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Post by MarAcev on Jul 12, 2006 11:04:24 GMT -5
How about we talk about Piper's evolution from neurotic, stressed out, insecure middle sister to head witch, wife, mother, business woman and older sister?
What changed? What stayed the same?
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 12, 2006 13:15:30 GMT -5
Well, I hardly regard this as pointless arguing. I was simply correcting the record. (And, I might add, receiving some clarification for my own vaguely misleading views for which I am grateful.) Someone mistakenly wrote that Piper was a graduate of Baker High in 1992. That led to speculation about whether she had skipped a grade, etc., etc. Since mistakes were being bandied about, it was high time to correct some of these, as well as pinpoint the sources of those errors. Since everyone keeps referring to the family tree in Pardon My Past as a source of information for some things, can we all agree that the family tree is NOT a good reference point. (Penny's date of birth is ludicrous, as someone pointed out; Prue's is erroneous). Headstones might be a better source, but as we've all noted Paige's headstone is all messed up in Centennial Charmed. Besides, there are "lots of different pieces of contradicting information" as asserted above. There are four: the family tree; the headstone in Centennial Charmed; the change in birth month of Piper; and, the timeline between Virginia and Salem (with respect to Melinda Warren).
So, having said all of that, here's a different question: Did Piper forget to change her watch's time in AHE? No, wait that wouldn't help. It would be three hours later in Virginia (regardless of the fact that uniformity in time did not come about till much later.) But, hey, Piper: it's broad daylight when you claim it's 6 pm. Back East, where I hail from, at 6 pm on Halloween that means it's getting darker. Since in 1670 they didn't have Daylight Savings Time, there still would be some light at 6 pm, but not the amount depicted in that scene? Forget about the watch. Look at the heavens. Wasn't that the point of this episode? Telekinesis, freezing and premonitions were akin to the modern technology represented by the watch. They didn't have those powers then and were forced to learn the rudiments of witchcraft. So, Piper: forget about the watch!
We'd all like to move on, but it becomes irritating when that's used as an excuse to cop out. Sure, none of this can ever truly be resolved. We were neither story writers nor story editors. Lord knows, I would have loved to have been a story writer or editor on Charmed.
As for the wikipedia reference, well thanks. But, wikipedia is certainly not an extremely reliable source. Garbage in, garbage out. A fact that the Elders at wikipedia acknowledge as they choked off some of their key items to additional entry without editorial vetting.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 12, 2006 13:28:08 GMT -5
How about we talk about Piper's evolution from neurotic, stressed out, insecure middle sister to head witch, wife, mother, business woman and older sister? What changed? What stayed the same? Your question is an interesting one, although it perhaps presupposes an answer by use of the word evolution, a word that implies change. Did Piper really become less neurotic or stressed out? I, for one, don't think so, although the cause of that neurosis or stress may have changed as the seasons moved forward. Certainly, the death of Prue forced her to become leader of the pack. Combine that with the boost in juice, and Piper became a fighting machine who left many (but not all) of her insecurities behind. Remember that the sisters' powers are tied to their emotions. Prue's ability to move things telekinetically may have had something to do with the intense rage and resentment that she carried inside her. On the one hand, Prue was able to sublimate some of that energy into her professional career. On the other hand, what better way to blow off steam than to violently whisk something out of the way? Piper's ability to freeze emanated from fear. Since fear and insecurity are closely related, there's a consistency here. Yet, Piper is a Gemini (see all my comments above). Above all else, a Gemini is two-faced. Piper can be immensely fearful, yet she also has tremendous drive. How else could she become a business woman? The aggressive side of her Gemini persona - as a witch - did not develop until the end of Season 3 when her powers grew to include not just the ability to freeze (fear response), but to accelerate molecular motion in order to explode things (the ambition turned to rage over the death of Prue). This side went completely bonkers in Hell Hath No Fury when Piper went on a rampage and became a Fury. In response to your question, then, Piper not only becomes less insecure, she becomes more whole. She will constantly need to balance her feelings of fear, along with her propensity to rage. Not an easy task, I might add. Look at the consequences in Oh My Goddess Part 2 and Valkyries.
