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Post by charmedforlife28 on Feb 21, 2017 13:55:32 GMT -5
You truly don't think I don't?  Please don't mix me up with other fans. I've always hated the way Piper reacts to a loss. It's all part of her turning into Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper, my second-least-favorite character on Charmed, right behind Freebie/PhoeME. It's why "Hell Hath No Fury" is one of my least-favorite episodes. But that does not change Cole from being what he was in S5 - an obsessed stalker. And you can't blame Phoebe for reacting the way she did towards that obsessed stalker once she admitted that even if she still loved Cole (IF she ever did....), she knew that he could never stay good because he had been a mercenary demon for almost a hundred years and who had proven that he couldn't stay good for the simple reason that he'd rather be a strong demon than a whimpy mortal. Like "Charmed", you always seem to think that two wrongs make a right - that just because the Charmed Ones do wrong, that justifies Cole doing wrong. I've never agreed with that, and it's probably what I hate most about "Charmed". It's also why I'll always wish they'd never shown my favorite episode, "Morality Bites", so maybe I could believe that on this show the wrong thing done for the right reason *is* the right thing. But thanks to that episode, I can't. I know this is late but can you explain what happened in Morality bites that showed you that two wrongs don't make a right. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 21, 2017 20:25:05 GMT -5
Of course. Phoebe killing Cal Greene because he killed her friend and got away with it. What happened when our Charmed Ones showed up never would've happened if she hadn't done that. Her killing someone who had killed didn't make killing him right.
This whole thing tells the tale well (bolding mine):
If this episode had never aired, then Phoebe, of all people, and Paige setting up Rick Guttridge to be murdered or plotting and murdering the Jenkinses (neither was self-defense) or Chris murdering the Valkyrie just so that he could have her pendant or again Phoebe, of all people, and Paige soul-raping Darryl wouldn't bother me as much as it does, because it would mean that in the Charmedverse, ends justify means, when this episode shows so clearly that it doesn't.
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Feb 21, 2017 22:52:21 GMT -5
Oh so you feel that it set a precedent that they should not kill someone just because it will help others and in the later seasons they don't take responsibility for their actions and instead say how they had to do it to protect innocents?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 22, 2017 1:56:26 GMT -5
Oh so you feel that it set a precedent that they should not kill someone just because it will help others and in the later seasons they don't take responsibility for their actions and instead say how they had to do it to protect innocents? *nods* Exactly so - although later, they very seldom mentioned protecting innocents. It was always "one of us is in trouble and we'll do anything to get out of the trouble, even if it means killing humans." Which makes sense if ends justify the means, but not if the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing. |
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Post by imdb lives on on Feb 22, 2017 9:35:43 GMT -5
Which made them seem so weak instead of the world's most powerful witches.
I do blieve he shared some blame as he could've told Phoebe long before it took complete control. I know he was worried about losing her, but did he really think she could stay with the demon who murdered her sister and was the devil?
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Post by linamorgana on Feb 24, 2017 16:22:38 GMT -5
I don't really think Cole really had a choice in the matter because the seer was always talking about "Cole fighting to the surface" and messing up any plans for becoming the Source - making it sound like Cole was in fact, possessed and his humanity was burdening even the Source's essence taking over him, though not powerful enough to stop him from getting vanquished
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Post by imdb lives on on Feb 24, 2017 22:55:23 GMT -5
I always thought Cole was there. But the show was always so inconsistent on who was in charge. One minute The Source is making Phoebe his demon bride and the next wanting to save Paige for her. This needed a whole season to make sense of it.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Feb 25, 2017 8:01:21 GMT -5
I think, with Cole it's a long and complicated story itself. For a long time he was Belthazor, yet was also a lawyer in the normal world. When Phoebe entered his life, he wanted to be more human like than demon like, though Phoebe knew about it. Then, when his powers as Belthazor are stripped for good, Cole felt weak and powerless (as said before). Now with the fighting the Source and with it, the Hollow comes into the game, all turns upside down. The Seer manipulates anyone around her to take the powers in, hence Cole the Source and with Phoebe and the Seer ordering the Hollow back to its place, the Source's powers remained within Cole. At first he fights against it but at one point, he lost. I can't remember exactly which episode but this is my opinion!
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Post by charmedagain4 on Feb 25, 2017 22:11:44 GMT -5
Since I LOVE to give my opinion on this subject, I am going to say that there are always three sides to a story. You can look at Cole being the Source as a complete possession by the Source, possession by the Source's powers or both. I like to think of it being both as Cole is possessed by the Source himself right along with his powers.
I like to explain like this. When the Hollow was put back in it's box, the Source's powers went into Cole's evil void first. An episode or two later, it is shown that the Source's powers are getting more control of him as they now have become a being now inside of him, the Source himself in his image. Although Future Phoebe convinced him to tell Phoebe and he was about to because Future Phoebe emotionally reached Cole and not the Source, it was the Source who seems to fully take over in the last minute and prevent Cole from telling Phoebe.
After the struggle between Cole (human half) and The Source (Belthazor), the Source seems to have full control of Cole. But due to Cole's strength against evil now, he still fights with the Source inside of him. He eventually convinces the Source to have Phoebe as his bride to keep her safe as well as her family. My belief is Cole manipulated the Source to think he will become more powerful with a Charmed One, but Cole knew his own goal is keeping his wife and her family safe.
