paige to have a magic-free childhood raised by responsible adults - - and prevented her from being raised as a brainwashed, indoctrinated stooge of Elderland.
I agree that Sam was a bad father to Paige in her adulthood. I disagree that he was a coward for fearing punishment from the Elders.
Up until this point (in fact, up until the Leo/Piper wedding), witch/whitelighter relationships were "forbidden" by the Elders...so none of the lower-level whitelighters really knew what the "unspeakable wrath" would be if they romanced their charges (obviously, the relationship in England between Simon Marks's father and his whitelighter -- as well as Simon's conception - - was kept secret and presumably magically cloaked from the Elders, for similar reasons).
How were the whitelighters supposed to be confident that the Elders wouldn't destroy or "recycle" them as punishment for having relationships with witches?
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 25, 2007 20:58:43 GMT -5
Yes I agree that his anger towards Sam should not have been taken out on Leo. That was definitely inexcusable.
Yes I agree completely. They were doing what was best for her by giving her to a home where she would be safe and normal until she was ready to become a Charmed One. Who knows what horrible life she would have had had the elders found her and took her away. If it was not for that I am willing to bet they would have of given up their powers in a second to keep her. According to Sister Agnes(the nun to whom newborn Paige was given) they came to her in warning that the baby was in danger and needed a good safe home indicating that they loved her and it was not their free will to give her up it was for her safety. I think it was a good choice because her life had the elders taken her away would not have been the life a child needs.
Plus it was a two for one deal because Paige was not only safe from the Elders she also got to grow up normally without worrying about the magical world until she was ready to open a spot in her life for it. This way she can grow up like a child should. This could not have happened had they kept her because Patty already has three daughters that actively use their powers which Paige would be exposed to and then conflicts with Victor would arise when he sees her bringing home this new child. Things would have become a mess.
So they did what was absolutely best mostly for Paige but for her family as well just to prevent conflict. Even without the elder problems the Helliwell home was not a good home for Paige due to what she is and more importantly how she was conceived. Very sad but unfortunately true. Plus back in those days It was like taboo to openly expose when a child's father is an affair man. Lets just say my mom can vogue for this because the father on her birth certificate is incorrect.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 25, 2007 22:49:46 GMT -5
I do. They had no idea how the Elders would react to Paige. And no one had even bothered to consider the possibility that the Elders would have NO RIGHT to take Paige away. How could they? To become a whitelighter, one has to AGREE to become one. It has to be about choice. The Elders couldn't even force Paige to assume whitelighter duties. They had to talk her into it. Gee . . . I wonder why they didn't consider the same for Prue, Piper and Phoebe.  This strikes me as a poor excuse. They give Paige away so that she could have a normal childhood, yet Patty and Grams didn't consider the same for Prue, Piper and Phoebe?  In danger from whom? The Elders? The only one who was in immediate danger of being punished was Sam, since he was the one guilty of breaking the rules. And you're trying to say that the Elders would have lashed back at Paige? You have any proof that they would have done this? Why would Patty and Grams allow their lives to be dictated by the Elders in the first place? If they had any brains, they would have realized that whitelighters had no authority over them. If the writers had any brains, they would have realized this. I don't agree. No one really knew if Paige was in danger of being harmed by the Elders. Why on earth would they harm an innocent infant? I believe that by giving Paige away, Patty and Grams caused a great deal of emotional hurt and future insecurity for her. And in my opinion, they had no real excuse for giving her away, except for their fears. |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 26, 2007 4:06:03 GMT -5
Sorry ljones but I just don't agree. And Patty did not give Paige away to give her a normal life that was just a bonus, it was to hide her from the elders. And the reason for not doing the same to Prue, Piper and Phoebe was because they would not have had children just for the purpose of giving them up sheesh. And Paige was illegal, unlike the first three girls; even more so in those days according to Leo. Which makes total sense because in the real world in those days it was so taboo that mothers put their husband's name on the birth certificate instead of the affair man who is the real father. The elders did manage to ease up slightly by the time Leo and Piper hooked up. So Patty being afraid of to tell anyone was not just about the elders but also human at least for those days. Back then it was like Taboo to make it known that your child's father is an affair man. I am not sure how much that has changed now if at all. But my mom's birth certificate is proof of this.
