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Post by Hexenwerk on Jun 1, 2018 22:39:48 GMT -5
Same! The more I rewatch the earlier seasons, the more I realize that there were a lot more restrictions on Whitelighters (what they could and could not do, but sensible things rather than "no eating on the job" or whatever) earlier in the show that prevented the overuse of healing and cosmic taxiing, and that Love Hurts was one of multiple episodes where Piper and Leo's relationship could have been ended perfectly. If it had been ended in Love Hurts, then I could totally see Mark coming back as a Cupid or something and him and Piper ending up together. As I always said, I wished Leo had never returned after Love Hurts and Andy stayed. Obviously, Leo and whitelighters were supposed to be short-term but when the actor playing Andy left, and some loved Leo and Piper, they kept him on. It meant they changed all the mythology they had started with. With Leo out of the picture, that means No Elders. I wonder if without a whitelighter and the established mythology that whitelighters are not supposed to be found out and staying short-term. That we ever get anything more on them. I don't think so. Once Leo stayed dear, that meant altering the already done rules with whitelighters in S1. Suddenly they can have children, and eat and so on. I still believe dear, that Morality Bites was written with Andy and Prue and not Piper and Leo. It felt so forced when Leo was gone and suddenly reappears in Morality Bites and they are together. The Painted World was filmed and written as the second episode, with the Piper/Dan story starting up. But the episode was pushed forward, wondering if early signs of disagreements between Connie and Brad happened here over keeping Leo? As some members pointed out in a thread a while back, Piper's character changed because of what she went through seeing the future and seeing her daughter Melinda. It had a big influence on her life going forward. Now, If Mark was Piper's endgame. That would be great. Now I don't think Mark being a whitelighter would help. although he fits better with Piper and has better chemistry, we still run into the same problems Piper/Leo faced. I'd love to see what someone could come up with Mark as Cupid. Although how he becomes one, I don't know? I never considered that about Morality Bites and The Painted World, but it totally makes sense! Definitely wouldn't want Mark to be a Whitelighter, I agree there. I'd be tempted to write a fanfic for Mark as a Cupid, but I still need to find a beta for my fanfiction (mostly as someone who'll keep me accountable for actually writing, to be honest). |
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Jun 1, 2018 22:48:36 GMT -5
Interesting to consider how S2 would play out if Morality Bites wasn't included in the earlier episodes, and Leo had returned in The Devil's Music for the first time since Love Hurts instead. Piper wouldn't have visited the future and saw what she saw, and how would her feelings for Dan and Leo have played out.
But it makes sense with the switch of those episodes, the writing did feel strange where Leo was back in MB but then suddenly is gone in TPW and Piper is starting to like Dan. Maybe the season really does work better if the order was Witch Trial, The Painted World and then The Devil's Music (Leo's return). Maybe Morality Bites was better off being pushed to the very end of S2. That would make a better season finale than what we got.
I never considered Mark as a whitelighter, I don't want that. Mark as Cupid would be something I've never heard before, but I'm sure could be a fun read.