Eventually, in Long Live the Queen, he seems to still take a slight control of the Source, but not enough. What I think about towards the ending of the episode is that Cole put those events into motion. Both Cole and the Source wanted to kill the innocent , but Cole wanted to kill him only because it would cause and give more motivation at the sisters and Phoebe to vanquish them, but the Source thought he could still manipulate Phoebe into choosing his side again. But Cole knew that Phoebe would always choose her family over anything else.
As you read these excerpts from the scripts, think about what I have said.
In Long Live the Queen,
Phoebe: Cole is gonna kill Greg Conroy, and I can't let that happen.
Piper: So what do you wanna do?
Phoebe: I think that we have to vanquish Cole.
Paige: I knew it, I knew she was ready.
Phoebe: We have to use Greg as bait.
Paige: Bait? But he's an innocent.
Phoebe: I know, but Cole's looking for him, he'll find him wherever he is so he's safest here.
Piper: So we have Leo bring Greg here but then when Cole arrives Leo's gotta orb Greg outta here.
Phoebe: And then we vanquish Cole.
Paige: I'll get the crystals.
(Paige goes upstairs.)
Piper: Phoebe, um, I know how much you love Cole, I'm really...
Phoebe: I can't get emotional about this now, Piper, if I do I won't be able to go through with it.
(Paige comes back down with the crystals.)
Paige: Ready.
Piper: Leo, bring Greg.
(Leo orbs in with Greg.)
Paige: So how long do you think till Cole gets here?
(Suddenly, Phoebe changes into Cole.)
Cole: Sooner than you think.
(Cole throws a fireball at Greg and he is incinerated. Cole flames out.)
[Cut to the living room. Piper, Paige and Leo orb in. Cole walks into the living room.]
Paige: You evil son of a bitch.
(Piper blows up Cole and he disintegrates into fragments which fly around in a circle. Paige places the crystals on the floor around him.)
Piper: Phoebe, get out here and help us damn it. (The fragments of Cole is pulled back together.) Paige.
(Cole hits Paige and is knocked across the room. One of the crystals she was holding bounces along the floor.)
Cole: Don't make me kill you.
(Piper blows up Cole again and Leo heals Paige.)
Piper: Phoebe, you heard what he said, he's gonna kill us, help us!
[Cut to the bathroom. Phoebe is leaning against the door, sobbing.]
Phoebe: Forgive me.
(She goes into the living room. The fragments of Cole is pulled back together and a fireball appears in his hand. Phoebe picks up the crystal that bounced across the floor.)
Cole: (to Phoebe) I'm sorry, it's, it's for the best.
Phoebe: I know it is.
(She walks over to Cole and the fireball disappears. Phoebe kisses him.)
Piper: Phoebe?
(Phoebe moves away from Cole.)
Phoebe: I'm sorry too.
(She places the crystal in its place and the trap is activated.)
Cole: Phoebe, no. No!
Phoebe: I'm sorry, baby, I'm so sorry.
Piper: "Prudence, Penelope, Patricia, Melinda..."
(Fire appears near Cole's feet.)
Phoebe: "Ashford, Helen, Laura and Grace..."
Cole: I will always love you.
In the Three Faces of Phoebe,
[Scene: Underworld. A dark cave. Cole walks in, topless, holding a sword. He looks around. He sees the Source across the room, chanting with his back turned. Cole creeps towards him and is about to swing the sword.]
The Source: Wait.
(The Source faces Cole and lifts off his hood. It's Cole.)
Cole/The Source: You don't really wanna kill me do you?
Cole: But how...
(Cole/The Source hits Cole and he lands on the ground. The sword flies up to Cole/The Source.)
Cole/The Source: We're one now. I'm reborn, within you.
Cole: I'll fight it. I'll kill us both if I have to. I won't let you hurt Phoebe.
Cole/The Source: You won't have a choice.
(He stabs Cole and he screams.)
[Cut to Phoebe's bedroom. Cole wakes up from his dream with a fright. He looks over at Phoebe, who's sleeping.]
Cole ultimately knew that the only way to stop Phoebe from hurting and save her and her family was to kill himself and the Source inside of him. He set those events in the end into motion and saved Phoebe, her sisters, and Leo.
As he was being vanquished, the Source was the angry one and yelling, but Cole took his chance while the Source was dying to reach the surface. Cole was only able to tell Phoebe that he will always love her just before he is vanquished and finally giving Phoebe and her sisters and Leo some relief that the Source is gone.
So I believe that Cole was the innocent in this more than most think. This wasn't Phoebe or her sisters' fault, it was completely the Source and the Seer's doing. Prue and Piper were right in Exit Strategy about Cole being considered as an innocent and he was for longer than that.
The Source's powers went into Cole's evil void and filled up to eventually became the Source himself right when Cole got the chance to finally tell. This is why Cole couldn't tell anyone what was happening afterwards.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2017 1:49:48 GMT -5
Evil void?
So, when Phoebe and Paige had set up Rick Gitteridge to be murdered by demons and soul raped Darryl, was this their "evil voids" at work? Does the same goes for Leo, when he murdered Gideon? Or when Chris murdered the Valkyrie (or ies)?
