rebooted
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Post by rebooted on Jul 6, 2017 4:21:04 GMT -5
1) So Did Paige actually die in 5x21? (Didn't Chris say that he borrows money of her in the future?)
2) Did the Power of Three die on this day?
3) Did the Titans shift the balance of power from good to evil when TCO's were vanquished.
4) We're Piper and Phoebe still made God's to defeat the Titans (remember Piper really did it all herself in the end)
5) Did Leo still become an Elder, regardless of Chris's interference? and leave Piper instead of going to Valhalla and coming back because he was suspicious of Chris?
6) Leo must of come back and reconciled with Piper to conceive Chris. Why was this? Or see Number 9.
7) In the original timeline did Chris come back? This one is confusing.
8) Was it actually a waste of time for Chris to come back to the present?
9) Was Leo made an Elder after Paige died and after Chris was born
10) When the tour guide in Chris Crossed says that the Charmed Ones were finally vanquished... Is this just Piper and Phoebe (if Paige is dead). How were they killed?
11) Chris and Wyatt obviously went to Victor. Did Dumain or an imaginary friend get the Wyatt after this?
12) Was Chris actually more powerful than Wyatt because he was half Elder half Eldest living Charmed One vs. Wyatt who was the first born Whitelighter/Charmed One?
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Post by Chrisaholic on Jul 6, 2017 10:05:42 GMT -5
Many questions which I'd like to answer - with more time but I'll do my best ASAP. Hopefully.  Hope you can live with that at first. Sorry. |
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Post by erikamarie on Jul 6, 2017 12:55:50 GMT -5
1) So Did Paige actually die in 5x21? (Didn't Chris say that he borrows money of her in the future?) 2) Did the Power of Three die on this day? 3) Did the Titans shift the balance of power from good to evil when TCO's were vanquished. 4) We're Piper and Phoebe still made God's to defeat the Titans (remember Piper really did it all herself in the end) 5) Did Leo still become an Elder, regardless of Chris's interference? and leave Piper instead of going to Valhalla and coming back because he was suspicious of Chris? 6) Leo must of come back and reconciled with Piper to conceive Chris. Why was this? Or see Number 9. 7) In the original timeline did Chris come back? This one is confusing. 8) Was it actually a waste of time for Chris to come back to the present? 9) Was Leo made an Elder after Paige died and after Chris was born 10) When the tour guide in Chris Crossed says that the Charmed Ones were finally vanquished... Is this just Piper and Phoebe (if Paige is dead). How were they killed? 11) Chris and Wyatt obviously went to Victor. Did Dumain or an imaginary friend get the Wyatt after this? 12) Was Chris actually more powerful than Wyatt because he was half Elder half Eldest living Charmed One vs. Wyatt who was the first born Whitelighter/Charmed One? I can say what I gathered 1- Paige never died, it was a Chris's lie When he orbed near Phoebe, Phoebe was on the brink of tossing her vials, Chris did only what evidently she'ld do In addition His cover story was Titans story And Bianca didn't tell "keep Paige alive" but them, she was talking of the Charmed Ones 2- Paige didn't die, so the Power of Three didn't die In Chris Crossed, the tour guide was talking about the Charmed Ones, not about Piper and Phoebe Halliwell 3- I belive that Chris took credit doing what Leo did Surgical strike is the key word: if he was afraid to change too much the future, soo afraid that he allowed that some Elders were killed in order to not change the future, it's impossible he did something different as to turn the sisters into Goddesses and Leo into an Elder 4/5 - if you think that Chris lied and only took credit for what Leo and the sisters did, all the Titans affair happened in the same way Leo decided to use the Goddesses power, saved the day and was rewarded by the surviving Elders joining them 6-In the original future Leo became an Elder and, without Chris in the way, lived with the Elders 7- Chris came back from the original timeline and gave rise to a different timeline 8- Maybe he risked to make the situation worse In the original future, Leo and the sisters never discovered who kidnapped Wyatt They undervalued the baby's trauma because they never knew it was a friend that kidnapped and tried to kill Wyatt If they knew, also Chris'ld know it But not knowing about his teacher and friend's betrayal, Leo never went crazy or conspired with the Avatars More likely, Leo became too much protective with Wyatt 9-No Leo became an Elder during Titans crisis 10- The tour guide talked of the Chamred Ones, Piper, Phoebe and Paige, she said thay they were killed together, not Paige before and then Piper and Phoebe How were they killed? I'll bet on Christy and Billie 11- When Piper died, Wyatt was sixteen, too old for an imaginary friend 12- Wyatt's huge power came from the magic day in which he was born Elders powers aren't genetic, their power pass through an Elder to another, so Chris inherited orbing whitelighter power from Leo, nothing more And I think Leo was an Elder in both timeline Half Elder make no sense ad half witch or half whitelighter |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 6, 2017 17:58:07 GMT -5
Very good job with this, Erikamarie. If I trusted a word Chris said, I'd agree that it's highly likely what happened.