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Post by West on Jun 2, 2018 1:46:49 GMT -5
Yeah they meshed well with common interests. He would have been perfect if he was in place of Dan and became her permanent love interest. If someone could find a way to keep him even as a ghost around longterm. I'd love to hear ideas.I've played around with Mark being brought back as a cupid. Don't know if that would appeal to anyone? I've never heard that idea before. What did you consider doing with it? How would he become a Cupid, I'm intrigued. |
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Jun 2, 2018 21:09:10 GMT -5
As I always said, I wished Leo had never returned after Love Hurts and Andy stayed. Obviously, Leo and whitelighters were supposed to be short-term but when the actor playing Andy left, and some loved Leo and Piper, they kept him on. It meant they changed all the mythology they had started with. With Leo out of the picture, that means No Elders. I wonder if without a whitelighter and the established mythology that whitelighters are not supposed to be found out and staying short-term. That we ever get anything more on them. I don't think so. Once Leo stayed dear, that meant altering the already done rules with whitelighters in S1. Suddenly they can have children, and eat and so on. I still believe dear, that Morality Bites was written with Andy and Prue and not Piper and Leo. It felt so forced when Leo was gone and suddenly reappears in Morality Bites and they are together. The Painted World was filmed and written as the second episode, with the Piper/Dan story starting up. But the episode was pushed forward, wondering if early signs of disagreements between Connie and Brad happened here over keeping Leo? As some members pointed out in a thread a while back, Piper's character changed because of what she went through seeing the future and seeing her daughter Melinda. It had a big influence on her life going forward. Now, If Mark was Piper's endgame. That would be great. Now I don't think Mark being a whitelighter would help. although he fits better with Piper and has better chemistry, we still run into the same problems Piper/Leo faced. I'd love to see what someone could come up with Mark as Cupid. Although how he becomes one, I don't know? I never considered that about Morality Bites and The Painted World, but it totally makes sense! Definitely wouldn't want Mark to be a Whitelighter, I agree there. I'd be tempted to write a fanfic for Mark as a Cupid, but I still need to find a beta for my fanfiction (mostly as someone who'll keep me accountable for actually writing, to be honest). I always found the start of S2 odd, when Leo suddenly showed up. And when I checked production and episode numbering found out that it wasn't the second episode. Same here, as much as Mark is a good character, I don't think to make him a whitelighter would stop us from seeing the same problems dear that Piper/Leo faced. Good luck with the writing. I look forward to seeing what you decide to do. |
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Post by Astral Chaos on Jun 3, 2018 2:09:50 GMT -5
A few years back, I was working on an AU one-shot reinterpretation of "The Day Magic Died" with Mark (Cupid) as the baby father & Piper's husband. If I remember correctly, my head-verse backstory was along the lines of: Leo died during "Love Hurts", Phoebe died instead of Andy in "Déjà Vu All Over Again", Paige was the sister with foresight powers, Prue was still alive, Natalie ("Blinded by the Whitelighter") was their whitelighter.
But that's just one of many potential Cupid-Mark incorporated scenarios I've played with. Usually, in my mind, he's reintroduced either as a way to help Piper open her heart/feel love again or in a "Heartbreak City" type of episode.
The explanation on how he became a Cupid? I don't really remember. It was never explained on the show to my recollection; I think I always wrote it as something to do with him crossing over with his heart full of joy, hope and love for his Mom & Piper. But like I said, don't quite remember.
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Post by Hexenwerk on Jun 3, 2018 3:49:49 GMT -5
A few years back, I was working on an AU one-shot reinterpretation of "The Day Magic Died" with Mark (Cupid) as the baby father & Piper's husband. If I remember correctly, my head-verse backstory was along the lines of: Leo died during "Love Hurts", Phoebe died instead of Andy in "Déjà Vu All Over Again", Paige was the sister with foresight powers, Prue was still alive, Natalie ("Blinded by the Whitelighter") was their whitelighter. But that's just one of many potential Cupid-Mark incorporated scenarios I've played with. Usually, in my mind, he's reintroduced either as a way to help Piper open her heart/feel love again or in a "Heartbreak City" type of episode. The explanation on how he became a Cupid? I don't really remember. It was never explained on the show to my recollection; I think I always wrote it as something to do with him crossing over with his heart full of joy, hope and love for his Mom & Piper. But like I said, don't quite remember. Do you have that oneshot written down somewhere? Or any stories of this AU? I'm absolutely intrigued by all the different elements you've brought up from it! (Also I'm glad you incorporated Natalie because I honestly wanted to see more of her than the one episode she was in.) |
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Post by stratego on Jul 26, 2020 12:26:17 GMT -5
They were cute together, but John Cho is such a bad actor.
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Aaeiyn
Elder
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 22, 2021 19:53:13 GMT -5
I have no negative things to say about Piper & Mark. Piper's quest in wanting in a "normal life", she had way more chemistry with Mark, than she did with Dan (S2). Mark was the best person for the job, in achieving Piper's quest for a "normal life".