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Post by charmedagain4 on Feb 27, 2017 19:35:22 GMT -5
Evil void? So, when Phoebe and Paige had set up Rick Gitteridge to be murdered by demons and soul raped Darryl, was this their "evil voids" at work? Does the same goes for Leo, when he murdered Gideon? Or when Chris murdered the Valkyrie (or ies)? Cole had an actual evil void that was once encompassed by Belthazor. After Belthazor was vanquished, the evil void was empty. He wasn't Belthazor anymore. The difference between him and the others is that he was an actual demon and they are humans. They didn't have an empty void where something evil was vanquished inside them. |
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Post by unakite on Mar 3, 2017 6:14:05 GMT -5
I believe Cole was in perfect control and he was a smart Source
As member of the Brotherhood of the Thorn, he had interests in the human world
for a long time
Cole had an orderly mind, good at planning and he had great ideas about how to make Underworld more strong and cohesive
He was a demon for a lifetime, I think it's logical he was attracted by the idea of having the supreme power
His mistake was to believe that he should have all, the power and the Phoebe
Cole was about to reject the offer of the Seer, but he was flattered by the idea of the powerful son
Cole accepted the proposal from the Seer knowing full well the risks of this proposal but ready to face it
Iin this way he looks like Prue, he loves the risk and is overly self-confident
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Post by Sadrick on Mar 18, 2017 8:52:06 GMT -5
Cole wanted to feel some kind of control in his life. He's the sort of man who craves the desire to not be controlled or manipulated by others. He prefers to be his own man fulfilling his desirous wants and needs -- even when he's human you can catch glimpses of this discontent inadequacy through his delayed realisation that he lacks the ability to teleport or his persistent need to assert himself as a protector for the one he loves by purchasing a weapon so he can feel important and needed once again.
Does this all mean he intentionally forsook everything he was hoping to build with Phoebe for this primal inclination for strength and authority by embracing the Source? I doubt it. If there was anything that meant more to Cole than his need to have a stalwart identity it was the love he had for Phoebe; this is exemplified by the divisive mental antagonism his mind concocts to separate the Source from himself. Near the end of his downward spiral he had the approached the edge of self-immolation for the sake of not losing Phoebe in these ambitions. You could say he became complacent afterwards when Phoebe joined him on the other side, but up until that point he was very distinctly wrestling with this iniquity festering inside himself.
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Post by unakite on Mar 21, 2017 14:54:27 GMT -5
Too often obsession is mixed up with love
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Post by Sadrick on Mar 23, 2017 1:39:15 GMT -5
It doesn't help that Phoebe encouraged, on several different occasions, Cole to continue pining for her by pursuing him when he spurned her advances. Plus, her sister did infect Cole's already tumultuous mind with a spell that made him hypersensitive to Phoebe's sentiments of love for him at the beginning of Season 5.
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Sept 12, 2021 9:42:06 GMT -5
I don't really think Cole really had a choice in the matter because the seer was always talking about "Cole fighting to the surface" and messing up any plans for becoming the Source - making it sound like Cole was in fact, possessed and his humanity was burdening even the Source's essence taking over him, though not powerful enough to stop him from getting vanquished This. Cole was possessed by the Source, and his demise in Long Live the Queen would've made a beautiful tragic ending, had S5 not tarnished that and being the only one to "cheat death", kind of. The point of Cole's character is to be a tragic character. What would've made a beautiful tragic story was ruined, when they decided to bring him back and just ruin his character. I cannot express how much I despise his return for S5. No, thank you. In my head, he died and NEVER came back! He served his purpose and isn't allowed to be in the living world, anymore. No matter how much I love him and Phoebe & Cole, together, their story was over, when she killed him, in S4E20. Anyhoot, Cole was possessed by the Source. If he was fine with being taken over by the Source; he wouldn't have struggled to fight against the Source. I don't fault the sisters, when theyr're possessed, therefore I don't fault Cole being possessed, either. |
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Feb 19, 2022 2:58:35 GMT -5
Bumping up this thread, as this topic seems relevant within this community, again, during our re-watches. Comments during S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe" regarding this topic: Hey, look! Cole is being possessed! So it's NOT a possession as so many fans believe. It's clearly stated here. It's his powers. So it's NOT a possession as so many fans believe. It's clearly stated here. It's his powers. I suppose that's why he unwilling fire teleported, as well. And right here, he tried to say something, but the Source wouldn't let him. It's a possession. The episode is SO inconsistent. One second, they say its his powers not the Source himself possessing Cole, then next its said its the Source. LOL And, the Seer is ambiguous and vague, on purpose. She's correct that the Source's powers will shield him from Phoebe's premonitions until S4E19, but that doesn't mean she's being honest with how the powers are being implemented via willingly or possession. But, it's possession, as you can see him fighting off being fire teleported away. So it's NOT a possession as so many fans believe. It's clearly stated here. It's his powers. That's what I've always thought and everyone thought I was wrong. Nope. The episode is SO inconsistent. One second, they say its his powers not the Source himself possessing Cole, then next its said its the Source. LOL Just remember that the Seer can and does lie. That's what I've always thought and everyone thought I was wrong. Nope. Cole awkwardly fighting off being fire teleported is a clear sign of unwillingness to being fire teleported away. If that's not possession, IDK what is. "The Source is getting stronger, in you", come on now. POSSESSION! See, the Seer is a liar, so I would take everything she says with a grain of salt. She's smart with her words and knows what she's doing and is playing everybody, including Source Cole. The Seer is so smart and lies well. She knows exactly what she's doing. The Seer is so smart and lies well. She knows exactly what she's doing. Including not being completely