Warlocks vs Demons

[Esmeralda]

Saw this at another site and found it very interesting. It's part of a thread called "Was Shax Too Over The Top?" and started like this:

He looked and behaved very different than any other demon or warlock.
I personally thought he was over the top. He looked and acted as if he had overdosed on ecstasy.

Another member replied:

I would have preferred more demons like him.

There was little distinction to be drawn between warlocks and demons. Early on, we see that warlocks are evil counterparts of witches, thus making them very human. Demons, on the other hand, were meant to be pure evil and thus more animalistic or other-worldly. While we see this distinction is clearer in the earlier seasons, it's lost in later Seasons.

I like Shax because he FELT like a demon. He wished for nothing than to hurt innocents and serve the Source. He seemed barely human, even though he appeared so. I wished we would have gotten more like him. All demons that followed could have easily just been evil witches with energy balls. This is VERY apparent when we're introduced to the Phoenix Witches, who are no different than demons in powers and mannerisms. If they were introduced as Phoenix Warlocks or Phoenix Demons, there'd be no difference to their characterization, as demons and witches were only distinguished by their powers, at this point.

If I had my way, we would have gotten more demons like Shax, the Manticores, Windigos, ect. Warlocks (and darklighters and half-demons) should be only evil beings who can blend in with mortals. Without a distinction between the species, what makes them different beyond their motives (which, as seen in the show, can easily change depending on the plot)?

A third member replied:

I couldn't have said it better. The demons that looked like demons were the best. The leather dressed demons with energy balls and shimmering were very unimaginative. Take Zankou...he's supposed to be big and bad, but really was as intimidating as a hangnail. Having demons resembles humans was a mistake. If they didn't have the funds then they should have ignored demons and focused on warlocks, or other evil beings.

[/quote]

The second member replied:

It always bothered me how quickly warlocks became second-class citizens in the Underworld. If they are the counter-parts of witches and witches are amongst the most powerful good beings in the magical world, why are warlocks so easily looked down upon?

There's further insult to their species when we discover that ANY demon can cast spells. Witches just specialize in it while warlocks just specialize in stealing witch powers (and they aren't even any good at that). If I had my way, demons would have been reserved as MAJOR threats as they should be the counterparts of angels. Warlocks should have remained the most common threat to the Charmed Ones.

The the producers were worried about continuity, they could have used warlocks as much as they used demons and saved the heavy make-up, prosthetic, and special effects for demons that looked truly monstrous. Likewise, I would have replaced the ongoing threat of the Triad for the Rowe Coven. The Cursed Ones should have remained as ongoing side-villains to the Charmed Ones, showing the balance and eternal struggle of witches and their warlock counterparts.

I agree totally. I guess that's what I hate about what Kern did starting n Season Three more than anything else - making demons the main adversary rather than warlocks. What about you?

[Sadrick]

It's been one of the focal points of my criticism towards Season 3. If they wanted to, the warlocks could have been written as the frontline soldiers for the evil hierarchy while demons continue to remain at prestigious levels with distinct titles and powers. They would be primarily non-human in appearance with beings such as Cole, a half-demon hybrid with the ability to blend into society, becoming an anomalous rarity with very few in existence.

Of course, I would be hoping to expand the different kinds of species on evil's side because limiting the scope of characters to just demons and warlocks would get old. Delving more into the various types of Darklighters would be a good step. Then perhaps they could expand upon the Lords of War concept by introducing various clans of supernatural warriors like the one Gabriel hails from that would be aligned with either side depending on their objectives and moral compasses. It would add a new twist because you would have humans, actual humans, choosing evil which could help provide a layer of complexity to the series (no twisted morphing into inhumane beings like warlocks). Lastly, you would have the dark and sinister creatures like the Wendigo being bred/created for evil purposes.

[Deleted]

After Kern seized power, Warlocks virtually disappeared from the show.  The last Warlock to appear was the rubbish one in the rubbish episode, Witchstock.

[lilchi7212]

It's fantasy people writers can do what they want.

[Deleted]

It's fantasy people writers can do what they want.

