How do you feel warlocks have been developed and portrayed?

[zachary]

Personally, I think it could’ve been better than what it was, and I feel as though they were under-developed post-S2.

Warlocks obtaining any being's power, does it muddy the waters and make warlocks too overpowered?

We’re to assume that warlocks obtain abilities from witches, but S3’s “Blinded By the Whitelighter” shows us that warlocks, or at least Eames, was able to obtain powers he stole from a whitelighter.. So warlocks don’t just steal powers from witches, but whitelighters and other good counterparts, yeah? I think we even saw a warlock steal a demon’s abilities in the "Crimes and Witchdemeanors" episode. (Upon further research) Devlin and his warlock pal did kill a demon for his shapeshifting power in "Muse to My Ears", and it was mentioned by Cole and Leo that there was a law against warlocks stealing the powers of demons. It is considered treason and punishable by death. – So warlocks can, in fact, obtain powers from demons, as well.

Warlocks and Witches - both come with a unique gift.. Though we never see it after season 2: Do you think its because  they may have become overpowered?

I think one thing that I loved about warlocks, was that they had a unique ability on their own, which could aid them in killing witches (At least before blinking and fireball/energyballs became a norm). I'm still confused on what ability Jeremy had himself, though its been theorized to be the shapeshifting face we see in the elevator; But Nicholas seemed to have some unique connection to his ring, maybe he could channel his blood-boiling ability with it; Rex had some form of astral projection; Hannah could shapeshift and control fire/heat; The Rowe brothers seemed to each posses an individual gift as well, although we don't see Brendan's; Gavin (From the future), not certain if his three-eye and light ray is an individual ability, but if we're to assume he's apart of a "breed", then maybe, like The Collectors, it's a rare power for a group of individuals. Matthew of course goes without saying, but he was the first one we're told has a "gift". We're not told or shown what other powers Jane had from "The Painted World", but she did light the painting on fire. Malcom was speculated to have x-ray vision, as that's how he read the painting and was trapped. The Collectors, like I mentioned with Gavin, had unique abilities, and although both collectors had them, it's assumed to be a rare and unique power. Anton
had glamouring, and Dragon could fly & breath fire. Afterwhich, no other warlocks have unique abilities.

Warlock “Breeds”: Why do you think “Breeds” of warlocks were introduced into the show, and how do you feel about what we've seen? 

Especially for them to have one introductory episode only to never be seen again. We have The Collectors, Familiar Hunters, Familiar Warlocks, a Dragon Warlock, and a Three-Eyed Warlock from the future– In my opinion, that completely botched warlocks.. If they’re going to have breeds and such, which differ from the factions we saw in S4, they may as well have just been breeds of demons...

Warlock Vanquishes: Are they powerful enough to need the Po3?

as mentioned in "They're Everywhere" by Prue, there’s about 19 warlock-specified vanquishing spells. Do you think Jeremy needed to be vanquished with the Po3 spell, or do you think any of the other 19 vanquishes would’ve been satisfactory? (Granted, they didn’t know the spells at the time, but I’m purely just hypothesizing).

In “Blinded By the Whitelighter”, the sisters create a spell that has to counter all of the abilities Eames obtained. If that’s the general requirement for a warlock vanquish, why are there pre-written spells in the book? Are these in regards to warlocks that don’t just obtain powers? Maybe they’re for the breed warlocks, like the Collectors and such– despite the fact that the Po3 spell worked on Dragon…I don’t see why they didn’t just use the Po3 spell on Eames or Nicholas. Funny, if we use the requirements for warlock spells, I wonder why the spell used in “Muse to My Ears” didn’t have any lines that countered the abilities Devlin and his faction picked up.

Evil Witches Vs Warlock name debacle:

We’re told Tuatha, P. Russell, and the Stillmans are “Evil witches”, as opposed to “Warlocks”, why do you think there’s a difference between evil witches and warlocks, if there’s any at all. Do you think the show made this distinguishment because they didn’t want to call them “Warlocks” due to it’s masculin derivation?

Storylines; What do you think we could’ve gotten, and what do you think we were robbed of?:

As far as what we got, I feel like the show did a good job with giving Jeremy a long-term plan, dating Piper, making him more of a menacing and shocking revelation and execution (Even if he was obvious to some). I heavily appreciate Rex & Hannah having an 8-episode arc in-which the main antagonists are warlocks; including “The Witch Is Back”, which had Matthew, an incredibly powerful warlock. Aside from them, Eames, Zile, Bacarra, and Devil & his faction were the only warlock threats that actually created stakes, which feels lackluster of a number for an 8-season show.

I think we could’ve gotten more emphasis on how powerful and dangerous warlocks are. I love that demons are a threat, but I wish warlocks received that same level of attention that most demons (especially earlier seasons) were given. Like we saw with Bacarra, he was able to blink into the attic, perform Tuatha’s spell that separates witches from their powers, and vanquish 2/3 of The Charmed Ones; we should’ve seen the sisters practice a way to protect the house from that, like they learned how to stop warlocks from blinking with potions.

We were robbed of another, deeper storyline that Brendan had from the Rowe coven; A warlock that wants to be good, but by nature, is evil. If that would’ve been repetitive, then I think a warlock trying to become the source, climbing the ladder over a season– would’ve been a great arc.

Out of all the warlocks, who was your favorite? Who was your least favorite? Who should’ve had more screen-time, and who should’ve had less? *list of warlocks in comment below*

* I also want to note that I noticed it's been stated that Warlocks were the main antagonists of S1, and while I agree that they're predominately featured on S1, S1 actually held a decent balance between its antagonists; 6 episodes for demons, 6 episodes for warlocks, and 10 episodes for miscellaneous--(like mythological creatures, darklighters, evil witches, ghosts, or humans).
S2 had 11 episodes for demons, 4 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.
*I was initially just wanting to see the comparison between 1 & 2, but ultimately did it for the other seasons as well. Warlocks are entirely eliminated by S7.
S3 had 12 episodes for demons, 3 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.
S4 had 12 episodes for demons, 1 episode for warlocks, and 9 episodes for miscellaneous.
S5 had 17 episodes for demons, 2 episodes for warlocks, and 3 episodes for miscellaneous.
S6 had 9 episodes for demons, 1 episode for warlocks, and 13 episodes for miscellaneous.
S7 had 16 episodes for demons, 0 episodes for warlocks, and 6 episodes for miscellaneous.
S8 had 15 episodes for demons, 0 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.

[zachary]

As promised, here's a list of all the warlocks we've been introduced to.

S1: 

Jeremy
Nicholas
Rex
Hannah
Rowe coven
Gavin (From the future)
Matthew
S2:

Jane
Malcom
The Collectors
Anton
Dragon
S3: 

Eames
Zile
Shadow

S4:

Devlin
Jackson
Hector

S5: 

Bacarra
Kane (advisor from "The Day That Magic Died")
Familiar Hunter
S6: 

Nigel

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

Jul 25, 2023 15:39:42 GMT -5 zachary said:

Personally, I think it could’ve been better than what it was, and I feel as though they were under-developed post-S2.

Warlocks obtaining any being's power, does it muddy the waters and make warlocks too overpowered?

We’re to assume that warlocks obtain abilities from witches, but S3’s “Blinded By the Whitelighter” shows us that warlocks, or at least Eames, was able to obtain powers he stole from a whitelighter.. So warlocks don’t just steal powers from witches, but whitelighters and other good counterparts, yeah? I think we even saw a warlock steal a demon’s abilities in the "Crimes and Witchdemeanors" episode. (Upon further research) Devlin and his warlock pal did kill a demon for his shapeshifting power in "Muse to My Ears", and it was mentioned by Cole and Leo that there was a law against warlocks stealing the powers of demons. It is considered treason and punishable by death. – So warlocks can, in fact, obtain powers from demons, as well.

Warlocks and Witches - both come with a unique gift.. Though we never see it after season 2: Do you think its because  they may have become overpowered?

I think one thing that I loved about warlocks, was that they had a unique ability on their own, which could aid them in killing witches (At least before blinking and fireball/energyballs became a norm). I'm still confused on what ability Jeremy had himself, though its been theorized to be the shapeshifting face we see in the elevator; But Nicholas seemed to have some unique connection to his ring, maybe he could channel his blood-boiling ability with it; Rex had some form of astral projection; Hannah could shapeshift and control fire/heat; The Rowe brothers seemed to each posses an individual gift as well, although we don't see Brendan's; Gavin (From the future), not certain if his three-eye and light ray is an individual ability, but if we're to assume he's apart of a "breed", then maybe, like The Collectors, it's a rare power for a group of individuals. Matthew of course goes without saying, but he was the first one we're told has a "gift". We're not told or shown what other powers Jane had from "The Painted World", but she did light the painting on fire. Malcom was speculated to have x-ray vision, as that's how he read the painting and was trapped. The Collectors, like I mentioned with Gavin, had unique abilities, and although both collectors had them, it's assumed to be a rare and unique power. Anton
had glamouring, and Dragon could fly & breath fire. Afterwhich, no other warlocks have unique abilities.

I really prefer when villains all have their own unique ability and not all the same. Shimmering, blinking, fireballs and energy balls are a snooze to see all the time. 

I also liked Jeremy blending into the human world to get his targets. It's much more interesting. I did like the set-up of the Brotherhood of the Thorn having connections in the city. 

The show should've leaned more heavily into warlocks being the opposite/counterparts to witches. 

Jul 25, 2023 15:39:42 GMT -5 zachary said:

Warlock “Breeds”: Why do you think “Breeds” of warlocks were introduced into the show, and how do you feel about what we've seen? 

Especially for them to have one introductory episode only to never be seen again. We have The Collectors, Familiar Hunters, Familiar Warlocks, a Dragon Warlock, and a Three-Eyed Warlock from the future– In my opinion, that completely botched warlocks.. If they’re going to have breeds and such, which differ from the factions we saw in S4, they may as well have just been breeds of demons...

I didn't like any of these warlocks. As far as I concerned they're all demons. The writers had no freaking idea what they were doing. Whoever was keeping track of the lore did a poor job. 

Evil Witches Vs Warlock name debacle:

We’re told Tuatha, P. Russell, and the Stillmans are “Evil witches”, as opposed to “Warlocks”, why do you think there’s a difference between evil witches and warlocks, if there’s any at all. Do you think the show made this distinguishment because they didn’t want to call them “Warlocks” due to it’s masculin derivation?

I never got the evil witches lore. They should've just been former witches who turned into warlocks. It's way simple. 

You could be right in why they didn't call them warlocks. We did have a lack of female warlocks on the show in general. We had them but not enough.

Storylines; What do you think we could’ve gotten, and what do you think we were robbed of?:

As far as what we got, I feel like the show did a good job with giving Jeremy a long-term plan, dating Piper, making him more of a menacing and shocking revelation and execution (Even if he was obvious to some). I heavily appreciate Rex & Hannah having an 8-episode arc in-which the main antagonists are warlocks; including “The Witch Is Back”, which had Matthew, an incredibly powerful warlock. Aside from them, Eames, Zile, Bacarra, and Devil & his faction were the only warlock threats that actually created stakes, which feels lackluster of a number for an 8-season show.

I think we could’ve gotten more emphasis on how powerful and dangerous warlocks are. I love that demons are a threat, but I wish warlocks received that same level of attention that most demons (especially earlier seasons) were given. Like we saw with Bacarra, he was able to blink into the attic, perform Tuatha’s spell that separates witches from their powers, and vanquish 2/3 of The Charmed Ones; we should’ve seen the sisters practice a way to protect the house from that, like they learned how to stop warlocks from blinking with potions.

I would've been fine if Warlocks were the primary threat, but demons were still around just not the major players. It could've been better if the show pulled from Buffy and Supernatural with having a different big bad each season. 