*****
On to a different subject, I watched P3H2O just now(yay thankies to my uncle for getting me season 2) and I have some evidence to show in court(lol).
This is the letter from Patty shown in the episode when Piper finds them in her jacket pocket after having forgotten about them due to the powder. I am not sure exactly what it indicates since it is not said but it appears to me to suggest that they possibly were indeed punished for being together in the form of the elders having separated them. The letter indicates that she did not know where he was for these two weeks because she asks if they have him guiding someone else. So that indicates to me that he was yanked away from her and possibly even was asked not to speak with her of what was going to happen. Because the way he loved her he wouldn't just take off without explaining to her and bidding her goodbye.
Or all of this theory could just be nonsense I am not sure since the show does not explain even when Patty is explaining Paige.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 26, 2007 4:52:56 GMT -5
This makes no sense to me, whatsoever.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 26, 2007 13:31:18 GMT -5
Sorry ljones but I just don't agree. And Patty did not give Paige away to give her a normal life that was just a bonus, it was to hide her from the elders. And the reason for not doing the same to Prue, Piper and Phoebe was because they would not have had children just for the purpose of giving them up sheesh. And Paige was illegal, unlike the first three girls; even more so in those days according to Leo. Which makes total sense because in the real world in those days it was so taboo that mothers put their husband's name on the birth certificate instead of the affair man who is the real father. The elders did manage to ease up slightly by the time Leo and Piper hooked up. So Patty being afraid of to tell anyone was not just about the elders but also human at least for those days. Back then it was like Taboo to make it known that your child's father is an affair man. I am not sure how much that has changed now if at all. But my mom's birth certificate is proof of this. All that has nothing to do with it. Paige wasn't illegal, she was illegitimate, which you're right, was a big thing back then. And it's always been up to the mother whether she puts the true dad on the birth certificate, both then and now. If the father wanted to acknowledge the child, she would.. But that's not why Sam and Patty gave Paige up. They gave her up because whitelighters and witches weren't supposed to do such things--and Piper and Leo proved why--had Piper and Leo not gotten married, at the end of the show, Leo would still be a whitelighter, one of Good's best weapons against evil, rather than Piper's errand boy and a teacher at the Magic School where all the kids could use their magic to have their way. Totally useless. As soon as they fell in love, the Elders should've taken him away and kept him away. So, no, the Elders *weren't* as strict by the time Piper and Leo came around--they let Piper and Leo get married for one reason and one reason only--because Piper and Leo saved their a$$es--a horrible reason, as was shown on the show. Nope, it doesn't. Here's what Patty told the girls in Charmed Again: |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 26, 2007 17:26:13 GMT -5
Of course that is totally the main reason, but I was trying to explain to ljones because she kept saying that the elders were no reason to give her up. So I was trying to say that the elders may not have been the only factor.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 26, 2007 21:29:57 GMT -5
To me, that conversation says that Patty and Sam did NOT get together until after Victor was shooed away by Grams, the reason I believe that Sam was a just a rebound, like Jack was for Prue, like Dan and Greg were for Piper, and like Jason, Myles, Drake, Dex and Coop were for Phoebe.
It also says that the Elders knew nothing about Patty and Sam being "together" or the Elders would've taken Sam away. What Patty was talking about in the note from P3 H20 is that the Elders had Sam off doing his job of taking care of his other charges. Obviously Patty was just like her second daughter, thinking that her lover should be with her rather than his charges.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 26, 2007 22:20:29 GMT -5
How do you know that Patty was telling her daughters the truth? The fact that Paige was born nine months after Phoebe's first birthday . . . and that Victor had left for good less than nine months after Phoebe's first birthday tells me otherwise.