That's a cop out answer if I ever heard one.  You willing to let Kern off the hook for bad writing because "it's fantasy".  Sorry, I cannot.

[Deleted]

Warlocks started out so strong on Charmed.  Rex and Hannah, Rodriguez, Nicholas, and Jeremy come to mind here.

Too bad the last Warlock was that pathetic loser on Witchstock.  What a horrible episode to end on.

[Granny Charmed]

Gosh dont we all *wish* dears Warlocks were more major importance throughout the show. I would have bought the ultimate battle if Christy was a warlock. Like I understand the idea of Billie and Christy, but making them Warlocks or Billie *yet* to kill an innocent and become one to fulfill her destiny - Makes way more sense.

But our writers, completely focused on such corny demons in later years, except a rare select view.

*If* they do a reboot one day - which by then I would be sadly too old or dead. Make Warlocks a greater impact on the show and maybe the big bad and ultimate enemy our girls face being a powerful Warlock.

But having read Brad Kerns interview on the anniversary. I cringe when he says season 1 was only testing the waters. No doubt - he *hated* Warlocks and wanted Demons more central. Explains why they lost many writers even after our first year. Please keep him away dears from *any* future revivals or reboots. GrannyCharmed won't be watching his shows again.

[Deleted]

But having read Brad Kerns interview on the anniversary. I cringe when he says season 1 was only testing the waters.

As I said, Kern no doubt looks down on Season One because it's the season he was least involved in.  Yeah, he wrote some episodes, but S1 was Connie's season through and through.

It must really get under Kern's skins that a lot of fans, like me, prefer Connie's seasons over his

[West]

Oh definitely. Season 1 was far better than people give it credit for. Kern just had little power. Its not until season 2 that he started to gain more control, when season 1 writers were dumped and the first tiff between him and Connie started over keeping Leo.

I agree with grannycharmed that Warlocks should of been more significant in the series. You bring up interesting points on Christy being a Warlock and Billie not having killed an innocent yet to join her.

But had Kern done that, then Christy wouldnt be worth saving. No doubt Billie wouldnt turn and can only be redeemed if she doesnt kill and become a warlock herself.

I do wish the big bads were warlocks in season 8. Had the Rowe Coven story not happened, It would be better served in season 8 instead. Perhaps they could be Billie and Christy still but adding a third sister. I dont know. Ponder that more.

Demons were better as demon of the week stories and not major. Ive come around since my teen years to see they were not as good as they were growing up storywise.

[Granny Charmed]

May 24, 2016 11:46:49 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

But having read Brad Kerns interview on the anniversary. I cringe when he says season 1 was only testing the waters.

As I said, Kern no doubt looks down on Season One because it's the season he was least involved in.  Yeah, he wrote some episodes, but S1 was Connie's season through and through.

It must really get under Kern's skins that a lot of fans, like me, prefer Connie's seasons over his

Oh he must be scratching his head in * *disbelief* on why people love the early years like us.

[Granny Charmed]

May 25, 2016 0:58:21 GMT -5 West said:

Oh definitely. Season 1 was far better than people give it credit for. Kern just had little power. Its not until season 2 that he started to gain more control, when season 1 writers were dumped and the first tiff between him and Connie started over keeping Leo.

I agree with grannycharmed that Warlocks should of been more significant in the series. You bring up interesting points on Christy being a Warlock and Billie not having killed an innocent yet to join her.

But had Kern done that, then Christy wouldnt be worth saving. No doubt Billie wouldnt turn and can only be redeemed if she doesnt kill and become a warlock herself.

I do wish the big bads were warlocks in season 8. Had the Rowe Coven story not happened, It would be better served in season 8 instead. Perhaps they could be Billie and Christy still but adding a third sister. I dont know. Ponder that more.

Demons were better as demon of the week stories and not major. Ive come around since my teen years to see they were not as good as they were growing up storywise.

I do enjoy the early seasons take on demons. I quite liked the ones in season 1.

Cole should of been a *Warlock* than a Demon. I could of enjoyed the witch/warlock romance explored *in depth* more. My granddaughter pointed out that Connie wanted that. Is there more truth to that?