Apart from Rex/Hannah we got no other big bad for a season that were warlocks. They were always demon of the week. 

Tuatha should've been the big bad for S2 or a villain for at least 3-5 episodes. The Rowe Coven/Matthew for an arc. 

We were robbed of another, deeper storyline that Brendan had from the Rowe coven; A warlock that wants to be good, but by nature, is evil. If that would’ve been repetitive, then I think a warlock trying to become the source, climbing the ladder over a season– would’ve been a great arc.

You made me realize this could've been done later in the series with Cole if he was a warlock not a half-demon. 

But I do like a warlock trying to become the source climbing the ladders. 

Out of all the warlocks, who was your favorite? Who was your least favorite? Who should’ve had more screen-time, and who should’ve had less? *list of warlocks in comment below*

Matthew is my favorite. Who I wish had more screen time. Sometimes I wish he was the Source. He was powerful enough. Or the show continues the lore or warlocks and just has the Rowe Coven be to Matthew what the Charmed Ones are to Melinda, the beginning of the line of evil Charmed Ones. 

Others include: Jeremy, Nicholas, Rex, Devlin, Bacarra

* I also want to note that I noticed it's been stated that Warlocks were the main antagonists of S1, and while I agree that they're predominately featured on S1, S1 actually held a decent balance between its antagonists; 6 episodes for demons, 6 episodes for warlocks, and 10 episodes for miscellaneous--(like mythological creatures, darklighters, evil witches, ghosts, or humans).
S2 had 11 episodes for demons, 4 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.
*I was initially just wanting to see the comparison between 1 & 2, but ultimately did it for the other seasons as well. Warlocks are entirely eliminated by S7.
S3 had 12 episodes for demons, 3 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.
S4 had 12 episodes for demons, 1 episode for warlocks, and 9 episodes for miscellaneous.
S5 had 17 episodes for demons, 2 episodes for warlocks, and 3 episodes for miscellaneous.
S6 had 9 episodes for demons, 1 episode for warlocks, and 13 episodes for miscellaneous.
S7 had 16 episodes for demons, 0 episodes for warlocks, and 6 episodes for miscellaneous.
S8 had 15 episodes for demons, 0 episodes for warlocks, and 7 episodes for miscellaneous.

[/quote]
Thank-you Zachary for this post. I enjoyed reading all your insights and giving me more thoughts about why the show did a poor job with the lore.

[Aaeiyn]

I do have a lot to say about this topic but for now I want to point out something that was not mentioned, yet.

Both the Unaired Pilot and Aired Pilot explain Warlocks, differently.

Unaired Pilot
Written by
Constance M. Burge
Julie Hess (according to imdb, anyway, though her name never appears when watching the Unaired Pilot, but I digress)

Directed by
Bruce Seth Green

In the Unaired Pilot, "Warlock" is any gender. This would include "bad witches", as they'd be known as "Warlocks", if they're stealing powers.


Aired Pilot
Written by
Constance M. Burge
(no Julie Hess, either even according to imdb)

Directed by
John T. Kretchmer

In the Aired Pilot, it explains that EITHER "bad witches" OR Warlocks can "steal powers". Basically, TWO different groups can "steal powers" vs just one via "Warlocks"

---

It's important to note the only name consistent between the Unaired Pilot and Aired Pilot is Constance M. Burge. Julie Hess is missing, and BOTH pilots changed directors, and directors CAN influence the script, as well.

Just wanted to point that out.

---

That being said and done, should've gone the Unaired Pilot route. Would've been more progressive that gender doesn't matter to one being a "Warlock". The only two alleged female Warlocks are Hannah and Jane.

I guess, at some point between S2E3 "The Painted World" (Written by Constance M. Burge, BTW) and S2E6 "That Old Black Magic", we're back to Gender Roles of females being "evil witches" via Tuatha, Stillman Sisters, (S6E11 "Witchstock") Robin, etc.

Though, (S4E9 "Muse to My Ears") Devlin's faction had unnamed female Warlocks, but if they were more on the frontline, probably be classified as "evil witches".

[Aaeiyn]

To add, then the concept of demons just took over and "stealing powers" was no longer really a goal but this battle of "good vs evil".

[Aaeiyn]

Now, that I don't have a baby, flailing around in my arms, I can type properly, at my computer, too and not on my phone LOL

Anyway, I do NOT like the idea of "Warlock Breeds". As much as I love S2E7 "They're Everwhere", I do NOT classify the Collectors as Warlocks, despite the show calling them a "Warlock Breed". They seem more demonic than anything else, as they don't kill (though, their victims become living vegetables and not really die but whatever) to obtain witch powers. In fact, the only list of victims, on their list are regular 'ol humans that are non-magical. They behaved similarly to the Seekers in S3E16 "Death Takes a Halliwell" and yet, the Seekers are NOT Warlocks but Demons!

Same with Dragon Warlock who wasn't looking to kill the Charmed Ones for their powers. He was mostly just wanting them dead to make a name for himself.

That being said, I don't like the idea of Warlocks "working for the Source", either. At least, Rex and Hannah were. Same with S4E9 "Muse to My Ears" Warlocks via Devlin and his faction. They're supposed to be humans disassociated from the Underworld (which is demonic territory) and just going "bad". When did the Source / the Underworld become at play, here? I guess Eames, too but whatever.

Speaking of Humans that "go bad", why are Warlocks immortal? And, in S2E7 "They're Everywhere" Warlocks (allegedly) don't bleed, but Jeremy definitely bled. IDK, even S1-S2 didn't know WTH they were doing with "Warlocks" until Kern's takeover, in S3 and just practically did away with the Warlock concept almost (not completely) entirely, where we began getting more human looking demons compared to S1-S2.

[greta]

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

Jul 25, 2023 15:39:42 GMT -5 zachary said:

Personally, I think it could’ve been better than what it was, and I feel as though they were under-developed post-S2.

Warlocks obtaining any being's power, does it muddy the waters and make warlocks too overpowered?

We’re to assume that warlocks obtain abilities from witches, but S3’s “Blinded By the Whitelighter” shows us that warlocks, or at least Eames, was able to obtain powers he stole from a whitelighter.. So warlocks don’t just steal powers from witches, but whitelighters and other good counterparts, yeah? I think we even saw a warlock steal a demon’s abilities in the "Crimes and Witchdemeanors" episode. (Upon further research) Devlin and his warlock pal did kill a demon for his shapeshifting power in "Muse to My Ears", and it was mentioned by Cole and Leo that there was a law against warlocks stealing the powers of demons. It is considered treason and punishable by death. – So warlocks can, in fact, obtain powers from demons, as well.

Warlocks and Witches - both come with a unique gift.. Though we never see it after season 2: Do you think its because  they may have become overpowered?

I think one thing that I loved about warlocks, was that they had a unique ability on their own, which could aid them in killing witches (At least before blinking and fireball/energyballs became a norm). I'm still confused on what ability Jeremy had himself, though its been theorized to be the shapeshifting face we see in the elevator; But Nicholas seemed to have some unique connection to his ring, maybe he could channel his blood-boiling ability with it; Rex had some form of astral projection; Hannah could shapeshift and control fire/heat; The Rowe brothers seemed to each posses an individual gift as well, although we don't see Brendan's; Gavin (From the future), not certain if his three-eye and light ray is an individual ability, but if we're to assume he's apart of a "breed", then maybe, like The Collectors, it's a rare power for a group of individuals. Matthew of course goes without saying, but he was the first one we're told has a "gift". We're not told or shown what other powers Jane had from "The Painted World", but she did light the painting on fire. Malcom was speculated to have x-ray vision, as that's how he read the painting and was trapped. The Collectors, like I mentioned with Gavin, had unique abilities, and although both collectors had them, it's assumed to be a rare and unique power. Anton
had glamouring, and Dragon could fly & breath fire. Afterwhich, no other warlocks have unique abilities.

I really prefer when villains all have their own unique ability and not all the same. Shimmering, blinking, fireballs and energy balls are a snooze to see all the time. 

I also liked Jeremy blending into the human world to get his targets. It's much more interesting. I did like the set-up of the Brotherhood of the Thorn having connections in the city. 

The show should've leaned more heavily into warlocks being the opposite/counterparts to witches. 

I found the warlocks interesting. They had so much great mythology but they continue to mix and change things often. It's that bad that on the podcast Drew continues to call half the warlocks on the show demons in so many podcasts.

Sadly demons are what the show primarily focused on long-term and was the major adversities.

Like you said the idea of warlocks being closely associated with the human world should've given them a bigger edge over demons who all come from the underworld and they pointed out because of Cole's human half it allowed him to blend in better.

The concept of witches and warlocks was a very interesting concept that its clear as day Kern didn't care for them. He cared more for demons, elders, whitelighters and magical creatures. I don't think he cared enough about the mythology of warlocks or even expanding the mythology of witches.

Jul 25, 2023 15:39:42 GMT -5 zachary said:

Warlock “Breeds”: Why do you think “Breeds” of warlocks were introduced into the show, and how do you feel about what we've seen? 

Especially for them to have one introductory episode only to never be seen again. We have The Collectors, Familiar Hunters, Familiar Warlocks, a Dragon Warlock, and a Three-Eyed Warlock from the future– In my opinion, that completely botched warlocks.. If they’re going to have breeds and such, which differ from the factions we saw in S4, they may as well have just been breeds of demons...

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like any of these warlocks. As far as I concerned they're all demons. The writers had no freaking idea what they were doing. Whoever was keeping track of the lore did a poor job.

Very poorly. They had no idea. The show had a terrible gasp on their own mythology. Nobody was keeping check on all the rules.

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never got the evil witches lore. They should've just been former witches who turned into warlocks. It's way simple. 

You could be right in why they didn't call them warlocks. We did have a lack of female warlocks on the show in general. We had them but not enough.

[/div]

I agree. Evil Witches should've just been warlocks who like Aaeiyn pointed out the unaired pilot said: A "Warlock" is any gender. This would include "bad witches", as they'd be known as "Warlocks", if they're stealing powers. I very much prefer this concept. It's much more interesting.

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I would've been fine if Warlocks were the primary threat, but demons were still around just not the major players. It could've been better if the show pulled from Buffy and Supernatural with having a different big bad each season. 

Apart from Rex/Hannah we got no other big bad for a season that were warlocks. They were always demon of the week. 

Tuatha should've been the big bad for S2 or a villain for at least 3-5 episodes. The Rowe Coven/Matthew for an arc.

[/div]

It sucks they had so much great concepts, but a good idea on Charmed always went to waste.

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

You made me realize this could've been done later in the series with Cole if he was a warlock not a half-demon. 

But I do like a warlock trying to become the source climbing the ladders.

If Warlocks were a much bigger part of the lore, perhaps he would've been. But I just don't think it ever would've happened under Kern.

Out of all the warlocks, who was your favorite? Who was your least favorite? Who should’ve had more screen-time, and who should’ve had less? *list of warlocks in comment below*

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

Matthew is my favorite. Who I wish had more screen time. Sometimes I wish he was the Source. He was powerful enough. Or the show continues the lore or warlocks and just has the Rowe Coven be to Matthew what the Charmed Ones are to Melinda, the beginning of the line of evil Charmed Ones. 

Others include: Jeremy, Nicholas, Rex, Devlin, Bacarra

That could've been a fun story-arc to see. Keeper, maybe you should write a story about that, considering how much you appear to  be a fan of Melinda/Matthew and that episode.

Jul 26, 2023 11:27:36 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Now, that I don't have a baby, flailing around in my arms, I can type properly, at my computer, too and not on my phone LOL

Anyway, I do NOT like the idea of "Warlock Breeds". As much as I love S2E7 "They're Everwhere", I do NOT classify the Collectors as Warlocks, despite the show calling them a "Warlock Breed". They seem more demonic than anything else, as they don't kill (though, their victims become living vegetables and not really die but whatever) to obtain witch powers. In fact, the only list of victims, on their list are regular 'ol humans that are non-magical. They behaved similarly to the Seekers in S3E16 "Death Takes a Halliwell" and yet, the Seekers are NOT Warlocks but Demons!

