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Post by erikamarie on Nov 30, 2015 16:26:31 GMT -5
All Halliwell's Eve is one of my favorite episodes
Personal note: the sisters are often badly dressed but ugly costumes like those they wore are hard to find
Piper's pink dress pink fairy ... thrilling
I was thinking that there are similarities between Melinda and Wyatt's birth: in both births, evil forces are waiting for the coming of a child prophesied as powerful
In both births, the mothers are held captive
In both births, the pure magic, devoid of power, saves the day
This in support of my theory that Wyatt's birth is the beginning of a new prophecy and a new dynasty of witches, the Warren girls have finished their path
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2015 18:35:55 GMT -5
That's a very interesting observation, Erikamarie. And it would be typical Kern of how he tried to turn a show all about girl power into one about girls who are only fulfilled and happy if they get married and have three kids, as shown in the fast-forward.
But I'd agree with you more if all nine kids in "Forever Charmed" were males, not females, especially if Phoebe didn't have three girls or if Leo had three sons.
Now if Chris had been someone else's besides Piper's and Wyatt was Leo's only son, who one day has a son who will have a son who will have a son....and whose descendant 300 years later will have three sons who each have one of Wyatt's powers, then I could agree with you a whole lot more.
As is, I think you're reaching just a bit.
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Post by sol on Dec 1, 2015 3:50:42 GMT -5
It's no mandatory that a dynasty was formed by members of the same sex
Th Warren family has in the family tree males also, perhaps without magical powers if you believe that only the female line got the "magic gene" across
I believe that Penny, as always, went too far
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 4:00:18 GMT -5
I was actually beginning to think that as I was reading your post, Erika. How funny! I am inclined to agree that Wyatt's birth, for all intents and purposes, brought an end to the Warren line. I like to think of these prophecies as similar to Medieval European royal houses – when one reaches its peak, it soon declines in importance and the next generation begins its own dynasty. When the Charmed Ones vanquished the Source their destiny was realised and the Warren dynasty was all but over. Wyatt and his siblings/cousins basically orginated the Halliwell dynasty – a powerful line of Witchlighters. Phoebe’s children are the only truth Warrens left, but would likely be relegated to ‘Lady’ status – distance heirs to the new Halliwell throne.
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2015 7:55:18 GMT -5
I was actually beginning to think that as I was reading your post, Erik. How funny! I am inclined to agree that Wyatt's birth, for all intents and purposes, brought an end to the Warren line. I like to think of these prophecies as similar to Medieval European royal houses – when one reaches its peak, it soon declines in importance and the next generation begins its own dynasty. When the Charmed Ones vanquished the Source their destiny was realised and the Warren dynasty was all but over. Wyatt and his siblings/cousins basically orginated the Halliwell dynasty – a powerful line of Witchlighters. Phoebe’s children are the only truth Warrens left, but would likely be relegated to ‘Lady’ status – distance heirs to the new Halliwell throne. I have to admit it - all of that makes a lot of sense, and probably exactly what Kern had in mind for his alternate-universe spin-off, in which case, I'll apologize to Erikamarie for saying I thought she was reaching. Me, I'll stick to the real Charmed (S1-3) where their destiny was *not* to defeat the Source but to protect innocents, and hence would continue way past the Halliwells with their daughters, because Piper would've had Melinda and Christina, not Wyatt and Chris, just without the Source, they and their cousins would not have to be as powerful as the Charmed Ones, so the prophecy would be true and the powers would indeed culminate with them, with their daughters being able to perform magic, but have no witch power. Only Piper's two daughters would have whitelighter ones (no Paige...) and be pacifists like Leo, not warriors like Kern's Charmed Ones. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 10:05:41 GMT -5
I was actually beginning to think that as I was reading your post, Erik. How funny! I am inclined to agree that Wyatt's birth, for all intents and purposes, brought an end to the Warren line. I like to think of these prophecies as similar to Medieval European royal houses – when one reaches its peak, it soon declines in importance and the next generation begins its own dynasty. When the Charmed Ones vanquished the Source their destiny was realised and the Warren dynasty was all but over. Wyatt and his siblings/cousins basically orginated the Halliwell dynasty – a powerful line of Witchlighters. Phoebe’s children are the only truth Warrens left, but would likely be relegated to ‘Lady’ status – distance heirs to the new Halliwell throne. I have to admit it - all of that makes a lot of sense, and probably exactly what Kern had in mind for his alternate-universe spin-off, in which case, I'll apologize to Erikamarie for saying