honest with the possession happening with Cole. "The Source took you over" - Possession count number 3...or 5 LOL Okay, maybe he is possessed, but a weird sort of possession. Okay, maybe he is possessed, but a weird sort of possession. It reminds me of S1E15 Is There a Woogy in the House? and Phoebe's possession of the Woogy. Okay, maybe he is possessed, but a weird sort of possession. Yeah, I think the writers just are not doing a good job making that clear in dialogue. The wording can be off in some parts. Yeah, I think the writers just are not doing a good job making that clear in dialogue. The wording can be off in some parts. I can somewhat agree to that but even the Seer is not being honest about it and is using Source Cole for her own personal vendettas. I'm thinking it IS possession. Because in the next episode they make it even more clear. I'm thinking it IS possession. Because in the next episode they make it even more clear. I've always said it was possession and always pointed out this episode, not the one I'm quoting, but the one we're watching, right now. As it started, here. LIAR! If only he loved her enough to tell her the truth! LIAR! If only he loved her enough to tell her the truth! He tried, but the Source won't let him. wondering what would've happened if he loved her enough to tell her the truth so they could find a way to get the Source out of him. wondering what would've happened if he loved her enough to tell her the truth so they could find a way to get the Source out of him. Like I said, he tried, but the Source stopped him. Remember, when he unwillingly fire teleported and tried to tell Phoebe, but he got a massive pain, in his head, after leaving the bathroom, when he tried to tell her? I do know Cole's soul found another way to tell Phoebe the truth, when it comes to S4E19 We're off to see the Wizard, when she got the premonition. And, in S4E22 Witch Way Now? he told Phoebe she did the right thing but killing him. Comments during S4E15 "Marry-Go-Round" regarding this topic: We've been through this. Cole's love for Phoebe still exists within me, I can't overcome it. If I'm to regain what I've lost it has to be with Phoebe, marrying her. We've been through this. Cole's love for Phoebe still exists within me, I can't overcome it. If I'm to regain what I've lost it has to be with Phoebe, marrying her. Sorry, Charmed. If the Source is truly possessing Cole, that love would not exist. That's NOT possession! Think of what happened when the Source possessed Shane. Now THAT'S possession. That's why I don't think Cole was ever possessed and part of why I abhor this storyline. Sorry, Charmed. If the Source is truly possessing Cole, that love would not exist. That's NOT possession! Think of what happened when the Source possessed Shane. Now THAT'S possession. That's why I don't think Cole was ever possessed and part of why I abhor this storyline. It's a weak attempt of the writers saying "love is the strongest power, that no amount of evil can destroy it". And, regarding Shane's possession, obviously he didn't truly love Paige. It's a weak attempt of the writers saying "love is the strongest power, that no amount of evil can destroy it". And, regarding Shane's possession, obviously he didn't truly love Paige. To add more to this, even Prue mentions how hard both Phoebe & Piper fought against their respective possessions via Woogy (Phoebe) & Wendigo (Piper), in S1E18 "When Bad Warlocks Go Good". Sorry, Charmed. If the Source is truly possessing Cole, that love would not exist. That's NOT possession! Think of what happened when the Source possessed Shane. Now THAT'S possession. That's why I don't think Cole was ever possessed and part of why I abhor this storyline. The show really didn't understand themselves. I certainly am confused, because I continue to go back and forth. And then there's this part: But you are right, about how it worked differently when The Source possessed Shane, that was true possession. So, The Source is in the drivers seat controlling Cole, and that love shouldn't exist. But you are right, about how it worked differently when The Source possessed Shane, that was true possession. So, The Source is in the drivers seat controlling Cole, and that love shouldn't exist. Then, Piper & Phoebe weren't truly possessed either 'cause the way Prue worded it in S1E18 "When Bad Warlocks Go Good". Comments prior to the showing of S4E17 "Saving Private Leo" regarding this topic: I don't think he was possessed by the Source - if he was, he wouldn't feel Cole's love for Phoebe since he would've totally taken over Cole, the way he did when he possessed Shane. YAY!! So glad we get to re-watch an episode I actually want to watch. Although I don't remember if Phoebe and Cole ruin it the way they ruined so many others once the power of the Source went into Cole. I don't think he was possessed by the Source - if he was, he wouldn't feel Cole's love for Phoebe since he would've totally taken over Cole, the way he did when he possessed Shane. Good points. If it was truly possession and they wanted to show that to the audience, they'd have shown slight slip ups. Like Cole trying to fight control over his own body. Like Piper and Phoebe had with the Woogy and Tera. Even Shane had that moment I think too. But we didn't get those moments. Good points. If it was truly possession and they wanted to show that to the audience, they'd have shown slight slip ups. Like Cole trying to fight control over his own body. Like Piper and Phoebe had with the Woogy and Tera. Even Shane had that moment I think too. But we didn't get those moments. They did (S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe"), when he left the bathroom and tried to tell Phoebe the truth, but the Source wouldn't let him. Heck, he even struggled with refusing to being fire teleported away/standing. And, I've repeated this point, non-stop, but it just seems like no matter how much I say it, it gets ignored/swept under the rug, until this narrative that "Cole is not possessed" gets brought up, again, like an agenda. I'm sure there's plenty of threads to have this discussion, but it seems like this narrative doesn't want to be had, in there. Instead, it just keeps mindlessly popping up to try to push this point without actually being challenged. I even created a video about it, on YT, of all of the S4E14 clips regarding Cole's POSSESSION: So, let's have this conversation/discussion. Was Cole possessed, or did he make a choice? And, if it was a choice, please explain why you think it was a choice. |
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 19, 2022 5:53:28 GMT -5
I've never really commented on this subject before because of the arguments I've seen from fans over the years about whether Cole was possessed or not some toxic even which I think isn't worth it over a show and the fact I wouldn't want people biting my head off over my opinions so I've kept my mouth shut.