Same with Dragon Warlock who wasn't looking to kill the Charmed Ones for their powers. He was mostly just wanting them dead to make a name for himself.

That being said, I don't like the idea of Warlocks "working for the Source", either. At least, Rex and Hannah were. Same with S4E9 "Muse to My Ears" Warlocks via Devlin and his faction. They're supposed to be humans disassociated from the Underworld (which is demonic territory) and just going "bad". When did the Source / the Underworld become at play, here? I guess Eames, too but whatever.

Speaking of Humans that "go bad", why are Warlocks immortal? And, in S2E7 "They're Everywhere" Warlocks (allegedly) don't bleed, but Jeremy definitely bled. IDK, even S1-S2 didn't know WTH they were doing with "Warlocks" until Kern's takeover, in S3 and just practically did away with the Warlock concept almost (not completely) entirely, where we began getting more human looking demons compared to S1-S2.

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

I didn't like all those didn't breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

Jul 26, 2023 6:37:39 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I do have a lot to say about this topic but for now I want to point out something that was not mentioned, yet.

Both the Unaired Pilot and Aired Pilot explain Warlocks, differently.

Unaired Pilot
Written by
Constance M. Burge
Julie Hess (according to imdb, anyway, though her name never appears when watching the Unaired Pilot, but I digress)

Directed by
Bruce Seth Green

In the Unaired Pilot, "Warlock" is any gender. This would include "bad witches", as they'd be known as "Warlocks", if they're stealing powers.


Aired Pilot
Written by
Constance M. Burge
(no Julie Hess, either even according to imdb)

Directed by
John T. Kretchmer

In the Aired Pilot, it explains that EITHER "bad witches" OR Warlocks can "steal powers". Basically, TWO different groups can "steal powers" vs just one via "Warlocks"

---

It's important to note the only name consistent between the Unaired Pilot and Aired Pilot is Constance M. Burge. Julie Hess is missing, and BOTH pilots changed directors, and directors CAN influence the script, as well.

Just wanted to point that out.

---

That being said and done, should've gone the Unaired Pilot route. Would've been more progressive that gender doesn't matter to one being a "Warlock". The only two alleged female Warlocks are Hannah and Jane.

I guess, at some point between S2E3 "The Painted World" (Written by Constance M. Burge, BTW) and S2E6 "That Old Black Magic", we're back to Gender Roles of females being "evil witches" via Tuatha, Stillman Sisters, (S6E11 "Witchstock") Robin, etc.

Though, (S4E9 "Muse to My Ears") Devlin's faction had unnamed female Warlocks, but if they were more on the frontline, probably be classified as "evil witches".

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches. I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

Jul 26, 2023 7:57:29 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

To add, then the concept of demons just took over and "stealing powers" was no longer really a goal but this battle of "good vs evil".

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I really prefer when villains all have their own unique ability and not all the same. Shimmering, blinking, fireballs and energy balls are a snooze to see all the time. 

I also liked Jeremy blending into the human world to get his targets. It's much more interesting. I did like the set-up of the Brotherhood of the Thorn having connections in the city. 

The show should've leaned more heavily into warlocks being the opposite/counterparts to witches. 

I found the warlocks interesting. They had so much great mythology but they continue to mix and change things often. It's that bad that on the podcast Drew continues to call half the warlocks on the show demons in so many podcasts.

Sadly demons are what the show primarily focused on long-term and was the major adversities.

Like you said the idea of warlocks being closely associated with the human world should've given them a bigger edge over demons who all come from the underworld and they pointed out because of Cole's human half it allowed him to blend in better.

The concept of witches and warlocks was a very interesting concept that its clear as day Kern didn't care for them. He cared more for demons, elders, whitelighters and magical creatures. I don't think he cared enough about the mythology of warlocks or even expanding the mythology of witches.

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

I don't dislike demons. I just find the idea of warlocks had so much potential. Maybe demons should've been used the way they ended up using warlocks. Letting them be a bit more of a mystery and in the shadows like Maslin was and even Javna had a human form to blend into the human world. 

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

quote source="/post/513672/thread" author="greta" timestamp="1690402515"]Very poorly. They had no idea. The show had a terrible gasp on their own mythology. Nobody was keeping check on all the rules. 

It's too bad.

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never got the evil witches lore. They should've just been former witches who turned into warlocks. It's way simple. 

You could be right in why they didn't call them warlocks. We did have a lack of female warlocks on the show in general. We had them but not enough.

I agree. Evil Witches should've just been warlocks who like Aaeiyn pointed out the unaired pilot said: A "Warlock" is any gender. This would include "bad witches", as they'd be known as "Warlocks", if they're stealing powers. I very much prefer this concept. It's much more interesting.

Jul 25, 2023 17:06:10 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I would've been fine if Warlocks were the primary threat, but demons were still around just not the major players. It could've been better if the show pulled from Buffy and Supernatural with having a different big bad each season. 

Apart from Rex/Hannah we got no other big bad for a season that were warlocks. They were always demon of the week. 

Tuatha should've been the big bad for S2 or a villain for at least 3-5 episodes. The Rowe Coven/Matthew for an arc.

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

It sucks they had so much great concepts, but a good idea on Charmed always went to waste.

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 


[/div]

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

If Warlocks were a much bigger part of the lore, perhaps he would've been. But I just don't think it ever would've happened under Kern.

Probably right about that. 

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

That could've been a fun story-arc to see. Keeper, maybe you should write a story about that, considering how much you appear to  be a fan of Melinda/Matthew and that episode.

I just might have to do that one day. 

Jul 26, 2023 11:27:36 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Now, that I don't have a baby, flailing around in my arms, I can type properly, at my computer, too and not on my phone LOL

Anyway, I do NOT like the idea of "Warlock Breeds". As much as I love S2E7 "They're Everwhere", I do NOT classify the Collectors as Warlocks, despite the show calling them a "Warlock Breed". They seem more demonic than anything else, as they don't kill (though, their victims become living vegetables and not really die but whatever) to obtain witch powers. In fact, the only list of victims, on their list are regular 'ol humans that are non-magical. They behaved similarly to the Seekers in S3E16 "Death Takes a Halliwell" and yet, the Seekers are NOT Warlocks but Demons!

Same with Dragon Warlock who wasn't looking to kill the Charmed Ones for their powers. He was mostly just wanting them dead to make a name for himself.



Speaking of Humans that "go bad", why are Warlocks immortal? And, in S2E7 "They're Everywhere" Warlocks (allegedly) don't bleed, but Jeremy definitely bled. IDK, even S1-S2 didn't know WTH they were doing with "Warlocks" until Kern's takeover, in S3 and just practically did away with the Warlock concept almost (not completely) entirely, where we began getting more human looking demons compared to S1-S2.

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I didn't like all those didn't breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

Me, too. 

Jul 26, 2023 11:27:36 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

That being said, I don't like the idea of Warlocks "working for the Source", either. At least, Rex and Hannah were. Same with S4E9 "Muse to My Ears" Warlocks via Devlin and his faction. They're supposed to be humans disassociated from the Underworld (which is demonic territory) and just going "bad". When did the Source / the Underworld become at play, here? I guess Eames, too but whatever.

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time. It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

But what I found interesting is in S2, the Demon Litvack had a crypt. In S3 the Demonic Academy was in the Underworld with a portal in the lift taking you down to the Underworld.

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2. I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

[Aaeiyn]

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;P

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I didn't like all those breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

Totally.

Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches.

I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

Maybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

Now, I'm starting to see the confusion.

I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 

So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode.

BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

Right, I'm just so busy xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

Right? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time.

in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

Yeah, I can agree there.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2.

The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

It's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

[Aaeiyn]

I knew I forgot something. I never actually answered this question LOL

Jul 25, 2023 15:39:42 GMT -5 zachary said:

Out of all the warlocks, who was your favorite? Who was your least favorite? Who should’ve had more screen-time, and who should’ve had less?

Favorite
Toss up between Matthew Tate & Eames.

Least Favorite
Jeremy (IKR?)

Should've Had More Screen Time
Familiar Hunter (just some more background story)

[Andrew]

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;P

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I didn't like all those breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

Totally.

Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

It really does make one wish that there had been someone on staff to keep track of the lore. The only way I can make that work for myself is to headcanon that blinking used to be a power that some witches had, but over time warlocks hunted them all down and killed them for it, so now anyone left who can Blink would, by definition, most likely have to be a warlock. But I suspect even that’s putting way more thought into this than the showrunners did (as demonstrated by “Bride & Gloom” having the Charmed Ones suddenly manifesting the ability upon their conversion to evil… a conversion that did not repeat when Phoebe was married in a similar dark ceremony, but that’s neither here nor there).

Also, you can add the Rowe coven to the list of warlocks who couldn’t Blink.

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches.

I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

Maybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

Now, I'm starting to see the confusion.

I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

Originally, I think warlocks were witches who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers. However, as the Rowe coven showed, you could also be born a warlock. Later came the specific breeds… You know what might have made that make some kind of sense? If those were more like warlocks in the D&D sense of the term: people who had made a pact with some kind of supernatural entity (obviously an evil one, in this setting). Their powers would all be the same because they were coming from the same source. Then you could have a recurring antagonist faction that you wouldn’t have to keep coming up with backstory for every episode, and you could maybe even end the season with the Charmed Ones going up against the demonic patron directly. Heck, you could even have some of the (surviving) now powerless minions seeking revenge on the Charmed Ones for all they’d lost.

But I guess that would have been a bit too nuanced for this show. Wouldn’t want anyone to start asking if it was possible for warlocks to be steered away from evil, after all. To be saved. The closest the show ever came to doing something like that was with Brendan Rowe, who was pointedly half-mortal (I could be wrong, but was this the first time they ever really made the distinction between witches/warlocks and regular “mortal” humans?), and even then it was only possible if he completely renounced his powers and devoted himself to God. There could be “evil witches”, but no good warlocks. Once you did anything that smacked of embracing evil - even if that something was just not pulling a Brendan, or trying to use your powers for good - you were irredeemable. (Unless, of course, you were Phoebe. Then you could be forgiven for anything up to and including multiple counts of murder.) Why have our leading ladies have to struggle with the idea that they might have to kill people to save innocent lives, when you can make the antagonists cartoonishly evil, so flat and one-dimensional that everyone will cheer when they’re killed vanquished, and our heroines can sleep soundly at night?

I swear, the writing room had one of these sitting on a desk:

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

Honestly, that’s only a joke because for it to be true would have required someone on staff keeping track of this sort of thing, and Charmed, much as I may like it, did not pay attention to things like continuity. However, that does still remain my preferred explanation for the sheer abundance of black-clad, fireball-throwing idiots. 😎

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 

So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode.

BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

Right, I'm just so busy xD

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

Right? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time.

in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

Yeah, I can agree there.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2.

The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

It's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

Ooo, now that’d be interesting! I’d imagine a fair number of innocents would have to die first to make the witches even consider agreeing to a joint mission like that, let alone actually do so, so there already would be more stakes than the show usually had. There’d be tension and drama, wondering when (not if) the warlocks would try and stab them in the back, if anyone of the warlocks would sell them out to the Underworld (the term warlock originally meant “oathbreaker”, I believe) what would happen if they actually succeeded. You could even stretch it out over several episodes by having the ritual needed to close the gates require several unique, hard to find artifacts, and the demons would figure out what they were doing pretty quickly and thus move to prevent their acquisition, meaning they couldn’t split up to get them all at once, as whatever defenders were put in place would require a not inconsiderable amount of power to deal with. You wanna switch things up even more? Have the inevitable betrayal come from the witches’ side, from someone like Billie whom the demons could make an offer (her sister’s life in exchange for keeping them informed of what the witches and warlocks were doing) that she didn’t dare refuse.