Besides not trusting a word he said about the future, the point is that IF he was truly going to make a "surgical strike" he would've gotten in, changed what he wanted to change and get out. He didn't. He stayed for over a year, long enough to be conceived and born. Maybe Bianca wanted him to perform a surgical strike and save the sisters, but I still don't think Chris did. I think he was jealous of his father and wanted to get rid of him. Hence why he sent him to Valhalla, thinking Leo would be killed there, also thinking that his mother was already pregnant with him - but she wasn't. Hence why he had to stick around or negate his own existence. Bianca might have wanted to save the sisters by saving Wyatt, but Chris didn't until somewhere along the line he must've changed his mind or he wouldn't have tried to save him at the end. I don't think that was ever his his plan.
So keeping all of that in mind, here would be my responses.
And now you have a choice between Erikamarie's ideas or mine. Both are equally accurate based on what we saw. It just all depends upon if you believe Chris or not.
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Post by sol on Jul 7, 2017 2:40:32 GMT -5
Ok Es, I think we agree that Chis said a lot of lies But I see that you and Erikamarie are sure that all the Titans story happened in the same way in both timelines, and I agree because similar reason Chris had a cover story - a Bianca's cover story. the real mind of the operation - it's clear that the Titans attack was the story If Chris wanted to avoid Titans attack, Chris'ld come back before the Titans were released, saving all the Elders. But he wanted to change nothing, or Leo'ld not become an Elder, so he picked up the right moment to appear as a saviour, acting as he knew Phoebe had acted I know that Es doesn't buy what Chris says, I believe in the tour guide and she was clear:the Charmed Ones have vanquished 1,0000 demons - not saved 1000 innocents? Peolpe prefer them as warriors?- so it'ls be true that they died when Wyatt and Chris were teens They, because Paige was alive I'm sure that Leo became an Elder and I think he came back for Wyatt's first birthday, even an Elder can't miss his son birthday And Gideon was worried that Leo might feel nostalgia of his family I'm also sure that was Gideon to kidnapp Wyatt, he have tried to erase him using the Cleaners - I don't know if erase or if he wanted to bring up the child - he was worried because all that power wasn't expected by the Elders - only ambiguous angels of Destiny knew it Wyatt'ld no be born in the magic day, he'ld have been born two months later, maybe Phoebe and Cole 'son was destined to the magic day Wyatt is more powerfull than his mom and aunts individually but not than the Power of Three: Phoebe asserts that only the Power of Three can block his powers, so the Power of Three overwhelms those of Wyatt I can't believe in time loop, I think that, as the modern physicist believed, a big change opens a new timeline - the multiverse theory: when Chris disappeared, he came back in his timeline, where a very angry Wyatt was waiting for him  I agree with Erikamarie, Chris cannot know but he risked a great disaster because the true about Wyatt kidnapping devasted Leo and increased the mistrust of the sisters versus the Elders, leaving enough space for the Avatars But Wyatt was really evil? If he was hopelessly turned into a warlock, Leo'ld not be able to stop him only with his love! |
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Post by magena on Jul 7, 2017 12:48:27 GMT -5
Very intresting debate!
