sky1
Familiar
Posts: 304 
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Post by sky1 on Aug 14, 2019 1:57:59 GMT -5
Okay . . . why would Phoebe and Cole's baby have to become evil and the future Source? When the Seer first sensed Phoebe's baby, she had a vision of him becoming a powerful force of good. That's why she had created a potion to dictate his future moral compass in the first place. You mean to say that if Phoebe had remained pregnant, the sisters would not have been able to create their own potion or spell to overcome the Seer's potion? This is why "CHARMED" had become so frustrating to me over the years. It never really allowed the major characters to mature by allowing them to retain this black-and-white morality. Even other fantasy shows like "BUFFY" and "ONCE UPON A TIME" were able to evolve beyond such writing. Why couldn't "CHARMED" do this? I thought it was going to do so by mid-Season Three, but in the end, the series paid the occasional lip service to the idea of moral ambiguity before abandoning it altogether. What a waste! But in “womb raider” phoebe said that the baby felt like pure evil. I don’t think there was any good in him.
Wasn't that after Cole was gone. So the Sources essence took over the baby? Iirc before that the child did not display any evil.
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Post by Elle Em on Aug 14, 2019 8:46:45 GMT -5
I think by the time Womb Raider came around, the writers wanted to get rid of the baby. The only way to do that and not seem cold and heartless was to write the baby off as not a baby, but a black hole of evil. That way, it's easier to accept his death.
I don't think the baby was destined to be the Source or just evil. For one thing, the Seer saw him as being a great force for good unless they intervened. Also, the baby existed while Cole was still the Source. It could be argued that he inherited the Source powers and truly became evil with Cole's death, but the point is he once existed and showed no signs of evil until after Cole was dead.
This whole arc was filled with mistakes as far as how Cole was blamed for everything and everyone forgave Phoebe without a second thought, and also how everyone failed to recognize the humanity of their child. Phoebe chose to be evil with Cole before having any tonic from the Seer. Phoebe made the decision to leave Cole while pregnant with a supposedly evil baby, but not under the influence of the tonic. Cole needed to be tricked to become the Source, and it was unclear how much of that was influence versus possession. The baby was not seen as evil until after Cole died. This whole story is full of holes that don't amount to making much sense when it's all looked at together.
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Post by egbert on Aug 14, 2019 10:58:42 GMT -5
Elle Em, the source feels the feelings of his host with the control through him that was the love for his father and the sadness of his death, too the anger against Paige who was legitimate and (human), that the pure demons without soul can not have, as Cole's love for Phoebe , Leo and broody had the same feeling for the loss of a precious being with a anger against Gideon and the avatars as the son of phoebe
without the possession of the source the child is normal no different of baby manticore , the son of Phoebe was too (a half demon with a soul) not a black hole of evil and could still be saved for my part
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Post by gzv969 on Aug 14, 2019 22:12:14 GMT -5
But in “womb raider” phoebe said that the baby felt like pure evil. I don’t think there was any good in him.
Wasn't that after Cole was gone. So the Sources essence took over the baby? Iirc before that the child did not display any evil.
I believe the baby was always evil. Remember it was the seers fertility potion and Tonic mixed with Coles blood and mixed into chocolate that made phoebe fertile, helping her to conceive an evil spawn from Coles demonic seed. Chocolate that piper ate also and conceived Wyatt 6 episodes later (but that’s another topic for discussion). And the seer kept giving phoebe the tonic long after she conceived. So the baby was always pure evil. And phoebe was already tapping into the baby’s evil powers while Cole was alive. Throwing Fire flames, touching the evil book etc. The Fifth Halliwheel” Long Live The Queen I’m also convinced the chocolate piper ate had a hand in why Wyatt became drawn to evil at some point and too powerful. |
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forbuss
Witch
currently watching season seven
Posts: 1,748
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Post by forbuss on Aug 14, 2019 22:25:53 GMT -5
I do really like this scene! Someone, I forget who, said it would be a much better segway into the next episode after time had passed.
However, the original ending is my favourite moment in all of Charmed. The sisterhood. No words were needed!
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Post by summerreading on Aug 15, 2019 0:29:23 GMT -5
I do really like this scene! Someone, I forget who, said it would be a much better segway into the next episode after time had passed. However, the original ending is my favourite moment in all of Charmed. The sisterhood. No words were needed! I still love the original ending, but this would make a fantastic opening scene to the next one, especially if Phoebe had not come out of her room in a day or so. It does make me wonder how far ahead they planned, it seemed like S4 was written as the final season, and they wrapped up plots, had they know they were getting an S5, they might have not rushed that arc out. |
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Post by gzv969 on Aug 15, 2019 12:21:40 GMT -5
I do really like this scene! Someone, I forget who, said it would be a much better segway into the next episode after time had passed. However, the original ending is my favourite moment in all of Charmed. The sisterhood. No words were needed! I still love the original ending, but this would make a fantastic opening scene to the next one, especially if Phoebe had not come out of her room in a day or so. It does make me wonder how far ahead they planned, it seemed like S4 was written as the final season, and they wrapped up plots, had they know they were getting an S5, they might have not rushed that arc out. Agreed |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 15, 2019 17:50:58 GMT -5
Wasn't that after Cole was gone. So the Sources essence took over the baby? Iirc before that the child did not display any evil.
