Post by Esmeralda on Dec 28, 2013 19:17:49 GMT -5
For a long time, I’ve believed that what Cole did as the Source wasn't his fault because he was possessed by the Source. But I've found out that I was wrong. Everything he did *was* his own choice, so his own fault. I still do believe that he became an obsessed stalker in Season 5 and should've understood the word NO, but not in Season 4 as I thought before.
Unlike many others, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I have been. It doesn't make me like S4 any more - it makes me like it less - but that's what is.
Here's the thread from another site that convinced me:
The Original Poster (the OP) wrote:
Another member replied:
My comment: AMEN!
But the OP thought otherwise:
I replied:
The OP replied:
The other member replied:
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Except The Source, as we later discovered, was not a being who could possess someone, but it was a status that came with the Source’s power. Cole was more than a human. As the Seer described it, he still had an empty void in his soul. When the Hollow was returned to its box and the powers it had absorbed were returned to their original owners, with Half-Face (the previous Source) vanquished, his powers filled that void – not Half-Face, but his powers, the powers that made Cole the Source.
If it was a straight forward possession the story arc would have been a lot simpler. But then the Source never would've loved Phoebe or wanted her as his queen and we wouldn't have had that plotline.
It basically happens on repeat in season 5 when he is no longer The Source. He's consuming power and feeding his demon half, something no matter how much he wants to embrace his human half he can't. Both sides are a major part of him. He can't have one without the other. Hence his need for Phoebe, his human half longed for that love but his demon half craved power, blood lust, war etc.
The entire arc wasn't written clearly though, nor was it written to the best it could have been.
I replied:
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Exactly so. I'll keep saying that she never truly loved *HIM*, but rather loved the him she wanted him to be - and ditto for him never truly loving *HER* but rather the her he wanted her to be - someone who could love the demon - but that only happened when she was under the influence of the Seer and her potion.
The OP replied:
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
He was partly taken over by the Source, which isn't that different from possession. The fact that he still had good in him that was strong enough to make the Source of all evil capable of love, gives him a lot of credit imo. His love must have been very strong to contend with the most evil entity in the universe.
The other member replied:
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
I replied:
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
Because she assumed (and, yes, you're right, she assumed wrong) that his evil side got the better of him - that he *couldn't* keep his evil side under control even with her love - again, why wouldn't she think that that's the reason?
Again, he never gave her a reason to even consider that he might be possessed, and worse, he never told her. If just once he'd been like Piper was when she was possessed by the essence in "Coyote Piper", when she did everything in her power to try to let her sisters and Leo know what was happening.
He never did.
Face it. He didn't like being mortal. He liked being strong. And he was when he was the Source. If he could have that as well as Phoebe, then why tell her that he was possessed???
The OP replied:
That's because Piper's body had been taken over, but that's not exactly how it happened with Cole. He didn't have two fighting sides. His sides seemed to merge. Coke couldn't tell Phoebe because he was no longer just Cole. Piper could ask for help because her mind was unaffected.
Why would the writers want to send out the message that obsession can battle evil? Cole's love for Phoebe is what stopped the Source from killing her.
The other member replied:
Yes he did. The episode right after he consumes the Source's powers ("The Three Faces of Phoebe") he is visibly struggling with the two sides. He eventually willingly accepts his role as The Source but still holds onto his love for Phoebe.
They even go to the extent of making it blatantly obvious by opening the episode with a dream sequence of two Cole's fighting. Notice how the Source side of him is still represented by Cole and not some other being or the Half-Faced demon as well as the human side, they are both as much a part of him as each other.
His love for Phoebe was still strong enough for him to continue to want her, wanting her to be his Queen but not strong enough to make him want to be something he didn’t want to be - human.
He didn't kill her because he loved her and wanted her as his Queen. There was no indication that he wanted to kill her as the Source, or battled with one half hating her, one half loving her with love winning out. He always wanted her alive and ruling the Underworld with him.
His love for her was whilst he was evil, but it clearly wasn't something that would make him good, nothing could because he was evil. His love for her may have at one stage in early season 4 made him WANT to be good but as evidenced from the episodes when he was just human he always longed for the other part of his life back. He couldn't be good, it wasn't him.
Where is this indicated? Cole as the Source never attempted or showed any desire to kill Phoebe.
Bearing in mind the half-faced demon, Cole and the Seer are entirely different demons/people who held the status as the Source at different stages, because when the power went into them, they embraced it. Therefore Half-Face’s desire to kill the Charmed Ones had nothing to do with Cole's reign as the Source.
Now going back to this:
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
That's what I'm saying, it's NOT possession. It became a part of him, a part he accepted, the same way he had accepted Belthazor as a part of him for almost a hundred years. Possession is taking control of someone's body against their will. Cole had the powers thrust upon him and struggled but then ultimately accepted them.
The fact he still loved Phoebe and was still capable of love IS big thing you're right. But that's where Phoebe had her choice, keep this demon alive because he genuinely loved her or vanquish him and save countless lives and tip the balance of power back over to good.
