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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 12, 2018 22:12:47 GMT -5
Yes. It made it far too easy for them to solve problems. It stopped feeling like three normal women having to deal with magic, and changed to three magical women dealing with magic, which took away a lot of the real-world appeal that the first few seasons had: having to drive places, arguing over the car and their schedules, rushing to not be late for work, etc. Things that make them human. It's the same thing with Piper having the power to explode just about anything by herself. It would be like if Prue's telekinesis had always been able to vanquish demons and warlocks, and Piper and Phoebe were just there on the sides. It's such an imbalance. And about Leo: them seeing a possible future in Morality Bites really, really messed some things up. It was especially unfair that Piper saw she and Leo had a daughter. Even though Piper was from a time long before that girl was born, what kind of person could see that and not feel love and attachment to their possible future kid? I think Piper would have risked everything to get that little girl, even knowing that a possible divorce from Leo and a potential dangerous future for witches were possible. I think it would have gone against Piper's innermost instincts to choose not to try to have that kid, as it would for many people. If they hadn't had kids in the future, and Piper just saw that they were divorced, I think she might have chosen Dan instead, or at least not chosen Leo. But seeing Melinda made it feel to Piper like she'd otherwise be abandoning her child, which shouldn't be that way because Melinda was no more real than anything else they saw. She was just one of the many possibilities of the future. And I agree that Leo was just meant to be a whitelighter. He even chose to get his powers back himself in Murphy's Luck. He said himself that the cost was too high if he couldn't do his job and protect those he cared about. It made no sense that they kept forcing their relationship to work when Leo valued his work more than his relationship with Piper, as we saw again when he agreed to be an Elder. I keep saying it. Although 'Morality Bites' will always be my favorite episode, I often wish it had never aired for how it ruined Piper. But as you suggested, if they'd left Melinda out the way they should've left kids out until the last episode when one of the sisters announces she's pregnant, then they could've kept it while letting it still remain my favorite episode. I would've preferred seeing Prue as a photographer in *this* episode and Piper as the one who owns a bunch of restaurants. It would've set them up for what happens later much better. Speaking of Prue, I always wonder if had Leo left in 'Love Hurts' as was previously planned, would Prue and Andy been the divorced couple in 'Morality Bites' and how would that have worked out. It would have been fantastic to see a future that early in the second season where Prue is a photographer and Piper is a highly successful restaurant owner. Not only would it have at least set up Prue's passion for photography, but at that point in the show it would have been an absolutely shock to the viewers, even more so than Prue owning and expanding Buckland's. After all, at that point in the show Prue was established as an ambitious career woman with a stable job, and Piper hadn't owned her own business or demonstrated the aggression beneficial to being successful in as risky a business as restaurant ownership. It would've been fascinating to have seen that and then throughout the series getting to see how that developed. Honestly, Prue has had so much hardship concerning familial relationships that I'd hope–in this AU version of Morality Bites–that she wouldn't have to also go through divorce. |
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Feb 13, 2018 3:12:44 GMT -5
I keep saying it. Although 'Morality Bites' will always be my favorite episode, I often wish it had never aired for how it ruined Piper. But as you suggested, if they'd left Melinda out the way they should've left kids out until the last episode when one of the sisters announces she's pregnant, then they could've kept it while letting it still remain my favorite episode. I would've preferred seeing Prue as a photographer in *this* episode and Piper as the one who owns a bunch of restaurants. It would've set them up for what happens later much better. Speaking of Prue, I always wonder if had Leo left in 'Love Hurts' as was previously planned, would Prue and Andy been the divorced couple in 'Morality Bites' and how would that have worked out. It would have been fantastic to see a future that early in the second season where Prue is a photographer and Piper is a highly successful restaurant owner. Not only would it have at least set up Prue's passion for photography, but at that point in the show it would have been an absolutely shock to the viewers, even more so than Prue owning and expanding Buckland's. After all, at that point in the show Prue was established as an ambitious career woman with a stable job, and Piper hadn't owned her own business or demonstrated the aggression beneficial to being successful in as risky a business as restaurant ownership. It would've been fascinating to have seen that and then throughout the series getting to see how that developed. Honestly, Prue has had so much hardship concerning familial relationships that I'd hope–in this AU version of Morality Bites–that she wouldn't have to also go through divorce. If only, that might have been much better to see play out. I know some members of this site have had fun coming up with ideas for this in fanfics. I think Prue and Andy would be divorced, but I like the idea of them having a child much more than Piper and