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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Dec 22, 2015 16:32:57 GMT -5
Me too. I also remember Cole struggling to tell Phoebe, but the Source prevented him, and finally completely over-powered him. The dreams also showed the Source trying to completely take over, to erase any shed of humanity Cole still had, and Cole trying to resist. And regardless of any of that, Cole took in the Hollow in the first place to save Phoebe and her sisters, he had no idea what the consequences would be, so it's not like he's a complete monster. All he did was out of love. He's actually more of a victim than anything else. True. |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Dec 22, 2015 16:46:08 GMT -5
Me too. I also remember Cole struggling to tell Phoebe, but the Source prevented him, and finally completely over-powered him. The dreams also showed the Source trying to completely take over, to erase any shed of humanity Cole still had, and Cole trying to resist. And regardless of any of that, Cole took in the Hollow in the first place to save Phoebe and her sisters, he had no idea what the consequences would be, so it's not like he's a complete monster. All he did was out of love. He's actually more of a victim than anything else. Well you would think in the back of his mind that they would be a catch in taken in the hollow of course he may not have been thinking about it at the moment since he was desperate to do anything to defeat the Source. |
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Dec 23, 2015 12:53:26 GMT -5
Can someone please explain what the difference is between Cole being infected by the Source and not possessed, and why it's somehow worse? he couldn't - and didn't in the ebooks - use possession as an excuse for his vile behavior. I don't think he ever made any excuse for it even in the show. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2015 18:40:39 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why CBS took the comics away from Paul Ruditis. As I said, he seemed to be winning back the fans that were lost because of Kern's horrible blunders.
Canon or not, the comics are the closest thing that Charmed fans are ever gonna get to a continuation. At least Mr. Ruditis seemed to know what had gone wrong with the show and was doing his best to fix it. And it seemed that most fans who followed the comics were praising his work.
Number One rule, you DON'T replace the guy who's doing a great job. However, CBS is clearly not listening. Ever since Shand took over, the fan praise for the comics has dropped dramatically and it seems the comics are on the verge of cancellation. Nice going, CBS. The WB couldn't have done a better job at killing the last shred of Charmed's dignity.
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 24, 2015 0:18:13 GMT -5
He did when the Seer convinced him to use the old "The Source made me do it", when he was never possessed. Being infected isn't the same as being possessed - although the powers of the Source were influencing him by letting him think that "The Source made me do it" (and I will insist forever that it was the powers of the Source that went into him, not the essence, since it's those powers that the Hollow took in and gave back, not the essence), he could still make his own choice - and he made it for evil. He never wanted to be good and he never wanted to be a useless mortal - he wanted to be a powerful demon who had Phoebe as his wife, the mother of his heir. Nothing good or poor, poor Cole in any of that.
Now I'm first to admit that it's been a long time since I've seen any of the episodes in the alternate-universe spin-off (aka S4-8) in a very long time. If at any time, he actually told the sisters (not Paige..) that he was being influenced by the Source and ask them to help him get rid of that influence and they refused to do that and if someone can quote from the script that shows this happening, then I'll blame the sisters.
But until someone does, I'll continue to blame Cole for not doing exactly that.
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Post by Nimue on Dec 24, 2015 14:25:39 GMT -5
He did when the Seer convinced him to use the old "The Source made me do it", when he was never possessed. Being infected isn't the same as being possessed - although the powers of the Source were influencing him by letting him think that "The Source made me do it" (and I will insist forever that it was the powers of the Source that went into him, not the essence, since it's those powers that the Hollow took in and gave back, not the essence), he could still make his own choice - and he made it for evil. He never wanted to be good and he never wanted to be a useless mortal - he wanted to be a powerful demon who had Phoebe as his wife, the mother of his heir. Nothing good or poor, poor Cole in any of that. Now I'm first to admit that it's been a long time since I've seen any of the episodes in the alternate-universe spin-off (aka S4-8) in a very long time. If at any time, he actually told the sisters (not Paige..) that he was being influenced by the Source and ask them to help him get rid of that influence and they refused to do that and if someone can quote from the script that shows this happening, then I'll blame the sisters. But until someone does, I'll continue to blame Cole for not doing exactly that. |
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Dec 24, 2015 18:55:10 GMT -5
This is why my "official stance" on the whole issue now is that he was both a victim and an offender in the situation. He didn't realize he'd be ecstasy'd up by the Source's power, but once he was he fell under and gave into the influence. He tried to get out at times nonetheless, but poor communication and bad decisions ended up pulling Phoebe down with him for a week instead so he had to die to get rid of the Source for good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 1:15:22 GMT -5
Can we please drop this whole Cole/Source stuff and get back to talking about the comics?