For one of the few times in her life, she made a mature, totally unselfish choice, just like when she told her sisters to let her burn. I’m not sure which one hurt her more, but in both cases, she knew she was making the right choice.
The OP replied:
His sides seem to merge eventually though, unlike Piper in Coyote Piper, where it was made clear that Piper and Terra were two completely different people occupying one body. Could anyone resist the Source's powers? Humans cannot handle taking in good powers, so how are they supposed to handle evil ones? Especially when it comes from the Source?
That's why I believe Cole's character appeared to merge with the Source. He never indicated he wanted to hurt Phoebe, because his evil side was surrounded by his love for Phoebe. I think that if it was literally two sides battling it out, this would not have been the case.
It's my opinion that Cole's love for Phoebe stopped him from killing her. I'm not sure if Esmeralda was responding to my comment about Cole loving Phoebe or not when she claimed it was obsession.
They believed it without proof. Sure, Cole could have willingly accepted the Source, but they didn't know and they also didn't seem to care. Indication or not, they should have been curious. Especially Phoebe.
I disagree that he simply accepted the powers. I don't think the situation is that black and white. Has it ever stated in the show that anyone can resist the Source's powers? I would imagine it wouldn't be a matter of simply accepting them, but more a matter of having no choice. Phoebe vanquishing Cole was understandable, but her attitude towards him in the aftermath was terrible.
The other member replied:
Exactly. Because Cole embraced the Source and his powers.
Except Cole wasn't any old human, he was one who had lived a century as a demon, a powerful demon, one of the most powerful demons. Throughout his Belthazor-free episodes he longed for the power again. He couldn't live as just a human, not even for love of Phoebe. He was tempted, lured by the Source's powers, not the same thing as possession. He certainly made a choice. He could've told the sisters what was happening, he chose not to.
They become one, because they are one. Cole is the Source. The Source isn't controlling him or possessing him or holding him against his will, Cole IS the Source.
Again, there's no indication in the show itself that he even wanted her dead to begin with. Cole wanted Phoebe as his fellow ruler of the Underworld.
Without proof of what? Cole was a demon who tried to kill them, who had been evil for a hundred years, evil which they were fighting. He claims to have switched sides for a while and love Phoebe before reverting back to evil. There's not much to question. Otherwise they'd have questioned whether he was really good when he made his decision to be with Phoebe, wondered whether he was possessed.
He was still Cole, Cole was now ruler of the Underworld. Nothing to save him from, nothing to change, nothing to do.
When a demon who came into your life trying to kill you, then married your sister and then revealed himself as the Source, when he's confronted about it has no remorse, still wants your sister but you did, why on earth should they be curious about anything?
You're thinking of it from a viewer's perspective – a viewer who only wants to see Cole as good, so you think all the other characters should see him the same way - and not from the other character's perspective.
You can't really disagree about simple facts. You're suggesting something that simply wasn't in the show, just like Esmeralda often does. But if you point out the facts as shown on the show to her, she’ll admit that she was wrong. I hope you can do the same thing. Because you are.
Half-Face, the previous Source, possesses people in Charmed Again, Part 1, THEY can't resist his powers and control. Cole could. Like I said, being the Source is accepting power and status, something which Cole accepted. He didn't reach out for help from them, even when he was discovered, even AFTER he meets with Phoebe in the wasteland and in season 5 he makes no suggestion that he was under control, or didn't have much of a choice with the Source's powers. There's absolutely no indication of what you're suggesting.
Even in season 5, we're shown Cole driven mad not just by his love (or obsession depending on your viewpoint) of Phoebe, but driven mad by trying to resist the major amount of power he has. Cole can't cope without power so he indulges a little bit and then a little bit more.
He thinks it's okay to have this power or that power which leads to more and more and more and before you know it he's unnaturally invincible and driven insane because it's a part of him.
Phoebe's attitude was entirely understandable. How many times did she believe him and try to help him only for him to indulge evil again? Try to kill her or her sisters again? I'd be completely angry/annoyed/uninterested in him if he came back for a gazillionth time especially when it was shown how much she was hurting over it. And the fact he came back as a crazed stalker. People always call Phoebe a b!tch in season 5 without considering her side of the story. Who on earth wouldn't be a b!tch to that crazy bastard?
Cole's problem was he wanted everything at once and couldn't. They did this on a smaller scale in Long Live the Queen, when Phoebe wanted to be with Cole and her sisters, but she learnt the lesson that she couldn't and made a choice.
The OP replied:
The other member replied:
The OP replied:
The other member replied:
Hence the fact he wanted her as his Queen, and wanted to conceive a child with her BEFORE coming clean about who he is.
That's all well and good but there's nothing in the story to suggest this. Unless I've forgotten some details, you're welcome to refresh my memory.