Leo. Prue's stories in Season 1 and 2 did show many times dealing with her being a mother. It just didn't feel right for it to be Piper, but obviously, the ideas or brainstorming they had in mind for Morality Bites was just changed to Piper and Leo when they knew Andy was getting killed off. But I am wondering how Prue would go moving forward having gone through an AU version of Morality Bites with having a daughter and being married to Andy or someone else in the future. If Piper had been the Prue in this future and the businesswoman running a business and seen how she turned out, this might have been a better direction for her character, and she may not have turned into what she became. Thinking about it, she probably would still turn into the whinny version she was in S5-8 anyway if Holly had input as a producer and Brad Kern wrote the sisters as parodies of themselves. But I like this idea of Morality Bites much better. With Prue and Piper's roles switched, because it made sense with what Piper was doing in the present with starting up up her business, and Prue being at the age in her life where wanting kids was on her mind. |
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 13, 2018 3:30:00 GMT -5
It would have been fantastic to see a future that early in the second season where Prue is a photographer and Piper is a highly successful restaurant owner. Not only would it have at least set up Prue's passion for photography, but at that point in the show it would have been an absolutely shock to the viewers, even more so than Prue owning and expanding Buckland's. After all, at that point in the show Prue was established as an ambitious career woman with a stable job, and Piper hadn't owned her own business or demonstrated the aggression beneficial to being successful in as risky a business as restaurant ownership. It would've been fascinating to have seen that and then throughout the series getting to see how that developed. Honestly, Prue has had so much hardship concerning familial relationships that I'd hope–in this AU version of Morality Bites–that she wouldn't have to also go through divorce. If only, that might have been much better to see play out. I know some members of this site have had fun coming up with ideas for this in fanfics. I think Prue and Andy would be divorced, but I like the idea of them having a child much more than Piper and Leo. Prue's stories in Season 1 and 2 did show many times dealing with her being a mother. It just didn't feel right for it to be Piper, but obviously, the ideas or brainstorming they had in mind for Morality Bites was just changed to Piper and Leo when they knew Andy was getting killed off. But I am wondering how Prue would go moving forward having gone through an AU version of Morality Bites with having a daughter and being married to Andy or someone else in the future. If Piper had been the Prue in this future and the businesswoman running a business and seen how she turned out, this might have been a better direction for her character, and she may not have turned into what she became. Thinking about it, she probably would still turn into the whinny version she was in S5-8 anyway if Holly had input as a producer and Brad Kern wrote the sisters as parodies of themselves. But I like this idea of Morality Bites much better. With Prue and Piper's roles switched, because it made sense with what Piper was doing in the present with starting up up her business, and Prue being at the age in her life where wanting kids was on her mind. You make good points, Ruth Marie. While I'm not a fervent believer that Prue had to become a mother, I do feel like a part of her development was coming to terms with her surrogate mother role to her sisters and the potential of taking that responsibility once again for any children she may have in a future. I definitely feel like she had a struggle resolving her independence with the thought of once again becoming someone on whom another has to depend. The fact that we never got that closure in canon due to her untimely death is yet another frayed thread in the tapestry of her life. All of her hopes in life just died with her. An unfortunate truth. I know a lot of fans love seasons five through eight Piper and think she's so strong, but I'm of the opinion that her character lost a lot of complexity and likability. There's more to strength outside of blowing stuff up, and bitterness and snappiness–while I don't necessarily dislike those qualities in a character if balanced out in a way that makes them interesting–aren't signs of being a strong personality. I don't think there's anything wrong with Piper becoming a mother, but seeing that there's seemingly nothing else of note in her future life in Morality Bites . . . I would have liked to see what future Piper was doing outside of being a mother. On another note, I really don't need to be tempted with wanting to write a fanfic out of these ideas when I already have others I'm working on. :P |
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Feb 13, 2018 3:38:58 GMT -5
