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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 11, 2018 1:00:01 GMT -5
Did anyone else find this episode strange?
The sisters didn't seem like themselves. Prue and Piper were too reckless using their magic in public and then Prue attacking innocents. I get they were making life hard but I dunno, everything in this episode seemed off. If they really just wanted to kill Prue off, the Apocalypse Not ending was way better for it
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 11, 2018 7:10:07 GMT -5
They were too reckless, almost to the point of it being completely unbelievable. Walking around the neighborhood in broad daylight, searching for a demon? It's beyond careless and stupid.
I liked the idea behind it, that their magic was exposed to the world and they were being hunted for it by reporters and crazy people. But it happened way, way too fast. No one in their right mind would become convinced of magic through that one news clip they were caught on fighting Shax. I could see someone crazy like Alice believing it was magic and stalking them, but no news reporters or anything like that.
It should have been built up over a much longer time, maybe half a season. Perhaps they're caught using magic in public by some nosy reporter who won't let go of the idea that there's something supernatural about them. He or she stalks them and gathers more evidence, and let others slowly know about them. The sisters are followed and asked questions when they leave the house.
Then maybe they make the reporter angry or are caught on video doing something undeniably magical, and the story is let out to the public. It spreads from San Francisco to the rest of the world over a period of a day or so, and the police get involved.
Then they have to find a way to reverse time to undo the whole thing from happening, or a way to erase the knowledge. Maybe this leads them to the idea that the only solution is to vanquish the Source, and afterwards to relinquish their powers, as they discover that no longer having powers means that all their previous ties to magic are severed and that the world will forget about their secret. So we have a super intense, two-part finale where they have to scramble to vanquish the Source and fight off demons who are ready to defend him, while also defending themselves from the police, reporters, and crazy people who want to get near them.
There's an intense battle, but they win, and let go of their powers to save the rest of their lives and be able to live in peace. Then the show can end with their destiny fulfilled and their normal lives returned to them.
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Post by askfreebie on Mar 11, 2018 9:36:48 GMT -5
Did anyone else find this episode strange? The sisters didn't seem like themselves. Prue and Piper were too reckless using their magic in public and then Prue attacking innocents. I get they were making life hard but I dunno, everything in this episode seemed off. If they really just wanted to kill Prue off, the Apocalypse Not ending was way better for it I thought Prue attacking the innocents made sense considering magic had already been exposed and her sister had just been shot.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Mar 11, 2018 17:02:56 GMT -5
Fantastic Elle Em and more believable than what we originally got which could've happened after Cole temporarily left the middle of season 3. The idea reminds of the season 1 episode where the reporter wanted to expose the girls to after seeing Prue use her powers.
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 12, 2018 7:08:43 GMT -5
Fantastic Elle Em and more believable than what we originally got which could've happened after Cole temporarily left the middle of season 3. The idea reminds of the season 1 episode where the reporter wanted to expose the girls to after seeing Prue use her powers. Thank you. I would like to see this type of thing perhaps being the end of the show, whenever that might be. It would make the sisters realize that humans are capable of just as much evil as demons. And perhaps they solve the whole thing with the help of Cole, who is still a demon at that point, so it further shows that good and evil aren't always what they appear to be. I can see it also setting the sisters up with a different outlook than they might have had before as they go on to lead the rest of their lives, constantly surrounded by people and a world that for a time (before they were made to forget somehow) were obsessed with the sisters and putting them in danger after they found out their secret.
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Mar 13, 2018 3:00:08 GMT -5
Fantastic Elle Em and more believable than what we originally got which could've happened after Cole temporarily left the middle of season 3. The idea reminds of the season 1 episode where the reporter wanted to expose the girls to after seeing Prue use her powers. Thank you. I would like to see this type of thing perhaps being the end of the show, whenever that might be. It would make the sisters realize that humans are capable of just as much evil as demons. And perhaps they solve the whole thing with the help of Cole, who is still a demon at that point, so it further shows that good and evil aren't always what they appear to be. I can see it also setting the sisters up with a different outlook than they might have had before as they go on to lead the rest of their lives, constantly surrounded by people and a world that for a time (before they were made to forget somehow) were obsessed with the sisters and putting them in danger after they found out their secret. It's just too bad we didn't see more of this on the show, human villains being used more frequently on Charmed. We didn't get too many witch hunters either.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Mar 14, 2018 3:16:04 GMT -5
Yeah Agent Jackman and Nathaniel Pratt were good human villains.