As I said further up the thread, it wasn't the most well written or consistent story but Cole's state of mind and feelings about Phoebe were spelt out pretty clearly. He wanted the power, the status AND Phoebe. Her becoming his Queen and using a child to further seal his connection with her.
It's not as simply as confessing to the sisters, no. But we'd have had some reference to the Source not being what Cole wanted to be after the story ended. But we didn't. In season 5 Cole wouldn't have been so quick to try to convince Phoebe "I promise I've changed" etc if he wasn't personally to blame. It's a bit like an alcoholic indulging in their weakness and then when they're sober promising to never do it again and they'll change and before long they've been tempted again and give in again.
I replied:
The other member replied:
I hope it does. I started to confuse myself after the fourth post.
Oh right. I always presumed you blamed the sisters for not saving him. I must have read it wrong.
I replied:
I hope it does. I started to confuse myself after the fourth post.
Hehehehe! Well, reading the whole thing, it truly does make sense - to the point where I'm going to post it at other sites where I was convinced that he *was* possessed, and therefore what he did was not his fault.
Oh right. I always presumed you blamed the sisters for not saving him. I must have read it wrong.
That's because I was convinced that he was possessed, so it wasn't his fault, and the sisters should've figured it out and saved him - which is what I would've preferred over the mess that we got - have him totally possessed, like Shane was in "Charmed Again", let the sisters realize it (and had it been Prue, not Paige, as it shoud've been, Piper and Phoebe would've been more likely to believe her), let them save him by separating him from the Source and vanquishing the Source.
And even though I generally don't like ambiguous characters, preferring them to be black-and-white, I must admit I like your grey Cole a lot more.
It still doesn't make me like the story arc any more than I did nor does it make me want to watch it, nor do I think that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole and not just the lawyer, the Cole she wanted him to be but could never be, nor do I think they are soul mates; it just makes the storyline as played on the show make a whole lot more sense.
The other member replied:
Ah. That's good then.
Oh right. I get you.
Even the OP is now convinced:
And the other member replied:
I have sympathy for Cole myself at various points. It can't be easy when the two biggest things you want or crave for in life, you can't have them at the same time because they are such polar opposites. He was a very tragic character.
When you dissect a storyline/character like this though you realise just how good the material is really. It's just a shame Charmed always glossed over a lot of this stuff to go straight to the easiest/quickest conclusion. It robs the story of itself and leads to all this ambiguity.
AMEN!
Unlike many others, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I have been. It doesn't make me like S4 any more - it makes me like it less - but that's what is.
Here's the thread from another site that convinced me:
The Original Poster (the OP) wrote:
How did the sisters not know Cole was possessed by the Source? They knew that it was something passed on, so obviously Cole was being possessed. It's not just his eyes that gave it away. Common sense makes it obvious that a human (which he was before being possessed) cannot handle evil powers, even when not being possessed. The sisters just chose to blame Cole.
Another member replied:
They knew it was something that was passed on but that doesn't always equate to possession.
Cole could have willingly accepted the Source's powers for all they knew. They didn't have any evidence to say Cole was doing anything against his will. He'd been a demon for a century before trying to suppress that half and live a life as a human to be with Phoebe. Throughout all of his human episodes it showed he couldn't cope with the "boredom" of it.
In the end, evil took over again, but it was always a part of him.
There's a huge difference between Cole inheriting the powers of the Source and being lured back to the dark side, which he spent 100 years a part of and, say Prue in "Bride and Gloom" when she was entirely controlled against her will.
I always thought the dream sequence shown at the beginning of "The Three Faces of Phoebe" showed that him inheriting the dark powers essentially was too attractive for him and figuratively killed his humanity.
It wasn't that he was forced against his will to do anything like an actual possession, but was weak to evil and eventually embraced it. Through that whole arc we saw him battle with the two sides to him, the dark one won out.
Granted, the story seems a jumbled mess in retrospect and could have been written a hell of a lot better either way.
Cole could have willingly accepted the Source's powers for all they knew. They didn't have any evidence to say Cole was doing anything against his will. He'd been a demon for a century before trying to suppress that half and live a life as a human to be with Phoebe. Throughout all of his human episodes it showed he couldn't cope with the "boredom" of it.
In the end, evil took over again, but it was always a part of him.
There's a huge difference between Cole inheriting the powers of the Source and being lured back to the dark side, which he spent 100 years a part of and, say Prue in "Bride and Gloom" when she was entirely controlled against her will.
I always thought the dream sequence shown at the beginning of "The Three Faces of Phoebe" showed that him inheriting the dark powers essentially was too attractive for him and figuratively killed his humanity.
It wasn't that he was forced against his will to do anything like an actual possession, but was weak to evil and eventually embraced it. Through that whole arc we saw him battle with the two sides to him, the dark one won out.
Granted, the story seems a jumbled mess in retrospect and could have been written a hell of a lot better either way.
My comment: AMEN!