On the whole, I do think Cole was possessed by the Source after taking in his powers which the Seer lied about before releasing the Hollow plus the subsequent scenes on screen with Cole fighting to not flame out and some of the dialogue used as if the Source was talking in the third person but then there were times script-wise when the writing was flipped around and I'm like okay is he possessed then or just has the Source's powers within him which confused me somewhat.
Of course, lots of fans have different opinions on what they think possession actually is some think it's a person or people void of any feelings with one mission on their minds to spread evil or kill whoever so when the Source possessed Shane which was shown on screen or when Tera was within Piper that to them is possession obviously. Others might think a person can love someone, especially if the person they possess is in a relationship at the time like Cole and Phoebe and regarding what level of control said evil has on the person it can be shown them trying to fight what's happening like Cole did a couple of times before the Source gained full control.
With Paige and Shane, they'd just started dating so no attraction was ever really felt, unlike Cole and Phoebe who'd been together a year so one could argue that could be partly why the two possessions were shown different onscreen the only thing I would've liked which still frustrates me to this day is that the content in this storyline had remained consistent throughout so I didn't question anything then.
Unless we have a writer say something now about the subject back in the day fans won't ever know the truth but just make up their own mind what they think occurred.
One thing I will say is I disliked the way they handled the Source/Cole's death with Piper and Paige outrightly wanting to kill him. I would've much preferred them trying to dispossess Cole before had they known he was possessed but couldn't because the Source was too powerful with Cole managing to get through somehow telling them to end him of course.
I also believe Phoebe chose to be Queen Of The Underworld herself and not because the fetus was controlling her as she didn't start taking the Seers tonic until the next episode.
What I would've liked in season 5 is her being held accountable for what she did admitting she chose to be Queen Of The Underworld and that what happened to Cole was her fault some part overall.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 19, 2022 7:34:46 GMT -5
I decided to repost my original post from the first page. I still believe all of this. For a long time, I’ve believed that what Cole did as the Source wasn't his fault because he was possessed by the Source. But I've found out that I was wrong. Everything he did *was* his own choice, so his own fault. I still do believe that he became an obsessed stalker in Season 5 and should've understood the word NO, but not in Season 4 as I thought before. Unlike many others, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I have been. It doesn't make me like S4 any more - it makes me like it less - but that's what is. Here's the thread from another site that convinced me: The Original Poster (the OP) wrote: How did the sisters not know Cole was possessed by the Source? They knew that it was something passed on, so obviously Cole was being possessed. It's not just his eyes that gave it away. Common sense makes it obvious that a human (which he was before being possessed) cannot handle evil powers, even when not being possessed. The sisters just chose to blame Cole. Another member replied: They knew it was something that was passed on but that doesn't always equate to possession.
Cole could have willingly accepted the Source's powers for all they knew. They didn't have any evidence to say Cole was doing anything against his will. He'd been a demon for a century before trying to suppress that half and live a life as a human to be with Phoebe. Throughout all of his human episodes it showed he couldn't cope with the "boredom" of it.
In the end, evil took over again, but it was always a part of him.
There's a huge difference between Cole inheriting the powers of the Source and being lured back to the dark side, which he spent 100 years a part of and, say Prue in "Bride and Gloom" when she was entirely controlled against her will.
I always thought the dream sequence shown at the beginning of "The Three Faces of Phoebe" showed that him inheriting the dark powers essentially was too attractive for him and figuratively killed his humanity.
It wasn't that he was forced against his will to do anything like an actual possession, but was weak to evil and eventually embraced it. Through that whole arc we saw him battle with the two sides to him, the dark one won out.
Granted, the story seems a jumbled mess in retrospect and could have been written a hell of a lot better either way. My comment: AMEN! But the OP thought otherwise: I don't see it like that. To me, the Source is the Charmed world's answer to the Devil and no human can withstand the thrall of the Devil. Unless that human is Arnold Schwartzenegger.
The thing that annoyed me about it though, is Phoebe's complete lack of giving a sh!t. Why didn't she ask Cole what happened? She could have tried to understand how it all started, but she clearly didn't care if he was possessed or if he had willingly taken on the role. Her attitude towards him proved to me, that she didn't love him as much as she made out. I replied: She always loved the lawyer, never the demon. And once she really saw the demon in action (and remember - she never realized that he was possessed - the reason she never asked - she had no reason to - rather than her asking, he should've told her) she gave up on him.
Same for him. He couldn't get it through his thick skull that she couldn't love that part of him and that part of him was an important part of him. Rather than stalking her he should've left her alone.
Season Five made such a mockery of their so-called love. I'll never forgive Kern for doing that to them. The OP replied: If she really loved him, that would have been a reason to ask. She had already seen his dark side. The way she didn't give a crap about Cole just seemed like pure lazy writing.