I thought she was reaching. Me, I'll stick to the real Charmed (S1-3) where their destiny was *not* to defeat the Source but to protect innocents, and hence would continue way past the Halliwells with their daughters, because Piper would've had Melinda and Christina, not Wyatt and Chris, just without the Source, they and their cousins would not have to be as powerful as the Charmed Ones, so the prophecy would be true and the powers would indeed culminate with them, with their daughters being able to perform magic, but have no witch power. Only Piper's two daughters would have whitelighter ones and be pacifists like Leo, not warriors like the Charmed Ones. Yeah, I'm stubborn. But I refuse to believe that just getting rid of the Source when it really didn't stop the more powerful evils - Barbas and Zankou - or even the Source himself, since he showed up in Season 8 and could just keep right on showing up - to be their destiny. I truly think the S4 Angel of Destiny was no more an angel than Kali was a beautiful, kind whatever Aviva thought she was, but just another vessel of the Source powers (like Cole and Half-Face) since he was a huge liar who did much more evil than the Source ever did by setting the Charmed Ones off on a totally different track, away from their true destiny, even using a true innocent to put them on that track. It's the sad reality of Kernian Charmed, I agree. Although I do have more of a liking for an 'end-goal destiny’ Charmed than you do, I still think we could’ve done with more seasons like S2 (i.e. predominantly demon-of-the-week, no Big Bad, focus on protecting Innocents). This is what infuriated me so much about ‘Oh My Goddess’. There was no need to round-off S5 with a hasty, last-minute Big Bad which was purely designed to out-do the Source and Cole – resulting in another crappy dress-up episode which completely turned the mythology of the Charmedverse upside down (Gods, you say?). Without the fairytales, the nymphs, the leprechauns and Cole, S5 could’ve been a good sequel to S2. For me, I also do hark back to that word ‘culminate’ in Melinda’s original prophecy. Even if the Charmed Ones weren’t destined to vanquish the Source, but just protect the Innocent and generally be a force for Good, their powerful lineage would come to a natural end upon their deaths and their kids would be ordinary, yet competent, witches. |
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 1, 2015 11:15:47 GMT -5
The Charmed Ones were destined to become the most powerful witches ever and they did
No prophecy says that they had to destroy the power of the Source, the prophecies, that about the Charmed Ones as the one concerning Wyatt, speak only of power: who possesses the predestined power can accomplish marvelous deeds for the Good or,I steal the words to Obi Wan, falling under the influence of Evil or, simply, don't use it
It's no a duty, it's a choice and Destiny can only hope that they usee it for the Good
Angel of Destiny: You three have accomplished something that few others ever dream of. By vanquishing the Source of all evil, you have fulfilled your shared destiny, much earlier than anticipated. Truth be told, some of us did think you'd never achieve it at all
The sisters thought they'ld save the innocents without being watched by powerful and evil forces they know very few of the magic world
And when they were target by Tempus, Barbas, the Triad, the Source, when they lost Andy, and when Piper and Phoebe lost Prue, they changed, the Age of Innocence ended: it would be nice to live like in the beginning, they risked so much to save lives but then they'ld return to their home, to their life
The Source changed everything
Back to the topic
Sol reminded me that Penny often speaks amiss
In Warren lineage there were males and also siblings, the cousins of Pardon My Past were daughters of three siblings,as the three girls of Phoebe are always three normal sisters, not the new Charmed Ones
Maybe, every time in the family three girls were born, the parents wondered if they were finally the predestined sisters: as Deano said, as in the royal dinasty, the Charmed Ones were born and they were the peak of their dinasty
Wyatt, born in circumstance similar to those of the founder of the dynasty, is a new and different beginning, he is the son of the magic of an extraordinary night in which the Aurora Borealis shone on the night before the Wiccan Festival of Lights and Jupiter, Mars and Saturn were all in Gemini
Like her descendant, Melinda was born the night of Halloween in a magic circle, protected by the most powerful witches of all time and she too was a child prophesied and a powerful witch
At both ends of the Warren history, there are two children born in magical nights, Melinda opens and Wyatt closes the circle
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 12:30:54 GMT -5
The only problem I had with this episode was the discrepancies regarding Melinda Warren. And I'm not talking about her move to Salem, but the following:
1. Melinda's age: This episodes shows Melinda Warren being born in 1670, which would have made her 22 when she was executed in 1692. The problem is that the Melinda that appeared in The Witch Is Back seemed to be somewhat older than 22 (in fact, Tyler Layton, who played Melinda, was 30 at the time she appeared on Charmed). I think they should have moved the year of Melinda's birth back a few years.