I’d rather not bring the Source into it, though, unless this was the final season. As I’ve said elsewhere, when you have a character named “The Source of All Evil”, that is your final boss.

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

And now I’ve made it worse. Oops? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

KEEPER: I hope you all don't mind. Aaeiyn, Andrew, greta I'm finding it so difficult to reply to everything. There are just WAY too many quotes. I'm going to do it this way. If you all don't like it, I'll switch back. It'll just be easier for me to work out who said what.

---

GRETA: I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;P

KEEPER: The navigation on a phone is too hard to try to do long posts. I'm with you two!

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

 GRETA: I didn't like all those breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

AAEIYN: Totally.

KEEPER: Agreed!

------------------------------

AAEIYN: Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

KEEPER: It seemed they had no idea what they even wanted with warlocks. I'm sure that's because Kern kept pushing for more demons. But then again, It's interesting that Sheryl wrote the first episode that mentions the Source by name in 'Give Me a Sign' and mentions him somewhat in 'The Witch is Back' or I guess you could say it was the previous episode too by what Hannah said via the Truth Spell. 

Thanks for the assessment on when they blinked and when they didn't. 

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

AAEIYN: Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.

KEEPER: Sadly I doubt they did. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches.

AAEIYN: I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xD

KEEPER: So sorry for confusing you. I should've been more clear Bad Witch = Warlock. Just anyone who goes bad is a warlock. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

AAEIYN: Maybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

KEEPER: That might be why they put her in the bad witch category. Good point!


-------------------------

AAEIYN: That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xD

KEEPER: Turning into a Banshee seems like more of a punishment in a way.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

AAEIYN: Now, I'm starting to see the confusion.

KEEPER: Again, sorry for the confusion. 

-------------------------

AAEIYN: I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

KEEPER: That makes sense. I think we got the warlocks and evil witches categories sorted some more or figured out the writers logic. I would love to hear from any of them explaining the behind the scenes and writing insights. Maybe the podcast will, but they are already six episodes short of wrapping S2. So maybe not. 

--------------------------------------

AAEIYN: That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

KEEPER: Period! That's how I'd have preferred it. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

AAEIYN: I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄

KEEPER: If you tried to quiz me on any of the demons in S5-S8, that apart from Zankou I couldn't tell you what made half of them unique. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

AAEIYN: IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

KEEPER: That's an interesting point. I guess they could've, but its too hard to tell.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.

KEEPER: Thanks for reminding me. So he has two under his belt. Still something, but not much at all. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

AAEIYN: Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

KEEPER: So he's been there since day 1. Thanks. I really need to pay more attention to the credits.  Unless you count the Unaired Pilot and the period BEFORE the show was ordered to series. Since Something Wicca This Way Comes would've been the reworked pilot with Alyssa. But you're probably right he was already hired already. LOL guess I was hoping we had even a small window of time where he wasn't attached to Charmed in some capacity.

-----------------------------

AAEIYN: I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

KEEPER: He wasn't a Joss Whedon who stood up to the WB. I do recall a story where he demanded they show a kiss between two female characters or he was going to pack up his office. 

I'll always forever hate how things went down with Shannen's firing. Easily the worst decision ever made on the show period.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: 'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

KEEPER: I'll check it out!

------------------------

AAEIYN: But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

KEEPER: Nope! He didn't care unless he was getting paid.

-------------------------

AAEIYN: And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.

KEEPER: I don't either know the difference. But the Network really has lots of say. Sometimes I wonder if the show would've been better off on another Network. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

AAEIYN: Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

KEEPER: LOL that's a funny joke that I could see working. But I'd find it hard to believe a demon like Barbas was a graduate given how ancient he was. But, I disgress.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 

AAEIYN: So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode. BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

KEEPER: That's true. I see you're point, there's expanding and then there's dragging things on too much.



AAEIYN: Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔

KEEPER: That would've been a good way to bring those two back. I do like Ava and Enola. I secretly have a out there/random shipping with Phoebe/Enola. I don't think anybody sees it but me. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: Right, I'm just so busy xD

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

AAEIYN: Right? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

KEEPER: Neat theory!

------------------------------

AAEIYN: But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".

KEEPER: *nods*

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time.

AAEIYN: in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.

KEEPER: So they might've had some idea of the Source as far back as S1. Just not exactly who he was but the idea of a leader.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

AAEIYN: Yeah, I can agree there.

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2.

AAEIYN: The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOL

KEEPER: You nailed it! And they set up so much, but personally they really turned it to real crap in S4. They really didn't need to wrap up all what they were building towards and setting up from S1-S2 with a pretty weak climax in S4. The battle with the Source in S4 was so poorly executed. I'm not a fan of Charmed and Dangerous. I know how much that episode is beloved. But I find it was a let-down. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

AAEIYN: It's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

KEEPER: I can see that with Rodriguez. After all Rex and Hannah died before they had time to report back to the Source about what they found out. But I tend to believe that The Source already knew since as you pointed out Tempus already knew. 

But the way Rodriguez talked it sounded like the demonic community were in contact with each other when he mentions his colleagues continued to turn up missing or dead. It could've been fun to get a flashback episode diving into the history of the demonic world. 


--------------------------

AAEIYN: And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.

KEEPER: Yeah, I can see that all being in the works then. I'm sure they were already setting up Cole by late S2, because 'Astral Monkey' somewhat teases Phoebe getting a boyfriend soon with her little side-plot with the boyfriend list. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

AAEIYN: Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

KEEPER: No, you're all good. I'll have to say the same in return for mine. I'm going to town with this one.

It's why I divided my reply up this way. Because I was starting to forget who said what with all the quotes. 

Jul 26, 2023 22:10:12 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;PTotally.

Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

ANDREW: It really does make one wish that there had been someone on staff to keep track of the lore. The only way I can make that work for myself is to headcanon that blinking used to be a power that some witches had, but over time warlocks hunted them all down and killed them for it, so now anyone left who can Blink would, by definition, most likely have to be a warlock. But I suspect even that’s putting way more thought into this than the showrunners did (as demonstrated by “Bride & Gloom” having the Charmed Ones suddenly manifesting the ability upon their conversion to evil… a conversion that did not repeat when Phoebe was married in a similar dark ceremony, but that’s neither here nor there).

KEEPER: Don't I wish they did. Nobody was or else we wouldn't have Penny becoming "Penny Halliwell" after "Victor Halliwell". Nobody bothered to proof basic lore with names. How embarrassing. You'd think they'd have a bible with just the general family history. LOL 

That's an interesting point. Should Phoebe have become a Warlock when she married in a similar dark ceremony, or are we led to believe her carrying Cole's child mixed with the Seer's tonic and giving her demonic powers cancelled that and she's more demonic less warlock. 


--------------------------------

ANDREW: Also, you can add the Rowe coven to the list of warlocks who couldn’t Blink.

KEEPER: That's right! They didn't blink, did they. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xDMaybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xDNow, I'm starting to see the confusion.

I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

ANDREW: Originally, I think warlocks were witches who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers. However, as the Rowe coven showed, you could also be born a warlock. Later came the specific breeds… You know what might have made that make some kind of sense? If those were more like warlocks in the D&D sense of the term: people who had made a pact with some kind of supernatural entity (obviously an evil one, in this setting). Their powers would all be the same because they were coming from the same source. Then you could have a recurring antagonist faction that you wouldn’t have to keep coming up with backstory for every episode, and you could maybe even end the season with the Charmed Ones going up against the demonic patron directly. Heck, you could even have some of the (surviving) now powerless minions seeking revenge on the Charmed Ones for all they’d lost.

KEEPER: Interesting. So you mean more like pledging their allegiance to someone evil or even an oath to the Source for instance.

------------------------------------------------------

ANDREW: But I guess that would have been a bit too nuanced for this show. Wouldn’t want anyone to start asking if it was possible for warlocks to be steered away from evil, after all. To be saved. The closest the show ever came to doing something like that was with Brendan Rowe, who was pointedly half-mortal (I could be wrong, but was this the first time they ever really made the distinction between witches/warlocks and regular “mortal” humans?), and even then it was only possible if he completely renounced his powers and devoted himself to God. There could be “evil witches”, but no good warlocks. Once you did anything that smacked of embracing evil - even if that something was just not pulling a Brendan, or trying to use your powers for good - you were irredeemable. (Unless, of course, you were Phoebe. Then you could be forgiven for anything up to and including multiple counts of murder.) Why have our leading ladies have to struggle with the idea that they might have to kill people to save innocent lives, when you can make the antagonists cartoonishly evil, so flat and one-dimensional that everyone will cheer when they’re killed vanquished, and our heroines can sleep soundly at night?

KEEPER: I think Brendan Rowe was the first half-mortal and only half-mortal/half-warlock we had well until we got Cole. He was almost the beta version of Cole in a sense. But I just don't see Cole as a half-human/half-warlock renounced his powers and devoting himself to God. 

Well if a witch who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers, maybe the opposite could happen to redeem a warlock. Maybe one who saved an innocent becomes a witch. Unless someone can think of another way for redemption that doesn't involve  renounced their powers and devoting himself to God.

------------------------------------

ANDREW: I swear, the writing room had one of these sitting on a desk:



KEEPER: That made me laugh so much. 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

ANDREW: Honestly, that’s only a joke because for it to be true would have required someone on staff keeping track of this sort of thing, and Charmed, much as I may like it, did not pay attention to things like continuity. However, that does still remain my preferred explanation for the sheer abundance of black-clad, fireball-throwing idiots. 😎

KEEPER: 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode.

BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔Right, I'm just so busy xDRight? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.Yeah, I can agree there.The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOLIt's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

ANDREW: Ooo, now that’d be interesting! I’d imagine a fair number of innocents would have to die first to make the witches even consider agreeing to a joint mission like that, let alone actually do so, so there already would be more stakes than the show usually had. There’d be tension and drama, wondering when (not if) the warlocks would try and stab them in the back, if anyone of the warlocks would sell them out to the Underworld (the term warlock originally meant “oathbreaker”, I believe) what would happen if they actually succeeded. You could even stretch it out over several episodes by having the ritual needed to close the gates require several unique, hard to find artifacts, and the demons would figure out what they were doing pretty quickly and thus move to prevent their acquisition, meaning they couldn’t split up to get them all at once, as whatever defenders were put in place would require a not inconsiderable amount of power to deal with. You wanna switch things up even more? Have the inevitable betrayal come from the witches’ side, from someone like Billie whom the demons could make an offer (her sister’s life in exchange for keeping them informed of what the witches and warlocks were doing) that she didn’t dare refuse.

KEEPER: It has so many possibilities. LOL we're all coming up with far interesting concepts and making sense of the lore than the real writers did. 

-------------------------------------

ANDREW: I’d rather not bring the Source into it, though, unless this was the final season. As I’ve said elsewhere, when you have a character named “The Source of All Evil”, that is your final boss.

KEEPER: Agreed! I hated what they did with S4 so much. All that build-up and they had a predictable wrap-up with the Source. That made the last four seasons predictable when you already used your major threat. Although Zankou was fantastic, and maybe he should've been the Source. LOL

When exactly did the Source get the "All Evil" name. I don't remember when they started that. I always thought he was just 'The Source"?

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

ANDREW: And now I’ve made it worse. Oops? 🤷🏻‍♂️

KEEPER: Oops! You can add me to that list!

[Sandra]

KEEPER: I hope you all don't mind. Aaeiyn , Andrew , greta I'm finding it so difficult to reply to everything. There are just WAY too many quotes. I'm going to do it this way. If you all don't like it, I'll switch back. It'll just be easier for me to work out who said what.