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Post by Sadrick on Mar 14, 2018 7:23:48 GMT -5
Human villains get a lot of flack for not measuring up to the same standards as supernaturally oriented villains. They're tender skinned, non-magical namby-pambies who have no "right" putting themselves on the magical chessboard.
Personally, I think unless you have them become artificial abominations like Dr Williamson, the best approach to reinforcing the danger element behind human villains is by playing up their connivingness, their strategic aptitude, their resources, their knowledge, and their personalities. If there's one area where humans are able to match or even surpass the monsters in shows like this it's depravity and intelligence. Plus, they tend to make some of the best "complicated" villains because of man's general capacity for doing both great evil and good.
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cyma
Witch
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Post by cyma on Mar 16, 2018 4:01:58 GMT -5
Even though I love this episode to death, I love analyzing it to death a lot more :-)
One irksome thing is why did Phoebe entrust Cole to warn Piper and Prue about Shax's attack after time reversal?
When she asked Cole if time reversal would affect them Down Here, Cole says no. I always assumed Underworld and those currently hanging around there won't be affected. If that's true, then Leo being with her in the Underworld won't be affected either. So why trust Cole instead of Leo of warning Prue and Piper? As far as to say if Cole doesn't warn them about Shax, they're dead anyway.
Leo is standing listening to everything as if Cole is the Ultimate Savior or something.
I guess a reasonable explanation is that Tempus had the power to choose who remembered everything. So making Leo forget everything was a high possibility. But Phoebe and Cole would be right there to tell forgetful Leo to hustle his butt to save her sisters and ask questions later.
Did both Phoebe and Cole expect Leo's butt to be viciously sucked out of the Underworld and go hurtling Up There once the reversal process starts? I guess with the way whitelighter magic reacted to healing Cole...that's an amusing possibility with Tempus magic.
But upon further thinking about time reversal affecting everyone else but the Underworld inhabitants, do demons who achieved their killing goals and now merrily skipping to collect bounty and reward in Underworld only to get a "Whoops. Tempus reversed time. You gotta kill that target again."
And when the demon fulfills his mission the second time and is again going for the reward:
"Oopsi. Today just isn't your lucky day is it pal? Tempus did it again. So off you go again. "
Or is there like an announcement among evil before Tempus is about to reverse time?
"Those who wish to retain memories of this day, please shimmer down to the Underworld. Those who had a crappy day and wish to forget, stay."
It's impressive that the evil suckers who had to repeat everything twice in Deja Vu episode did not end up either murdering the Charmed Ones, Rodriguez and Tempus in sheer frustration.
It's also frustrating that all powerful intelligent Tempus, depended on Rodriguez and him alone to kill the Charmed Ones. Like they would've easily been dead if Rodriguez had help from another demon in every loop.
Also the fact Tempus reversed time instead of letting things remain when both Piper and Phoebe were killed. It's not like Prue and Paige could form a Power of Three.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Mar 16, 2018 6:00:15 GMT -5
What I never understood was why Leo and Phoebe stayed in the underworld, so time resetting doesn't affect the underworld or the heavens dears. That once things were starting to reverse, Leo could have just taken Phoebe to the heavens so they could remember the time reset. They put too much faith into trusting what Cole said to warm Prue and Piper.
But cyma you bring up so very good points.
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 16, 2018 7:22:28 GMT -5
There were a lot of details not included in the time travel piece that made things confusing. Phoebe told Cole to warn her sisters, assuming that they would be brought back in time to before Shax's first attack. Why would she think that they wouldn't be brought back in time to a point later in the day, perhaps right before they were caught on camera? Or maybe midnight of that day at the very beginning, or 6:00 AM...it could be any time at all.
And wouldn't it be better to tell Leo to be ready to leave her and Cole right away so that he could be at the house to heal them just in case? Perhaps Phoebe was just being safe when she thought of the attack earlier in the day, but we also know that besides that, Piper was shot and killed. A whole lot of healing was needed in that house that day, and it makes no sense that Phoebe would send Cole of all people as a messenger when her sisters might not trust him and might not have the foresight to be able to prevent themselves from getting hurt anyway. It's best to send Leo, whom they do trust, so that they have a healer if they need one. He could then explain that Phoebe and Cole are in the underworld and need help.