2. Melinda's last name: In The Witch Is Back, Melinda refers to her daughter, Prudence. So I assumed that Warren was her married name, and that something had happened to her husband (dying young happened a lot in Colonial Times). However, in All Halliwell's Eve, we see that Warren is her family name. WTF?
And don't say that she kept her maiden name, that did NOT happen in those days. It was only in the last century, when women got more rights and began to enter the work force, that the practice of married women keeping their maiden names started.
So there are only two possibilities here.
The first if that Melinda married a man that had the same last name that she did (it has happened, for example, country singer Alan Jackson's wife, Denise, had the same last name he did before she married him).
The second is that Melinda had Prudence out of wedlock. An unmarried woman having a baby in those days!? Forget witchcraft, she would have been ostracized for that alone.
You want to know what the kicker is. The same writer, Sheryl Anderson, wrote both The Witch Is Back and All Halliwell's Eve! So I don't understand these errors. Did she forget what she had written before and prayed we would too. What the heck happened here?
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Post by sol on Dec 1, 2015 16:21:13 GMT -5
I was actually beginning to think that as I was reading your post, Erik. How funny! I am inclined to agree that Wyatt's birth, for all intents and purposes, brought an end to the Warren line. I like to think of these prophecies as similar to Medieval European royal houses – when one reaches its peak, it soon declines in importance and the next generation begins its own dynasty. When the Charmed Ones vanquished the Source their destiny was realised and the Warren dynasty was all but over. Wyatt and his siblings/cousins basically orginated the Halliwell dynasty – a powerful line of Witchlighters. Phoebe’s children are the only truth Warrens left, but would likely be relegated to ‘Lady’ status – distance heirs to the new Halliwell throne. I have to admit it - all of that makes a lot of sense, and probably exactly what Kern had in mind for his alternate-universe spin-off, in which case, I'll apologize to Erikamarie for saying I thought she was reaching. Me, I'll stick to the real Charmed (S1-3) where their destiny was *not* to defeat the Source but to protect innocents, and hence would continue way past the Halliwells with their daughters, because Piper would've had Melinda and Christina, not Wyatt and Chris, just without the Source, they and their cousins would not have to be as powerful as the Charmed Ones, so the prophecy would be true and the powers would indeed culminate with them, with their daughters being able to perform magic, but have no witch power. Only Piper's two daughters would have whitelighter ones (no Paige...) and be pacifists like Leo, not warriors like Kern's Charmed Ones. But you are right, their misson was to protect innocents, the Source imposed upon them dragging them to fight him If you think, like I do,that there are signs of other timelines, you'ld believe in a timeline where Leo saved Prue and Piper and..who knows? |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2015 18:44:32 GMT -5
I have to admit it - all of that makes a lot of sense, and probably exactly what Kern had in mind for his alternate-universe spin-off, in which case, I'll apologize to Erikamarie for saying I thought she was reaching. Me, I'll stick to the real Charmed (S1-3) where their destiny was *not* to defeat the Source but to protect innocents, and hence would continue way past the Halliwells with their daughters, because Piper would've had Melinda and Christina, not Wyatt and Chris, just without the Source, they and their cousins would not have to be as powerful as the Charmed Ones, so the prophecy would be true and the powers would indeed culminate with them, with their daughters being able to perform magic, but have no witch power. Only Piper's two daughters would have whitelighter ones (no Paige...) and be pacifists like Leo, not warriors like Kern's Charmed Ones. But you are right, their misson was to protect innocents, the Source imposed upon them dragging them to fight him If you think, like I do,that there are signs of other timelines, you'ld believe in a timeline where Leo saved Prue and Piper and..who knows? Oh, yes, that's what I definitely believe - that in Timeline Prime (the original and true Charmed timeline), Leo saved Prue and Piper, Paige doesn't exist, the sisters defeated the Source with no need to call on the Halliwell line - a Power of Three spell worked just fine - and because he was *truly* the Source of All Evil, there were no longer any demons to bother humans, so they went back to their original destiny of protecting innocents. Since when they vanquished the Source, *all* demons were vanquished, so Belthazor was, leaving Cole as just the lawyer who Phoebe loved. Even though they didn't live sappily ever after, they did live without having to spend their lives protecting the Twice Blessed Brat or constantly battling demons. Now warlocks...that's another story... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 18:55:29 GMT -5
Oh, yes, that's what I definitely believe - that in Timeline Prime (the original and true Charmed timeline), Leo saved Prue and Piper, Paige doesn't exist, the sisters defeated the Source with no need to call on the Halliwell line - a Power of Three spell worked just fine - and because he was *truly* the Source of All Evil, there were no longer any demons to bother humans, so they went back to their original destiny of protecting innocents. Since when they vanquished the Source, *all* demons were vanquished, so Belthazor was, leaving Cole as just the lawyer who Phoebe loved. Even though they didn't live sappily ever after, they did live without having to spend their lives protecting the Twice Blessed Brat or constantly battling demons. Now warlocks...that's another story... Perhaps when Tempus rewound time he messed up and caused a tear in Timeline Prime and Paige slipped through from another timeline/universe  But seriously, this just goes to show how much S4-8 is not 'Charmed' but some weird alternate timeline. So the Source would be the "Queen Bee" so to speak? That's interesting. Then the sisters could go back to protecting the Innocent from warlocks. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2015 23:21:48 GMT -5
Oh, yes, that's what I definitely believe - that in Timeline Prime (the original and true Charmed timeline), Leo saved Prue and Piper, Paige doesn't exist, the sisters defeated the Source with no need to call on the Halliwell line - a Power of Three spell worked just fine - and because he was *truly* the Source of All Evil, there were no longer any demons to bother humans, so they went back to their original destiny of protecting innocents. Since when they vanquished the Source, *all* demons were vanquished, so Belthazor was, that left Cole as just the lawyer who Phoebe loved. Even though the Halliwells didn't live sappily ever after, they did live without having to spend their lives protecting the Twice Blessed Brat or constantly battling demons. Now warlocks...that's another story... Perhaps when Tempus rewound time he messed up and caused a tear in Timeline Prime and Paige slipped through from another timeline/universe But seriously, this just goes to show how much S4-8 is not 'Charmed' but some weird alternate timeline. So the Source would be the "Queen Bee" so to speak? That's interesting. Then the sisters could go back to protecting the Innocent from warlocks. Hey, if she could slip into Cole's alternate reality, why couldn't she have done it at that time? And as shown in S1-2, not just warlocks, but, yes, they'd be back to being the main villains. The Charmed Ones' main destiny remains protecting those who are Innocent of the existence of magic from finding out about it...that - exposing magic - remains the main evil, and after what happened during "All Hell Breaks Loose", they'd be careful not to do that. And Es, being Es, as much as she loves that episode, would have them find out that the "Morality Bites" timeline was truly a fake one set up by the Elders to teach a lesson because dead men can not sire children. That would keep Timeline Prime pure - make being part of the female Warren line the most important thing, not having a whitelighter for a father - Melinda only exists in some fake timeline - and Piper has a much happier lifetime, even if she still finds stuff to whine about - she wouldn't be Piper if she didn't. |
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 2, 2015 4:17:42 GMT -5