[sol]

There are always a lot of rumors, in general I think they are legend:repeat many times a lie it'll become a truth

I like smart demons like Cole, Zankou, the first Triad, the "desaparecido" Council, Crone, Dumain, Tempus, Nomed, remarkable enemies
In the first season there were more original characters, thanks to Robert Masello, journalist and apreciated scholar, author of two popular studies of black magic and occult

[Deleted]

Warlocks really got lost in the shuffle, didn't they.

Amazing that, in Season One, demons were a very minor thing.  Wish they'd stayed that way.

[Esmeralda]

The only reason why I like generic demons is that some of the ones who were supposed to be demons just looked like actors in bad makeup. The funny thing is Jeremy in Season 1 - who's supposed to be a warlock - was more demonic than most of the demons. I would've preferred the demons being more like him, the warlocks being more like the darklighters, and the darklighters more like the demons, if that makes sense.

Darklighters, who also should've been a major enemy, were also lost in the shuffle once "demons" (nothing demonic about any of them...the S7 Elders were more demonic than any of the demons, the Source included) tok over in S3. Maybe I should count S3 as part of the alternate-universe spin-off and not part of Charmed...

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2016 10:54:44 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

The only reason why I like generic demons is that some of the ones who were supposed to be demons just looked like actors in bad makeup. The funny thing is Jeremy in Season 1 - who's supposed to be a warlock - was more demonic than most of the demons. I would've preferred the demons being more like him, the warlocks being more like the darklighters, and the darklighters more like the demons, if that makes sense.

Darklighters, who also should've been a major enemy, were also lost in the shuffle once "demons" (nothing demonic about any of them...the S7 Elders were more demonic than any of the demons, the Source included) tok over in S3. Maybe I should count S3 as part of the alternate-universe spin-off and not part of Charmed...

I really didn't understand this, but I assume the writers weren't yet sure in which direction they were taking warlocks - one minute they were simply evil human witches, the next they were monsters. You're right, apart from the Grimlocks, the Source, Belthazor and the Furies most demons became increasingly human-like... in black trenchcoats.

[Deleted]

Isn't a Warlock a witch (male or female) who has broken their oath, or something to that effect?

[StoryGirl83]

Sounds about right. The "fun" thing is that we don't just have witches and warlocks in that mix, but we also have evil witches. Personally I like mixing Supernatural's take on witches into the mix to make four things total (which we do have another type of witch, but I like the way those two blend better, so here's how it looks mixing supernatural into the mix:

Supernaturally powered: Witches (good) and warlocks (evil)
Artificially powered: Good witches and evil witches

Using that, evil witches such as Talutha would be humans born without powers who gained them through artificial means. Unfortunately that doesn't really work for the Stillman sisters, since I cannot see them being able to gain enough powers to do even as much as they did without learning a lot more about using their powers. Still, it's the way I think it makes the most sense, so I choose to overlook that issue at the moment. They would be witches like Gail and her friends who were generally on the side of evil. This would also explain how the sisters were warlocks without killing anyone in Bride and Gloom[/b]. Using that explanation, I go with the thought that killing innocents makes it harder to return from being a warlock and that killing fellow witches makes it the hardest of all (although I think it should be the other way around). I refused to believe that a warlock cannot become a witch.

One bizarre "fact" we know about warlocks is that they don't bleed. As far as I know that was not explored beyond the one episode and we know that Jeremy bled, so it's contraditory. One idea that I have heard on this is that half-warlocks (such as Brandan Rowe) bleed and full warlocks do not, which would imply that Jeremy was a half-warlock. The theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's the only one I've heard to explain that issue. If anyone has a better one (besides inconsistancies, which obviously was the case), I would love to hear it.