But I guess the reason Leo didn't leave immediately was that he was reluctant to leave Phoebe in such a dangerous position, and also that he may have been prevented from leaving if there was a fight. Like if the Source came for Phoebe and everyone started fighting him off, perhaps it was enough of a distraction to where Leo couldn't leave right away to check on Prue and Piper. And we'll never know, but perhaps Phoebe lived because of something Leo did in the underworld to save her, and otherwise, she'd have been the one who died. And perhaps Cole had every intention of warning Prue and Piper of everything, but he too was caught up in the fighting and couldn't physically leave.
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cyma
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Post by cyma on Mar 16, 2018 8:48:45 GMT -5
What I never understood was why Leo and Phoebe stayed in the underworld, so time resetting doesn't affect the underworld or the heavens dears. It was never confirmed in earlier seasons that time reversal affected Up There or not. In season 7, Leo accidentally reversed time, Elders knew that time was reversed because they sensed a time shift but that's about it. But since time moves differently Up There (1 earth month equals probably 3-4 hours heavenly time) or at least the area Leo and Piper were detained in. Even if Tempus' powers touched there, reversal would probably be like a few nanoseconds backwards. Time difference is a very interesting form of protection I never thought of before. Whitelighters mourning for lost charges will be happy to get another chance at not being sucky whitelighters. Which doesn't explain Elders' behavior when it comes to not sending another whitelighter to heal dying Prue and Piper. They obviously must've known Leo was in the Underworld. In fact it seemed like an Elder's idea to reverse time using Tempus in the first place. While I get they probably may have recalled all whitelighters so they wouldn't be exposed either, but once everything went back to the beginning, why not send one whitelighter out of the many hanging around in heaven for healing? Does time reversal make whitelighters so sick that they puke uncontrollably or spontaneously combust? Or is their whitelighter transformation reversed, making them humans who turn old and wrinkly before exploding into dust? It's highly doubtful they could see time being reversed. And even if they could and they orbed, they would have to pass through Earth and would be caught in the reversal power themselves and then....perhaps forget everything? If not get killed(well Phoebe will) by a reverse speeding airplane or bus or car, huge crowd, or all of the above because they got trapped in going backwards themselves in the wrong spot. Kinda gruesome death to be killed by objects and people moving in reverse and be totally helpless to stop it. But besides that, the condition of time reversal was if Phoebe stayed down in the Underworld and joined evil, only then time reversal would take place and she could bring Piper back to life. So if the deal was not honored by Phoebe, I suppose Piper would've dropped dead? Even after time reversal? Atleast that's what Phoebe and Leo would've feared and not risked making a break for it if they could for the Heavens.
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Chris
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May the day shine on all of you wonderful people :)
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Post by Chris on Mar 16, 2018 10:50:02 GMT -5
Ahh, yes, All Hell Breaks Loose. I remember there being a discussion about this, I think a year ago? Some people are convinced that there's an alternate/secret ending to the episode, but there's really not. Now my problem with this episode is that they started it out as if it were in the middle of the episode. What I mean by that is as the episode started, they rush the innocent in, Phoebe claims to have had a premonition, and then Shax attacks... All very rushed. I would have liked to have seen the premonition Phoebe had received. I would have liked to see how the CO's met Williamson and his first initial reaction.
All in all, an odd, weird episode indeed.
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Post by gzv969 on Mar 16, 2018 11:24:52 GMT -5
At least we got to see more of the manor and its surroundings since it was actually shot on location at the actual manor. like when prue and piper were walking down the side of the house after going out the kitchen door. We never really saw where that door led till this episode.
But you are all right, though a great episode, there was so much recklessness in it.
1. Why look for shax on the street? Why would he be there? Usually they would try and summon the demon.
2. Why was going after cole at this particular time so important for phoebe instead of staying to ensure the power of three spell she just got was used on shax? Phoebe also did the same thing in “Witch Way Now”. Wanted to skip out to go to cole in the middle of them dealing with agent jackman.