If only, that might have been much better to see play out. I know some members of this site have had fun coming up with ideas for this in fanfics. I think Prue and Andy would be divorced, but I like the idea of them having a child much more than Piper and Leo. Prue's stories in Season 1 and 2 did show many times dealing with her being a mother. It just didn't feel right for it to be Piper, but obviously, the ideas or brainstorming they had in mind for Morality Bites was just changed to Piper and Leo when they knew Andy was getting killed off. But I am wondering how Prue would go moving forward having gone through an AU version of Morality Bites with having a daughter and being married to Andy or someone else in the future. If Piper had been the Prue in this future and the businesswoman running a business and seen how she turned out, this might have been a better direction for her character, and she may not have turned into what she became. Thinking about it, she probably would still turn into the whinny version she was in S5-8 anyway if Holly had input as a producer and Brad Kern wrote the sisters as parodies of themselves. But I like this idea of Morality Bites much better. With Prue and Piper's roles switched, because it made sense with what Piper was doing in the present with starting up up her business, and Prue being at the age in her life where wanting kids was on her mind. You make good points, Ruth Marie. While I'm not a fervent believer that Prue had to become a mother, I do feel like a part of her development was coming to terms with her surrogate mother role to her sisters and the potential of taking that responsibility once again for any children she may have in a future. I definitely feel like she had a struggle resolving her independence with the thought of once again becoming someone on whom another has to depend. The fact that we never got that closure in canon due to her untimely death is yet another frayed thread in the tapestry of her life. All of her hopes in life just died with her. An unfortunate truth. I know a lot of fans love seasons five through eight Piper and think she's so strong, but I'm of the opinion that her character lost a lot of complexity and likability. There's more to strength outside of blowing stuff up, and bitterness and snappiness–while I don't necessarily dislike those qualities in a character if balanced out in a way that makes them interesting–aren't signs of being a strong personality. I don't think there's anything wrong with Piper becoming a mother, but seeing that there's seemingly nothing else of note in her future life in Morality Bites . . . I would have liked to see what future Piper was doing outside of being a mother. On another note, I really don't need to be tempted with wanting to write a fanfic out of these ideas when I already have others I'm working on.   That struggle really came up in season 3, in Just Harried where Prue's inner thoughts or her astral self had that little argument with Phoebe on not being able to do what she wanted because she had to watch her sisters live the dreams she wanted in life for herself. But I really wanted to see Prue's journey if she didn't die. Yeah, I didn't think she was strong at all. She just came across as unlikable, rude and whiny. She acted more like Holly and less like Piper. But that might be because Holly and Alyssa became producers of Charmed after season 4. That's true, we didn't see what Piper was doing when she wasn't a mother. What was her job, was she finally running her restaurant or still at P3? Hehe I know how you feel, only so many things you can write at once, best to focus on one at a time. I wish I had the time to write more, but Real Life always gets in the way. We'll see. |
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 13, 2018 3:53:54 GMT -5
You make good points, Ruth Marie. While I'm not a fervent believer that Prue had to become a mother, I do feel like a part of her development was coming to terms with her surrogate mother role to her sisters and the potential of taking that responsibility once again for any children she may have in a future. I definitely feel like she had a struggle resolving her independence with the thought of once again becoming someone on whom another has to depend. The fact that we never got that closure in canon due to her untimely death is yet another frayed thread in the tapestry of her life. All of her hopes in life just died with her. An unfortunate truth. I know a lot of fans love seasons five through eight Piper and think she's so strong, but I'm of the opinion that her character lost a lot of complexity and likability. There's more to strength outside of blowing stuff up, and bitterness and snappiness–while I don't necessarily dislike those qualities in a character if balanced out in a way that makes them interesting–aren't signs of being a strong personality. I don't think there's anything wrong with Piper becoming a mother, but seeing that there's seemingly nothing else of note in her future life in Morality Bites . . . I would have liked to see what future Piper was doing outside of being a mother. On another note, I really don't need to be tempted with wanting to write a fanfic out of these ideas when I already have others I'm working on. :) That struggle really came up in season 3, in Just Harried where Prue's inner thoughts or her astral self had that little argument with Phoebe on not being able to do what she wanted because she had to watch her sisters live the dreams she wanted in life for herself. But I really wanted to see Prue's journey if she didn't die. Yeah, I didn't think she was strong at all. She just came across as unlikable, rude and whiny. She acted more like Holly and less like Piper. But that might be because Holly and Alyssa became producers of Charmed after season 4. That's true, we didn't see what Piper was doing when she wasn't a mother. What was her job, was she finally running her restaurant or still at P3? Hehe I know how you feel, only so many things you can write at once, best to focus on one at a time. I wish I had the time to write more, but Real Life always gets in the way. We'll see. I totally forgot about how Just Harried could be applicable also! I absolutely love that episode just for the scene where Phoebe sits down Prue and reassuring her that her and Piper are okay and that Prue can take care of herself now. Same! I mean, I'm kind of glad Prue died when she did just so that her character didn't deteriorate, but in an ideal world, she would've continued living (or at least appeared in some other capacity) in a Charmed that stayed true to the earlier