Hasn't the Cole/Source topic been beaten to death already here at the Cafe? We don't need another thread about it, thank you very much. It's just the same old arguments going round and round in an endless loop.
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 25, 2015 11:54:17 GMT -5
He did when the Seer convinced him to use the old "The Source made me do it", when he was never possessed. Being infected isn't the same as being possessed - although the powers of the Source were influencing him by letting him think that "The Source made me do it" (and I will insist forever that it was the powers of the Source that went into him, not the essence, since it's those powers that the Hollow took in and gave back, not the essence), he could still make his own choice - and he made it for evil. He never wanted to be good and he never wanted to be a useless mortal - he wanted to be a powerful demon who had Phoebe as his wife, the mother of his heir. Nothing good or poor, poor Cole in any of that. Now I'm first to admit that it's been a long time since I've seen any of the episodes in the alternate-universe spin-off (aka S4-8) in a very long time. If at any time, he actually told the sisters (not Paige..) that he was being influenced by the Source and ask them to help him get rid of that influence and they refused to do that and if someone can quote from the script that shows this happening, then I'll blame the sisters. But until someone does, I'll continue to blame Cole for not doing exactly that. I think you may have a point when you say he absorbed the Source's powers, and not his essence: I just quickly rewatched "Charmed and Dangerous", and the Seer says that the Hollow will permit him to absorb the Source's powers. Nothing about his essence. But I'm not sure that changes anything: as much as I maintain that powers are mostly neutral (this is something that the show did once say, in Lost and Bound I think), there are some magics that are far more dangerous and darker than others, and that's probably what the Source had. Being far more darker and dangerous than any other magic (and this is just pure speculation, I don't have any real proof), and taking into account Cole's demon half, this would explain why Cole went evil the way he did... Also, in the next episode, there are dreams of the Source trying to take over Cole, and there are actual moments where Cole does try to explain what is happening, but he can't. He even begs Old Phoebe to explain what happened. Actually, I'm not sure I'm making much sense here, but during this week-end I fully intend on watching that part of Charmed and fully defending (or not) Cole afterwards. Whatever happens, I still maintain Cole was a victim. And no, I don't think I remember him trying to explain what happened to him when he wasn't possessed, although he probably didn't because he thought the Sisters would never believe him. The real reason is probably the writers needing a good reason why Phoebe wouldn't go back to him. LOL, you're probably absolutely right about that, because I can't agree with that. If he showed off his Source powers and showed them the black eyes, I'm quite certain they *would* believe him. I think they wanted Phoebe to become the Queen of the Underworld and just used Cole. I decided to do what you're going to do but do it the only way I can right now - reading the script for "Charmed and Dangerous" at charmedscript.tv. And I discovered that he *wasn't* infected by the Source's powers and wasn't possessed by the Source - he was infected by the Hollow itself, and that's what allowed him to become the Source - but still Cole - maybe... He might instead have been possessed by the Hollow. I always thought of the Hollow as a non-sentinent thing that absorbed all powers and then gave them back when it was put back in the box. But then I read this: I still don't think Cole was ever possessed - by the Hollow or the Source or anything else - if he did there would've been no sense of him being Cole and there always was - think of Phoebe in "Is There a Woogy in the House?" or Shane in "Charmed Again, Part Two" - that's possession. Cole was more like Paige in that episode - being influenced by the Source but able to make her own choices, the way Cole still made his. I still think Paul Ruditis saying he was not himself when he was "infected" - the way both sets of sisters were infected with it in "Kill Billie, Vol 2." - where they were still able to make their own choices - was closest to being correct. Here's more pieces I found: Please note that infected Cole never took in any of the sisters' powers. Had he, the Hollow would've taken him over more. That never happened. Again, it's the taking in of powers that makes the Hollow and whoever it is infecting so dangerous, something Cole never did. Then there's these: The Seer's first lie which too many Charmed fans believe, the reason so many of them blame Phoebe for binding his demonic powers. Part of Cole isn't Cole and part of him isn't Belthazor - he will always be both. Phoebe's potion took away Cole's demonic powers - it did *not* stop him from being Belthazor - especially after being a mercenary demon for almost 100 years. The only truth the Seer said in that bit was in calling him "Cole? Belthazor?" because that was still exactly who he was and always will be. Cole's worst mistake...but his. Not the Charmed Ones'. Please note that he took in the Hollow willingly. Victim? No. Misled by the Seer whose words you can never believe, which is what makes her so evil, so dangerous, so deliciously wonderful as the the true Big Bad of Season Four - oh, yes! Cole's fault for believing her rather than going back to the sisters, have them get a hold of the box and figure a way of putting the Hollow back into it. Yep. The Charmed Ones' fault in any of this outside of Phoebe falling for someone she never should've the way Piper fell for a dead man who she never should've? Nope. Because this is what comes next: (Bolding mine) Phoebe was wrong, and like the Seer, she misled too many Charmed fans with those words. But that's not the Hollow or the Source saying that, because neither would want the Hollow put back in its box. That's still Cole, the same Cole we see at the end of this scene: Again, the Seer is lying. There is no void that the powers went into - either into Neverneverland or the void in Cole since there is no void in Cole. Instead the Source powers stayed in Cole because there was no Source for them to go to. He became the Source because he still had those powers, not because he was possessed by the Source. Also note that Cole is the same exact one at the end when we see this: Note that Cole still has exactly what he had before they put the Hollow back in its box. He's still Cole with the Source's powers - the Hollow absorbed them in at the time that they vanquished the Source. But Cole was still Cole when he told them to do what the Seer said and that she was an evil person. Not possessed, just infected with the powers. More importantly, he does *not* have the sisters' powers. If he was truly *possessed* by the Hollow and not just infected by it, he would've taken those in when he took in the Source's and truly been possessed and more dangerous with all the powers. But he doesn't. He's still Cole. The only way the Hollow would corrupt Cole more is if Cole took in more powers. He never does, so he's always Cole, the victim of his own choosing - choosing to believe someone who could not be believed - and still culpable for all of his actions. Right? If I'm wrong please use these quotes to show where I am - just remember, you can't trust a word the Seer says - everything she said she said for one reason and one reason only - so she could become the power behind the Phoetus. Now what happened to Cole when he went to the Demonic Wasteland (the worst concept Kern ever came up, even more than a living whitelighter - just like we never saw Rex and Hannah once they were vanqished, we never should've seen Cole again once he was - all part of showing that S4-8 is an alternate-universe spin-off) and took in all of those powers, that's a totally different story. But none of that would've happened had he not listened to and believed the Seer. So everything that happened is *his* fault, not the Charmed Ones - they're the victims, not him, right? (Source for all quotes: charmedscripts.tv/charmed_and_dangerous.htm) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 21:39:11 GMT -5
Can we please drop this whole Cole/Source stuff and get back to talking about the comics? Hasn't the Cole/Source topic been beaten to death already here at the Cafe? We don't need another thread about it, thank you very much. It's just the same old arguments going round and round in an endless loop. SERIOUSLY.  This thread is about the comics, not bickering over and whining about Cole. It's getting tiresome seeing the same old arguments and complaints over and over again. |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Dec 25, 2015 22:30:43 GMT -5
But this is also Phoebe's fault for not telling Cole about him getting hit by a fireball or energy ball sooner rather than later when the Sources plan was already in play. That drove him to listen to the Seers plan in taking in the hollow which led him to become the Source.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 23:52:36 GMT -5
Can we please drop this whole Cole/Source stuff and get back to talking about the comics? Hasn't the Cole/Source topic been beaten to death already here at the Cafe? We don't need another thread about it, thank you very much. It's just the same old arguments going round and round in an endless loop.SERIOUSLY. This thread is about the comics, not bickering over and whining about Cole. It's getting tiresome seeing the same old arguments and complaints over and over again.Then don't read them. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2015 0:34:11 GMT -5
But this is a thread about the comics. When I come here, I want to read about them, not the beaten to death Cole/Source thing, or Es's rubbish head canon (seasons four through eight were set in an alternate universe).