3. Why would the Source allow shax to keep attacking in public. Wasn’t he also afraid of exposure?
4. Even if Shannen couldn’t return they could have at least filmed how cole, Leo and phoebe escaped from the demons that were on their way to detain cole and kill phoebe. Maybe they could have gotten around it by showing piper and prue already taken to the hospital after an anonymous 911 call was made. Leo gets to the hospital but prue was already pronounced dead on arrival and is already in the morgue, but piper is still critical so he heals her. No need to show us prue. A black bag in the morgue would have worked
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Mar 16, 2018 15:06:30 GMT -5
Actually in Pardon My Past Anton took Phoebe out back and around the corner of the manor to the end bit where some delivery men were taking some supplies inside which I assumed was the back kitchen door and the pathway leading up to that from the driveway was seen on the right.
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Post by gzv969 on Mar 16, 2018 15:57:42 GMT -5
Actually in Pardon My Past Anton took Phoebe out back and around the corner of the manor to the end bit where some delivery men were taking some supplies inside which I assumed was the back kitchen door and the pathway leading up to that from the driveway was seen on the right. I never noticed that. Now I’m going to watch that episode again 😊
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 16, 2018 17:51:54 GMT -5
2. Why was going after cole at this particular time so important for phoebe instead of staying to ensure the power of three spell she just got was used on shax? Phoebe also did the same thing in “Witch Way Now”. Wanted to skip out to go to cole in the middle of them dealing with agent jackman. 3. Why would the Source allow shax to keep attacking in public. Wasn’t he also afraid of exposure? 4. Even if Shannen couldn’t return they could have at least filmed how cole, Leo and phoebe escaped from the demons that were on their way to detain cole and kill phoebe. Maybe they could have gotten around it by showing piper and prue already taken to the hospital after an anonymous 911 call was made. Leo gets to the hospital but prue was already pronounced dead on arrival and is already in the morgue, but piper is still critical so he heals her. No need to show us prue. A black bag in the morgue would have worked Phoebe did have a bad habit of putting Cole before her sisters, AHBL being the worst. But you'd think she'd have learned from that and not abandoned Piper and Paige in Witch Way Now. Shax is very powerful and dangerous, but is almost too stupid to live. If I recall, Cole got the Source to agree to ask Tempus to reverse time because evil was exposed as well. If Shax's ideas were to attack the Charmed Ones anywhere, whether in their home or on the street, surely the Source would have sent someone else. It wouldn't matter if he succeeded because if he's so careless as to constantly risk exposure, time would either be reversed, undoing whatever he managed to do, or evil's secret would be out. I agree, there were definitely better ways to start season 3. Beginning in the underworld with Phoebe and Cole fighting the Source's demons and Leo perhaps staying behind to help would have been great. All we needed was one or two minutes of fighting, perhaps with Phoebe yelling to Leo to leave and save her sisters, but something prevents him from doing it. He either saves Phoebe's life or is knocked unconscious or something, but he can't just leave when he wants. And I like your idea of showing Piper in the hospital because of a neighbor's 911 call, or maybe they're still at the house and "Prue" is covered by a sheet while the paramedics work on Piper. Phoebe, Leo, and Cole get back, discover the scene, and push the paramedics away while Leo gives them the memory dust or Phoebe says a quick spell to get them to forget everything they've seen in the house. Leo is able to heal Piper but Prue has run out of time. They don't have to show her at all if she's been covered up, or they could have a stunt double and just show her without us seeing her face.
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Post by gzv969 on Mar 16, 2018 22:37:53 GMT -5
2. Why was going after cole at this particular time so important for phoebe instead of staying to ensure the power of three spell she just got was used on shax? Phoebe also did the same thing in “Witch Way Now”. Wanted to skip out to go to cole in the middle of them dealing with agent jackman. 3. Why would the Source allow shax to keep attacking in public. Wasn’t he also afraid of exposure? 4. Even if Shannen couldn’t return they could have at least filmed how cole, Leo and phoebe escaped from the demons that were on their way to detain cole and kill phoebe. Maybe they could have gotten around it by showing piper and prue already taken to the hospital after an anonymous 911 call was made. Leo gets to the hospital but prue was already pronounced dead on arrival and is already in the morgue, but piper is still critical so he heals her. No need to show us prue. A black bag in the morgue would have worked Phoebe did have a bad habit of putting Cole before her sisters, AHBL being the worst. But you'd think she'd have learned from that and not abandoned Piper and Paige in Witch Way Now. Shax is very powerful and dangerous, but is almost too stupid to live. If I recall, Cole got the Source to agree to ask Tempus to reverse time because evil was exposed as well. If Shax's ideas were to attack the Charmed Ones anywhere, whether in their home or on the street, surely the Source would have sent someone else. It wouldn't matter if he succeeded because if he's so careless as to constantly risk exposure, time would either be reversed, undoing whatever he managed to do, or evil's secret would be out. I agree, there were definitely better ways to start season 3. Beginning in the underworld with Phoebe and Cole fighting the Source's demons and Leo perhaps staying behind to help would have been great. All we needed was one or two minutes of fighting, perhaps with Phoebe yelling to Leo to leave and save her sisters, but something prevents him from doing it. He either saves Phoebe's life or is knocked unconscious or something, but he can't just leave when he wants. And I like your idea of showing Piper in the hospital because of a neighbor's 911 call, or maybe they're still at the house and "Prue" is covered by a sheet while the paramedics work on Piper. Phoebe, Leo, and Cole get back, discover the scene, and push the paramedics away while Leo gives them the memory dust or Phoebe says a quick spell to get them to forget everything they've seen in the house. Leo is able to heal Piper but Prue has run out of time. They don't have to show her at all if she's been covered up, or they could have a stunt double and just show her without us seeing her face. I like your idea even better. Keep everything in the manor.