seasons. I also think Prue has good reason to be doubtful about having kids. After all, like she brought up in Secrets and Guys, raising a child in a life as fraught with danger as theirs? That'd be nerve-racking at the least, and I don't think Prue would ever want to endanger anyone she viewed as an innocent (especially a child), even if the danger came just from existing in proximity to her and her sisters. Even if the child never ended up in direct danger, I'm pretty sure Prue was thinking about the possibility of dying young from a warlock attack and leaving any children she had orphaned, just like what happened with her mother. There was honestly no suggestion that she even had a job, though she definitely had to have one unless future Prue was financially supporting her. We do know that Piper was not only a single mother, but had cultivated enough of a social circle among mortals concerning her daughter to the point that she has an arrangement with at least one woman and trusts her with Melinda. |
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Post by Granny Charmed on Feb 13, 2018 5:45:41 GMT -5
That struggle really came up in season 3, in Just Harried where Prue's inner thoughts or her astral self had that little argument with Phoebe on not being able to do what she wanted because she had to watch her sisters live the dreams she wanted in life for herself. But I really wanted to see Prue's journey if she didn't die. Yeah, I didn't think she was strong at all. She just came across as unlikable, rude and whiny. She acted more like Holly and less like Piper. But that might be because Holly and Alyssa became producers of Charmed after season 4. That's true, we didn't see what Piper was doing when she wasn't a mother. What was her job, was she finally running her restaurant or still at P3? Hehe I know how you feel, only so many things you can write at once, best to focus on one at a time. I wish I had the time to write more, but Real Life always gets in the way. We'll see. I also think Prue has good reason to be doubtful about having kids. After all, like she brought up in Secrets and Guys, raising a child in a life as fraught with danger as theirs? That'd be nerve-racking at the least, and I don't think Prue would ever want to endanger anyone she viewed as an innocent (especially a child), even if the danger came just from existing in proximity to her and her sisters. Even if the child never ended up in direct danger, I'm pretty sure Prue was thinking about the possibility of dying young from a warlock attack and leaving any children she had orphaned, just like what happened with her mother. That's true dear, and why they should not have had any of the sisters having a child or being pregnant until the end of the series. Because of being a Charmed Ones and the number of demons they would face was a risk. But that too would have allowed the focus to remain on the sisters and Charmed Ones, and *not* make The Twice Blessed child playing such a central role later in the series who was also male than the sisters, the show based all around female empowerment. But your right that Prue did have fear of dying young like her mother, and may have felt her child would be left orphaned. |
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 13, 2018 6:07:08 GMT -5
I also think Prue has good reason to be doubtful about having kids. After all, like she brought up in Secrets and Guys, raising a child in a life as fraught with danger as theirs? That'd be nerve-racking at the least, and I don't think Prue would ever want to endanger anyone she viewed as an innocent (especially a child), even if the danger came just from existing in proximity to her and her sisters. Even if the child never ended up in direct danger, I'm pretty sure Prue was thinking about the possibility of dying young from a warlock attack and leaving any children she had orphaned, just like what happened with her mother. That's true dear, and why they should not have had any of the sisters having a child or being pregnant until the end of the series. Because of being a Charmed Ones and the number of demons they would face was a risk. But that too would have allowed the focus to remain on the sisters and Charmed Ones, and *not* make The Twice Blessed child playing such a central role later in the series who was also male than the sisters, the show based all around female empowerment. But your right that Prue did have fear of dying young like her mother, and may have felt her child would be left orphaned. Absolutely, it would have been best for any children to come to have been brought up at the end if at all. A general rule of thumb that I've found to be true of most storytelling is that the moment a kid becomes a central role, the story is going to fall to pieces. Either it was already coming apart and the kid is an attempt to patch it up by bringing in a fresh element, or the kid is going to play a role where they're not treated as an autonomous person and are essentially an object that demands a lot of responsibility from the people around them, drawing away from paying attention to the actual narrative. One of my biggest issues with Charmed was the shift in focus from the sisters and their relationship to romantic interests and (prophesied, über-powerful, male) children. It detracted from the original message of female empowerment to say that, in the end, women will always be people second and wives/mothers first. There's nothing wrong with women also being wives and/or mothers, but the problem comes with the fact that nobody wants to see a character who is a wife/mother as an independent person also. |
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Post by Granny Charmed on Feb 13, 2018 6:39:51 GMT -5