But the OP thought otherwise:
I don't see it like that. To me, the Source is the Charmed world's answer to the Devil and no human can withstand the thrall of the Devil. Unless that human is Arnold Schwartzenegger.
The thing that annoyed me about it though, is Phoebe's complete lack of giving a sh!t. Why didn't she ask Cole what happened? She could have tried to understand how it all started, but she clearly didn't care if he was possessed or if he had willingly taken on the role. Her attitude towards him proved to me, that she didn't love him as much as she made out.
The thing that annoyed me about it though, is Phoebe's complete lack of giving a sh!t. Why didn't she ask Cole what happened? She could have tried to understand how it all started, but she clearly didn't care if he was possessed or if he had willingly taken on the role. Her attitude towards him proved to me, that she didn't love him as much as she made out.
I replied:
She always loved the lawyer, never the demon. And once she really saw the demon in action (and remember - she never realized that he was possessed - the reason she never asked - she had no reason to - rather than her asking, he should've told her) she gave up on him.
Same for him. He couldn't get it through his thick skull that she couldn't love that part of him and that part of him was an important part of him. Rather than stalking her he should've left her alone.
Season Five made such a mockery of their so-called love. I'll never forgive Kern for doing that to them.
Same for him. He couldn't get it through his thick skull that she couldn't love that part of him and that part of him was an important part of him. Rather than stalking her he should've left her alone.
Season Five made such a mockery of their so-called love. I'll never forgive Kern for doing that to them.
The OP replied:
If she really loved him, that would have been a reason to ask. She had already seen his dark side. The way she didn't give a crap about Cole just seemed like pure lazy writing.
He stalked her because he was crazy. It was well established in S5 that Cole's powers and Phoebe's rejection had driven him to insanity. Not that Phoebe cared. To her, he should have "moved on" in the wasteland. I always wondered where she thought he would "move on" to. She gives great advice.
He stalked her because he was crazy. It was well established in S5 that Cole's powers and Phoebe's rejection had driven him to insanity. Not that Phoebe cared. To her, he should have "moved on" in the wasteland. I always wondered where she thought he would "move on" to. She gives great advice.
The other member replied:
She had already seen his dark side. The way she didn't give a crap about Cole just seemed like pure lazy writing.
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Except The Source, as we later discovered, was not a being who could possess someone, but it was a status that came with the Source’s power. Cole was more than a human. As the Seer described it, he still had an empty void in his soul. When the Hollow was returned to its box and the powers it had absorbed were returned to their original owners, with Half-Face (the previous Source) vanquished, his powers filled that void – not Half-Face, but his powers, the powers that made Cole the Source.
If it was a straight forward possession the story arc would have been a lot simpler. But then the Source never would've loved Phoebe or wanted her as his queen and we wouldn't have had that plotline.
It basically happens on repeat in season 5 when he is no longer The Source. He's consuming power and feeding his demon half, something no matter how much he wants to embrace his human half he can't. Both sides are a major part of him. He can't have one without the other. Hence his need for Phoebe, his human half longed for that love but his demon half craved power, blood lust, war etc.
The entire arc wasn't written clearly though, nor was it written to the best it could have been.
I replied:
She had already seen his dark side. The way she didn't give a crap about Cole just seemed like pure lazy writing.
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Exactly so. I'll keep saying that she never truly loved *HIM*, but rather loved the him she wanted him to be - and ditto for him never truly loving *HER* but rather the her he wanted her to be - someone who could love the demon - but that only happened when she was under the influence of the Seer and her potion.
The OP replied:
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
Except The Source, as we later discovered, was not a being who could possess someone, but it was a status that came with the Source’s power. Cole was more than a human. As the Seer described it, he still had an empty void in his soul. When the Hollow was returned to its box and the powers it had absorbed were returned to their original owners, with Half-Face (the previous Source) vanquished, his powers filled that void – not Half-Face, but his powers, the powers that made Cole the Source.
If it was a straight forward possession the story arc would have been a lot simpler. It basically happens on repeat in season 5 when he is no longer The Source. He's consuming power and feeding his demon half, something no matter how much he wants to embrace his human half he can't. Both sides are a major part of him. He can't have one without the other. Hence his need for Phoebe, his human half longed for that love but his demon half craved power, blood lust, war etc.
If it was a straight forward possession the story arc would have been a lot simpler. It basically happens on repeat in season 5 when he is no longer The Source. He's consuming power and feeding his demon half, something no matter how much he wants to embrace his human half he can't. Both sides are a major part of him. He can't have one without the other. Hence his need for Phoebe, his human half longed for that love but his demon half craved power, blood lust, war etc.
He was partly taken over by the Source, which isn't that different from possession. The fact that he still had good in him that was strong enough to make the Source of all evil capable of love, gives him a lot of credit imo. His love must have been very strong to contend with the most evil entity in the universe.