The model of types of witches above combines Charmed and Supernatural. What we actually saw was:

• Witches: Good, mortal, some were protectors of innocents
• Evil Witches: Seem to be former witches who hadn't killed other witches. This fits for the Stillman sisters, but definitely not for Talutha. I cannot imagine that she never killed a witch, but she is clearly called an evil witch.
• Warlocks: Evil, no longer mortal . . . at least don't have a mortal lifespan, allegedly don't bleed (although I don't think we ever saw a warlock that didn't). Power made (unless they are half warlocks). I think it said somewhere that they could not become witches, but witches could become warlocks. It hardly seems to make sense, especially for those born warlocks. Which is another thing. Warlocks, born warlocks seem to have the potential to go good if completely raised away from evil influences (in general).

As best as I can tell, that model is what we saw on Charmed. I've written more on the subject, which I can share if it seems relevant. Anyone have comments on what I said or have something that contradicts it. I find the subject fascinating and would love to see if you think I have it right and what you think of my theories on it.

[Deleted]

Warlocks: Evil, no longer mortal . . . at least don't have a mortal lifespan, allegedly don't bleed (although I don't think we ever saw a warlock that didn't). Power made (unless they are half warlocks). I think it said somewhere that they could not become witches, but witches could become warlocks. It hardly seems to make sense, especially for those born warlocks. Which is another thing. Warlocks, born warlocks seem to have the potential to go good if completely raised away from evil influences (in general).

This kind of fits into what I wrote in the Rex and Hannah Chronicles. 

I my fourth R&H story, Revelations, the Angel Of Destiny offered to return R&H's souls to them, which they had given up when they became Warlocks.  However, the pay off what that, once their souls had been returned, they would became mortal again.  They would age normally and be vulnerable to illness and injuries, like any normal human would be.

R&H agreed to the terms, and got their souls back.  Although they both retained their respective powers, they can really no longer be classed as Warlocks.  I guess you can call them witches now (although I've never had them use the term in regards to each other).

Since canon was totally silent on the whole issue, one cannot really say my position is wrong.

[StoryGirl83]

Makes sense. Based off that, I would say that they are witches in your series since that point. Nothing says you have to call them that. There are plenty of things that writers imply or straight out don't tell their readers that they know about their characters.

In the fanfic I am currently working on, there is a family of warlocks that is at the center of the story. In the prologue, the matriarch of the family leads her family in performing a ritual that turns all of them into warlocks. This includes the matriarch, her five adult (or teen) children, and all of her grandchildren (nine in all), two of whom were not present. In present day, nearly four hundred years later, all of them are still technically warlocks (well, all but one who went out of his way to try and get rid of his powers in order to get his family off his trail), but some of them don't want that (the one who is no longer a warlock as of about twenty years ago and the two who weren't present at the ritual (which included the murder of a witch). It's been interesting exploring the idea of warlocks in this story and I will be keeping some of these characters for a return trip to my fanfic universe. I have killed off two members of the family, but there is a lot more to do in order to end the threat they represent.

[Granny Charmed]

I've said my feeling on the show dears and that I *wished* Warlocks were more important and Demons used like in season 1.

However I could buy Witches who kill innocents become Warlocks and Warlocks who do enough good become Witches. That would of put a stop to the hybrid issues, and if Cole *truly* wanted to be good, and was made warlock than a half demon. I could get behind him doing enough good and becoming a witch. No need to have half's here.

As mentioned in interviews, Brad Kern hated season 1, since he was working with Connie full-time. No doubt firing a few season 1 writers - the same ones who wrote *fantastic* mythology based episodes. No doubt the Mythology and Witch expert got the sack and they got a new one in season 2. Because so much of the mythology got changed as we got to season 2 and 3, and the rules kept being altered episode to episode.


Its too bad the Rowe Coven could of made a decent season-arc - with changes of course. The Witches vs. Warlocks really needed to be a huge part of the series mythology. Now here's something my granddaughter wondered - Could Cole have worked better as a Warlock and apart of a Warlock Coven - *Evil Charmed Ones* with his two brothers, my granddaughter got a kick out of Jeremy and Rex being those brothers, It could be a neat fanfiction story - has anyone here attempted that ever?. Now I dont want Cole to be half-warlock, so if he does enough good and becomes a witch over simply stripping his warlock half and becoming mortal. hmm