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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 7:24:15 GMT -5
Watching the early seasons back i can't help but cringe at seeing her use martial arts. I love martial arts don't get me wrong, it's just to obvious that the writers felt the need to let a demon slip by Prue or Piper's powers so Phoebe could kick him. Can't remember which ep I was watching but 3 demons attacked the sisters at the manor and instead of Piper freezing all three demons, one is frozen, the other is thrown into a wall by Prue's tk, and the third one runs up to Phoebe so he can be kicked & punched.
In the Charmed universe literally every magical being had some form of projectile they could shoot. The writers should've just caved and given Phoebe the fire power her past life had. I enjoyed seeing Phoebe as the Queen of the underworld because she had more fire power so to speak.
Not to mention every Charmed battle later on becoming Piper flicking her hand, Paige tk orbing an object, and the sisters ducking from fire balls. Phoebe became all but useless. She needed something to help her fight. Why not give her some type of eye beam energy attack like those gypsies?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Oct 21, 2015 14:01:40 GMT -5
Phoebe didn't need that kind of power she had a perfectly good first one already which if it been expanded and shown to it's full potential like sharing visions say or anticipating someone's attack then she would've been good enough anyway.
Phoebe had potions still and left over weapons if need be besides
I liked the fact Phoebe could do martial arts as it showed her character growth.
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Post by yinsoul on Oct 21, 2015 14:17:30 GMT -5
Why would she need a projectile?
The writers never took time to let her develop it more, and made her complain about it, but premonitions are actually super overpowered. In fact, I remember in the first or second season it being mentioned as a very desirable power.
Think about it. Properly channeled, trained, you can run circles around any foe because you know what theyre going to do before they do and can put yourself and your allies in whatever position you please. There's glimmers of it here and there, with Phoebe's intuitive fighting, but think of how the Seers used them, completely outwitting whom they chose. Even Zankou did this and he had Phoebe's powers for 30 seconds before he caught the Idiot Ball and let his arrogance get the best of him. She could have done such feats too, if she cared to develop the ability more.
However, as you said, the powers became more about Piper exploding things and fireballs and a lot less about cleverness, which is a shame because that was one of the traits of Phoebe's initial characterization- her street smarts.
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 21, 2015 20:05:47 GMT -5
I agree completely. It's one of many reasons why I wish they'd done something different with Paige. As soon as one of the sisters could orb them to wherever they needed to go, you no longer needed Phoebe's premonitions to give them time to get somewhere to save an innocent.
S1&2 show how very special and important Phoebe's power of premonitions were and why they were needed. S3-8 show how much they weren't.
No wonder why I love S1&S2 so much, don't like S3 and hate S4-8. As you said, once Piper could explode things, it all became all about boring battles and sex and not much else.
It's also another reason I don't want a reboot, because I have a hunch it would be even *more* about that than the original.
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Post by Sadrick on Oct 22, 2015 5:33:42 GMT -5
Phoebe could already defend herself appropriately with martial arts when the need arised. A ranged power would have been unnecessary and redundant when there's already Prue's telekinesis to compensate for offensive force in the Power of Three.
Esmeralda, you do know that using Whitelighters for transporation was introduced as a concept back in P3 H20, yes? It became more pronounced in later seasons, but the concept was there since S2.
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 22, 2015 5:53:33 GMT -5
Yes, but did you notice what Leo - a full whitelighter - had to do in order to transport Piper? He had to hug her. And she was dizzy when she first got there. He also hugged her when they went Up There at the end of Season Two. To my knowledge those were the only times he orbed anyone during Season One or Two, because it was against the rules.