That's true dear, and why they should not have had any of the sisters having a child or being pregnant until the end of the series. Because of being a Charmed Ones and the number of demons they would face was a risk. But that too would have allowed the focus to remain on the sisters and Charmed Ones, and *not* make The Twice Blessed child playing such a central role later in the series who was also male than the sisters, the show based all around female empowerment. But your right that Prue did have fear of dying young like her mother, and may have felt her child would be left orphaned. Absolutely, it would have been best for any children to come to have been brought up at the end if at all. A general rule of thumb that I've found to be true of most storytelling is that the moment a kid becomes a central role, the story is going to fall to pieces. Either it was already coming apart and the kid is an attempt to patch it up by bringing in a fresh element, or the kid is going to play a role where they're not treated as an autonomous person and are essentially an object that demands a lot of responsibility from the people around them, drawing away from paying attention to the actual narrative. One of my biggest issues with Charmed was the shift in focus from the sisters and their relationship to romantic interests and (prophesied, über-powerful, male) children. It detracted from the original message of female empowerment to say that, in the end, women will always be people second and wives/mothers first. There's nothing wrong with women also being wives and/or mothers, but the problem comes with the fact that nobody wants to see a character who is a wife/mother as an independent person also. That seems to be a trend for many shows when they introduce a kid into it dear, and bad writing. For a show wanting to have the message of female empowerment that says a lot when all the supporting cast was male, with the exception of Billie and the love interests played a big part As one of our member Es would say it became about The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper, her twice blessed child and Leo/Errand Boy (aka S4-8) with PhoeMe/Freebie and Ditzy Valley Girl Paige playing supporting roles. |
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 13, 2018 10:56:36 GMT -5
Absolutely, it would have been best for any children to come to have been brought up at the end if at all. A general rule of thumb that I've found to be true of most storytelling is that the moment a kid becomes a central role, the story is going to fall to pieces. Either it was already coming apart and the kid is an attempt to patch it up by bringing in a fresh element, or the kid is going to play a role where they're not treated as an autonomous person and are essentially an object that demands a lot of responsibility from the people around them, drawing away from paying attention to the actual narrative. One of my biggest issues with Charmed was the shift in focus from the sisters and their relationship to romantic interests and (prophesied, über-powerful, male) children. It detracted from the original message of female empowerment to say that, in the end, women will always be people second and wives/mothers first. There's nothing wrong with women also being wives and/or mothers, but the problem comes with the fact that nobody wants to see a character who is a wife/mother as an independent person also. That seems to be a trend for many shows when they introduce a kid into it dear. For a show wanting to have the message of female empowerment that says a lot when all the supporting cast was male, with the exception of Billie and the love interests played a big part. Doesn't help that the series ended with every sister happily married with three kids of their own. I have a daughter As one of our member Es would say it became about The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper, her twice blessed child and Leo/Errand Boy (aka S4-8) with PhoeMe/Freebie and Ditzy Valley Girl Paige playing supporting roles. I desperately wanted to see other female characters in Charmed. They would've been appreciated even in the first few seasons. It feels like the sisters had no actual social life or friends outside of people who'd show up once and we were just supposed to believe that they were still a part of the sisters' life. Haha, that's a good way of putting it. |
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Post by Ruth Marie on Feb 13, 2018 16:26:26 GMT -5
That struggle really came up in season 3, in Just Harried where Prue's inner thoughts or her astral self had that little argument with Phoebe on not being able to do what she wanted because she had to watch her sisters live the dreams she wanted in life for herself. But I really wanted to see Prue's journey if she didn't die. Yeah, I didn't think she was strong at all. She just came across as unlikable, rude and whiny. She acted more like Holly and less like Piper. But that might be because Holly and Alyssa became producers of Charmed after season 4. That's true, we didn't see what Piper was doing when she wasn't a mother. What was her job, was she finally running her restaurant or still at P3? Hehe I know how you feel, only so many things you can write at once, best to focus on one at a time. I wish I had the time to write more, but Real Life always gets in the way. We'll see. I totally forgot about how Just Harried could be applicable also! I absolutely love that episode just for the scene where Phoebe sits down Prue and reassuring her that her and Piper are okay and that Prue can take care of herself now. Same! I mean, I'm kind of glad Prue died when she did just so that her character didn't deteriorate, but in an ideal world, she would've continued living (or at least appeared in some other capacity) in a Charmed that stayed true to the earlier seasons. I also think Prue has good reason to be doubtful about having kids. After all, like