In 1977? Single motherhood was no longer frowned upon by then. Especially in a city like San Francisco. We're talking about the late 1970s, not the late 1950s.
Grams didn't know squat. She and Patty had merely assumed that the Elders would take action against Paige. They didn't know. Leo had assumed the same when he wanted to marry Piper behind the Elders' backs. But when they finally learned the truth, only Leo was physically punished. That's because the Elders had no right to act as some kind of authority figure to the sisters.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 27, 2007 0:16:20 GMT -5
How do you know that Patty was telling her daughters the truth? The fact that Paige was born nine months after Phoebe's first birthday . . . and that Victor had left for good less than nine months after Phoebe's first birthday tells me otherwise. Where do you get the idea that the Elders would take action against Paige? The only thing that they were worred about is that the Elders would take away the sisters' powers. And *that* the Elders *could* do. Or it's just typical Kern being typically inconsistent!!  |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 27, 2007 1:31:24 GMT -5
To me, that conversation says that Patty and Sam did NOT get together until after Victor was shooed away by Grams, the reason I believe that Sam was a just a rebound, like Jack was for Prue, like Dan and Greg were for Piper, and like Jason, Myles, Drake, Dex and Coop were for Phoebe. Exactly if you look back to my first comments in this conversation I knew Sam was the rebound guy and not an affair. Patty just would not do that especially when her husband is the father of her three little children. Thats just horrible to do when you have kids, and Patty is a good person. So I figured that she was hurt when Victor left and angry at Grams for running him out so she could not go home and thus Sam was the only one to turn to. That and the letter I quoted proves that she also did in fact fall in love with him. So I think Paige's birth year is incorrectly stated somewhere. Ok yeah it was just throwing out an idea, but you make sense here. I am not sure she was pulling a Piper though not to the extent of Piper anyway, but rather she just missed him because Victor was gone and she loved him. But you are right that she seemed to be showing some Piper there as well. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 27, 2007 10:35:51 GMT -5
To me, that conversation says that Patty and Sam did NOT get together until after Victor was shooed away by Grams, the reason I believe that Sam was a just a rebound, like Jack was for Prue, like Dan and Greg were for Piper, and like Jason, Myles, Drake, Dex and Coop were for Phoebe. Exactly if you look back to my first comments in this conversation I knew Sam was the rebound guy and not an affair. Patty just would not do that especially when her husband is the father of her three little children. Thats just horrible to do when you have kids, and Patty is a good person. So I figured that she was hurt when Victor left and angry at Grams for running him out so she could not go home and thus Sam was the only one to turn to. That and the letter I quoted proves that she also did in fact fall in love with him. I think that Sam was always in love with her the way Leo was always in love with Piper, so once Victor was shooed away and she's hurt and vulnerable, he comforted her and one thing led to the next--hence the reason for the closeness in ages between Phoebe and Paige. When you're in love, of course you want your guy with you. But thinking about it, I now agree with you with the way Patty was willing to go after the water demon tells me that she understood that their jobs as witch and whitelighter were more important than their getting the chance to be together, something Piper never figured out, the reason the Elders shouldn't have allowed them to be married. Had Patty lived and had Sam lost his wings because he became an Avatar in order to save Patty's life and in order to help save the world even more than Brody did, I truly believe that Patty would've fought for him to get them back--Sam losing his wings was *his* choice, his self-punishment for losing Patty. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 27, 2007 17:43:29 GMT -5
Patty could have been referring to Paige's birth, or maybe even her conception (assuming Victor and Patty were divorced in the 1976 Christmas video).
That doesn't mean Patty hadn't cheated on Victor with Sam while she and Victor were still legally married.
I'd hardly call Coop a "rebound" when he went on to have three daughters with Phoebe.
This would be a good partial-explanation for Grams's sexism.
Or, it could have been because the Elders were reluctant to punish any of the Charmed Ones because they feared breaking up the Power of Three.