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Post by MarAcev on Jul 12, 2006 16:33:05 GMT -5
I don't think so either, but she did change when it comes to being more sure of herself as a witch, not necessarily on her personal life. She always carried with her the fear of being abandoned and unfortunately it turned out to be not just a neurosis but a reality when she lost so many people in a short time.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 13, 2006 2:32:48 GMT -5
What do you make of her take charge attitude in Vaya Con Leos? Here is a woman who, faced with the certainty of loss, is willing to challenge those who would stand in her way, be they the Angel of Death, Elders, Avatars or the Angel of Destiny. Does this not suggest someone who has become much, much more confident?
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Post by MarAcev on Jul 13, 2006 9:23:37 GMT -5
Oh yes, of course. However, I think this is a quality that she developed before Prue died and thanks to having to go against the elders in order to be with Leo. Before that she was shy and submissive in some ways. After she decided that she was how should I put this; going all the way in her relationship with Leo, she was all in, then she became a fighter. After everything the elders put her and Leo through I think she understood that she had the right to having a life without them ruling over it and she always fought for that (except season 6 which I still maitain was horribly out of character for her). Then after Prue died it just amplified it and she became even more take-charge out of necessity.
By the time in season 7 when Gideon (an elder) had killed Chris and made Leo go bonkers I'd say she completely lost any respect towards the elders and it made her all the more "take charge" because they weren't doing anything for her, she only depended on herself. She took it upon herself to save Leo and get him out of that funk that Chris' death and Zola's murder left him with and again, without any help from anyone. And that's probably one of the reasons why she became much more confident, she had to learn to work by herself and trust that she could do it.
She definitely took a lot of beatings through the course of the 8 years which forced her to change and develop qualities that she didn't really have in the begining.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 13, 2006 13:08:19 GMT -5
I would say it was a quality that was tentatively in the making during Seasons 2 and 3. One impetus was her opening up P3. In Season 1, her activities at Quake were hardly mentioned, except as a place where cops and warlocks sometimes showed up. Indeed, in Deja Vu we get the sense that Quake was a wrong turn for Piper, a step she corrected by taking a chance on P3.
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Post by ljones on Jul 13, 2006 13:40:29 GMT -5
I would say it was a quality that was tentatively in the making during Seasons 2 and 3. One impetus was her opening up P3. In Season 1, her activities at Quake were hardly mentioned, except as a place where cops and warlocks sometimes showed up. Indeed, in Deja Vu we get the sense that Quake was a wrong turn for Piper, a step she corrected by taking a chance on P3. I always thought that P3 was a big mistake on Piper's part. At least personally. Sure, it turned out to be a financial success, but it was still a mistake. Piper's dream was to be the owner of her own restaurant. But when the time finally came, she decided to take the safe road and open a nightclub instead, because the nightclub was less of a financial risk than a restaurant. Piper had compromised her own dream in order to be safe. And I find that sad.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 13, 2006 15:33:24 GMT -5
Well, duh! She didn't compromise her dream. She postponed it. Get real. We all have to make such decisions at some time or another unless we are independently wealthy. Dream deferred, but not denied! That's not sad. It's a fact of life in a society where the wealthy are few and the gap between rich and average grows wider day by day, while the middle class is utterly devastated by tax policies favoring the rich and the incredible greed that CEOs foist upon hapless stockholders.
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Post by MarAcev on Jul 13, 2006 19:13:09 GMT -5
Piper also had to compromise her dream of being a chef to work at a bank and pay Gram's medical bills and I find that very noble of her. I also agree with vandergraafk that we all have to do it at some point and it's not like she didn't have a chance to go back to that dream. She just postponed it.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 14, 2006 1:31:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the reminder from Pre-Witched. And, yes, Grams came down very hard on Piper for opting to work as a bank teller in order to save the manor and pay for Grams medical bills. Noble indeed!