she brought up in Secrets and Guys, raising a child in a life as fraught with danger as theirs? That'd be nerve-racking at the least, and I don't think Prue would ever want to endanger anyone she viewed as an innocent (especially a child), even if the danger came just from existing in proximity to her and her sisters. Even if the child never ended up in direct danger, I'm pretty sure Prue was thinking about the possibility of dying young from a warlock attack and leaving any children she had orphaned, just like what happened with her mother. There was honestly no suggestion that she even had a job, though she definitely had to have one unless future Prue was financially supporting her. We do know that Piper was not only a single mother, but had cultivated enough of a social circle among mortals concerning her daughter to the point that she has an arrangement with at least one woman and trusts her with Melinda. Prue got very lucky she died when she did because what we think might be her direction for S4 onwards wouldn't be what they would write. She would most likely turn out just as bad as Piper and Phoebe, and just as bad as Piper was being the leading sister. Part of why I never cared for the children, not just because it might endanger them and they shouldn't have had kids at all until much later. But because once they did, it stopped being about the Chamed Ones and more about the next generation and Wyatt being twice blessed. She had a somewhat social life that she had Melinda trusted with a friend. Since she had the same car she did in the present, it could be that in this AU world Piper didn't become as successful as Piper. I guess that is what we might be led to believe, just based on her having the same car. But It might just be to say Prue was the breadwinner in the family at that point in the future than Piper in this future. That seems to be a trend for many shows when they introduce a kid into it dear. For a show wanting to have the message of female empowerment that says a lot when all the supporting cast was male, with the exception of Billie and the love interests played a big part. Doesn't help that the series ended with every sister happily married with three kids of their own. I have a daughter As one of our member Es would say it became about The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper, her twice blessed child and Leo/Errand Boy (aka S4-8) with PhoeMe/Freebie and Ditzy Valley Girl Paige playing supporting roles. I desperately wanted to see other female characters in Charmed. They would've been appreciated even in the first few seasons. It feels like the sisters had no actual social life or friends outside of people who'd show up once and we were just supposed to believe that they were still a part of the sisters' life. Haha, that's a good way of putting it. It would have been nice. Sheila was the only one you could count as a female friend we saw that was in more than one episode, but that was because she was linked to Darryl being his wife. The only times we saw them have any friends was in Brain Drain and Piper's baby shower in season 5. What about Paige's friends, she just completely shut out all her family and friends once she moved in with the sisters. They didn't need to be regulars, but might have been nice to see them a few times throughout the show, and even mentioned but not seen. |
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Post by lordumbrex on Feb 13, 2018 16:48:51 GMT -5
Again, you people are so obsessed with keeping the women static. There is nothing wrong with having children on Charmed, it's one aspect of life: some people get married, some people want kids, some people want to get married and have kids, some people don't want to get married nor have kids. The idea that having children ruined the bond of the sisters is solely because the Charmed writing portrayed it that way. There are countless of story ideas that could have been made that would have strengthened the sisterly nature of the show while having children around. The real enemy is bad writing, not children.
Phoebe being a single mother after Cole was vanquished would have been an amazing storyline, not for Cole and Phoebe's child, but how the sisters would respond to such a situation. Paige was just introduced, now she has to play aunt and part-time mommy to a nephew she doesn't trust with sisters she barely knows. It would have brought them together, created natural drama between sisters, while also exploring how each sister would react: would Phoebe be okay? Would Paige learn to trust and like the son of a man she didn't trust nor like? Would Piper be jealous of her sister for having a children when she cannot?
That could have been awesome, but again, bad writing ruined the opportunity.
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 13, 2018 18:05:38 GMT -5
Again, you people are so obsessed with keeping the women static. There is nothing wrong with having children on Charmed, it's one aspect of life: some people get married, some people want kids, some people want to get married and have kids, some people don't want to get married nor have kids. The idea that having children ruined the bond of the sisters is solely because the Charmed writing portrayed it that way. There are countless of story ideas that could have been made that would have strengthened the sisterly nature of the show while having children around. The real enemy is bad writing, not children. Phoebe being a single mother after Cole was vanquished would have been an amazing storyline, not for Cole and Phoebe's child, but how the sisters would respond to such a situation. Paige was just introduced, now she has to play aunt and part-time mommy to a nephew she doesn't trust with sisters she barely knows. It would have brought them together, created natural drama between