The other member replied:
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
I replied:
That's the point. She knows he has his evil side, so there was no reason to ask "Were you possessed?". The very fact that Cole himself doesn't try to explain it away in this way shows that there was some kind of choice on Cole's behalf to embrace the Source and its powers.
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
Because she assumed (and, yes, you're right, she assumed wrong) that his evil side got the better of him - that he *couldn't* keep his evil side under control even with her love - again, why wouldn't she think that that's the reason?
Again, he never gave her a reason to even consider that he might be possessed, and worse, he never told her. If just once he'd been like Piper was when she was possessed by the essence in "Coyote Piper", when she did everything in her power to try to let her sisters and Leo know what was happening.
He never did.
Face it. He didn't like being mortal. He liked being strong. And he was when he was the Source. If he could have that as well as Phoebe, then why tell her that he was possessed???
The OP replied:
Again, he never gave her a reason to even consider that he might be possessed, and worse, he never told her. If just once he'd been like Piper was when she was possessed by the essence in "Coyote Piper", when she did everything in her power to try to let her sisters and Leo know what was happening.
That's because Piper's body had been taken over, but that's not exactly how it happened with Cole. He didn't have two fighting sides. His sides seemed to merge. Coke couldn't tell Phoebe because he was no longer just Cole. Piper could ask for help because her mind was unaffected.
Face it. He didn't like being mortal. He liked being strong. And he was when he was the Source. If he could have that as well as Phoebe, then why tell her that he was possessed???
Why would the writers want to send out the message that obsession can battle evil? Cole's love for Phoebe is what stopped the Source from killing her.
The other member replied:
He didn't have two fighting sides. His sides seemed to merge.
Yes he did. The episode right after he consumes the Source's powers ("The Three Faces of Phoebe") he is visibly struggling with the two sides. He eventually willingly accepts his role as The Source but still holds onto his love for Phoebe.
They even go to the extent of making it blatantly obvious by opening the episode with a dream sequence of two Cole's fighting. Notice how the Source side of him is still represented by Cole and not some other being or the Half-Faced demon as well as the human side, they are both as much a part of him as each other.
His love for Phoebe was still strong enough for him to continue to want her, wanting her to be his Queen but not strong enough to make him want to be something he didn’t want to be - human.
He didn't kill her because he loved her and wanted her as his Queen. There was no indication that he wanted to kill her as the Source, or battled with one half hating her, one half loving her with love winning out. He always wanted her alive and ruling the Underworld with him.
His love for her was whilst he was evil, but it clearly wasn't something that would make him good, nothing could because he was evil. His love for her may have at one stage in early season 4 made him WANT to be good but as evidenced from the episodes when he was just human he always longed for the other part of his life back. He couldn't be good, it wasn't him.
Why would the writers want to send out the message that obsession can battle evil? Cole's love for Phoebe is what stopped the Source from killing her.
Where is this indicated? Cole as the Source never attempted or showed any desire to kill Phoebe.
Bearing in mind the half-faced demon, Cole and the Seer are entirely different demons/people who held the status as the Source at different stages, because when the power went into them, they embraced it. Therefore Half-Face’s desire to kill the Charmed Ones had nothing to do with Cole's reign as the Source.
Now going back to this:
Why was there no reason to ask? He gave up his evil side for Phoebe. Surely that is reason enough to ask what happened to him? Instead, the sisters just assumed.
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
He was partly taken over by the Source, which isn't that different from possession. The fact that he still had good in him that was strong enough to make the Source of all evil capable of love, gives him a lot of credit imo. His love must have been very strong to contend with the most evil entity in the universe.
That's what I'm saying, it's NOT possession. It became a part of him, a part he accepted, the same way he had accepted Belthazor as a part of him for almost a hundred years. Possession is taking control of someone's body against their will. Cole had the powers thrust upon him and struggled but then ultimately accepted them.
The fact he still loved Phoebe and was still capable of love IS big thing you're right. But that's where Phoebe had her choice, keep this demon alive because he genuinely loved her or vanquish him and save countless lives and tip the balance of power back over to good.
For one of the few times in her life, she made a mature, totally unselfish choice, just like when she told her sisters to let her burn. I’m not sure which one hurt her more, but in both cases, she knew she was making the right choice.
The OP replied:
Yes he did. The episode right after he consumes the Source's powers ("The Three Faces of Phoebe") he is visibly struggling with the two sides. He eventually willingly accepts his role as The Source but still holds onto his love for Phoebe.
They even go to the extent of making it blatantly obvious by opening the episode with a dream sequence of two Cole's fighting. Notice how the Source side of him is still represented by Cole and not some other being or the Half-Faced demon as well as the human side, they are both as much a part of him as each other.
His love for Phoebe was still strong enough for him to continue to want her, wanting her to be his Queen but not strong enough to make him want to be something he didn’t want to be - human.
They even go to the extent of making it blatantly obvious by opening the episode with a dream sequence of two Cole's fighting. Notice how the Source side of him is still represented by Cole and not some other being or the Half-Faced demon as well as the human side, they are both as much a part of him as each other.