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Post by piperpink on Jul 14, 2006 7:21:53 GMT -5
Piper by far the best character on the show
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jul 14, 2006 17:32:19 GMT -5
Well, duh! She didn't compromise her dream. She postponed it. Get real. We all have to make such decisions at some time or another unless we are independently wealthy. Dream deferred, but not denied! That's not sad. It's a fact of life in a society where the wealthy are few and the gap between rich and average grows wider day by day, while the middle class is utterly devastated by tax policies favoring the rich and the incredible greed that CEOs foist upon hapless stockholders. When did Piper resume her dream to be the owner of a restaurant? Did it happen in the finale? I hope so, for her sake. If not . . . I still find it sad. Why should it? Because she became the oldest? Since when is it a rule that the oldest always have to be the leader? I think that Paige was the best candidate to lead the Charmed Ones.
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Post by MarAcev on Jul 14, 2006 17:49:09 GMT -5
Precisely. That's too bad because she became a directionless airhead. Paige couldn't be the leader because she didn't know a thing about magic and Phoebe was always too wrapped up in herself and Cole to lead anyone other then herself. Piper had to become the leader, even if it wasn't a job that she was originally qualified for or that she asked for.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 15, 2006 16:37:53 GMT -5
Paige could hardly become the leader of the Charmed Ones. She first had to establish a bond with her new found siblings. Then, as their common experiences mounted in number and importance, she could then carve out her own niche among the three sisters. For Paige, she and Phoebe would always be close: their own rebellious natures as youngsters ensured that. Of course, the Cole thing really threatened to upset that applecart; but, as Paige explained to Leo in Centennial Charmed, everything she (Paige) did was to protect Phoebe and help her overcome Cole.
Paige and Piper, however would always be more akin to Prue and Phoebe. There was a lot that Paige could not possibly have known about the sisters past. Thus, Paige would always accidentally make mistakes that Piper would have to deal with. For example, Paige's fascination with Belthazor and later the water demon (A Witch's Tail) evinced consternation because Paige simply had a lot of catching up to do.
After ten years of bonding, I can imagine Paige taking a leadership role. But, I don't believe there's a guarantee of this. Her dual nature (whitelighter and witch) would prevent her from really becoming the leader of the Charmed Ones. Phoebe could always become a leader, if she had been allowed to develop her powers to become a visionary of sorts. But, absent this, Piper more than adequately filled the void.
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Post by HollysFan on Jul 15, 2006 18:46:23 GMT -5
Phoebe could never lead. From the moment she met Cole, she became too absorbed in herself and her quest to find love. Paige led when she needed to. Like when Piper was falling apart after Phoebe joined Cole in the Underworld. But as far as leading the Charmed Ones permantely, I just could never see it happen. I think becoming the oldest is a valid enough reason as to why she became the leader. She had to take care of Phoebe, and on top of all that a new sister, who she also had to teach about the craft.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 15, 2006 23:23:07 GMT -5
Never lead? If you confine yourself to the way Charmed evolved, then you are no doubt correct. I would make a case, however, that the end of the Avatar saga pointed out one possible way Phoebe could have asserted herself. This, too, was soon drowned in yet another lovelorn Phoebe story arc: Drake!
However, I should refer you to the excellent article in Totally Charmed by Jennifer Dunne. Titled "Will the Real Phoebe Please Stand Up,", this article points out ways in which Phoebe could have become the leader of the Charmed Ones.
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Post by HollysFan on Jul 16, 2006 8:46:47 GMT -5
Which is my point exactly. She was too consumed in her love quest and herself. And anytime she got the oppurtune moment to take charge, as you pointed out above, it was thrown out the window with another boy toy.
But I have that book you're talking about and I'll definitely go read that article.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 16, 2006 16:00:29 GMT -5
By all means! But remember: Phoebe does not independently decide her fate. She is a puppet in the hands of the writers' imaginations or lack thereof!
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Post by MarAcev on Jul 16, 2006 19:20:19 GMT -5
I say again, we can't use the "the writers made her do it" excuse because what are the characters if not what the writers do for them?
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