sisters, while also exploring how each sister would react: would Phoebe be okay? Would Paige learn to trust and like the son of a man she didn't trust nor like? Would Piper be jealous of her sister for having a children when she cannot? That could have been awesome, but again, bad writing ruined the opportunity. I thought I was being specific somewhere in a past post of mine about how poorly children are written and how they're usually written into a show that has already begun its decay, and why that and how it happened to Charmed is part of why I disliked it, but I suppose I may not have been clear enough. The children really did accelerate the speed at which Charmed went downhill because the writers at that point in the show didn't seem capable of writing any sort of healthy relationship. I would have loved to have seen a storyline like the one you mapped out, and I've actually been working on and off on a multi-chapter fanfic with a premise slightly similar. Likewise, I would've been happy to see the sisters get into happy relationships. While I still don't think inserting a baby into a narrative is ever a particularly good idea, since it tends to detract from the independence of the adult characters, if it had worked out well I would've even been fine with that. Not to get off-topic, but the only show I've ever seen spontaneously add in a new child character out of nowhere and make it work is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that's because it was worked into the plot and she was old enough to be autonomous, while still young enough that she still ups the ante of both plot and domestic conflicts. There's nothing wrong with women desiring or having relationships or children, I agree, but the premise of the show is rooted in the notion of the sisterhood being the most important thing; it's literally their special power that allows them to stand up against evils that nobody else on the side of good can. When the focus is shifted from the sisterhood to boyfriends and husbands and babies, that's altering the message that first drew the viewers in and has the suggestion that, in the end, no other relationship will be as important as the romantic/parent one. This is merely my perspective on the matter, though, and I understand why others would hold differing views. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 13, 2018 19:16:25 GMT -5
I agree totally. Lordumbrex's storyline sounds wonderful, but not if it was written during S4-8. As Lupa puts in her wonderful Manic Episodes review: www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3rrnJExXbY and repeats constantly, if Charmed has a wonderful idea, you can bet they'll do it stupid. Lordumbrex, you should check those out starting with Season Three: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF9qUOfrKl4 Since she also thinks Season Three is the best one and Cole is the best character, I have a hunch you'd enjoy it. |
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Feb 14, 2018 4:34:02 GMT -5
Phoebe being a single mother after Cole was vanquished would have been an amazing storyline, not for Cole and Phoebe's child, but how the sisters would respond to such a situation. Paige was just introduced, now she has to play aunt and part-time mommy to a nephew she doesn't trust with sisters she barely knows. It would have brought them together, created natural drama between sisters, while also exploring how each sister would react: would Phoebe be okay? Would Paige learn to trust and like the son of a man she didn't trust nor like? Would Piper be jealous of her sister for having a children when she cannot? That could have been awesome, but again, bad writing ruined the opportunity. Well that would have been a very great story for S4-8 dear, especially for Phoebe's character moving forward. |
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Post by Elle Em on Feb 14, 2018 8:14:22 GMT -5
Even with fantastic writing, I don't think adding children would have been a good idea. Whether it's done well or done poorly, it does change the dynamic of the show.
It is completely normal for most people to be focused on having children at some point, and that doesn't bother me with the sisters. But the show started out with a sister focus, and no matter how a child is written into the show, it still changes things. I don't think they should have never had children. I just didn't want to see it. If that means the show ends earlier than it did to avoid them, then I'd prefer that.
For me the show is about these three women living in a big city who can stay out late at night and leave the house at a moment's notice without having to worry about anyone but each other. These are the characters I grew to love, not people whose identities are also caught up in being mothers. And again, they can become mothers at some point, but I'm not interested in seeing it.
And while children may provide a lot of new story ideas, especially the idea that Phoebe doesn't lose her and Cole's baby, I think there were plenty of non-children ideas that the show could have explored instead. Or even just before they had kids, which would put off having children for a few more seasons. For example, the Cole storyline of season 3 was too rushed. That could have been drawn out over two seasons easily. We could have seen Piper attempting to run her own restaurant or catering business and have that set up before deciding to start to have children. We could have seen Phoebe in the temp job position instead of Paige, taking more time for her to get to her advice column. We could have had a longer transition time for Paige where it takes more than a few months for her to move in with her sisters and accept magic. She was introduced to us with the idea that she's still close to some of her adopted family members and that she's a former alcoholic.