If that's what happened when Paige orbed her sisters (and note - she'd only be able to orb one at a time and that sister would be unable to fight right away once they got there and she had to go back for the other sister), I'd have no problems with it, because Phoebe's power of premonitions would still be important. But for the daughter of a whitelighter who wasn't even dead to be able to just hold hands and orb them - and orb whole crowds of people whose hands she isn't even holding, much less hugging them - is just another proof that S4-8 is an alternate-universe spin-off that only has the names in common with the original true Charmed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 7:19:48 GMT -5
Phoebe had potions still and left over weapons if need be besides I liked the fact Phoebe could do martial arts as it showed her character growth. It may have showcased character growth in the early seasons but at some point she stopped completely. I think the last time she used martial arts was against Chris when he was turned into a spider demon. I don't recall Phoebe using any weapons at all but now that you mention it, I wish they had given her some kind of Excalibur. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 7:20:52 GMT -5
Why would she need a projectile? The writers never took time to let her develop it more, and made her complain about it, but premonitions are actually super overpowered. In fact, I remember in the first or second season it being mentioned as a very desirable power. Think about it. Properly channeled, trained, you can run circles around any foe because you know what theyre going to do before they do and can put yourself and your allies in whatever position you please. There's glimmers of it here and there, with Phoebe's intuitive fighting, but think of how the Seers used them, completely outwitting whom they chose. Even Zankou did this and he had Phoebe's powers for 30 seconds before he caught the Idiot Ball and let his arrogance get the best of him. She could have done such feats too, if she cared to develop the ability more. However, as you said, the powers became more about Piper exploding things and fireballs and a lot less about cleverness, which is a shame because that was one of the traits of Phoebe's initial characterization- her street smarts. I mainly wanted her to have a projectile to give Alyssa, the writers, and the choreographers less work since every power she was given was put on the back burner. Yeah, Phoebe could've become untouchable had they advanced her premonition power. I still have no idea what the writers were thinking giving Prue astral projection. Astral projecting would've went hand in hand with her martial arts better than levitating did. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 7:22:15 GMT -5
It's also another reason I don't want a reboot, because I have a hunch it would be even *more* about that than the original. I kinda want a reboot. Just to see if they'll fix all the mistakes of the previous series. Sadly, a Charmed reboot might go the way of the recent Charlies Angels reboot, which was cancelled after only 3 or 4 episodes aired. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 22, 2015 8:07:54 GMT -5
It's also another reason I don't want a reboot, because I have a hunch it would be even *more* about that than the original. I kinda want a reboot. Just to see if they'll fix all the mistakes of the previous series. Sadly, a Charmed reboot might go the way of the recent Charlies Angels reboot, which was cancelled after only 3 or 4 episodes aired. If it was done right now where it would still be compared to the original, that's undoubtedly what would happen - which is why I don't want one for at least another 20-30 years - hopefully when I'm no longer around. I guess I have no faith in the networks doing things better – only worse. They’d be caught up in the special effects and the sex and totally forget about three sisters who happen to be witches… |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 19:37:48 GMT -5
I would've once agreed that Phoebe could've done with an offensive power, but more and more I am against the idea, as I believe the Power of Three was supposed to represent balance, harmony and strength in many different forms, hence why the original three powers worked perfectly; TK (offensive), Freezing (defensive), Premonition (supportive). I suppose they could've gone in the direction of giving each sister a power from each of these "categories" but then the point of Charmed wasn't to make them 3 Buffys/superheroes.
They totally and utterly messed up the power advancements. It's still one of my biggest problems with the show. I've said before that I would've described each sister's power more generally, thus giving room to advance them better. For example, Phoebe's power should've been described as 'perception' or 'able to see beyond the physical' rather than 'see the future'. From there, I think they should've advanced the powers very slowly and to little fanfare (instead of - 'oh, a new power!'). For example, for Phoebe, I would've liked her power to progress something like:
> visions of the future
> visions of the past
> visions of the present (psychic tracking)
> basic visions of people's dreams
> dream-leaping
> visions of people's thoughts/memories
> enhanced perception/reflexes/intuition - better martial arts/able to detect invisible presences.