His love for Phoebe was still strong enough for him to continue to want her, wanting her to be his Queen but not strong enough to make him want to be something he didn’t want to be - human.
His sides seem to merge eventually though, unlike Piper in Coyote Piper, where it was made clear that Piper and Terra were two completely different people occupying one body. Could anyone resist the Source's powers? Humans cannot handle taking in good powers, so how are they supposed to handle evil ones? Especially when it comes from the Source?
He didn't kill her because he loved her and wanted her as his Queen. There was no indication that he wanted to kill her as the Source, or battled with one half hating her, one half loving her with love winning out. He always wanted her alive and ruling the Underworld with him.
His love for her was whilst he was evil, but it clearly wasn't something that would make him good, nothing could because he was evil. His love for her may have at one stage in early season 4 made him WANT to be good but as evidenced from the episodes when he was just human he always longed for the other part of his life back. He couldn't be good, it wasn't him.
His love for her was whilst he was evil, but it clearly wasn't something that would make him good, nothing could because he was evil. His love for her may have at one stage in early season 4 made him WANT to be good but as evidenced from the episodes when he was just human he always longed for the other part of his life back. He couldn't be good, it wasn't him.
That's why I believe Cole's character appeared to merge with the Source. He never indicated he wanted to hurt Phoebe, because his evil side was surrounded by his love for Phoebe. I think that if it was literally two sides battling it out, this would not have been the case.
Where is this indicated? Cole as the Source never attempted or showed any desire to kill Phoebe.
Bearing in mind the half-faced demon, Cole and the Seer are entirely different demons/people who held the status as the Source at different stages, because when the power went into them, they embraced it. Therefore Half-Face’s desire to kill the Charmed Ones had nothing to do with Cole's reign as the Source.
Bearing in mind the half-faced demon, Cole and the Seer are entirely different demons/people who held the status as the Source at different stages, because when the power went into them, they embraced it. Therefore Half-Face’s desire to kill the Charmed Ones had nothing to do with Cole's reign as the Source.
It's my opinion that Cole's love for Phoebe stopped him from killing her. I'm not sure if Esmeralda was responding to my comment about Cole loving Phoebe or not when she claimed it was obsession.
Because there was no indication he was possessed. He was still as much Cole as he was the ruler of the Underworld. Telling Phoebe how much he loved her but still happily playing the Source of All Evil. Wanting Phoebe to be his Queen.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
There was no indication to the sisters that he had been taken against his own free will. They believed (and to an extent they were right) that he was willingly becoming the Source.
They believed it without proof. Sure, Cole could have willingly accepted the Source, but they didn't know and they also didn't seem to care. Indication or not, they should have been curious. Especially Phoebe.
That's what I'm saying, it's NOT possession. It became a part of him, a part he accepted, the same way he had accepted Belthazor as a part of him for almost a hundred years. Possession is taking control of someone's body against their will. Cole had the powers thrust upon him and struggled but then ultimately accepted them.
The fact he still loved Phoebe and was still capable of love IS big thing you're right. But that's where Phoebe had her choice, keep this demon alive because he genuinely loved her or vanquish him and save countless lives and tip the balance of power back over to good.
For one of the few times in her life, she made a mature, totally unselfish choice, just like when she told her sisters to let her burn. I’m not sure which one hurt her more, but in both cases, she knew she was making the right choice.
The fact he still loved Phoebe and was still capable of love IS big thing you're right. But that's where Phoebe had her choice, keep this demon alive because he genuinely loved her or vanquish him and save countless lives and tip the balance of power back over to good.
For one of the few times in her life, she made a mature, totally unselfish choice, just like when she told her sisters to let her burn. I’m not sure which one hurt her more, but in both cases, she knew she was making the right choice.
I disagree that he simply accepted the powers. I don't think the situation is that black and white. Has it ever stated in the show that anyone can resist the Source's powers? I would imagine it wouldn't be a matter of simply accepting them, but more a matter of having no choice. Phoebe vanquishing Cole was understandable, but her attitude towards him in the aftermath was terrible.
The other member replied:
His sides seem to merge eventually though, unlike Piper in Coyote Piper, where it was made clear that Piper and Terra were two completely different people occupying one body. Could anyone resist the Source's powers? Humans cannot handle taking in good powers, so how are they supposed to handle evil ones? Especially when it comes from the Source?
Exactly. Because Cole embraced the Source and his powers.
That's why I believe Cole's character appeared to merge with the Source. He never indicated he wanted to hurt Phoebe, because his evil side was surrounded by his love for Phoebe. I think that if it was literally two sides battling it out, this would not have been the case.
Except Cole wasn't any old human, he was one who had lived a century as a demon, a powerful demon, one of the most powerful demons. Throughout his Belthazor-free episodes he longed for the power again. He couldn't live as just a human, not even for love of Phoebe. He was tempted, lured by the Source's powers, not the same thing as possession. He certainly made a choice. He could've told the sisters what was happening, he chose not to.