SANDRA: Keeper, I like how you set this up. It makes it easier for me to jump in and comment on things now and read all the comments so far. I have time to reply now before I head out for some errands. But I can come back to it whenever adding in more if I wish.

---

GRETA: I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;P

KEEPER: The navigation on a phone is too hard to try to do long posts. I'm with you two!

SANDRA: *nods* That's true. I use my smartphone but only if I'm just browsing and reading or liking stuff. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

 GRETA: I didn't like all those breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

AAEIYN: Totally.

KEEPER: Agreed!

------------------------------

AAEIYN: Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

KEEPER: It seemed they had no idea what they even wanted with warlocks. I'm sure that's because Kern kept pushing for more demons. But then again, It's interesting that Sheryl wrote the first episode that mentions the Source by name in 'Give Me a Sign' and mentions him somewhat in 'The Witch is Back' or I guess you could say it was the previous episode too by what Hannah said via the Truth Spell. 

Thanks for the assessment on when they blinked and when they didn't.

SANDRA: No, they really didn't. It's too bad. I tend to think you need to look at Charmed as stand-alone enjoyment series. The show it meant to be watched in any order without thinking too much about what came before or after. There wasn't meant to be a consistency week to week.

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

AAEIYN: Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.

KEEPER: Sadly I doubt they did. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches.

AAEIYN: I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xD

KEEPER: So sorry for confusing you. I should've been more clear Bad Witch = Warlock. Just anyone who goes bad is a warlock. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

AAEIYN: Maybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

KEEPER: That might be why they put her in the bad witch category. Good point!


-------------------------

AAEIYN: That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xD

KEEPER: Turning into a Banshee seems like more of a punishment in a way.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

AAEIYN: Now, I'm starting to see the confusion.

KEEPER: Again, sorry for the confusion. 

-------------------------

AAEIYN: I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

KEEPER: That makes sense. I think we got the warlocks and evil witches categories sorted some more or figured out the writers logic. I would love to hear from any of them explaining the behind the scenes and writing insights. Maybe the podcast will, but they are already six episodes short of wrapping S2. So maybe not. 

--------------------------------------

AAEIYN: That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

KEEPER: Period! That's how I'd have preferred it. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

AAEIYN: I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄

KEEPER: If you tried to quiz me on any of the demons in S5-S8, that apart from Zankou I couldn't tell you what made half of them unique. LOL

SANDRA: Good luck even remembering half their names. Honestly Zankou was the only one I really liked best in S5-S8. He was an amazing villain, I almost wish they made him the Source of All Evil.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

AAEIYN: IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

KEEPER: That's an interesting point. I guess they could've, but its too hard to tell.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.

KEEPER: Thanks for reminding me. So he has two under his belt. Still something, but not much at all. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

AAEIYN: Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

KEEPER: So he's been there since day 1. Thanks. I really need to pay more attention to the credits.  Unless you count the Unaired Pilot and the period BEFORE the show was ordered to series. Since Something Wicca This Way Comes would've been the reworked pilot with Alyssa. But you're probably right he was already hired already. LOL guess I was hoping we had even a small window of time where he wasn't attached to Charmed in some capacity.

SANDRA: Actually according to his interview in the Book of Three, He said Connie created the show and  Spelling sold it as a presentation (The Unaired Pilot) and when that got picked up to series based on the presentation that's when they were looking for a showrunner to come in and help turn the pilot into a series. He interviewed for Charmed and not it based on being showrunner on other stuff.

Aaeiyn is right though, he has been executive producer since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes" though. But you are right in some way Keeper, that he wasn't part of the series in the early development stages when it was just a pilot or pilot presentation. But I still consider him part of the whole thing, the pre-series pick-up is more of less just getting the pilot ready to sell for upfronts. But I doubt they had much else planned beyond the basic premise.

-----------------------------

AAEIYN: I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

KEEPER: He wasn't a Joss Whedon who stood up to the WB. I do recall a story where he demanded they show a kiss between two female characters or he was going to pack up his office. 

I'll always forever hate how things went down with Shannen's firing. Easily the worst decision ever made on the show period.

SANDRA: Yeah The WB was the one in control of everything. They get the last say at the end of the day. It's why we didn't get a Christmas episode in S4, a script may have been written, but WB didn't want any Christmas episodes that year so the episode was not approved most likely. If you're interesting to read more on that its in the S4 sub-board.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: 'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

KEEPER: I'll check it out!

SANDRA: I did see that video. Proves that Kern was likely even below Aaron and Duke in the hierarchy. He never challenged them and put his foot down, likely only was a "Yes Man".

------------------------

AAEIYN: But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

KEEPER: Nope! He didn't care unless he was getting paid.


-------------------------

AAEIYN: And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.

KEEPER: I don't either know the difference. But the Network really has lots of say. Sometimes I wonder if the show would've been better off on another Network.

SANDRA: I do often wonder how things would've been done if it was somewhere else. But again, it might not make a difference. But it certainly would have less WB tropes. But I do wonder if it were on CBS, if because the show might cater more to adults and less on teens like the WB if we could've gotten lucky to see more of the S1 feel stick through past S1. But we'll never have any way to know. But its fun to speculate.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

AAEIYN: Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

KEEPER: LOL that's a funny joke that I could see working. But I'd find it hard to believe a demon like Barbas was a graduate given how ancient he was. But, I disgress.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 

AAEIYN: So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode. BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

KEEPER: That's true. I see you're point, there's expanding and then there's dragging things on too much.



AAEIYN: Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔

KEEPER: That would've been a good way to bring those two back. I do like Ava and Enola. I secretly have a out there/random shipping with Phoebe/Enola. I don't think anybody sees it but me. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: Right, I'm just so busy xD

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

AAEIYN: Right? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

KEEPER: Neat theory!

------------------------------

AAEIYN: But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".

KEEPER: *nods*

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time.

AAEIYN: in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.

KEEPER: So they might've had some idea of the Source as far back as S1. Just not exactly who he was but the idea of a leader.

SANDRA: A general idea, but I doubt they knew much more than that. Considering how much the Source changed episode to episode in appearance when he finally showed up, they had no idea and clearly didn't plan well.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

AAEIYN: Yeah, I can agree there.

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2.

AAEIYN: The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOL

KEEPER: You nailed it! And they set up so much, but personally they really turned it to real crap in S4. They really didn't need to wrap up all what they were building towards and setting up from S1-S2 with a pretty weak climax in S4. The battle with the Source in S4 was so poorly executed. I'm not a fan of Charmed and Dangerous. I know how much that episode is beloved. But I find it was a let-down. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

AAEIYN: It's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

KEEPER: I can see that with Rodriguez. After all Rex and Hannah died before they had time to report back to the Source about what they found out. But I tend to believe that The Source already knew since as you pointed out Tempus already knew. 

But the way Rodriguez talked it sounded like the demonic community were in contact with each other when he mentions his colleagues continued to turn up missing or dead. It could've been fun to get a flashback episode diving into the history of the demonic world. 


--------------------------

AAEIYN: And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.

KEEPER: Yeah, I can see that all being in the works then. I'm sure they were already setting up Cole by late S2, because 'Astral Monkey' somewhat teases Phoebe getting a boyfriend soon with her little side-plot with the boyfriend list. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

AAEIYN: Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

KEEPER: No, you're all good. I'll have to say the same in return for mine. I'm going to town with this one.

It's why I divided my reply up this way. Because I was starting to forget who said what with all the quotes. 

Jul 26, 2023 22:10:12 GMT -5 Andrew said:

ANDREW: It really does make one wish that there had been someone on staff to keep track of the lore. The only way I can make that work for myself is to headcanon that blinking used to be a power that some witches had, but over time warlocks hunted them all down and killed them for it, so now anyone left who can Blink would, by definition, most likely have to be a warlock. But I suspect even that’s putting way more thought into this than the showrunners did (as demonstrated by “Bride & Gloom” having the Charmed Ones suddenly manifesting the ability upon their conversion to evil… a conversion that did not repeat when Phoebe was married in a similar dark ceremony, but that’s neither here nor there).

KEEPER: Don't I wish they did. Nobody was or else we wouldn't have Penny becoming "Penny Halliwell" after "Victor Halliwell". Nobody bothered to proof basic lore with names. How embarrassing. You'd think they'd have a bible with just the general family history. LOL 

That's an interesting point. Should Phoebe have become a Warlock when she married in a similar dark ceremony, or are we led to believe her carrying Cole's child mixed with the Seer's tonic and giving her demonic powers cancelled that and she's more demonic less warlock. 


--------------------------------

ANDREW: Also, you can add the Rowe coven to the list of warlocks who couldn’t Blink.

KEEPER: That's right! They didn't blink, did they. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xDMaybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xDNow, I'm starting to see the confusion.

I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

ANDREW: Originally, I think warlocks were witches who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers. However, as the Rowe coven showed, you could also be born a warlock. Later came the specific breeds… You know what might have made that make some kind of sense? If those were more like warlocks in the D&D sense of the term: people who had made a pact with some kind of supernatural entity (obviously an evil one, in this setting). Their powers would all be the same because they were coming from the same source. Then you could have a recurring antagonist faction that you wouldn’t have to keep coming up with backstory for every episode, and you could maybe even end the season with the Charmed Ones going up against the demonic patron directly. Heck, you could even have some of the (surviving) now powerless minions seeking revenge on the Charmed Ones for all they’d lost.

KEEPER: Interesting. So you mean more like pledging their allegiance to someone evil or even an oath to the Source for instance.

------------------------------------------------------

ANDREW: But I guess that would have been a bit too nuanced for this show. Wouldn’t want anyone to start asking if it was possible for warlocks to be steered away from evil, after all. To be saved. The closest the show ever came to doing something like that was with Brendan Rowe, who was pointedly half-mortal (I could be wrong, but was this the first time they ever really made the distinction between witches/warlocks and regular “mortal” humans?), and even then it was only possible if he completely renounced his powers and devoted himself to God. There could be “evil witches”, but no good warlocks. Once you did anything that smacked of embracing evil - even if that something was just not pulling a Brendan, or trying to use your powers for good - you were irredeemable. (Unless, of course, you were Phoebe. Then you could be forgiven for anything up to and including multiple counts of murder.) Why have our leading ladies have to struggle with the idea that they might have to kill people to save innocent lives, when you can make the antagonists cartoonishly evil, so flat and one-dimensional that everyone will cheer when they’re killed vanquished, and our heroines can sleep soundly at night?

KEEPER: I think Brendan Rowe was the first half-mortal and only half-mortal/half-warlock we had well until we got Cole. He was almost the beta version of Cole in a sense. But I just don't see Cole as a half-human/half-warlock renounced his powers and devoting himself to God. 

Well if a witch who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers, maybe the opposite could happen to redeem a warlock. Maybe one who saved an innocent becomes a witch. Unless someone can think of another way for redemption that doesn't involve  renounced their powers and devoting himself to God.

------------------------------------

ANDREW: I swear, the writing room had one of these sitting on a desk:



KEEPER: That made me laugh so much. 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

ANDREW: Honestly, that’s only a joke because for it to be true would have required someone on staff keeping track of this sort of thing, and Charmed, much as I may like it, did not pay attention to things like continuity. However, that does still remain my preferred explanation for the sheer abundance of black-clad, fireball-throwing idiots. 😎

KEEPER: 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode.

BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔Right, I'm just so busy xDRight? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.Yeah, I can agree there.The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOLIt's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

ANDREW: Ooo, now that’d be interesting! I’d imagine a fair number of innocents would have to die first to make the witches even consider agreeing to a joint mission like that, let alone actually do so, so there already would be more stakes than the show usually had. There’d be tension and drama, wondering when (not if) the warlocks would try and stab them in the back, if anyone of the warlocks would sell them out to the Underworld (the term warlock originally meant “oathbreaker”, I believe) what would happen if they actually succeeded. You could even stretch it out over several episodes by having the ritual needed to close the gates require several unique, hard to find artifacts, and the demons would figure out what they were doing pretty quickly and thus move to prevent their acquisition, meaning they couldn’t split up to get them all at once, as whatever defenders were put in place would require a not inconsiderable amount of power to deal with. You wanna switch things up even more? Have the inevitable betrayal come from the witches’ side, from someone like Billie whom the demons could make an offer (her sister’s life in exchange for keeping them informed of what the witches and warlocks were doing) that she didn’t dare refuse.

KEEPER: It has so many possibilities. LOL we're all coming up with far interesting concepts and making sense of the lore than the real writers did. 

-------------------------------------

ANDREW: I’d rather not bring the Source into it, though, unless this was the final season. As I’ve said elsewhere, when you have a character named “The Source of All Evil”, that is your final boss.

KEEPER: Agreed! I hated what they did with S4 so much. All that build-up and they had a predictable wrap-up with the Source. That made the last four seasons predictable when you already used your major threat. Although Zankou was fantastic, and maybe he should've been the Source. LOL

When exactly did the Source get the "All Evil" name. I don't remember when they started that. I always thought he was just 'The Source"?

SANDRA: That's a good question. I have no idea when the "All Evil" name first got mentioned. It could've even been in S4 but I'm not sure. Maybe Charmed Again Part 2?

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

ANDREW: And now I’ve made it worse. Oops? 🤷🏻‍♂️

KEEPER: Oops! You can add me to that list![/quote]

[rebooted]

Wow - so much to read!

I would have liked if warlocks were bad witches - instead of there being good witches and bad witches.

When good witches use personal gain or are obsessed with power... they become warlocks

I would have liked for them to have the same mortality as human-witches to even out the power stealing otherwise they could live eternally? Is that right? or are they born via humans?

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

KEEPER: I hope you all don't mind. Aaeiyn , Andrew , greta I'm finding it so difficult to reply to everything. There are just WAY too many quotes. I'm going to do it this way. If you all don't like it, I'll switch back. It'll just be easier for me to work out who said what.

LATER: I added rebooted to this.

SANDRA: Keeper, I like how you set this up. It makes it easier for me to jump in and comment on things now and read all the comments so far. I have time to reply now before I head out for some errands. But I can come back to it whenever adding in more if I wish.

KEEPER: Thanks, Sandra. That's the reason I did it. So everyones comments are together without the confusion with all these quotes, and forgetting how said what. However to cut it down smaller as we go along, maybe If we all simply agree with what someone wrote, we can just add a smiley. When we “double-smiley”, we can delete that part of the conversation. That prevents this from growing too large.

---

GRETA: I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: I definitely prefer my computer over my phone, but I'm always busy and can only look on my phone, at times LOL It's why I tend to have shorter posts, whenever I'm on my phone compared to, when I'm on my computer ;P

KEEPER: The navigation on a phone is too hard to try to do long posts. I'm with you two!

SANDRA: *nods* That's true. I use my smartphone but only if I'm just browsing and reading or liking stuff. LOL

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

 GRETA: I didn't like all those breeds. The Dragon Warlock should've just been a Dragon Demon and nothing needs to be changed.

AAEIYN: Totally.

KEEPER: Agreed!

------------------------------

REBOOTED: I would have liked if warlocks were bad witches - instead of there being good witches and bad witches.

When good witches use personal gain or are obsessed with power... they become warlocks.

KEEPER: Nice, rebooted! That could work well.

-----------------------

REBOOTED: I would have liked for them to have the same mortality as human-witches to even out the power stealing otherwise they could live eternally? Is that right? or are they born via humans?

KEEPER: I never liked the immortality. It was something I didn't like with warlocks. I prefer them human and mortal like witches. Levels the playing field, because witches are not immortal.

---------------------

AAEIYN: Both the Collectors and Dragon Warlock should've just been demons. But, I guess the show really wanted "blinking" to be tied to Warlocks, even though not all Warlocks blinked LOL

List of Warlocks that did not blink: Jeremy, Nicolas, Jane & Dragon Warlock.

List of Warlocks that did blink: Matthew Tate, Malcolm, the Collectors, Eames, Zile, Devlin & his faction, Baccara, and (S6E11 "Witchstock") Nigel.

Even in Constance M. Burge's S2E3 "The Painted World", Malcolm began narrating how 'cause he's a Warlock, he can blink around. Though, Jane couldn't, and I guess we can say Phoebe ASSUMED she was a Warlock LOL

IK Melinda has that line in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" (which is written by Sheryl J. Anderson) that Melinda guesses Matthew may have copied blinking from another witch.

And, in S3E13 "Bride & Gloom" Leo even expresses as "blinking is linked to Warlocks", and that's the episode that Dantalian casted a spell to make the Charmed Ones "evil" which I guess made them Warlocks? LOL

KEEPER: It seemed they had no idea what they even wanted with warlocks. I'm sure that's because Kern kept pushing for more demons. But then again, It's interesting that Sheryl wrote the first episode that mentions the Source by name in 'Give Me a Sign' and mentions him somewhat in 'The Witch is Back' or I guess you could say it was the previous episode too by what Hannah said via the Truth Spell. 

Thanks for the assessment on when they blinked and when they didn't.

SANDRA: No, they really didn't. It's too bad. I tend to think you need to look at Charmed as stand-alone enjoyment series. The show it meant to be watched in any order without thinking too much about what came before or after. There wasn't meant to be a consistency week to week.

KEEPER: Yeah, that's one way of putting it. Spelling wanted the show to viewed in any order.

Jul 26, 2023 15:15:15 GMT -5 greta said:

I was never that nuts on them being immortal and not bleeding. I prefer the concept of warlocks just being the counterparts to witches, mortal and can die like witches.

AAEIYN: Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.

KEEPER: Sadly I doubt they did. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

They should've kept that from the unaired pilot. I need to re-watch it now. I really like the idea of warlocks being either male or female and it including bad witches.

AAEIYN: I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xD

KEEPER: So sorry for confusing you. I should've been more clear Bad Witch = Warlock. Just anyone who goes bad is a warlock. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I always found it weird that Tuatha was an evil witch. In my eyes she's a warlock and a former witch. I mean the Succubus was a former witch after all. 

AAEIYN: Maybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

KEEPER: That might be why they put her in the bad witch category. Good point!


-------------------------

AAEIYN: That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xD

KEEPER: Turning into a Banshee seems like more of a punishment in a way.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That makes me imagine the Charmed Ones are warlocks in the Morality Bites future. An idea I love so much. It just adds some weight that even the Charmed Ones can lose their way and become warlocks. 

AAEIYN: Now, I'm starting to see the confusion.

KEEPER: Again, sorry for the confusion. 

-------------------------

AAEIYN: I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

KEEPER: That makes sense. I think we got the warlocks and evil witches categories sorted some more or figured out the writers logic. I would love to hear from any of them explaining the behind the scenes and writing insights. Maybe the podcast will, but they are already six episodes short of wrapping S2. So maybe not. 

--------------------------------------

AAEIYN: That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

KEEPER: Period! That's how I'd have preferred it. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

 Demons just took over. I really wanted the show to dig deeper into the mythology of witches and warlocks. 

I'd have been fine if the Source was a warlock, and a warlock who had collected and stolen so many powers from witches over the years. 

AAEIYN: I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄

KEEPER: If you tried to quiz me on any of the demons in S5-S8, that apart from Zankou I couldn't tell you what made half of them unique. LOL

SANDRA: Good luck even remembering half their names. Honestly Zankou was the only one I really liked best in S5-S8. He was an amazing villain, I almost wish they made him the Source of All Evil.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's clear that Constance M. Burge didn't care for the concept of demons like Brad Kern did. She seemed to want a more grounded world where the main villains were warlocks or human threats. Brad Kern was more interested in a less grounded world with a stronger focus on the magical community with the Whitelighters, Elders, Demons, Up There and the Underworld. He didn't care about warlocks. I don't think any of his episodes had a warlock unless he was writing the episode with someone else. But I might be wrong. 

AAEIYN: IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

KEEPER: That's an interesting point. I guess they could've, but its too hard to tell.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.

KEEPER: Thanks for reminding me. So he has two under his belt. Still something, but not much at all. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I wonder if Connie and Brad had much more tension in the writing room going as far back as S1. It seemed like the concept of what they wanted was clashing, since the warlocks continued to change episode to episode. And they slowly kept increasing the demons slowly. By the time of S3 they were our major villains and warlocks slowly faded away. I've been listening to the Charmed podcast, and hearing Holly bring up how Connie's ideas were being tossed away and the odd episode she started to gain control, really has me feeling like she already was doomed at the start once Brad Kern was hired once the series was picked up to series to be showrunner. I feel like whatever she wanted the show to be like was never going to happen under him and Spelling.

AAEIYN: Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

KEEPER: So he's been there since day 1. Thanks. I really need to pay more attention to the credits.  Unless you count the Unaired Pilot and the period BEFORE the show was ordered to series. Since Something Wicca This Way Comes would've been the reworked pilot with Alyssa. But you're probably right he was already hired already. LOL guess I was hoping we had even a small window of time where he wasn't attached to Charmed in some capacity.

SANDRA: Actually according to his interview in the Book of Three, He said Connie created the show and  Spelling sold it as a presentation (The Unaired Pilot) and when that got picked up to series based on the presentation that's when they were looking for a showrunner to come in and help turn the pilot into a series. He interviewed for Charmed and not it based on being showrunner on other stuff.

Aaeiyn is right though, he has been executive producer since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes" though. But you are right in some way Keeper, that he wasn't part of the series in the early development stages when it was just a pilot or pilot presentation. But I still consider him part of the whole thing, the pre-series pick-up is more of less just getting the pilot ready to sell for upfronts. But I doubt they had much else planned beyond the basic premise.

KEEPER: Thanks, Sandra. I don't have the Book of Three. Interesting. Yeah he was very much there from the start just not the real start from when the concept got developed into a pilot.

-----------------------------

AAEIYN: I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

KEEPER: He wasn't a Joss Whedon who stood up to the WB. I do recall a story where he demanded they show a kiss between two female characters or he was going to pack up his office. 

I'll always forever hate how things went down with Shannen's firing. Easily the worst decision ever made on the show period.

SANDRA: Yeah The WB was the one in control of everything. They get the last say at the end of the day. It's why we didn't get a Christmas episode in S4, a script may have been written, but WB didn't want any Christmas episodes that year so the episode was not approved most likely. If you're interesting to read more on that its in the S4 sub-board.

KEEPER: I wish we got a Christmas episode. It would've been the first one without Prue. Also would this have been when Victor and Paige meet since I'd imagine he'd have come for Christmas to visit his daughters perhaps.

-------------------------------

AAEIYN: 'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

KEEPER: I'll check it out!

SANDRA: I did see that video. Proves that Kern was likely even below Aaron and Duke in the hierarchy. He never challenged them and put his foot down, likely only was a "Yes Man".

KEEPER: I checked it out, Aaeiyn. That was quite the shock. Didn't know that.

------------------------

AAEIYN: But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

KEEPER: Nope! He didn't care unless he was getting paid.


-------------------------

AAEIYN: And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.

KEEPER: I don't either know the difference. But the Network really has lots of say. Sometimes I wonder if the show would've been better off on another Network.

SANDRA: I do often wonder how things would've been done if it was somewhere else. But again, it might not make a difference. But it certainly would have less WB tropes. But I do wonder if it were on CBS, if because the show might cater more to adults and less on teens like the WB if we could've gotten lucky to see more of the S1 feel stick through past S1. But we'll never have any way to know. But its fun to speculate.