But you are right, their misson was to protect innocents, the Source imposed upon them dragging them to fight him If you think, like I do,that there are signs of other timelines, you'ld believe in a timeline where Leo saved Prue and Piper and..who knows? Oh, yes, that's what I definitely believe - that in Timeline Prime (the original and true Charmed timeline), Leo saved Prue and Piper, Paige doesn't exist, the sisters defeated the Source with no need to call on the Halliwell line - a Power of Three spell worked just fine - and because he was *truly* the Source of All Evil, there were no longer any demons to bother humans, so they went back to their original destiny of protecting innocents. Since when they vanquished the Source, *all* demons were vanquished, so Belthazor was, leaving Cole as just the lawyer who Phoebe loved. Even though they didn't live sappily ever after, they did live without having to spend their lives protecting the Twice Blessed Brat or constantly battling demons. Now warlocks...that's another story... As I often said, the sisters loved to protect inoocents and, of course (unless one has little brain as Billie) hated to fight demons as it was a sport After all, this is why they refuse Angel of Destiny's gift, they love being witches as it was at the beginning, people may like to help the others, this could not have to mean that they have to tie themselves to a warrior nature This is the reason I love so much this episode: just magic, nothing powers In this story,the solidarity between women is strength, the wisdom inherited from nature is power, the magic comes from knowledge and their determination to help The powers of the child who is born in the magic circle before midnight make her stronger than each of the three sisters, as the child born on the night of the three magic signs is mightier than his mother and his aunts, because magic is a gift of nature and cosmic forces But both Melinda and Wyatt never could be powerful as the Power of Three, the power of a bond between sisters,in the past this power doesn't exist yet, but their bond does and it arises when they create the magic circle: Piper helps the birth, Prue protects and Phobe, the sister without active powers,flys to attack laughing |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 2, 2015 8:35:30 GMT -5
But both Melinda and Wyatt never could be powerful as the Power of Three, the power of a bond between sisters,in the past this power doesn't exist yet, but their bond does and it arises when they create the magic circle: Piper helps the birth, Prue protects and Phoebe, the sister without active powers, flies to attack laughing Great job! Nailed it! It's why it's one of my Top Ten episodes, too, the only episode I watch every year - every Halloween - just like "It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown" and "Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein", it's not Halloween unless I watch them. Naturally - it was written by Sheryl J. Anderson - her version of the sisters are my absolute favorites even if a couple of the episodes (Wrestling with the Demons, anyone?), isn't.. If only she had written all of them, especially the season premieres and the season finales... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 10:05:04 GMT -5
But both Melinda and Wyatt never could be powerful as the Power of Three, the power of a bond between sisters,in the past this power doesn't exist yet, but their bond does and it arises when they create the magic circle: Piper helps the birth, Prue protects and Phoebe, the sister without active powers, flies to attack laughing Great job! Nailed it! It's why it's one of my Top Ten episodes, too, the only episode I watch every year - every Halloween - just like "It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown" and "Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein", it's not Halloween unless I watch them. Naturally - it was written by Sheryl J. Anderson - her version of the sisters are my absolute favorites even if a couple of the episodes (Wrestling with the Demons, anyone?), isn't.. If only she had written all of them, especially the season premieres and the season finales... Indeed, Sheryl was easily one of the best Charmed writers, if not the best! I also liked Zack Estrin & Chris Levinson. It was so sad that these writers were phased out in favour of idiots like Curtis Wheel (aka Walt Disney). For as much as people go on and Connie, I think some of these writers understood the show's concept better than her. |
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Dec 2, 2015 13:53:43 GMT -5
Exactly. Soon as season 5 came about and they changed the writers then aired the episodes later you knew the quality was never goanna be the same again.