IMO, this is one of the reasons Charmed fandom is in such sorry shape, the same old arguments going round and round, the same old dead horses being beaten and beaten again. It's no wonder that so many have left Charmed behind and moved on to the greener pastures of Supernatural, The Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Agent Carter, etc. It seems there is nothing new left to talk about in regards to Charmed anymore. Charmed's even shrinking fandom seems to be time locked in the first half of the first decade of this century.
Now can we please, for the love of God, get back to the comics? Canon or not, they're the only fresh thing about Charmed that's come out in years.
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Post by Nimue on Dec 26, 2015 1:15:23 GMT -5
But this is a thread about the comics. When I come here, I want to read about them, not the beaten to death Cole/Source thing, or Es's rubbish head canon (seasons four through eight were set in an alternate universe). IMO, this is one of the reasons Charmed fandom is in such sorry shape, the same old arguments going round and round, the same old dead horses being beaten and beaten again. It's no wonder that so many have left Charmed behind and moved on to the greener pastures of Supernatural, The Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Agent Carter, etc. It seems there is nothing new left to talk about in regards to Charmed anymore. Charmed's even shrinking fandom seems to be time locked in the first half of the first decade of this century. Now can we please, for the love of God, get back to the comics? Canon or not, they're the only fresh thing about Charmed that's come out in years. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 26, 2015 2:04:04 GMT -5
You have a point about this being the comics thread: we really should move the Cole conversation to his thread. But put an end to it? No. Because I haven't taken part in a debate concerning Cole and the Source before, and would quite like to. I know I'll have nothing new to say, but I would still like that chance. And I see no reason not to continue it right here. After all, the comics are all about Cole right now and what people's reaction towards what happened to him in S4 has a lot to do with their reaction towards how Pat Shand is canonizing him right now. It's just like discussing Chris in the S5 thread since he showed up at the end of S5 even though all of the discussion on him actually has to do with what happened to him in S6, not S5. But that kept that thread going the same way this is keeping this thread going. And since you haven't had that chance, Nimue, if you got a chance to rewatch "Charmed and Dangerous" and can show me where I'm wrong so my reaction towards the comics will be different (because honestly, if you don't like Cole, S10 is even more boring than S6 if you don't like Chris or S8 if you don't like Billie because she shows how horrible and unlikable the Charmed Ones have become, the reason why people who are actually reading the comics aren't discussing it - there's no storyline worth discussing right now - we're waiting for something worth talking about to happen), I'd love to hear it - in this thread. And if anyone else who has actually read the comics wants to make any other comments and take it in another direction, that would be great, too. Otherwise, anyone who thinks that we shouldn't be discussing this here, kwitcherbitchin' *shakes her head* And people wonder why I have such people blocked so the only time I have to read their gripes is when someone else replies to them...the forum is so much better when you don't have to read posts that are just people griping about other people not doing what they want to do. When will they ever learn that it's better to light one candle than to curse the darkness? |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 26, 2015 3:50:05 GMT -5
But this is also Phoebe's fault for not telling Cole about him getting hit by a fireball or energy ball sooner rather than later when the Sources plan was already in play. That drove him to listen to the Seers plan in taking in the hollow which led him to become the Source. Can you find where that is in the scripts? I don't remember it at all. Again, the scripts are here: charmedscripts.tv. Thanks! This is why I don't mind having opposite views of most fans - it keeps the threads going. And I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong. In this case, I really want to be proven wrong so I can enjoy Pat Shand's canonization of Cole - maybe even find a reason to buy and enjoy the S4 DVD and let my Charmed (not the real Charmed vs. the alternate-universe spin-off, since that will always be the case to me - it's the only way to explain all the differences) end with "Witch Way Now?" rather than "All Hell Breaks Loose" - but I really don't think I can be. |