The simplest explanation is always the best so I also think that the whole story of the Titan's victory and Paige's death was a tall story, useful to score points with the Elders and become the sisters whitelighter
I'ld crave to understand what happened in Chris future, we saw ruins but also smiling people happy to visit the Manor!
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rebooted
Witch
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Post by rebooted on Jul 7, 2017 18:24:37 GMT -5
SO let me get this straight
Bianca was the real mastermind behind Chris coming back at the moment the Titans attacked Paige. Paige was freed by the magical creatures and never died like Chris said.
Chris took the credit in being the hero in the moment and what was supposed to happen with the Titan's obtaining whitelighter powers was known by Chris, and he let it happen because he didn't want to change that part of the future?
So Leo did turn into an Elder in 5x22-23 and the Charmed Ones were made Gods to destroy the Titans and they were never killed.
Leo never went to Valhalla in the original timeline, he just went on to become an Elder and had no reason to come back to be be suspicious of Chris.
Later on, Wyatt went to Magic School and Gideon tried to kill him through different attempts which is why Leo came back to and Piper and Leo must of reconnected and conceived Chris.
Leo killed Gideon? eventually down the track or did the Charmed Ones find out about him when Wyatt was 14 and they died in a battle trying to protect him?
Wyatt was already influenced and traumatized by the events and started to become evil and other demonic attacks on him/or to change him continued.
Did Leo stay up there after Chris was born as he was 'never there for Chris, but always there for Wyatt'?
It would be interesting to understand whether the 'Charmed One's were vanquished' refers to only Piper being vanquished as she is the only one we know dies which breaks the Power of Three. Or is is all three of them that die. Do you think that this is Zankou later on or Bille and Christie/Triad or was it Gideon.
Piper puts Victor in her will as the carer for Wyatt and Chris and Leo accepts this and moves on and continues to be an Elder. Victor wants them to be raised as normal boys but not forgetting their magic for protection. An imaginary friend and/or dumain gets to Wyatt and builds on the corruption throughout his childhood.
At this point, I am thinking that all three sisters are dead, otherwise the boys wouldn't be raised by Victor.
Did I just confuse myself. Am I completely wrong?
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Post by sol on Jul 10, 2017 1:59:39 GMT -5
More or less I think that Chris never tried to interfere with what had happened in his past
He was searching for a demon because Leo and the sisters never knew who kidnapped Wyatt
As I wrote, he'ld stop the Titans attack going back before they were able to broke the ice and warning Leo, the Elders, the sisters, but he didn't he showed of during the attack doing what Phoebe was perfecty able to do alone
If he wanted to save Paige, why he didn't appear 2 minutes before? Because he was afraid to do something that would change his past
Leo and the sisters never knew what happened or Chris'ld know it was Gideon, instead he was vanquishing demon after demon, hoping to find the right one
So Chris 's past was very different, because Leo never killed an Elder, never lost a son, never went crazy, never became an Avatar
The timeline changed when Leo and the sisters knew about Gideon, this was the real turning point , their future was influenced by Chris death and Gideon betrayal, they lost trust in the Elders, Leo called into question all Elders's mission
The tour guide talked of the Charmed Ones's death and, seeing that they'ld be very very powerful, I think it'ld be happen only by a betrayal, so I'ld bet on the Jenkis
I think that Victor raised the boys in full compliance with their destiny as witches, with Leo as supervisor
Leo was worrried about Wyatt because of his trauma and was more vigilant, Chris sufered for it
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 10, 2017 3:10:46 GMT -5
I forgot the biggest difference between what most fans think happened and what I think happened, based on what we were shown onscreen.