How were Grams and Patty supposed to be sure that the Elders wouldn't punish them? They'd probably never even seen an Elder, let alone talked with one. And with the Elders loving their hard-core rules so profusely, Sam and Grams's whitelighter probably struck fear into their charges' (Patty and Penny) minds as to what strict control freaks the Elders were.
Grams and Patty may have, in fact, feared not only Paige being taken away from them as a "punishment," but also Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. Would you want the Elders raising your children? I'd say it was a bigger risk not to keep Paige's existence secret.
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 27, 2007 18:00:08 GMT -5
Because they were more powerful than the Halliwell matriarchs. Basically, they could do whatever they wanted. That included taking Paige away from Sam and Patty (along with clipping Sam's wings and "recycling" him).
Who was going to stop the Elders from confiscating Paige and bringing her up to the heavens permanently (or until she came of age)? The Tribunal? No, because magic hadn't been exposed. An Angel of Destiny? Perhaps...but there's no evidence that Grams or Patty had even encountered an Angel of Destiny up until this point, so how were they supposed to know how the ethreal pecking order worked?
And if the Elders had been able to raise Paige with no interference from her legitimate parents (or from mortal adoptive parents), Paige probably would have become their indoctrinated lapdog who was more than willing to assume those duties.
Because Prue, Piper, and Phoebe were the products of a marriage between a witch and a full mortal. In their warped minds, the Elders saw it to be acceptable for Prue/Piper/Phoebe to be raised in the mortal world because their births weren't "forbidden."
How did Grams and Patty know that they wouldn't be punished, and their children taken away from them? This type of "forbidden romance" had never been uncovered by the Elders before, so the Halliwells had no idea what consequences they might personally suffer.
First, the Elders wouldn't have viewed taking full guardianship of Paige as "lashing back" at her. They would have seen themselves as protecting Paige from irresponsible parents.
And the Elders were perfectly content in trying to take Wyatt and Chris away from Victor in Season 8, when they thought the Charmed Ones had died in the battle against Zankou (although the Elders drop hints that they suspected the Charmed Ones weren't completely dead). Why wouldn't they do the same thing to magical parents whom they viewed as having "broken the rules"?
We're talking about the 1960s and 1970s, when the Elders probably didn't reveal themselves as much as they did (if at all) in the later seasons of Charmed.
And for all we know, the Elders may have held witches to much stricter standards the farther back in time you went, predating the Charmed Ones' arrival. Prue, Piper, Phoebe, and Paige managed to turn the Elders' system of rules upside-down through sheer will and power.
None of this had happened as of 1976. So Grams and Patty had every right to be paranoid to death about something that was so unknown and daunting to them.
But again, their fears were all they had to go by.
I doubt the Elders would have "harmed" Paige in terms of killing her. But it was very possible for Patty and Grams to assume that they would have taken Paige away forever, and neither of them wanted Paige to be raised by some uncertain force that they'd never directly encountered.
Do you honestly believe that, after punishing Sam, the Elders would have just allowed baby Paige to remain in Patty's care?
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 27, 2007 18:06:06 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly.
Mmm yes, thats totally true. Patty seemed to show consideration for Sam's job something Piper never did. However Leo always did. In the P3 H2O towards the end Leo is considering Patty and Sam and tells Piper that he worries about his being with her interfering with his job and of course hers too. Then in That Old Back Magic he starts favoring her being with Dan because he(Leo) can't give her a normal life which is something she needs. It seems it was only Piper that was not considerate at all.
Whereas with Patty and Sam they both knew they're jobs and place in life and considered those things before the chance to be together.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 27, 2007 18:29:13 GMT -5
I don't care how many kids he had with Phoebe. Coop was a rebound.
Yes. There is no reason why they would take Paige. She belonged to Patty. If they were unable to order Paige to assume whitelighter duties, why would you think they had the right to take Paige away? Patty and Grams had allowed their fears to get the best of them and they didn't use their brains. Because of that, Paige didn't get to know her family until she was an adult. I blame Patty, Grams and Sam very much.
And yet, she went ahead and had an affair with Sam behind Victor's back, anyway.
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