These are all such rich ideas with such potential that were either cast aside or not thought of at all, and once a child is brought into the story, it makes it harder to keep the focus on the sisters. It's possible to do just about any story while a kid is there, but it changes the feel of the show, and it rushes along the idea of the sisters being tied down into more responsibilities and a motherly role, cutting back on their opportunities and time where they can identify solely as themselves and not as a parent.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 14, 2018 8:22:07 GMT -5
Even with fantastic writing, I don't think adding children would have been a good idea. Whether it's done well or done poorly, it does change the dynamic of the show. It is completely normal for most people to be focused on having children at some point, and that doesn't bother me with the sisters. But the show started out with a sister focus, and no matter how a child is written into the show, it still changes things. I don't think they should have never had children. I just didn't want to see it. If that means the show ends earlier than it did to avoid them, then I'd prefer that. For me the show is about these three women living in a big city who can stay out late at night and leave the house at a moment's notice without having to worry about anyone but each other. These are the characters I grew to love, not people whose identities are also caught up in being mothers. And again, they can become mothers at some point, but I'm not interested in seeing it. And while children may provide a lot of new story ideas, especially the idea that Phoebe doesn't lose her and Cole's baby, I think there were plenty of non-children ideas that the show could have explored instead. Or even just before they had kids, which would put off having children for a few more seasons. For example, the Cole storyline of season 3 was too rushed. That could have been drawn out over two seasons easily. We could have seen Piper attempting to run her own restaurant or catering business and have that set up before deciding to start to have children. We could have seen Phoebe in the temp job position instead of Paige, taking more time for her to get to her advice column. We could have had a longer transition time for Paige where it takes more than a few months for her to move in with her sisters and accept magic. She was introduced to us with the idea that she's still close to some of her adopted family members and that she's a former alcoholic. These are all such rich ideas with such potential that were either cast aside or not thought of at all, and once a child is brought into the story, it makes it harder to keep the focus on the sisters. It's possible to do just about any story while a kid is there, but it changes the feel of the show, and it rushes along the idea of the sisters being tied down into more responsibilities and a motherly role, cutting back on their opportunities and time where they can identify solely as themselves and not as a parent. Couldn't agree more if I tried. Having a child is a very, very typical Jump the Shark moment for all the reasons you stated. Had the show ended at one of the moments when it should've: with 'Witch Way Now?' with Piper announcing she's pregnant at the very end, that's the perfect time to adds kids. But not after it. Had they included the Chris-story by having a child from the future come to the past for a couple of episodes only with the kid returning to the future at the end of that particular "day" or with the sisters going forward in time and seeing their possible kids (since it wouldn't include Melinda from 'Morality Bites' - maybe Prudence Melinda, but not Melinda, since Melinda's from a different timeline that would still include Prue and doesn't include Paige - that would've been the perfect way to include children. But I'd still prefer if they wait for their own spin-off, which probably would've happened if Charmed had only gone four seasons. |
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Post by lordumbrex on Feb 14, 2018 16:00:46 GMT -5
For me the show is about these three women living in a big city who can stay out late at night and leave the house at a moment's notice without having to worry about anyone but each other. But that's just flat out not the premise. Prue's story-line from the start was her feelings for Andy, wrestling with her introduction to her powers and trying to protect him from the unknown dangers. Literally the entire point of the season finale of the first season was her worrying about Andy. Yet, you felt that the show was about not having to worry about anyone but themselves, which shows that good writing can show the sisterly dynamic even with other stories. Season two, Piper worrying about Dan and Leo. Like, the idea of them not having to worry about anyone but each other isn't in the show at all from the start. It was literally a Constance M. Burge story. And again, I'm not saying they have to have children. Personally, I think Phoebe should have been the only one shown to have a child as that would make her story arc go full circle, but to say they can't because it changes the dynamic of the show is lazy. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 14, 2018 18:49:11 GMT -5
Completely totally different definition of "lazy" - the lazy writing was having Phoebe have the Phoetus to begin with - a storyline totally unnecessary and best left out. Phoebe was the last ones who should've had kids. The only way she would've come full circle is if she was once more the free spirit we saw in S1-2 and with a half-demon child, that would've been impossible. Letting her mourn Cole and learn from her experience but without a child (and not immediately spreading her legs for the next guy who showed up) would've been a much better continuation of her story. She should not have been with another guy for at least a year after Cole was gone - ditto for Piper when Leo was gone.
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Post by lordumbrex on Feb 14, 2018 20:59:54 GMT -5
By full circle, I meant she started out as someone who had no responsibility then learned and grew until someone that could handle responsibility by the end of season 2. Then she meets Cole, eschewing her responsibility before learning and growing as he middle sister to be someone that could handle motherhood at the end of season 4. Now, she's a mother...a single mother at that...can she grow and handle this responsibility, too, like she did her witch ones and her sisterly ones? Or will she flounder like everyone expects? Her story arc would go full circle, not her character. (and I'm just using my story as an example, not that Phoebe being a mother has to follow that exact way)
And no idea why you think she's the last one that should have a child, when every time they ever needed motherly tenderness in the show prior to season 4's episode of Lost and Bound, it was always Phoebe giving it.
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 14, 2018 21:44:56 GMT -5
It was always Phoebe giving it? I'm sorry, but that's ignoring a lot of the same demonstrated by the other sisters. Also, the tenderness on Phoebe's part wasn't always motherly? I mean, there are varying ways of interpretation, but my personal one is that she's empathetic (ironically more so before she got her empathy power) so she was coming from a place of 'I can feel how you're hurting and it hurts me and I'm going to listen and provide to your needs as I can.' Which is great, I was honestly hoping post-S2 that she'd eventually get a job as a therapist or something. I didn't really see Phoebe's demonstrations of tenderness as coming from a motherly angle where she feels particularly responsible for the person she's consoling or whatever.
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