Because I believe that Vicus was behind Wyatt's turning, not Gideon (since Wyatt still turned evil in Season Seven even after Gideon was gone-and mainly turned evil because Chris talked Leo into turning the sisters into goddesses which turned him into an Elder so Leo wasn't around to save Wyatt from Vicus!), I don't believe that Wyatt was ever kidnapped. What Leo saw was not real. That was a delusion caused by Barbas, who knew what Leo's biggest fear was.
You can see how that affected most of my answers to Rebooted's questions.
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Jul 10, 2017 19:05:03 GMT -5
Very good job with this, Erikamarie. If I trusted a word Chris said, I'd agree that it's highly likely what happened. Besides not trusting a word he said about the future, the point is that IF he was truly going to make a "surgical strike" he would've gotten in, changed what he wanted to change and get out. He didn't. He stayed for over a year, long enough to be conceived and born. Maybe Bianca wanted him to perform a surgical strike and save the sisters, but I still don't think Chris did. I think he was jealous of his father and wanted to get rid of him. Hence why he sent him to Valhalla, thinking Leo would be killed there, also thinking that his mother was already pregnant with him - but she wasn't. Hence why he had to stick around or negate his own existence. Bianca might have wanted to save the sisters by saving Wyatt, but Chris didn't until somewhere along the line he must've changed his mind or he wouldn't have tried to save him at the end. I don't think that was ever his his plan. So keeping all of that in mind, here would be my responses. And now you have a choice between Erikamarie's ideas or mine. Both are equally accurate based on what we saw. It just all depends upon if you believe Chris or not. In number 8 if Leo could turn Wyatt back to being on the side of good why was he ever evil in the timeline Chris came from? |
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Post by sol on Jul 11, 2017 1:01:08 GMT -5
Because these are 2 different timeline
The timeline from which Chris came changed in the momento Leo discovered Gdeon betrayal
if you think, all season 7 is linked to the effect created by the events that led to Chris's death and Wyatt's kidnapping
In the original timeline, Chris never came, Leo and the sisters never knew about who kidnapped Wyatt, they maybe become overprotective with the child but no full of rancor and distrust against the Elders, giving room to the Avatars
And because I ponder about Es' opinions, I think that Gideon destoyed every kind of confidenca in Wyatt and for this reason Vicus was able to affect him
In the original timeline, Leo remained an Elder so the father-son linked faded away and no one can stop Wyatt, after Piper's death
In the new timeline, Leo's suffering for Chris death and Gideon betrayal triggered the succession of events that will lead Leo to renounce his Elder status, to become a great dad, with a strong influence on his problematic son
By acting critically, Chris returned to his family the father of whom his so special children needed, saving Wyatt
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 11, 2017 6:25:52 GMT -5
Very good job with this, Erikamarie. If I trusted a word Chris said, I'd agree that it's highly likely what happened. Besides not trusting a word he said about the future, the point is that IF he was truly going to make a "surgical strike" he would've gotten in, changed what he wanted to change and get out. He didn't. He stayed for over a year, long enough to be conceived and born. Maybe Bianca wanted him to perform a surgical strike and save the sisters, but I still don't think Chris did. I think he was jealous of his father and wanted to get rid of him. Hence why he sent him to Valhalla, thinking Leo would be killed there, also thinking that his mother was already pregnant with him - but she wasn't. Hence why he had to stick around or negate his own existence. Bianca might have wanted to save the sisters by saving Wyatt, but Chris didn't until somewhere along the line he must've changed his mind or he wouldn't have tried to save him at the end. I don't think that was ever his his plan. So keeping all of that in mind, here would be my responses. And now you have a choice between Erikamarie's ideas or mine. Both are equally accurate based on what we saw. It just all depends upon if you believe Chris or not. In number 8 if Leo could turn Wyatt back to being on the side of good why was he ever evil in the timeline Chris came from? Because in the original universe, Evil Wyatt would not have come back since he didn't exist yet, so Vicus, through the teddy bear, was able to turn Wyatt without anyone knowing. |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 12, 2017 5:07:32 GMT -5
Like I keep saying, I'm one of the few fans who can admit when she's wrong, and re-reading this thread, I found out that I was wrong about #8. Chris coming back wasn't a pure waste of time and effort. Had Chris not come back, he wouldn't have started the time loop which allowed Evil Wyatt to come back so Leo could save Little Wyatt from Vicus, which is what got them out of the eternal time loop that that version of Chris (aka Chris #1, the half-whitelighter one) is still on and will be on forever, while Baby Chris (aka Chris #2 - the half-Elder one) will also continue to live in the timeline that Chris #1 helped create.