> astral projection into subconsciousness (like Rex/Barbas)
> astral projection through physical plane (like Prue) and onto other ones (like ghosts)
> empathic visions
> empathy
> empathic resistance to others' powers (NOT channelling though i.e. reversing fireballs).
> psychic reflection (like in Morality Bites on Cal Greene)
As much I as loved Phoebe's ass-kicking, levitation was a ridiculous power for her to receive, and was much more suited to Prue. I mean, Phoebe barely even used it and Prue even started to levitate/telekinetically enhance her jumps anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 5:06:10 GMT -5
They totally and utterly messed up the power advancements. It's still one of my biggest problems with the show. I've said before that I would've described each sister's power more generally, thus giving room to advance them better. For example, Phoebe's power should've been described as 'perception' or 'able to see beyond the physical' rather than 'see the future'. From there, I think they should've advanced the powers very slowly and to little fanfare (instead of - 'oh, a new power!'). For example, for Phoebe, I would've liked her power to progress something like: > visions of the future > visions of the past > visions of the present (psychic tracking) > basic visions of people's dreams > dream-leaping > visions of people's thoughts/memories > enhanced perception/reflexes/intuition - better martial arts/able to detect invisible presences. > astral projection into subconsciousness (like Rex/Barbas) > astral projection through physical plane (like Prue) and onto other ones (like ghosts) > empathic visions > empathy > empathic resistance to others' powers (NOT channelling though i.e. reversing fireballs). > psychic reflection (like in Morality Bites on Cal Greene) As much I as loved Phoebe's behind-kicking, levitation was a ridiculous power for her to receive, and was much more suited to Prue. I mean, Phoebe barely even used it and Prue even started to levitate/telekinetically enhance her jumps anyway. I always wished Phoebe's powers were more like the Seer's or Kira the demon who wanted to be human. Considering Phoebe is supposed to be one of the most powerful good witches the world will ever know, you'd think by the end of the series she'd be on Piper and Paige's level power wise. I got the idea for this thread from watching an episode in season 6 or 7 where a demon shimmers into the manner and Phoebe runs behind Piper & Paige proclaiming she has no active powers to fight with. I also felt Phoebe's levitation advancement was severely diminished after watching Prue do it during that fight against those wrestlers. It sorta cheapened Phoebe's contribution action wise. |
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Post by West on Oct 24, 2015 5:17:30 GMT -5
Prue should of gotten levitation and phoebe astral projection.
I wasn't so fusses over the powers, well the additional ones. I'd have been more happy with just the original three powers growing. The debate on who should get what and so on always goes on and on.
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 24, 2015 8:22:26 GMT -5
Prue should of gotten levitation and phoebe astral projection. I wasn't so fusses over the powers, well the additional ones. I'd have been more happy with just the original three powers growing. The debate on who should get what and so on always goes on and on. Which is what makes it so much fun and such a popular topic because everyone has their own opinion and none of us are right and none of us are wrong - we just have our opinion. Of course I've always been one who just wanted them to have their original powers that simply grew in distance and control. I never saw a need for anything else, especially if Paige only had TK like Prue's and nothing else. I've never read anything that convinced me that adding powers was ever necessary or that most of the additions were upgrades and not a new power - Prue's astral projection included, since when you astrally project, there is nothing to move, so she's not moving something with her mind. That first change broke the rules and each addition broke the rules worst, ending with Paige becoming a whitelighter and not just a witch with whitelighter powers or (more likely) a living whitelighter with witch powers. Either/or, neither had anything to do with moving things with her mind just like levitation and empathy had nothing to do with seeing the future and explosions had nothing to do with freezing time. All those extra powers did was take away from the Power of Three, making each sister an individual Power of One, who didn't need her sisters as much. They were each born with their original power, one of Melinda Warren's powers - any other was given to them by the Elders, and that was the Elders' biggest mistake outside of letting Piper marry Leo just because they'd saved the Elders' asses. That made the Elders much too human. I *so* preferred the "They" of S1 & S2. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 20:45:46 GMT -5