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Post by BewitchingBeauties87 on Aug 27, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -5
Mark and Piper were amazing together. I felt i was watching two people who were actually in love, a feeling i rarely got from watching Piper and Leo together. Anyway, as others have said it was probably a beautiful relationship because it only existed for a short time. We can idealize how perfect they would have been together because we witnessed them falling in love, which as all of us know from our personal lives, is a romanticized moment in time we love to replay in our minds over and over again. The later drudgery that mostly comes with staying with someone for too long (aka Piper and Leo) that we can live without! j/k.  |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 27, 2021 15:35:49 GMT -5
Mark and Piper were amazing together. I felt i was watching two people who were actually in love, a feeling i rarely got from watching Piper and Leo together. Anyway, as others have said it was probably a beautiful relationship because it only existed for a short time. We can idealize how perfect they would have been together because we witnessed them falling in love, which as all of us know from our personal lives, is a romanticized moment in time we love to replay in our minds over and over again. The later drudgery that mostly comes with staying with someone for too long (aka Piper and Leo) that we can live without! j/k. LOL, you are SO right about all of that! This is especially true when Kern didn't get a chance to use the relationships to ruin the characters' personalities, making them worse people than they were before they met the guy, so true of Piper and Leo and Phoebe and Cole - longtime relationships that ruined both the Halliwell and her guy. It makes me glad that Andy died when he did or that Mark only lasted one episode, Eric only lasted one episode, Cupid (not Coop...) only lasted one episode, Bane only lasted two episodes and Drake three. It's amazing that for as long as Henry was on the show, Kern didn't ruin HIS character. He and Young Wyatt were the only characters I liked in S8 - I would've loved Paige if they didn't turn her into a living whitelighter... |
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Post by BewitchingBeauties87 on Aug 27, 2021 16:10:36 GMT -5
Mark and Piper were amazing together. I felt i was watching two people who were actually in love, a feeling i rarely got from watching Piper and Leo together. Anyway, as others have said it was probably a beautiful relationship because it only existed for a short time. We can idealize how perfect they would have been together because we witnessed them falling in love, which as all of us know from our personal lives, is a romanticized moment in time we love to replay in our minds over and over again. The later drudgery that mostly comes with staying with someone for too long (aka Piper and Leo) that we can live without! j/k. LOL, you are SO right about all of that! This is especially true when Kern didn't get a chance to use the relationships to ruin the characters' personalities, making them worse people than they were before they met the guy, so true of Piper and Leo and Phoebe and Cole - longtime relationships. It makes me glad that Andy died when he did or that Mark only lasted one episode, Eric only lasted one episode, Cupid (not Coop...) only lasted one episode, Bane only lasted two episodes and Drake three. It's amazing that for as long as Henry was on the show, Kern didn't ruin HIS character. He and Young Wyatt were the only characters I liked in S8 - I would've loved Paige if they didn't turn her into a living whitelighter. I think "oh no, why did you go and do that? Who's going to pick up the kids?" (after Billie makes Leo disappear in season 8) perfectly defines 90 percent of Piper and Leo's relationship lol. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 27, 2021 16:11:06 GMT -5
A few years back, I was working on an AU one-shot reinterpretation of "The Day Magic Died" with Mark (Cupid) as the baby father & Piper's husband. If I remember correctly, my head-verse backstory was along the lines of: Leo died during "Love Hurts", Phoebe died instead of Andy in "Déjà Vu All Over Again", Paige was the sister with foresight powers, Prue was still alive, Natalie ("Blinded by the Whitelighter") was their whitelighter. But that's just one of many potential Cupid-Mark incorporated scenarios I've played with. Usually, in my mind, he's reintroduced either as a way to help Piper open her heart/feel love again or in a "Heartbreak City" type of episode. The explanation on how he became a Cupid? I don't really remember. It was never explained on the show to my recollection; I think I always wrote it as something to do with him crossing over with his heart full of joy, hope and love for his Mom & Piper. But like I said, don't quite remember. WOW, AC, if I've read this before, I'd forgotten it, but I REALLY like your setup! That would've made a fantastic first-three seasons! You know Kern would've figured a way to screw them up in S4-8. So what the Elders did for Phoebe (giving her Coop), you did that for Piper (giving her Mark as Cupid)! It makes so much more sense than the Elders doing something that would (and did) make Phoebe even more PhoeME than she was before, while Piper with Cupid (aka Mark) before she became Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper makes SO much more sense! Especially if having him as a cupid means she can't have any kids - she was such a crappy mother, especially with magical children, unless you made her otherwise. And I totally love your explanation as to why Mark would come back as a cupid - and even why he'd call himself Cupid - he sure wouldn't call himself Mark! Makes me wonder if Drazi was Tony, the guy who killed Mark...I can sure see him turning into a Drazi, a demon of hate! OH, DON'T I WISH!! |
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Aug 27, 2021 20:10:06 GMT -5
Oh, I loved Mark and Piper together, but I do think it's because the show didn't have time to destroy them or Mark in general. Sometimes it's better to have things as fanfics than the real thing, which is really sad when I think too much about it LOL.