In case you wonder, the Chris Leo saw in 'Someone to Witch Over Me' was just a fantasy, just like seeing Wyatt in the underworld, although Chris was just a dream, not an illusion caused by Barbas. The Chris who Wyatt talks about in 'Imaginary Fiends' is Chris #2, the half-Elder one. Chris #1, the half-whitelighter one, never swallowed the marble.
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Post by magena on Jul 12, 2017 10:00:27 GMT -5
I agree that in Someone to Witch Over Me Chris was only a part of Leo dreamù
I'm exited about all these idea
I prefer multiverse timeline because I can't stand time loop paradox, indeed, Chris vanished becuase he'ld never belong to the new timeline arised by the new events
In the original timeline Leo and the Charmed Ones didn't know the true about Wyatta kidnapping - he was too young to be able to speak - and didn't get a shock with Chris death
I believe that Chris didn't change the future because of what he did, in any case Wyatt was kidnapped and traumatized and Vicus was able to gain his trust
Chris changed the timeline becuase he died, in some way provoked Leo's choise to turn human again to be a father so he'ld stop Vicus
I though we agreeded that Chris was a witch with a whitelighter power, not half whitelighter or half Elder!
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Jul 12, 2017 15:39:13 GMT -5
I just don't get how Wyatt could be kidnapped and the Charmed Ones wouldn't find out about it and find a way to stop it in a matter of hours.
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Post by gzv969 on Jul 12, 2017 19:18:20 GMT -5
Really interesting debate...
Chris already knew about the titans and how the charmed ones defeated them. He just showed up in hopes that if he just suggested already know facts before they happened to the sisters he could gain their trust to be their white-lighter. Leo was already on track to become an elder. Chris just thought that hiding him in Valhalla wouldn't change the timeline because since Leo hardly never was around after becoming an elder in his original past it would be the same. Except Chris never anticipated Leo escaping early and suspecting him of putting him there. That particular incident changed a lot of the timeline and ended up braking up Leo and Piper putting his future in jeopardy. From then everything started to change and chris even worried what timeline he was going to returning to. but Chris's actions also was what lead to keeping wyatt from turning evil. Ill explain...
As far as what turned Wyatt evil in Chris's original future. I believe it was a combination of a number of the instances below. The main reason being that in Chris's original past Leo wasn't around and probably wasn't involved in most of the instances where Wyatt was attacked, becoming an Elder and all. but due to how Chris put Leo in Valhalla and Leo escaping early, Leo was around way more than he was in Chris's original past.
1) The Order's attempt on Wyatt in "Prince Charmed". The Order reversing or trying to reverse Wyatt's morality causing Wyatt not to not know anymore what's good or bad. After the traumatic incident on Wyatt, Leo probably returned later to console Piper, and probably against her wishes, and he probably started sticking around more. Which was against Gideon's wishes. After that Chris was conceived. It was 4 episodes later that we had the "Courtship of Wyatt's Farther" when the darklighter went after Leo who was hanging around way too much. An Elder in plain sight attracting attention.