KEEPER: We'll never know. The only blessing is a bigger budget, since I heard The WB was a smaller network than the others. But a bigger budget doesn't mean much more than extra sets, more money for special effects and more actors. Maybe they'd have the money to film an episode in San Francisco or Salem.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I didn't like when demons started having human faces and stopped having demons looking demonic. 

AAEIYN: Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

KEEPER: LOL that's a funny joke that I could see working. But I'd find it hard to believe a demon like Barbas was a graduate given how ancient he was. But, I disgress.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

That's the sad part of Charmed. They had a million good ideas but continued to keep throwing way too many concepts at us and not expanding what they already had. 

AAEIYN: So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode. BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

KEEPER: That's true. I see you're point, there's expanding and then there's dragging things on too much.



AAEIYN: Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔

KEEPER: That would've been a good way to bring those two back. I do like Ava and Enola. I secretly have a out there/random shipping with Phoebe/Enola. I don't think anybody sees it but me. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I tend to always type on a computer screen. I just find the small screen on a phone hard to really engage, unless its just viewing the Cafe and liking stuff. I need my big screen.

AAEIYN: Right, I'm just so busy xD

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

If you didn't give him a name that had WARLOCK attached to it. Everybody would assume he was a demon. LOL

AAEIYN: Right? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

KEEPER: Neat theory!

------------------------------

AAEIYN: But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".

KEEPER: *nods*

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I never understood that. I always considered warlocks to be much more connected to humans and having no role with the underworld. That concept changed over time.

AAEIYN: in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.

KEEPER: So they might've had some idea of the Source as far back as S1. Just not exactly who he was but the idea of a leader.

SANDRA: A general idea, but I doubt they knew much more than that. Considering how much the Source changed episode to episode in appearance when he finally showed up, they had no idea and clearly didn't plan well.

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

It's pretty clear that changed in S3 (I'm assuming) where everybody demonic is linked with the underworld. Everything that is evil is just connected to the Underworld. 

AAEIYN: Yeah, I can agree there.

KEEPER:

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I don't recall any mentions of the Underworld in S1-S2.

AAEIYN: The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOL

KEEPER: You nailed it! And they set up so much, but personally they really turned it to real crap in S4. They really didn't need to wrap up all what they were building towards and setting up from S1-S2 with a pretty weak climax in S4. The battle with the Source in S4 was so poorly executed. I'm not a fan of Charmed and Dangerous. I know how much that episode is beloved. But I find it was a let-down. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I know Tempus was sent as a "gift" to Inspector Rodriguez. But it seemed like he was sent from the Underworld. I do wonder if Upper Level Demons were much more rare and in the shadows until the Charmed Ones were confirmed as being a threat. It's then that they start to come out and blend into the human world more. We do have the Demonic Council in S2E22 became aware of the Charmed Ones existence and sent many evil beings after them to kill them. Same with The Triad. But I tend to mix these two up and think Kern did that they are not the same beings. 

So its possible they didn't do much until the Charmed Ones were starting to vanquish most of the upper level demons that they started to become much more involved. This isn't counting the lower level demons like Javna and Maslin who were in the shadows targeting innocents for a long time.

Could've opened up an interesting idea of the demonic world and warlock world being at odds, when warlocks felt threatened that upper level demons were showing themselves more and more in the open. Imagine if instead of good and evil coming together with the Hollow issue to close it, It was witches and warlocks working together to close the gates of the Underworld. Obviously not too easy, since the idea of warlocks wanting to double cross witches and the Charmed Ones to steal more and more powers to wipe out demons and one of them becoming the next Source could've been a fun story.

AAEIYN: It's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

KEEPER: I can see that with Rodriguez. After all Rex and Hannah died before they had time to report back to the Source about what they found out. But I tend to believe that The Source already knew since as you pointed out Tempus already knew. 

But the way Rodriguez talked it sounded like the demonic community were in contact with each other when he mentions his colleagues continued to turn up missing or dead. It could've been fun to get a flashback episode diving into the history of the demonic world. 


--------------------------

AAEIYN: And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.

KEEPER: Yeah, I can see that all being in the works then. I'm sure they were already setting up Cole by late S2, because 'Astral Monkey' somewhat teases Phoebe getting a boyfriend soon with her little side-plot with the boyfriend list. 

Jul 26, 2023 16:00:56 GMT -5 Keeper Of Melinda's Locket said:

I went a little overboard here with my reply. LOL I want to catch up on some other topics. I'll table this for now.

AAEIYN: Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

KEEPER: No, you're all good. I'll have to say the same in return for mine. I'm going to town with this one.

It's why I divided my reply up this way. Because I was starting to forget who said what with all the quotes. 

Jul 26, 2023 22:10:12 GMT -5 Andrew said:

ANDREW: It really does make one wish that there had been someone on staff to keep track of the lore. The only way I can make that work for myself is to headcanon that blinking used to be a power that some witches had, but over time warlocks hunted them all down and killed them for it, so now anyone left who can Blink would, by definition, most likely have to be a warlock. But I suspect even that’s putting way more thought into this than the showrunners did (as demonstrated by “Bride & Gloom” having the Charmed Ones suddenly manifesting the ability upon their conversion to evil… a conversion that did not repeat when Phoebe was married in a similar dark ceremony, but that’s neither here nor there).

KEEPER: Don't I wish they did. Nobody was or else we wouldn't have Penny becoming "Penny Halliwell" after "Victor Halliwell". Nobody bothered to proof basic lore with names. How embarrassing. You'd think they'd have a bible with just the general family history. LOL 

That's an interesting point. Should Phoebe have become a Warlock when she married in a similar dark ceremony, or are we led to believe her carrying Cole's child mixed with the Seer's tonic and giving her demonic powers cancelled that and she's more demonic less warlock. 


--------------------------------

ANDREW: Also, you can add the Rowe coven to the list of warlocks who couldn’t Blink.

KEEPER: That's right! They didn't blink, did they. LOL

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Exactly, but I don't even think the show ever narrated this as such, unfortunately.I'm confused, now. How would a "bad witch" and "warlock" differ, for you? I thought we like the idea of if a "bad witch" goes "bad", she's a Warlock? Or is it just "stealing powers"?

To me, it seems like if you're a "bad witch" you're a Warlock, that's it, end of story xDMaybe but even then, I don't think Tuatha was killing to obtain powers so maybe that's why, she's classified as "an evil witch"?

That is true, Succubuses are former witches. Same thing with a Banshee. Though, it's not really a choice like a Succubus xDNow, I'm starting to see the confusion.

I guess "Warlocks" are SUPPOSED to be for "stealing powers" and "evil witches" are just "evil" and that they don't have to "steal powers" for that.

Even so, we have Warlocks that aren't about "stealing powers" such as the Collectors and Dragon Warlock.

That being said, it should just be, if you're evil, you're a "Warlock".

ANDREW: Originally, I think warlocks were witches who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers. However, as the Rowe coven showed, you could also be born a warlock. Later came the specific breeds… You know what might have made that make some kind of sense? If those were more like warlocks in the D&D sense of the term: people who had made a pact with some kind of supernatural entity (obviously an evil one, in this setting). Their powers would all be the same because they were coming from the same source. Then you could have a recurring antagonist faction that you wouldn’t have to keep coming up with backstory for every episode, and you could maybe even end the season with the Charmed Ones going up against the demonic patron directly. Heck, you could even have some of the (surviving) now powerless minions seeking revenge on the Charmed Ones for all they’d lost.

KEEPER: Interesting. So you mean more like pledging their allegiance to someone evil or even an oath to the Source for instance.

------------------------------------------------------

ANDREW: But I guess that would have been a bit too nuanced for this show. Wouldn’t want anyone to start asking if it was possible for warlocks to be steered away from evil, after all. To be saved. The closest the show ever came to doing something like that was with Brendan Rowe, who was pointedly half-mortal (I could be wrong, but was this the first time they ever really made the distinction between witches/warlocks and regular “mortal” humans?), and even then it was only possible if he completely renounced his powers and devoted himself to God. There could be “evil witches”, but no good warlocks. Once you did anything that smacked of embracing evil - even if that something was just not pulling a Brendan, or trying to use your powers for good - you were irredeemable. (Unless, of course, you were Phoebe. Then you could be forgiven for anything up to and including multiple counts of murder.) Why have our leading ladies have to struggle with the idea that they might have to kill people to save innocent lives, when you can make the antagonists cartoonishly evil, so flat and one-dimensional that everyone will cheer when they’re killed vanquished, and our heroines can sleep soundly at night?

KEEPER: I think Brendan Rowe was the first half-mortal and only half-mortal/half-warlock we had well until we got Cole. He was almost the beta version of Cole in a sense. But I just don't see Cole as a half-human/half-warlock renounced his powers and devoting himself to God. 

Well if a witch who turned evil and killed other witches for their powers, maybe the opposite could happen to redeem a warlock. Maybe one who saved an innocent becomes a witch. Unless someone can think of another way for redemption that doesn't involve  renounced their powers and devoting himself to God.

------------------------------------

ANDREW: I swear, the writing room had one of these sitting on a desk:



KEEPER: That made me laugh so much. 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I'd be fine with demons if the demons were actually demonic looking like Abraxas, Masselin, Manticore, etc. And not leather wearing human looking and fireball throwing "demons" 🙄IDK if Constance "didn't care" for demons.

Her "first demon", if you will is when she co-wrote with Kern in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again" with Tempus. Then again, that could've just been Kern's idea. And, Burge is responsible for the foundation of S2E9 "Ms. Hellfire" which brought Barbas back so IDK LOL

And, Kern actually is credited for writing these episodes which have "Warlocks", in them via (S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For") Dragon Warlock and (S5E18 "Cat House") Familiar Hunter.Unfortunately, Brad Kern has been credited as "Executive Producer" since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes". He's (also) credited for writing S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin".

I do agree about the clashes between producers AND the network. And, the Network wanting to mingle their way in and change everything which I can see in S2 with the sexier outfits and band promotions, but I digress.

Not to mention may have been responsible in firing Shannen (who actually directed TWO different Kern episodes, that he wrote) who was brave enough to call the Network out on their nonsense, and Kern being too much of spineless coward to really stand up for the show that he's been a part of since S1.

'Cause remember he's the one who wanted to write Piper being pregnant, and Aaron and Duke hating the idea and expressed this show is about "three sexy women, you can't have one of them being pregnant!" At least, according to what James L. Conway, said. I posted that video under the What do you think of Piper being a Mom? thread. For anyone looking for proof.

But yes, I don't think Kern had all this power like everybody thinks he does. He's just a coward who didn't stand up for the show's integrity, but I digress.

And Spelling (at least Aaron) has been a part of the project since the Unaired Pilot, so IDK what the difference is between Executive Producers and the Network, but I blame the Network for ruining the show, as that's where most of the problems Holly has expressed over the years came from.Pretty much. Demons are supposed to be more mysterious and not just everywhere.

IK Andrew made a joke about how all the more human looking demons are really graduates from the S3E12 "Wrestling with Demons" Human to Demon academy xD Proof and evidence

But, I digress.

ANDREW: Honestly, that’s only a joke because for it to be true would have required someone on staff keeping track of this sort of thing, and Charmed, much as I may like it, did not pay attention to things like continuity. However, that does still remain my preferred explanation for the sheer abundance of black-clad, fireball-throwing idiots. 😎

KEEPER: 

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

So true.

Then again, I don't mind episode one-offs, so we can watch anywhere in the series and not have to worry about taking notes on a prior episode.

BUT, even if it's just a one or two extra episodes.

Like, I really wanted Aviva and Max to come back. Same with (S6E14 "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell") Enola. And (S5E6 "The Eyes Have it") Ava, OFC.

Alas, no 😔Right, I'm just so busy xDRight? Dragon Warlock was even working for "The Councilman" (which are similar to the Triad) and their meetings looked like it was taking place in the Underworld, I seriously thought he was a Demon.