That's interesting about Morality Bites and Painted World. It certainly makes a lot of sense looking back from what I can remember of the episodes. It's been a while since I've watched any of them.
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Post by The Crone on Aug 27, 2021 20:34:15 GMT -5
Oh, I loved Mark and Piper together, but I do think it's because the show didn't have time to destroy them or Mark in general. Sometimes it's better to have things as fanfics than the real thing, which is really sad when I think too much about it LOL. That's interesting about Morality Bites and Painted World. It certainly makes a lot of sense looking back from what I can remember of the episodes. It's been a while since I've watched any of them. Me too. It really is a blessing in a way, because fanfics really prove to handle things better. Charmed always had a problem with ruining a good thing. They have so many great ideas, but the execution of the ideas for the most part never translate well on screen. Most of my favorite ships were the ones that didn't last too long. Less chances of the writers destroying them. |
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Aug 28, 2021 12:11:20 GMT -5
I do feel for the writers a lot of the time. It's hard when you have 10 or so writers in a room with everyone bouncing ideas off. Some will speak up to say something doesn't seem right but then everyone else is against them. Or the showrunner ends up with the last say. Usually, it's not the writers themselves but the showrunner or one of the executive producers. I tend to be nicer to the individual writers than I am to those in charge  But while episodes usually have one writer's name (sometimes two), every writer has had a say in the basic storyline for that episode. It's not just that one writer's vision. Something I loved about The Tudors and Vikings is that Michael Hirst was the only writer for every single episode of both of those shows. While both shows had various flaws, the writing for individual characters mostly remained consistent because of it. There are always things that people forget and it takes a good editor or someone there just for continuity issues to catch, but for the most part, Michael Hirst shows how it can be done with one writer. But yes, a lot of my favorite ships or my favorite storylines are the ones that never really got to be or didn't go on too long. It's not just a Charmed problem, though. A lot of TV shows have a problem with great ideas that are poorly executed or characters that are eventually destroyed for the sake of a story. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Vampire Diaries, Arrow, The Blacklist, Grey's Anatomy just to name a few. Most of them involve simply being on the air for way too long. I find after five seasons, most shows go completely off the rails and don't know what to do and then they end up ruining things already set up in previous seasons. |
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 28, 2021 12:21:31 GMT -5
But yes, a lot of my favorite ships or my favorite storylines are the ones that never really got to be or didn't go on too long. It's not just a Charmed problem, though. A lot of TV shows have a problem with great ideas that are poorly executed or characters that are eventually destroyed for the sake of a story. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Vampire Diaries, Arrow, The Blacklist, Grey's Anatomy just to name a few. Most of them involve simply being on the air for way too long. I find after five seasons, most shows go completely off the rails and don't know what to do and then they end up ruining things already set up in previous seasons. So much this! It's why I just shrug off most of the verbal abuse that Piper does to Leo because IK it's bad writing trying to add "drama" for them to overcome. It's the same 'ol routine, with every TV Show. It doesn't phase me. |
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Post by Katie Warren on Aug 28, 2021 16:51:21 GMT -5
I do feel for the writers a lot of the time. It's hard when you have 10 or so writers in a room with everyone bouncing ideas off. Some will speak up to say something doesn't seem right but then everyone else is against them. Or the showrunner ends up with the last say. Usually, it's not the writers themselves but the showrunner or one of the executive producers. I tend to be nicer to the individual writers than I am to those in charge But while episodes usually have one writer's name (sometimes two), every writer has had a say in the basic storyline for that episode. It's not just that one writer's vision. Something I loved about The Tudors and Vikings is that Michael Hirst was the only writer for every single episode of both of those shows. While both shows had various flaws, the writing for individual characters mostly remained consistent because of it. There are always things that people forget and it takes a good editor or someone there just for continuity issues to catch, but for the most part, Michael Hirst shows how it can be done with one writer. But yes, a lot of my favorite ships or my favorite storylines are the ones that never really got to be or didn't go on too long. It's not just a Charmed problem, though. A lot of TV shows have a problem with great ideas that are poorly executed or characters that are eventually destroyed for the sake of a story. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Vampire Diaries, Arrow, The Blacklist, Grey's Anatomy just to name a few. Most of them involve simply being on the air for way too long. I find after five seasons, most shows go completely off the rails and don't know what to do and then they end up ruining things already set up in previous seasons. I'm the same way. Why I don't blame any of the ones who got hired after S3, especially with what they know about the writers room under Kern and how it was run. I never knew that Lexi, that a show had one writer for every episode in a show. WOW! That must be exhausting to write all of them. You are right about that. One thing I hate these days is writers pandering to a cult ship that a small fanbase online seem to rave about, even ones that are not even canon at the time. Yeah, I always prefer quality over quantity. I've noticed that streaming shows don't even last long, the only show that has even managed to last seven seasons is Orange is the New Black, no streaming show has ever lasted as long as that. It seems to be 3-4 seasons max. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 28, 2021 17:05:38 GMT -5
I do feel for the writers a lot of the time. It's hard when you have 10 or so writers in a room with everyone bouncing ideas off. Some will speak up to say something doesn't seem right but then everyone else is against them. Or the showrunner ends up with the last say. Usually, it's not the writers themselves but the showrunner or one of the executive producers. I tend to be nicer to the individual writers than I am to those in charge But while episodes usually have one writer's name (sometimes two), every writer has had a say in the basic storyline for that episode. It's not just that one writer's vision. Something I loved about The Tudors and Vikings is that Michael Hirst was the only writer for every single episode of both of those shows. While both shows had various flaws, the writing for individual characters mostly remained consistent because of it. There are always things that people forget and it takes a good editor or someone there just for continuity issues to catch, but for the most part, Michael Hirst shows how it can be done with one writer. But yes, a lot of my favorite ships or my favorite storylines are the ones that never really got to be or didn't go on too long. It's not just a Charmed problem, though. A lot of TV shows have a problem with great ideas that are poorly executed or characters that are eventually destroyed for the sake of a story. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Vampire Diaries, Arrow, The Blacklist, Grey's Anatomy just to name a few. Most of them involve simply being on the air for way too long. I find after five seasons, most shows go completely off the rails and don't know what to do and then they end up ruining things already set up in previous seasons. You are absolutely right about a lot of that, Lexi (with your job, I'm not surprised...) I've read Nell Scovell's book and she talks all the time of how the showrunners and executive producers will have the final say, sometimes totally ruining what the writer had in mind. She was especially not happy about how the Charmed writer's room was run. At that time she was the only woman and they didn't respect her ideas at all. I wish Nell had had a chance to be Charmed's showrunner rather than Kern from Day One, but she was busy with other shows. Besides, I still think Aaron Spelling would've messed things up. |
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Aug 28, 2021 20:15:53 GMT -5
I was so surprised when I initially learned this and then had to do some digging. Michael Hirst takes a lot of liberties with history, but to see how the writing can be done by one person, I can forgive them. And he doesn't just do drama for the sake of it. It's historically related.
Yes! There have been a lot of things recently from the writer's room of Charmed and a few other shows around that time. They weren't great rooms. The Office is another one that comes to mind. Mindy Kaling had to put up with a lot of s*%t as the only female and writer of color in that writer's room. I'm so glad a lot of rooms are starting to move on from that toxicity. There are a lot of writers (men as well as women) calling out showrunners now and I'm so glad they have the guts to do it.
I've been fortunate to meet some great showrunners over the years. I've also been unfortunate to meet some terribly toxic ones and it's clear who they are just by initially speaking to them but they hold so much power that as a journalist, I just have to grin and bear it at the time. I just learn who not to want to interview again. By the way, for Supernatural/Timeless/The Boys fans, Eric Kripke is one of the good ones. He remains one of my favorites to interview.
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Post by BriannaWarren2.0 on Aug 28, 2021 21:12:57 GMT -5
I love Piper and Mark too, if they didn't put Piper with Leo they should have written her with Mark, they would have been a lovely couple.
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