That's why I believe Cole's character appeared to merge with the Source. He never indicated he wanted to hurt Phoebe, because his evil side was surrounded by his love for Phoebe. I think that if it was literally two sides battling it out, this would not have been the case.
They become one, because they are one. Cole is the Source. The Source isn't controlling him or possessing him or holding him against his will, Cole IS the Source.
It's my opinion that Cole's love for Phoebe stopped him from killing her. I'm not sure if Esmeralda was responding to my comment about Cole loving Phoebe or not when she claimed it was obsession.
Again, there's no indication in the show itself that he even wanted her dead to begin with. Cole wanted Phoebe as his fellow ruler of the Underworld.
They believed it without proof. Sure, Cole could have willingly accepted the Source, but they didn't know and they also didn't seem to care. Indication or not, they should have been curious. Especially Phoebe.
Without proof of what? Cole was a demon who tried to kill them, who had been evil for a hundred years, evil which they were fighting. He claims to have switched sides for a while and love Phoebe before reverting back to evil. There's not much to question. Otherwise they'd have questioned whether he was really good when he made his decision to be with Phoebe, wondered whether he was possessed.
He was still Cole, Cole was now ruler of the Underworld. Nothing to save him from, nothing to change, nothing to do.
When a demon who came into your life trying to kill you, then married your sister and then revealed himself as the Source, when he's confronted about it has no remorse, still wants your sister but you did, why on earth should they be curious about anything?
You're thinking of it from a viewer's perspective – a viewer who only wants to see Cole as good, so you think all the other characters should see him the same way - and not from the other character's perspective.
I disagree that he simply accepted the powers. I don't think the situation is that black and white. Has it ever stated in the show that anyone can resist the Source's powers? I would imagine it wouldn't be a matter of simply accepting them, but more a matter of having no choice. Phoebe vanquishing Cole was understandable, but her attitude towards him in the aftermath was terrible.
You can't really disagree about simple facts. You're suggesting something that simply wasn't in the show, just like Esmeralda often does. But if you point out the facts as shown on the show to her, she’ll admit that she was wrong. I hope you can do the same thing. Because you are.
Half-Face, the previous Source, possesses people in Charmed Again, Part 1, THEY can't resist his powers and control. Cole could. Like I said, being the Source is accepting power and status, something which Cole accepted. He didn't reach out for help from them, even when he was discovered, even AFTER he meets with Phoebe in the wasteland and in season 5 he makes no suggestion that he was under control, or didn't have much of a choice with the Source's powers. There's absolutely no indication of what you're suggesting.
Even in season 5, we're shown Cole driven mad not just by his love (or obsession depending on your viewpoint) of Phoebe, but driven mad by trying to resist the major amount of power he has. Cole can't cope without power so he indulges a little bit and then a little bit more.
He thinks it's okay to have this power or that power which leads to more and more and more and before you know it he's unnaturally invincible and driven insane because it's a part of him.
Phoebe's attitude was entirely understandable. How many times did she believe him and try to help him only for him to indulge evil again? Try to kill her or her sisters again? I'd be completely angry/annoyed/uninterested in him if he came back for a gazillionth time especially when it was shown how much she was hurting over it. And the fact he came back as a crazed stalker. People always call Phoebe a b!tch in season 5 without considering her side of the story. Who on earth wouldn't be a b!tch to that crazy bastard?
Cole's problem was he wanted everything at once and couldn't. They did this on a smaller scale in Long Live the Queen, when Phoebe wanted to be with Cole and her sisters, but she learnt the lesson that she couldn't and made a choice.
The OP replied:
Was it stated in the show that Cole could resist the Source? I missed that part. I honestly can't remember it ever being mentioned. Cole may have been a demon for 100+ years, but he was human when he became the Source. I don't see how he could have resisted the ultimate evil, unless it was stated in the show. I haven't watched every episode in S4 for a while. I'll have to check it out.
The other member replied:
That's not strictly what I meant. By resist I meant, not want to be The Source. To reach out to the sisters for help. When they discovered who he was he could have told them he was possessed etc. that it wasn't his fault. Not even when Phoebe visits him in the Wasteland does he mention being taken over/controlled by the Source. All because he willingly accepted the Source because the power and status were attractive to him. Human or not at the time he became the Source, demons, power and murder were all he knew. Without it he wasn't content in his life.
The OP replied:
I just don't think it's that simple. I think that something may have been stopping Cole from coming clean. He knew that he would lose Phoebe by becoming the Source and yet he still did it. I think he loved her too much for that. I've always believed that it wasn't as easy as simply confessing to the sisters. Something was stopping him and it wasn't desire for power. What good would power be without Phoebe? I don't think he had it planned to make her evil from the start.
The other member replied:
He knew that he would lose Phoebe by becoming the Source and yet he still did it.