And, that "the Councilman" were "the Triad" until I realized they weren't. Which is funny because "the Councilman" were SPECIFICALLY named "the Councilman" in S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" which Kern is credited for. But then S3E1 "The Honeymoon's Over" calls them "the Triad" which (AGAIN) Kern is credited for writing. But, I don't think we really see officially until S3E2 "Magic Hour"?

My theory is 2 of the original "Councilman" had their own ideas that differed from the other 3 members of "the Councilman", and that they were original "Triad" that Cole killed.

And the remaining 2 members of "the Councilman" were looking for recruits which would explain ANOTHER Triad set in S8, and why one demon was seeking revenge against the S8 iteration of "the Triad" 'cause these 2 "the Councilman" members were looking for suitable additions, and that one demon wasn't it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! xD

But, yeah, side tanjent, but yeah, Dragon Warlock doesn't act like a Warlock, at all. Neither do the Collectors from S2E7 "They're Everywhere".in S1E9 "The Witch is Back" unfortunately. As the Source is alluded to in that episode. Maybe even back in S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts" and Hannah (under the effects of the Truth Spell) blurted out that she was on a mission to destroy Prue.Yeah, I can agree there.The Underworld is alluded to in S1E10 "Wicca Envy".

When Prue tells Rex to "go to hell", and Rex says he'd "love to" and "misses it, terribly" LOL Along with when Hannah getting ring of fired to death (like the 4 Horseman in S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not" and Troxa in S3E5 "Sight Unseen"), and Piper asked "what the hell was that?" and Phoebe says "I think you just answered your own question".

Remnants of "the Source" (not by name) and "the Underworld" (not by name) were definitely alluded to in S1-S2.

Like I said earlier, it can be traced as far back as S1E8 "The Truth is Out There...and it Hurts". Leading into S1E9 "The Witch is Back" and S1E10 "Wicca Envy". Again, in S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over, Again", S2E15 "Give Me a Sign" (actually names "the Source"), S2E21 "Apocalypse, Not", S2E22 "Be Careful What You Witch For" and OFC, S3 happened.

S1-S2 was "setting it up". S3-S4 was its "established form" I guess LOLIt's a possibility 'cause the first to actually figure them out as "Charmed" outside of both Jeremy and Nicolas knowing they were Charmed was Rex & Hannah, when Rex planted the locket on Prue's desk, in S1E9 "The Witch is Back".

ANDREW: Ooo, now that’d be interesting! I’d imagine a fair number of innocents would have to die first to make the witches even consider agreeing to a joint mission like that, let alone actually do so, so there already would be more stakes than the show usually had. There’d be tension and drama, wondering when (not if) the warlocks would try and stab them in the back, if anyone of the warlocks would sell them out to the Underworld (the term warlock originally meant “oathbreaker”, I believe) what would happen if they actually succeeded. You could even stretch it out over several episodes by having the ritual needed to close the gates require several unique, hard to find artifacts, and the demons would figure out what they were doing pretty quickly and thus move to prevent their acquisition, meaning they couldn’t split up to get them all at once, as whatever defenders were put in place would require a not inconsiderable amount of power to deal with. You wanna switch things up even more? Have the inevitable betrayal come from the witches’ side, from someone like Billie whom the demons could make an offer (her sister’s life in exchange for keeping them informed of what the witches and warlocks were doing) that she didn’t dare refuse.

KEEPER: It has so many possibilities. LOL we're all coming up with far interesting concepts and making sense of the lore than the real writers did. 

-------------------------------------

ANDREW: I’d rather not bring the Source into it, though, unless this was the final season. As I’ve said elsewhere, when you have a character named “The Source of All Evil”, that is your final boss.

KEEPER: Agreed! I hated what they did with S4 so much. All that build-up and they had a predictable wrap-up with the Source. That made the last four seasons predictable when you already used your major threat. Although Zankou was fantastic, and maybe he should've been the Source. LOL

When exactly did the Source get the "All Evil" name. I don't remember when they started that. I always thought he was just 'The Source"?

SANDRA: That's a good question. I have no idea when the "All Evil" name first got mentioned. It could've even been in S4 but I'm not sure. Maybe Charmed Again Part 2?

Jul 26, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

And, when they failed with Matthew Tate, Hannah said they still had time 'cause they proved the Charmed Ones existence, and Rex only slightly agreed. And, well, the events of S1E10 "Wicca Envy" happened.

It's possible Rodriguez didn't believe Rex and Hannah actually found the Charmed Ones and wanted to see for himself and confirmed it, but I think the Tempus already knew that they were Charmed and even told Rodriguez it's one thing to "find" the Charmed Ones, it's another to "defeat" them.

And, well, we know how the rest of the series goes LOL

And quite possibly, S2 was just the S3 stuff "being planned", as the finale ends with the Dragon Warlock and "the Triad" in the making x2 LOL

As I already expressed my "the Councilman" and "the Triad" theory.Same LOL

Like I said, I have A LOT to say about this topic, and I can only get so much out xD

Apologies for my monstrous post 😝

ANDREW: And now I’ve made it worse. Oops? 🤷🏻‍♂️

KEEPER: Oops! You can add me to that list!

[Andrew]

Okay, this is getting to be a BIT much. *lol* I have to ask, before we end up with mile-long posts, can we trim some of the excess, going forward? Maybe quote just the part(s) you’re responding to? I know I’m as guilty of this as anyone, believe me, so this isn’t directed at anyone specifically. Maybe it’s something that was only bugging me, and that’s fine if so. I just thought I should mention it.

More on topic, warlocks really should have been a bigger deal, given that they were introduced as the evil equivalents of witches (and kind of predators of them, as well), and with our main trio of witches killing vanquishing ever greater forces of evil, the shift to “upper-level demons” is kind of odd. Did they introduce the concept of the “Evil Charmed Ones” (aka the Rowe coven) too soon in the show’s run for that to work, do you think? Their (Anti-Charmed?) circle hadn’t actually been formed, so they never even achieved their base-level power of three, let alone had their powers grow over time, but they were (supposed to be) the evil mirror of the Halliwells. Would increasingly more powerful warlocks have been believable after that, or accepted? Or would it have been like when witches stronger than “the most powerful good witches ever” (or however it was phrased) began appearing, and a number of fans got, shall we say, upset?

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

Jul 28, 2023 20:46:58 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Okay, this is getting to be a BIT much. *lol* I have to ask, before we end up with mile-long posts, can we trim some of the excess, going forward? Maybe quote just the part(s) you’re responding to? I know I’m as guilty of this as anyone, believe me, so this isn’t directed at anyone specifically. Maybe it’s something that was only bugging me, and that’s fine if so. I just thought I should mention it.

*nods* Sorry if that made it worse for you. If others feel the same way, I'm fine with that.

Perhaps we can do it like this quoting part want to reply too rather than the whole thing.

EXAMPLE:

ANDREW: I’d rather not bring the Source into it, though, unless this was the final season. As I’ve said elsewhere, when you have a character named “The Source of All Evil”, that is your final boss.

KEEPER: Agreed! I hated what they did with S4 so much. All that build-up and they had a predictable wrap-up with the Source. That made the last four seasons predictable when you already used your major threat. Although Zankou was fantastic, and maybe he should've been the Source. LOL

When exactly did the Source get the "All Evil" name. I don't remember when they started that. I always thought he was just 'The Source"?

SANDRA: That's a good question. I have no idea when the "All Evil" name first got mentioned. It could've even been in S4 but I'm not sure. Maybe Charmed Again Part 2?

KEEPER: NEW COMMENT HERE!!!

[Aaeiyn]

Jul 28, 2023 20:46:58 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Okay, this is getting to be a BIT much. *lol* I have to ask, before we end up with mile-long posts, can we trim some of the excess, going forward? Maybe quote just the part(s) you’re responding to? I know I’m as guilty of this as anyone, believe me, so this isn’t directed at anyone specifically. Maybe it’s something that was only bugging me, and that’s fine if so. I just thought I should mention it.

Yeah, I was going to trim down my next response and only respond to what I feel is relevant.

I don't mind the long posts 'cause this is a discussion board, and I can always come back and tackle the read, later.

I'm working on a post as we speak, but I'll do my best to keep it as organized as possible.

[greta]

Jul 28, 2023 20:46:58 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Okay, this is getting to be a BIT much. *lol* I have to ask, before we end up with mile-long posts, can we trim some of the excess, going forward? Maybe quote just the part(s) you’re responding to? I know I’m as guilty of this as anyone, believe me, so this isn’t directed at anyone specifically. Maybe it’s something that was only bugging me, and that’s fine if so. I just thought I should mention it.

More on topic, warlocks really should have been a bigger deal, given that they were introduced as the evil equivalents of witches (and kind of predators of them, as well), and with our main trio of witches killing vanquishing ever greater forces of evil, the shift to “upper-level demons” is kind of odd. Did they introduce the concept of the “Evil Charmed Ones” (aka the Rowe coven) too soon in the show’s run for that to work, do you think? Their (Anti-Charmed?) circle hadn’t actually been formed, so they never even achieved their base-level power of three, let alone had their powers grow over time, but they were (supposed to be) the evil mirror of the Halliwells. Would increasingly more powerful warlocks have been believable after that, or accepted? Or would it have been like when witches stronger than “the most powerful good witches ever” (or however it was phrased) began appearing, and a number of fans got, shall we say, upset?

I see what you mean. But I do commend Keeper for the mighty effort she did putting everyone's comments together. That must have taken time. Perhaps we can just take parts that we'd like to reply too in future.

Maybe it would be even better to divide everything into separate posts rather than just ONE long post. 

[Keeper Of Melinda's Locket]

Jul 28, 2023 20:46:58 GMT -5 Andrew said:

More on topic, warlocks really should have been a bigger deal, given that they were introduced as the evil equivalents of witches (and kind of predators of them, as well), and with our main trio of witches killing vanquishing ever greater forces of evil, the shift to “upper-level demons” is kind of odd.

KEEPER: It does seem odd. I wish they had a much bigger deal on the show than the show had. It seemed that what went wrong with Charmed was due to The WB higher-ups more than Brad Kern who just did what he was told and didn't care as long as he was paid. Put it this way Brad Kern was Charmed's Shax and The WB higher-ups was Charmed's Source. What do you think of that? I think the demons started looking human and shimmered and threw energy balls was because The WB wanted to save money...they could've done that by keeping them warlocks without dividing it into breeds. That just added confusion. But I digress.


-----------------------------------------

ANDREW: Did they introduce the concept of the “Evil Charmed Ones” (aka the Rowe coven) too soon in the show’s run for that to work, do you think?

KEEPER: I really think they did using it for a one-off episode. It was so weird that they decided to throw that away. But I have a hunch when world building, they slowly were crafting the upper level demons being more important than warlocks the deeper they got into S1. So the whole concept wasn't that important to them and just another fun story to craft that a writer came up with. That shows how little they cared for warlocks by even late S1, if this idea came up in the writers room, nobody seemed to protest or think this idea is really interesting that they should table it for future.

----------------------------

ANDREW: Their (Anti-Charmed?) circle hadn’t actually been formed, so they never even achieved their base-level power of three, let alone had their powers grow over time, but they were (supposed to be) the evil mirror of the Halliwells. Would increasingly more powerful warlocks have been believable after that, or accepted? Or would it have been like when witches stronger than “the most powerful good witches ever” (or however it was phrased) began appearing, and a number of fans got, shall we say, upset?

KEEPER: What an interesting question. I don't know if they would've been accepted, but we did have a number of trios introduced later in Repo Manor and The Power of Three Blonded, obviously they were not warlocks in both. But, I do wonder if its possible the prophecy could've shifted to a new trio of warlocks, but I don't know if fans would've accepted it. Again it would be the case of going against canon when they already set that up in a one-off episode back in S1.