I always wished Phoebe's powers were more like the Seer's or Kira the demon who wanted to be human. Considering Phoebe is supposed to be one of the most powerful good witches the world will ever know, you'd think by the end of the series she'd be on Piper and Paige's level power wise. I got the idea for this thread from watching an episode in season 6 or 7 where a demon shimmers into the manner and Phoebe runs behind Piper & Paige proclaiming she has no active powers to fight with. I also felt Phoebe's levitation advancement was severely diminished after watching Prue do it during that fight against those wrestlers. It sorta cheapened Phoebe's contribution action wise. Indeed. It was pretty annoying that Kira could basically wipe the floor with Phoebe power-wise. I was like, "This should be Phoebe's powers FFS!". I totally agree with your points, it was infuriating to watch Prue leap and flip around with the wrestlers and Phoebe was just standing there with her mouth hanging open. I mean, I genuinely do not know what the writers were thinking when they wrote that episode. Did they just realise the stupid mistake they'd made in giving Phoebe levitation so gave it to Prue instead? They also did the same with Prue in her fight with Vinceres; a show-off flip up the wall when training with Natalie and a unnecessary somersault flip off the table during their fight with Leo-glamoured-Belthazor. The only time Phoebe got this kind of opportunity was in early S4, against the Furies, Yen Lo and the Source. This is why I wish Phoebe's power had progressed non-offensively, but eventually she would be able to 'withstand' attack (by empathically resisting/channeling powers) rather than be giving an outright offensive power. Sorry, rant over. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 21:14:50 GMT -5
Which is what makes it so much fun and such a popular topic because everyone has their own opinion and none of us are right and none of us are wrong - we just have our opinion. Of course I've always been one who just wanted them to have their original powers that simply grew in distance and control. I never saw a need for anything else, especially if Paige only had TK like Prue's and nothing else. I've never read anything that convinced me that adding powers was ever necessary or that most of the additions were upgrades and not a new power - Prue's astral projection included, since when you astrally project, there is nothing to move, so she's not moving something with her mind. That first change broke the rules and each addition broke the rules worst, ending with Paige becoming a whitelighter and not just a witch with whitelighter powers or (more likely) a living whitelighter with witch powers. Either/or, neither had anything to do with moving things with her mind just like levitation and empathy had nothing to do with seeing the future and explosions had nothing to do with freezing time. All those extra powers did was take away from the Power of Three, making each sister an individual Power of One, who didn't need her sisters as much. They were each born with their original power, one of Melinda Warren's powers - any other was given to them by the Elders, and that was the Elders' biggest mistake outside of letting Piper marry Leo just because they'd saved the Elders' asses. That made the Elders much too human. I *so* preferred the "They" of S1 & S2. Which is why I always maintain that each sister's power was badly categorised at the beginning of the show and that the three "powers" should have been described as: - 'moving objects with the mind' - 'slowing down a moving person' - 'sixth sense' So, Phoebe explanation to Piper in the Pilot would've sounded something like, "She practiced power. Three powers. She could move objects with her mind, slow down a moving person and she had a sixth sense'. This way Piper and Phoebe's powers would've been given much more scope to evolve, which I would've done like this: Prue - movement with the power of the mind (aka moving things with the mind).