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Post by sol on Dec 26, 2015 4:51:28 GMT -5
I never read the comics and I am not interessed, it's never a good idea keep a tv serie alive for a long time, it's unavoidable being out of ideas and starting to revive old situations
I agree with you about Cole and I don't blame him, he wished to change his life for love, not because he wished to have a life with humans , to be part of the good side and sometimes, love isn't enough
I think that maybe he wasn't full aware of the risks but he needed desperately his powers back and it was right, that powers were part of him, he hated being a weak man not even able to helpd the love of his life
He'ld have to speak with the sisters, right away his talk with the Seer, they'ld make an effort into finding a solution, not only Phoebe, but also Piper and Leo considered Cole part of their family
Paige not, but she'ld anyway help
He didn't talk because he didn't not give sufficient consideration to the sister's ability to deal with the Source
He did the same mistake that Prue did, too self-confidence, too boldness, humans sins
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Post by Nimue on Dec 26, 2015 6:38:50 GMT -5
But this is also Phoebe's fault for not telling Cole about him getting hit by a fireball or energy ball sooner rather than later when the Sources plan was already in play. That drove him to listen to the Seers plan in taking in the hollow which led him to become the Source. Can you find where that is in the scripts? I don't remember it at all. Again, the scripts are here: charmedscripts.tv. Thanks! This is why I don't mind having opposite views of most fans - it keeps the threads going. And I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong. In this case, I really want to be proven wrong so I can enjoy Pat Shand's canonization of Cole - maybe even find a reason to buy and enjoy the S4 DVD and let my Charmed (not the real Charmed vs. the alternate-universe spin-off, since that will always be the case to me - it's the only way to explain all the differences) end with "Witch Way Now?" rather than "All Hell Breaks Loose" - but I really don't think I can be.
Oh, and in Season 4, Phoebe had Cole leave the house so he wouldn't be around when the demon attacked with the energy/fire ball. She used Piper's car as an excuse. She wouldn't tell him why, either; that was in Charmed and Dangerous, the same episode they vanquish the Source. Big mistake, Phoebe. |
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Post by Chrisaholic on Dec 26, 2015 10:15:08 GMT -5
I still see this whole Cole/Source discussion as the Seer's plan to make Cole the new Source and the answers are given to me here. If I remember correctly, Phoebe sent Cole away at first to have him safe because of her premonition of him possibly dying for here. One key moment is for me that neither Phoebe nor Cole would know that he'd take in the Hollow, because the Seer digged also on his protecting side, but this time for Phoebe. As for Cole naming Belthazor. His human body would always be recognized as Belthazor, even though it doesn't exist anymore as it's being said here. Then comes the whole taking in the Hollow and the battle in the Manor's attic where another key scene is. (both bolding mine) And yes, there was a void. In Cole's body where his demonic half used to sit and now the Source will take place!! He might not be fighting back at first but in the following episode he did - until he lost. End of discussion for me!  |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Dec 26, 2015 11:06:11 GMT -5
It just seems like everything Cole did he did it for her. I don't know maybe I'm wrong on this.
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This thread is about the comics, not bickering over and whining about Cole. It's getting tiresome seeing the same old arguments and complaints over and over again.