He stalked her because he was crazy. It was well established in S5 that Cole's powers and Phoebe's rejection had driven him to insanity. Not that Phoebe cared. To her, he should have "moved on" in the wasteland. I always wondered where she thought he would "move on" to. She gives great advice. The other member replied: That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Except The Source, as we later discovered, was not a being who could possess someone, but it was a status that came with the Source’s power. Cole was more than a human. As the Seer described it, he still had an empty void in his soul. When the Hollow was returned to its box and the powers it had absorbed were returned to their original owners, with Half-Face (the previous Source) vanquished, his powers filled that void – not Half-Face, but his powers, the powers that made Cole the Source.
If it was a straight forward possession the story arc would have been a lot simpler. But then the Source never would've loved Phoebe or wanted her as his queen and we wouldn't have had that plotline.
It basically happens on repeat in season 5 when he is no longer The Source. He's consuming power and feeding his demon half, something no matter how much he wants to embrace his human half he can't. Both sides are a major part of him. He can't have one without the other. Hence his need for Phoebe, his human half longed for that love but his demon half craved power, blood lust, war etc.
The entire arc wasn't written clearly though, nor was it written to the best it could have been. I replied: Exactly so. I'll keep saying that she never truly loved *HIM*, but rather loved the him she wanted him to be - and ditto for him never truly loving *HER* but rather the her he wanted her to be - someone who could love the demon - but that only happened when she was under the influence of the Seer and her potion. The OP replied: Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
He was partly taken over by the Source, which isn't that different from possession. The fact that he still had good in him that was strong enough to make the Source of all evil capable of love, gives him a lot of credit imo. His love must have been very strong to contend with the most evil entity in the universe. The other member replied: Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source. I replied: Because she assumed (and, yes, you're right, she assumed wrong) that his evil side got the better of him - that he *couldn't* keep his evil side under control even with her love - again, why wouldn't she think that that's the reason?
Again, he never gave her a reason to even consider that he might be possessed, and worse, he never told her. If just once he'd been like Piper was when she was possessed by the essence in "Coyote Piper", when she did everything in her power to try to let her sisters and Leo know what was happening.
He never did.
Face it. He didn't like being mortal. He liked being strong. And he was when he was the Source. If he could have that as well as Phoebe, then why tell her that he was possessed??? The OP replied: That's because Piper's body had been taken over, but that's not exactly how it happened with Cole. He didn't have two fighting sides. His sides seemed to merge. Coke couldn't tell Phoebe because he was no longer just Cole. Piper could ask for help because her mind was unaffected.
Why would the writers want to send out the message that obsession can battle evil? Cole's love for Phoebe is what stopped the Source from killing her. The other member replied: Yes he did. The episode right after he consumes the Source's powers ("The Three Faces of Phoebe") he is visibly struggling with the two sides. He eventually willingly accepts his role as The Source but still holds onto his love for Phoebe.
They even go to the extent of making it blatantly obvious by opening the episode with a dream sequence of two Cole's fighting. Notice how the Source side of him is still represented by Cole and not some other being or the Half-Faced demon as well as the human side, they are both as much a part of him as each other.
His love for Phoebe was still strong enough for him to continue to want her, wanting her to be his Queen but not strong enough to make him want to be something he didn’t want to be - human.
He didn't kill her because he loved her and wanted her as his Queen. There was no indication that he wanted to kill her as the Source, or battled with one half hating her, one half loving her with love winning out. He always wanted her alive and ruling the Underworld with him.
His love for her was whilst he was evil, but it clearly wasn't something that would make him good, nothing could because he was evil. His love for her may have at one stage in early season 4 made him WANT to be good but as evidenced from the episodes when he was just human he always longed for the other part of his life back. He couldn't be good, it wasn't him.
Where is this indicated? Cole as the Source never attempted or showed any desire to kill Phoebe.
Bearing in mind the half-faced demon, Cole and the Seer are entirely different demons/people who held the status as the Source at different stages, because when the power went into them, they embraced it. Therefore Half-Face’s desire to kill the Charmed Ones had nothing to do with Cole's reign as the Source.
Now going back to this:
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
That's what I'm saying, it's NOT possession. It became a part of him, a part he accepted, the same way he had accepted Belthazor as a part of him for almost a hundred years. Possession is taking control of someone's body against their will. Cole had the powers thrust upon him and struggled but then ultimately accepted them.
The fact he still loved Phoebe and was still capable of love IS big thing you're right. But that's where Phoebe had her choice, keep this demon alive because he genuinely loved her or vanquish him and save countless lives and tip the balance of power back over to good.
For one of the few times in her life, she made a mature, totally unselfish choice, just like when she told her sisters to let her burn. I’m not sure which one hurt her more, but in both cases, she knew she was making the right choice. The OP replied: His sides seem to merge eventually though, unlike Piper in Coyote Piper, where it was made clear that Piper and Terra were two completely different people occupying one body. Could anyone resist the Source's powers? Humans cannot handle taking in good powers, so how are they supposed to handle evil ones? Especially when it comes from the Source?
That's why I believe Cole's character appeared to merge with the Source. He never indicated he wanted to hurt Phoebe, because his evil side was surrounded by his love for Phoebe. I think that if it was literally two sides battling it out, this would not have been the case.