I believe the baby was always evil. Remember it was the seers fertility potion and Tonic mixed with Coles blood and mixed into chocolate that made phoebe fertile, helping her to conceive an evil spawn from Coles demonic seed. Chocolate that piper ate also and conceived Wyatt 6 episodes later (but that’s another topic for discussion). And the seer kept giving phoebe the tonic long after she conceived. So the baby was always pure evil. And phoebe was already tapping into the baby’s evil powers while Cole was alive. Throwing Fire flames, touching the evil book etc. The Fifth Halliwheel” Long Live The Queen I’m also convinced the chocolate piper ate had a hand in why Wyatt became drawn to evil at some point and too powerful. I used to think that but no longer do. After all, reread what the Seer said the potion would do (I bolded it) - it didn't make the person eating it turn evil; it allowed them to accept DEMON seed. Cole was shooting demon seed; Leo wasn't. Per the show's mythology (which, of course, is crap, but...) I think it had more to do with the fact that like Phoebe, he was born in the Manor so he was more influenced by the spiritual and wiccan nexus on which the Manor was built. But even more than that, I think it's due to the way Piper raised him - to be self-centered like her and to use magic however the hell he wanted without any consequences like her - after Leo became an Elder and was no longer around. I don't think Gideon had much to do with it, nor do I think Wyatt was ever in the Underworld - that was the vision that Barbas gave Leo and was not real. All you have to do is watch 'Imaginary Fiends" and you know that he would've turned evil with Gideon or without him. It was Leo's presence that prevented him from turning evil in the new future that included Leo as a non-Elder or Avatar, but just Daddy, his most important role. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 19, 2019 15:28:04 GMT -5
That was due to the potion that the Seer had fed Phoebe. You do remember that . . . right? She had added her own blood to the potion. Are you telling me that the Charmed Ones couldn't find a way to overcome the Seer's potion?
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Aaeiyn
Elder
✨The Amazing Phoebe✨
Posts: 5,554
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 22, 2021 6:43:42 GMT -5
I've heard of this before and still prefer the ending we got. I like deeper meaning scenes (that make you think), than the show telling me what's going on.
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Post by egbert on Oct 29, 2024 15:49:05 GMT -5
I've heard of this before and still prefer the ending we got. I like deeper meaning scenes (that make you think), than the show telling me what's going on. except that the ending we saw of "Long Live the Queen" was an alternate version, in the original ending the bond between Phoebe and the child is very different Phoebe has a sincere love for him, it is clear that the writers had planned to keep him in the series, a lot of things confirm this, in the original Phoebe recognizes the child as her son in the alternative no, in the original Phoebe had understood Cole's possession, in the alternative she never knew, in the original the prophetess recognized Phoebe as the mother, in the alternative no, as Julian had signed a contract for one and a half seasons at the end of season 3 and it is clear that the end of the negotiations with the actor Julian to stay ended during the script of the episode "long live the queen" because when leaving the writers could not keep the child in the series as planned, which means that Wyatt is very probably a replacement for the child of season 4 because why make a pregnant Piper appear after the sudden change in the concept ? |
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Aaeiyn
Elder
✨The Amazing Phoebe✨
Posts: 5,554
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Post by Aaeiyn on Oct 29, 2024 23:10:12 GMT -5
I've heard of this before and still prefer the ending we got. I like deeper meaning scenes (that make you think), than the show telling me what's going on. except that the ending we saw of "Long Live the Queen" was an alternate version, in the original ending the bond between Phoebe and the child is very different Phoebe has a sincere love for him, it is clear that the writers had planned to keep him in the series, a lot of things confirm this, in the original Phoebe recognizes the child as her son in the alternative no, in the original Phoebe had understood Cole's possession, in the alternative she never knew, in the original the prophetess recognized Phoebe as the mother, in the alternative no, as Julian had signed a contract for one and a half seasons at the end of season 3 and it is clear that the end of the negotiations with the actor Julian to stay ended during the script of the episode "long live the queen" because when leaving the writers could not keep the child in the series as planned, which means that Wyatt is very probably a replacement for the child of season 4 because why make a pregnant Piper appear after the sudden change in the concept ? Oh wow, I've definitely changed my mind, on a lot of things since 3 years ago (the post you responded to, in question). IDK if I feel the same way, as I did LOL |
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Post by angelap on Nov 23, 2024 18:40:20 GMT -5
I like the ending we got. But this would've been great if the material had been saved for the next episode, but only if Phoebe got to keep the baby and the story had a different ending.
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