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 3, 2015 12:45:12 GMT -5
I don’t see many contrasts
You are right saying that Melinda shows more than 22 years but in the seventeenth century women and men grow old quickly, especially if they lived in rural communities: no moisturizers, no protection from the sun, nothing fluor and vitamin D in the early years of age .. .. I believe that when they were aware of that when they choose the actress for Melinda’s role
Choice that I liked, she had the right maternal appearance of an ancestor despite being young and pretty
Melinda last name: I hope not to bore you but I have to make a short history of surnames
In the Anglo-Saxon and northern Europe society in general the woman takes her husband's name ipso facto only from the Reastauration age
In my Swiss Canton, wife and husband had to have the same last name and they can choose which of the man and woman surname: my maternal grandfather, born Zimmerscholt, chose the simplest Klaisen of his wife, so my mom and my uncles are Klaisen, then the law changed and my parents held their last names
In Italy, instead, women have never, in any age, took her husband's surname, from the Roman Empire onwards
If you are following that ugly series on Borgia - full of historicist mistakes- you’ll see that Lucrezia never takes the surname of her husbands: she is Lucrezia Borgia Countess of Pesaro, not Lucrezia Sforza Countess of Pesaro, Lucrezia Borgia Duchess of Ferrara, not Lucrezia d'Este Duchess of Ferrara
Or the Duchess of Milan, platonically beloved by Leonardo da Vinci,she is always Beatrice D'Este, Duchess of Milan, not Beatrice Sforza
In France only among the nobility the woman took her husband's surname,for dynastic reasons
The bourgeoisie didn’t care, especially the women working in corporations, ad example the surname Boucher indicated the membership of the mighty Guild of Butchers, Lefèvre to that of blacksmiths
In 1600, in America there was probably a mixed regime, some women were taking their husband's name, others not, only towards the end of 1700 it will become an obligation
In addition, sexual mores in Europe in XXVII and XXVII century were very free, the French Revolution branded them as libertines and undertook a moralizing work
This long digression is to show that Anderson, if she has a minimum of historical studies, is not wrong: Melinda could have chosen to retain her last name even if she had a husband
And if Melinda wasn't married, maybe she lived in one or those comunity which didn't belong to the Puritan community and had morals less rigid
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 12:57:35 GMT -5
You've got in backwards here. I had no problem with the actress in The Witch Is Back. Nowhere in that episode is Melinda's age even mentioned. So the fault is with All Halliwell's Eve, not The Witch Is Back.
As for those examples of women you cited, they were Royalty and/or Nobility. The rules of society that most followed did not apply to them.
However, Melinda was not either, she was just another commoner. And common women in those days took their husbands last name in marriage. In the 20th Century, when women began to enter the work force, the practice of keeping the maiden name became common. A lot of times it was for professional and business reasons, for example some female news anchors work under their maiden names because that's the name they're the most well known as.
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 3, 2015 13:10:01 GMT -5
Sorry maybe I wasn't clear
Till the second half of XXVIII century, common women didn't use their husband last name in the Anglo-Saxon countries, in the Mediterranean countries never, in any age, common women have taken her husband's name unless it was their decision
Trust me, my sister in law teaches women's history at the University of Zurich
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 4, 2015 1:13:32 GMT -5
Do you have your Roman numerals right? XXVIII would be the twenty-eighth century (X=10, V=5, and I=1 so 10+10+5+1+1+1=28., and we're only up to the 21st (XXI) or if you want to use the whole number, it's year MMXV (M=1000, so 1000+1000+10+5=2015). I think you mean XVIII, which would be the 18th century. Easier not to use Roman numerals.
But all of that information is extremely interesting. Thanks to you and your sister for sharing.
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