> optically-controlled telekinesis > hand-controlled telekinesis > defensive use of telekinesis (deflecting energy balls) > enhanced agility (stronger punches, higher jumps) > telekinetic hovering > telekinetic blasts (like Shax or Goddess-Piper) Piper - suspension of molecular speed (aka stopping objects in their tracks). > deceleration/slowing (like P. Baxter) > immobilisation/freezing (her original power) > control over speed of slowing > selective/mixed use of freezing & slowing gives her better reflexes and makes her appear move in hyper speed to her frozen/slowed enemies. > can disrupt movement of an object (as she did with an athame thrown at her by Leo's ghost army friend) > ice-freezing (full immobilisation of movement causes crystallisation) Phoebe - psychic ability to 'see the unseeable' (aka sixth sense/enhanced perception). > visions of the future and past > empathic feeling of subjects in her visions > enhanced perception (can opponents moves in combat/can detect invisible forces, time shifts etc). > subconscious astral projection (first as a 'psychic link, as with the Succubus and Bo) then like Barbas and Rex. > physical astral projection (like Prue) > empathy (emphasis on 'resisting' magical powers/'turning them off' rather than being able to tap into them, and being more easily able to interpret people, like Kira). > psychic reflection (can manipulate emotions (like in Morality Bites). |
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 24, 2015 22:40:03 GMT -5
Which is what makes it so much fun and such a popular topic because everyone has their own opinion and none of us are right and none of us are wrong - we just have our opinion. Of course I've always been one who just wanted them to have their original powers that simply grew in distance and control. I never saw a need for anything else, especially if Paige only had TK like Prue's and nothing else. I've never read anything that convinced me that adding powers was ever necessary or that most of the additions were upgrades and not a new power - Prue's astral projection included, since when you astrally project, there is nothing to move, so she's not moving something with her mind. That first change broke the rules and each addition broke the rules worst, ending with Paige becoming a whitelighter and not just a witch with whitelighter powers or (more likely) a living whitelighter with witch powers. Either/or, neither had anything to do with moving things with her mind just like levitation and empathy had nothing to do with seeing the future and explosions had nothing to do with freezing time. All those extra powers did was take away from the Power of Three, making each sister an individual Power of One, who didn't need her sisters as much. They were each born with their original power, one of Melinda Warren's powers - any other was given to them by the Elders, and that was the Elders' biggest mistake outside of letting Piper marry Leo just because they'd saved the Elders' asses. That made the Elders much too human. I *so* preferred the "They" of S1 & S2. Which is why I always maintain that each sister's power was badly categorised at the beginning of the show and that the three "powers" should have been described as: - 'moving objects with the mind' - 'slowing down a moving person' - 'sixth sense' So, Phoebe explanation to Piper in the Pilot would've sounded something like, "She practiced power. Three powers. She could move objects with her mind, slow down a moving person and she had a sixth sense'. You're right - that would've made a lot more sense. Hopefully that's what the reboot decides to do, when/if they ever have one. It would make for a good start for an alternate-universe series... I'll agree with this ONLY if as they gain one version, they lose the previous. Otherwise they'd be much too powerful all on their own and like the second set of sisters, have no real reason for the Power of Three, the reason why I hate all the extra powers and why I'd still just stick with the original three. (Stubborn, aren't I? But that's what changed them from being three sisters who happened to be witches into three demon-hunters who happened to live in the same house.) The only thing I would've changed is how you originally described their powers so Phoebe seeing both the past and the present made sense and so that Piper only freezing certain people rather than the entire scene made sense. But all of the other powers? No, thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 13:57:13 GMT -5
I'll agree with this ONLY if as they gain one version, they lose the previous. Otherwise they'd be much too powerful all on their own and like the second set of sisters, have no real reason for the Power of Three, the reason why I hate all the extra powers and why I'd still just stick with the original three. (Stubborn, aren't I? But that's what changed them from being three sisters who happened to be witches into three demon-hunters who happened to live in the same house.) The only thing I would've changed is how you originally described their powers so Phoebe seeing both the past and the present made sense and so that Piper only freezing certain people rather than the entire scene made sense. But all of the other powers? No, thanks. Mmm, ok, I like a challenge. perhaps I can convince you with this shortened list - I'm being rather persistent  Prue - movement with the power of the mind ( "moving things with the mind") > optically-controlled telekinesis > hand-controlled telekinesis > defensive use of telekinesis (deflecting energy balls) > enhanced agility (stronger punches, higher jumps) Piper - suspension of molecular speed ( "slowing down a moving object/person") > deceleration/slowing (like P. Baxter) > immobilisation/freezing (her original power) > control over speed of slowing > selective/mixed use of freezing & slowing gives her better reflexes and makes her appear to move in hyper speed to her frozen/slowed enemies. > can disrupt movement of an object (as she did with an athame thrown at her by Leo's ghost army friend) Phoebe - psychic ability ( "a sixth sense") > premonition (visions of the future) > retrocognition (visions of the past) > psychic tracking/locating (visions of the present) > enhanced perception (can predict opponents moves in combat; can detect invisible forces, time shifts etc; can more easily anticipate the future like Kira). Thoughts?  |
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 25, 2015 16:44:32 GMT -5
I'll agree with this ONLY if as they gain one version, they lose the previous. Otherwise they'd be much too powerful all on their own and like the second set of sisters, have no real reason for the Power of Three, the reason why I hate all the extra powers and why I'd still just stick with the original three. (Stubborn, aren't I? But that's what changed them from being three sisters who happened to be witches into three demon-hunters who happened to live in the same house.) The only thing I would've changed is how you originally described their powers so Phoebe seeing both the past and the present made sense and so that Piper only freezing certain people rather than the entire scene made sense. But all of the other powers? No, thanks. Mmm, ok, I like a challenge. perhaps I can convince you with this shortened list - I'm being rather persistent Prue - movement with the power of the mind ( "moving things with the mind") > optically-controlled telekinesis > hand-controlled telekinesis > defensive use of telekinesis (deflecting energy balls) > enhanced agility (stronger punches, higher jumps) Piper - suspension of molecular speed ( "slowing down a moving object/person") > deceleration/slowing (like P. Baxter) > immobilisation/freezing (her original power) > control over speed of slowing > selective/mixed use of freezing & slowing gives her better reflexes and makes her appear to move in hyper speed to her frozen/slowed enemies. > can disrupt movement of an object (as she did with an athame thrown at her by Leo's ghost army friend) Phoebe - psychic ability ( "a sixth sense") > premonition (visions of the future) > retrocognition (visions of the past) > psychic tracking/locating (visions of the present) > enhanced perception (can predict opponents moves in combat; can detect invisible forces, time shifts etc; can more easily anticipate the future like Kira). Thoughts? Congratulations! All of those abilities would indeed be proper applications of their power (especially if Melinda Warren had all of these powers because she could move things with her mind, slow down a moving object/person besides having a certain sixth sense about things...) without making any of them a Power of One – they would all still need their sisters to protect innocents. Had they found they could do each of these things, I’d have no complaints, not like all of the new powers they were given, especially Piper’s explosion power which turned *her* into the Power of One. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 18:25:00 GMT -5
Congratulations! All of those abilities would indeed be proper applications of their power (especially if Melinda Warren had all of these powers because she could move things with her mind, slow down a moving object/person besides having a certain sixth sense about things...) without making any of them a Power of One – they would all still need their sisters to protect innocents. Had they found they could do each of these things, I’d have no complaints, not like all of the new powers they were given, especially Piper’s explosion power which turned *her* into the Power of One. Hooray! The closest we've come to an agreement on the power front. Admittedly, I used to get totally carried away and was of the opinion that each sister should have 3 separate powers. I've totally changed my mind now, though, purely because they should always need each other and always be a unit, as you always said. Now I think of them as similar to Buffy and how her "powers" didn't really change as BtVS went on - she just became more skilled in using them. Also, if the powers had stayed this static the writers would've been forced to get more creative with their plots/fight scenes, instead of the usual - "Paige calls for energy ball, Piper blows up demon" sequence from S4 onwards. I wish someone of Joss Whedon's talent had taken the reigns with Charmed. |
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