Hence the fact he wanted her as his Queen, and wanted to conceive a child with her BEFORE coming clean about who he is.
I think he loved her too much for that. I've always believed that it wasn't as easy as simply confessing to the sisters. Something was stopping him and it wasn't desire for power. What good would power be without Phoebe? I don't think he had it planned to make her evil from the start.
That's all well and good but there's nothing in the story to suggest this. Unless I've forgotten some details, you're welcome to refresh my memory.
As I said further up the thread, it wasn't the most well written or consistent story but Cole's state of mind and feelings about Phoebe were spelt out pretty clearly. He wanted the power, the status AND Phoebe. Her becoming his Queen and using a child to further seal his connection with her.
It's not as simply as confessing to the sisters, no. But we'd have had some reference to the Source not being what Cole wanted to be after the story ended. But we didn't. In season 5 Cole wouldn't have been so quick to try to convince Phoebe "I promise I've changed" etc if he wasn't personally to blame. It's a bit like an alcoholic indulging in their weakness and then when they're sober promising to never do it again and they'll change and before long they've been tempted again and give in again.
I replied:
Thank you. Season Four and Cole as the Source never made sense. This does.
And it proves what I always thought - what Cole did as the Source WAS his own fault!
And it proves what I always thought - what Cole did as the Source WAS his own fault!
The other member replied:
Thank you. Season Four and Cole as the Source never made sense. This does.
I hope it does. I started to confuse myself after the fourth post.
And it proves what I always thought - what Cole did as the Source WAS his own fault!
Oh right. I always presumed you blamed the sisters for not saving him. I must have read it wrong.
I replied:
Thank you. Season Four and Cole as the Source never made sense. This does.
I hope it does. I started to confuse myself after the fourth post.
Hehehehe! Well, reading the whole thing, it truly does make sense - to the point where I'm going to post it at other sites where I was convinced that he *was* possessed, and therefore what he did was not his fault.
And it proves what I always thought - what Cole did as the Source WAS his own fault!
Oh right. I always presumed you blamed the sisters for not saving him. I must have read it wrong.
That's because I was convinced that he was possessed, so it wasn't his fault, and the sisters should've figured it out and saved him - which is what I would've preferred over the mess that we got - have him totally possessed, like Shane was in "Charmed Again", let the sisters realize it (and had it been Prue, not Paige, as it shoud've been, Piper and Phoebe would've been more likely to believe her), let them save him by separating him from the Source and vanquishing the Source.
And even though I generally don't like ambiguous characters, preferring them to be black-and-white, I must admit I like your grey Cole a lot more.
It still doesn't make me like the story arc any more than I did nor does it make me want to watch it, nor do I think that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole and not just the lawyer, the Cole she wanted him to be but could never be, nor do I think they are soul mates; it just makes the storyline as played on the show make a whole lot more sense.
The other member replied:
Hehehehe! Well, reading the whole thing, it truly does make sense - to the point where I'm going to post it at other sites where I was convinced that he *was* possessed, and therefore what he did was not his fault.
Ah. That's good then.
That's because I was convinced that he was possessed, so it wasn't his fault, and the sisters should've figured it out and saved him - which is what I would've preferred over the mess that we got - have him totally possessed, like Shane was in "Charmed Again", let the sisters realize it (and had it been Prue, not Paige, as it shoud've been, Piper and Phoebe would've been more likely to believe her), let them save him by separating him from the Source and vanquishing the Source.
And even though I generally don't like ambiguous characters, preferring them to be black-and-white, I must admit I like your grey Cole a lot more.
It still doesn't make me like the story arc any more than I did nor does it make me want to watch it, nor do I think that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole and not just the lawyer, the Cole she wanted him to be but could never be, nor do I think they are soul mates; it just makes the storyline as played on the show make a whole lot more sense.
And even though I generally don't like ambiguous characters, preferring them to be black-and-white, I must admit I like your grey Cole a lot more.
It still doesn't make me like the story arc any more than I did nor does it make me want to watch it, nor do I think that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole and not just the lawyer, the Cole she wanted him to be but could never be, nor do I think they are soul mates; it just makes the storyline as played on the show make a whole lot more sense.
Oh right. I get you.
Even the OP is now convinced:
I'm also definitely taking your opinion on board. You've given me a slightly different perspective on the whole thing (and it's usually hard to do that because I'm quite stubborn
And the other member replied:
I'm also definitely taking your opinion on board. You've given me a slightly different perspective on the whole thing (and it's usually hard to do that because I'm quite stubborn
I have sympathy for Cole myself at various points. It can't be easy when the two biggest things you want or crave for in life, you can't have them at the same time because they are such polar opposites. He was a very tragic character.
When you dissect a storyline/character like this though you realise just how good the material is really. It's just a shame Charmed always glossed over a lot of this stuff to go straight to the easiest/quickest conclusion. It robs the story of itself and leads to all this ambiguity.
AMEN!
Please don't mix me up with other fans.