It's my opinion that Cole's love for Phoebe stopped him from killing her. I'm not sure if Esmeralda was responding to my comment about Cole loving Phoebe or not when she claimed it was obsession.
The sisters believed it without proof. Sure, Cole could have willingly accepted the Source, but they didn't know and they also didn't seem to care. Indication or not, they should have been curious. Especially Phoebe.
I disagree that he simply accepted the powers. I don't think the situation is that black and white. Has it ever stated in the show that anyone can resist the Source's powers? I would imagine it wouldn't be a matter of simply accepting them, but more a matter of having no choice. Phoebe vanquishing Cole was understandable, but her attitude towards him in the aftermath was terrible. The other member replied: Except Cole wasn't any old human, he was one who had lived a century as a demon, a powerful demon, one of the most powerful demons. Throughout his Belthazor-free episodes he longed for the power again. He couldn't live as just a human, not even for love of Phoebe. He was tempted, lured by the Source's powers, not the same thing as possession. He certainly made a choice. He could've told the sisters what was happening, he chose not to.
They become one, because they are one. Cole is the Source. The Source isn't controlling him or possessing him or holding him against his will, Cole IS the Source.
Again, there's no indication in the show itself that he even wanted her dead to begin with. Cole wanted Phoebe as his fellow ruler of the Underworld.
Without proof of what? Cole was a demon who tried to kill them, who had been evil for a hundred years, evil which they were fighting. He claims to have switched sides for a while and love Phoebe before reverting back to evil. There's not much to question. Otherwise they'd have questioned whether he was really good when he made his decision to be with Phoebe, wondered whether he was possessed.
He was still Cole, Cole was now ruler of the Underworld. Nothing to save him from, nothing to change, nothing to do.
When a demon who came into your life trying to kill you, then married your sister and then revealed himself as the Source, when he's confronted about it has no remorse, still wants your sister but you did, why on earth should they be curious about anything?
You're thinking of it from a viewer's perspective – a viewer who only wants to see Cole as good, so you think all the other characters should see him the same way - and not from the other character's perspective.
You can't really disagree about simple facts. You're suggesting something that simply wasn't in the show, just like Esmeralda often does. But if you point out the facts as shown on the show to her, she’ll admit that she was wrong. I hope you can do the same thing. Because you are.
Half-Face, the previous Source, possesses people in Charmed Again, Part 1, THEY can't resist his powers and control. Cole could. Like I said, being the Source is accepting power and status, something which Cole accepted. He didn't reach out for help from them, even when he was discovered, even AFTER he meets with Phoebe in the wasteland and in season 5 he makes no suggestion that he was under control, or didn't have much of a choice with the Source's powers. There's absolutely no indication of what you're suggesting.
Even in season 5, we're shown Cole driven mad not just by his love (or obsession depending on your viewpoint) of Phoebe, but driven mad by trying to resist the major amount of power he has. Cole can't cope without power so he indulges a little bit and then a little bit more.
He thinks it's okay to have this power or that power which leads to more and more and more and before you know it he's unnaturally invincible and driven insane because it's a part of him.
Phoebe's attitude was entirely understandable. How many times did she believe him and try to help him only for him to indulge evil again? Try to kill her or her sisters again? I'd be completely angry/annoyed/uninterested in him if he came back for a gazillionth time especially when it was shown how much she was hurting over it. And the fact he came back as a crazed stalker. People always call Phoebe a b!tch in season 5 without considering her side of the story. Who on earth wouldn't be a b!tch to that crazy bastard?
Cole's problem was he wanted everything at once and couldn't. They did this on a smaller scale in Long Live the Queen, when Phoebe wanted to be with Cole and her sisters, but she learnt the lesson that she couldn't and made a choice. The OP replied: Was it stated in the show that Cole could resist the Source? I missed that part. I honestly can't remember it ever being mentioned. Cole may have been a demon for 100+ years, but he was human when he became the Source. I don't see how he could have resisted the ultimate evil, unless it was stated in the show. I haven't watched every episode in S4 for a while. I'll have to check it out. The other member replied: That's not strictly what I meant. By resist I meant, not want to be The Source. To reach out to the sisters for help. When they discovered who he was he could have told them he was possessed etc. that it wasn't his fault. Not even when Phoebe visits him in the Wasteland does he mention being taken over/controlled by the Source. All because he willingly accepted the Source because the power and status were attractive to him. Human or not at the time he became the Source, demons, power and murder were all he knew. Without it he wasn't content in his life. The OP replied: I just don't think it's that simple. I think that something may have been stopping Cole from coming clean. He knew that he would lose Phoebe by becoming the Source and yet he still did it. I think he loved her too much for that. I've always believed that it wasn't as easy as simply confessing to the sisters. Something was stopping him and it wasn't desire for power. What good would power be without Phoebe? I don't think he had it planned to make her evil from the start. The other member replied: Hence the fact he wanted her as his Queen, and wanted to conceive a child with her BEFORE coming clean about who he is.
That's all well and good but there's nothing in the story to suggest this. Unless I've forgotten some details, you're welcome to refresh my memory.
As I said further up the thread, it wasn't the most well written or consistent story but Cole's state of mind and feelings about Phoebe were spelt out pretty clearly. He wanted the power, the status AND Phoebe. Her becoming his Queen and using a child to further seal his connection with her.