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Sasha
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Post by Sasha on Mar 16, 2018 23:07:11 GMT -5
Phoebe did have a bad habit of putting Cole before her sisters, AHBL being the worst. But you'd think she'd have learned from that and not abandoned Piper and Paige in Witch Way Now. Shax is very powerful and dangerous, but is almost too stupid to live. If I recall, Cole got the Source to agree to ask Tempus to reverse time because evil was exposed as well. If Shax's ideas were to attack the Charmed Ones anywhere, whether in their home or on the street, surely the Source would have sent someone else. It wouldn't matter if he succeeded because if he's so careless as to constantly risk exposure, time would either be reversed, undoing whatever he managed to do, or evil's secret would be out. I agree, there were definitely better ways to start season 4. Beginning in the underworld with Phoebe and Cole fighting the Source's demons and Leo perhaps staying behind to help would have been great. All we needed was one or two minutes of fighting, perhaps with Phoebe yelling to Leo to leave and save her sisters, but something prevents him from doing it. He either saves Phoebe's life or is knocked unconscious or something, but he can't just leave when he wants. And I like your idea of showing Piper in the hospital because of a neighbor's 911 call, or maybe they're still at the house and "Prue" is covered by a sheet while the paramedics work on Piper. Phoebe, Leo, and Cole get back, discover the scene, and push the paramedics away while Leo gives them the memory dust or Phoebe says a quick spell to get them to forget everything they've seen in the house. Leo is able to heal Piper but Prue has run out of time. They don't have to show her at all if she's been covered up, or they could have a stunt double and just show her without us seeing her face. I like your idea even better. Keep everything in the manor. Me too! I don't get why they could not have started S4 from the POV of Phoebe in the underworld. Have Leo leave Phoebe to go heal Piper and Prue, and then comes back straight away to bring her back. Once Phoebe returns, Prue is dead and covered by a sheet. Maybe we don't even see Phoebe uncover the sheet to see Prue's dead body and react, but just close up on Leo's face, then cut to the sheet back on Prue and then her body is wheeled away by the paramedics. Then Piper tells Phoebe she will not accept Prue being dead and promising to do everything she can to find a way to bring Prue back, then you can cut to the start of S4 in the attic. I just didn't like Charmed Again with how they constructed the story - Acting aside it was a very poor way of mourning Prue and introducing Paige, the pacing needs fixing. For me, the entire first episode would be all based on Prue's death and getting ready for the funeral. If I had to still include Paige in the first episode, she wouldn't appear at all until the very last 2 minutes finding out about Prue's funeral. Part 2 can open with the funeral service. That all I can think about for now. I wonder if they had any original drafts that showed the story in the underworld right after S3? I wonder if they did have an early draft in mind for how to open S4, even after Shannen was fired but more from Phoebe's POV with her, Cole and Leo in the underworld.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Mar 17, 2018 6:50:27 GMT -5
I'm sure there's many fanfics out there alternate or not which rectified the end sitution. Gzv969 when you mentioned about the back door it got me thinking about Pardon My Past having remembered the bit where Anton and Phoebe went out back by the kitchen door and so looked it up on YouTube to be sure. Here's the link. m.youtube.com/watch?v=LDICDsncKrISorry the audios not english.
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