2) Gideon's actions: Gideon trying to kill Wyatt ended up creating further hurt and anger in Wyatt that caused him to blame himself for Leo not being around and leaving. My thought was in Chris's original past it could have been baby wyatt that might have performed the great evil by killing Gideon that restored the balance of Good and Evil and not Leo. Further traumatizing him and pushing him towards evil.
3) And then the demon Vicus finally pushing him over the edge to evil with the teddy bear in "Imaginary Friends"
When Chris went poof!! in "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World" Everything may have still not changed. The only thing that really changed Chris future for the better was Leo being around more and ending up being able to convince Wyatt that him leaving wasn't his fault "Cheaper by the coven" and talking Evil Wyatt out of being evil "Imaginary Friends". In Chris's original past Leo probably wouldn't have been around for these events. Piper and the sisters probably took on all these themselves.
As far as Bianca coming back for Chris, it's only because she had to prove to Evil Wyatt that she had turned and would do his bidding. Show Evil Wyatt she was now evil. Bianca still loved Chris but had to do what Evil Wyatt wanted which was to bring Chris back. She had to be hard on Chris and the sisters and not give Wyatt any cause to think she was still good. All was to prevent Evil wyatt from killing chris.
When Bianca had her knife on Pipers neck she mentioned to Paige that if she moved on her then Paige would "really have to know if the Power of Two would do". She said she got it from the history books. Probably referring to Piper dying early and Paige and Phoebe having to fend for themselves. And without the power of three anymore they both probably ended up being vanquished in Chris's original future. Chris told victor it was when he was 14 that piper died. The only way piper would have died early would have to be at the hand of someone close to her and not by any other demon. Since the power of 3 was still there. May have been at the hand of Wyatt "unwillingly" or "accidentally" in Pipers attempt to change Wyatt back, keep him from taking the BOS as he claimed it was his inheritance or while protecting Chris from Wyatt's corruption. Just watch how she was already attacking and blasting Evil Wyatt in "Imaginary Friends" while trying to stop him from corrupting baby Wyatt. Wyatt would have been like 16 then. He wouldn't willingly attack piper but if piper came at him in Chris's future the way she did in this episode, getting in his way, any accident could have happened. Wyatt did say to Leo. "I don't want to hurt you but if you get in my way...." And same when he convinced himself he no longer needed Chris after Chris betrayed him in "Chris Crossed" and he attempted to vanquish him but Bianca stepped in and took the energy ball.
This is all speculation and my take on what Chris's original future may have been assuming he told the truth about everything.
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Post by magena on Jul 13, 2017 5:53:49 GMT -5
If Leo didn't discover the true, all that too evil/too good world cannot exist, Gideon had only to kidnapp Wyatt, he hadn't Leo and Cjhris in the way
I think Wyatt was able to slip away and Leo found him lost in the Underworld
Good point, it'ld explain what Bianca meant!
If Wyatt was in some way culpable of Piper's death, Chris' behavior'ld be very different
I prefer think that Christy worked out well, if the Angel of Destiny had not been forced to tell the truth, the sisters'ld never have suspected anybody
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 13, 2017 7:56:37 GMT -5
Still think the way I'm thinking it makes more sense from what we saw on the series than what you guys are speculating, but definitely find it all interesting.
But I will keep insisting that Gideon never kidnapped Wyatt! That was Barbas' illusion of Leo's greatest fear.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Jul 13, 2017 9:53:05 GMT -5
Okay, maybe Chris came prepared back to the past but who could have told him what had happened before he was born? I bet there could have not been many people left in the future, like Victor and Leo and we know Chris had a crumbled relationship with his Dad, with that only Victor is left as a source.
As we've got only hints and glimpses of Chris' old future, we can only speculate here but there's no guarantee that this might be the only truth. We have no information here and we should leave it this way.
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Post by magena on Jul 17, 2017 5:27:28 GMT -5
Bianca spoke of books of story, if the Charmed Ones were famous, their story'ld be well known
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Hope you can live with that at first. Sorry. 