It's not as simply as confessing to the sisters, no. But we'd have had some reference to the Source not being what Cole wanted to be after the story ended. But we didn't. In season 5 Cole wouldn't have been so quick to try to convince Phoebe "I promise I've changed" etc if he wasn't personally to blame. It's a bit like an alcoholic indulging in their weakness and then when they're sober promising to never do it again and they'll change and before long they've been tempted again and give in again. I replied: Thank you. Season Four and Cole as the Source never made sense. This does.
And it proves what I always thought - what Cole did as the Source WAS his own fault! The other member replied: I hope it makes sense. I started to confuse myself after the fourth post. 
Oh right. I always presumed you blamed the sisters for not saving him. I must have read it wrong. I replied: Hehehehe! Well, reading the whole thing, it truly does make sense - to the point where I'm going to post it at other sites where I was convinced that he *was* possessed, and therefore what he did was not his fault.
That's because I was convinced that he was possessed, so it wasn't his fault, and the sisters should've figured it out and saved him - which is what I would've preferred over the mess that we got - have him totally possessed, like Shane was in "Charmed Again", let the sisters realize it (and had it been Prue, not Paige, as it should've been, Piper and Phoebe would've been more likely to believe her), let them save him by separating him from the Source and vanquishing the Source.
And even though I generally don't like ambiguous characters, preferring them to be black-and-white, I must admit I like your grey Cole a lot more.
It still doesn't make me like the story arc any more than I did nor does it make me want to watch it, nor do I think that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole and not just the lawyer, the Cole she wanted him to be but could never be, nor do I think they are soul mates; it just makes the storyline as played on the show make a whole lot more sense. The other member replied: Ah. That's good then.  Even the OP is now convinced: I'm also definitely taking your opinion on board. You've given me a slightly different perspective on the whole thing (and it's usually hard to do that because I'm quite stubborn And the other member replied: I have sympathy for Cole myself at various points. It can't be easy when the two biggest things you want or crave for in life, you can't have them at the same time because they are such polar opposites. He was a very tragic character.
When you dissect a storyline/character like this though you realise just how good the material is really. It's just a shame Charmed always glossed over a lot of this stuff to go straight to the easiest/quickest conclusion. It robs the story of itself and leads to all this ambiguity. AMEN! |
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Aaeiyn
Elder
✨The Amazing Phoebe✨
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Aaeiyn on Feb 19, 2022 14:28:32 GMT -5
I decided to repost my original post from the first page. I still believe all of this. Yeah, I read all of this, and none of it counters my points that I've made. It's just repeat jargon and nothing new. Very clearly, you can see Cole fighting against being fire teleported away. That's a clear sign of fighting against that power. You're focusing too much on S4E2 "Charmed Again, Pt 2" Shane's possession and not other possessions like S1E15 "Is There a Woogy in the House?" Woogy Phoebe who still ended up freezing despite after that scene, Prue even says there's still a little bit of Phoebe in her, when she's trapped with her, up in the attic. And, S1E12 "The Wendigo" Wendigo Piper who still froze a flare bullet, even though she was a full on Wendigo, at this point. And, Prue's speech in S1E18 "When Bad Warlocks Go Good", when she expresses the internal struggles both Piper and Phoebe went through just to stay good, sounds a lot similar to Cole's struggles. I'll only accept "Cole was not possessed", as long as we acknowledge neither was Woogy Phoebe nor Wendigo Piper. As all of those possession arcs are synonmous to one another. EDIT: As Phoebe (my opinion of her in S1-S4, anyway) loves and craves power, so she enjoyed the powers that the Woogy gave her. She even thanks it, for them, down in the basement but when commanded to kill her own sisters, she struggled with that command. EDIT 2: And piggy backing off of what Melinda Halliwell said I also believe Phoebe chose to be Queen Of The Underworld herself and not because the fetus was controlling her as she didn't start taking the Seers tonic until the next episode. What I would've liked in season 5 is her being held accountable for what she did admitting she chose to be Queen Of The Underworld and that what happened to Cole was her fault some part overall. Even the dialogue of what Phoebe says in S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" correlates to my statement of Phoebe craves and likes being powerful. So, being Queen of the Underworld was enticing and seductive, for her because being Queen of the Underworld = power. IK (time and time again) you (as in Es and not Melinda) HATE Phoebe this way, but I hate to break it to you she's ALWAYS been this way. She's been this way since S1. Look back on S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin", and the way Alyssa Milano uses her facial expressions to translate the thoughts going through her character's head, as Prue's hand turns into the "Hand of Fatima". Phoebe looks ecstatic! And after words says "very cool". I don't agree with your OP portion of Phoebe not loving ALL of Cole because IK she does, and she reiterates this in S5E2 "A Witch's Tail, Pt 2". Even after all of the stalking Cole did, deep down, it didn't really bother her, as much as you think it did. I just think she doesn't want to be with him because everytime they try people around them get hurt. Which she explains in S5E4 "Siren Song". And, to her, their love isn't worth the risk of hurting other people, around them. Not to mention the seductive side of evil. And, S5 Phoebe grew out of seeking and wanting power, once she realized what the true sacrifice really means. As we see her struggling with her new fear in S5E7 "Sympathy for the Demon", that she's evil because of those desires she had in seeking power. EDIT 3: S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" is the REAL Phoebe, warts and all. And, I can't wait for that episode to come, in our re-watch xD |
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Please don't mix me up with other fans.
