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Post by foxfire on Sept 6, 2007 21:35:24 GMT -5
Since I just watched the entirety of Angel season four, I just kind of wanted to bring up the whole topic of "utopia". Oddly enough, Angel season four has a lot of Charmed similarities.
For one, it dealt with the influence of an evil baby. In Angel, it was Cordelia and in Charmed it was Phoebe. However, I truly want to dwell on the fact of the ideal world created by the Avatars in Charmed and Jasmine in Angel. In Charmed, what the Charmed Ones do is viewed as right and good, whereas in Angel it was left up to question.
In both cases, the people in power took away free will. In both cases, there was killing of innocents. Both cases also featured brainwashed versions of the main characters. However, with Angel, it was made to seem like what Angel and company did might have been wrong. By stopping a utopia (which kills people here and there), does it contribute to the evil side of things? No matter how good that world might have been, in both cases free will was seen as the decision maker. What do you all think? Does free will beat out world peace?
Did Paige, Phoebe and Piper make the right decision? Was Leo wise to sacrifice himself?
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Post by Stormythomas on Sept 6, 2007 21:53:36 GMT -5
You know it's funny you mention this...I just finished writing a small paper on The Giver (Lois Lowry's book). If you've never read it, you should  But anyways, it deals with a "perfect" community with no pain and such. However it emphasizes that by achieving this Utopian world, you'll be giving up a lot of good things (love, freedom, etc). Paige, Phoebe, and Piper, made a selfish decision, I think. They thought this would benefit them, so they made the change. They were wrong. It wasn't their decision to make. Plus, I don't think a perfect Utopian world is possible without giving up free will. And what's the point of living life, if all your choices have been made already. (Not to mention how boring it would be!). |
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Post by MarAcev on Sept 6, 2007 22:19:52 GMT -5
I don't think they make the decision solely based on the benefits for themselves. For Phoebe, she had that vision that apparently came with more than visuals, but also had a feeling that the dude from Ordinary witches got to feel as well.
As for Piper and Paige, they did debate whether or not they had the right to make that decision. Also, remember that they did NOT know free will was out of the equation before they agreed to the utopia. For them it was presented as a world with no evil in which everyone would be better off and there would be no demons not only for them to fight but also to kill other people. As far as they were concerned, they were doing the right thing by giving the world the hope of no evil beings around. They just didn't know that it would come at a high cost, sacrificing free will. Once they and Leo knew what it was all about, they corrected their mistake, whatever the cost.
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Post by Stormythomas on Sept 6, 2007 23:05:31 GMT -5
Fair enough, they DID NOT know about the loss of free will. But isn't that the point. Such a HUGE decision, and they didn't know? I still think it was their want for a evil free world, that lead them into making a rash decision. And I know they were debating whether it was okay for them to go through with it, but in the end they decided it was. How could they make such a decision that effected the WHOLE world? I don't know. I would hate to have my life changed because three people thought it would be better that way. It wasn't just their lives they were effection, and so making that decision was selfish.
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 7, 2007 8:38:03 GMT -5
Fair enough, they DID NOT know about the loss of free will. But isn't that the point. Such a HUGE decision, and they didn't know? I still think it was their want for a evil free world, that lead them into making a rash decision. And I know they were debating whether it was okay for them to go through with it, but in the end they decided it was. How could they make such a decision that effected the WHOLE world? I don't know. I would hate to have my life changed because three people thought it would be better that way. It wasn't just their lives they were effection, and so making that decision was selfish. If they *wanted* a "free evil world", then I'd agree. But that wasn't the reason why they wanted it. They wanted a world where Phoebe would get her daughter and they'd be happy. Sounds *very* selfish to me. As soon as Phoebe used the switch spell just to show Piper what she counted as her perfect world--getting to have her daughter--I knew they couldn't make a proper decision. That spell was originally used to save Leo's life! To do it in this situation... I liked the Avatars better in S5 when they were simply trying to keep a balance between good and evil, not trying to get rid of both. As someone pointed out, that would be awful boring and turn us all into robots. No, thanks. |
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Post by MarAcev on Sept 7, 2007 18:43:09 GMT -5
Not for lack of questioning. The avatars didn't exactly share that information and unless they specifically asked "would people lose free will?" they weren't going to say anything.
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Post by HollysFan on Sept 7, 2007 19:01:34 GMT -5
I would absolutely choose free will over Utopia any day.
I do think that their decision to change the world was selfish, but they obviously didn't realize the cost of that decision.
Forgive me but I don't remember Piper ever seeing what Phoebe and that one guy saw. It's been a while since I saw those episodes so I could be wrong.
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Post by foxfire on Sept 7, 2007 19:05:23 GMT -5
Concerning the Avatars and why I was so skeptical of them, they never gave the complete "this is what the world will be like" they only gave the cliffnotes version of it. They left out very important details, obviously it was an instance where trust played a huge part. Could the Charmed Ones really trust the Avatars? Frankly, after seven years of demon fighting they should have learned that not only does everything have a catch but it has a price too.
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Post by MarAcev on Sept 7, 2007 19:17:14 GMT -5
You have to remember that for Piper, Leo played a huge part in her decision and he firmly believed in the avatars. He had seen they meant well (as far as he was concerned, everything they offered was fine and dandy) and Piper always believed and trusted Leo as he never intentionally deceived or let her down. Phoebe had that vision in which she apparently saw a peaceful world (not just her daughter), the Seer had that vision and claimed it was a pretty good thing. Her and the guy had no reason to want utopia just because Phoebe would have a daughter. What did they care about that? It was apparently a very tempting offer, not just for them but for some others as well.
You are not wrong. Piper never got to see the vision. She trusted that if Phoebe, the Seer, the dude and Leo were pushing for this, they had to take a leap of faith. Again, they didn't know the details because the avatars weren't sharing.
Were the Charmed ones selfish? Not necessarily, specially if they felt that this world would be better for everyone. Did they have the right to make that decision for the world? Absolutely not, but they are not perfect and I think in the end the fact that they admited and corrected their mistake (at the cost of losing Leo and Kyle) is as important as the fact that they made a mistake in the first place.
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Post by Stormythomas on Sept 7, 2007 19:30:08 GMT -5
Not for lack of questioning. The avatars didn't exactly share that information and unless they specifically asked "would people lose free will?" they weren't going to say anything. My point is, they should have known exactly what would happen. They should have at taken a lot longer asking questions, to make sure they knew everything. I wouldn't trust a major change in the world to some group of people. I would want to know everything. They could've just asked, "How will this affect other people?" or "Will this affect the memories/beliefs/knowledge of others?" Personally I would ask every question I could think of. I mean I would be changing the lives of the whole world.,I wouldn't want to make a mistake. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 7, 2007 21:13:43 GMT -5
[ Forgive me but I don't remember Piper ever seeing what Phoebe and that one guy saw. It's been a while since I saw those episodes so I could be wrong. That's OK. Phoebe used the same power-switching spell that Piper used in Love Hurts to save Leo, so Piper could see Phoebe's idea of Utopia. Once Piper had Phoebe's power of premonition, Piper was able to see Phoebe's daughter who is at school with young Chris. Seeing that they would be Ok and not have to fight evil is what decided Piper to go along with anything. Again, just them and their family; who cares about the rest of the world? And they only changed the world back when they found out it caused harm to THEIR loved ones! Little Wyatt and Little Chris were more upset by what happened to the outside world than the sisters who are supposed to be protecting it! I truly ABHOR that whole story line, because it made me start hating the selfish, self-centered sisters who did not deserve to keep their powers one single bit, as proven when they were just going to go off on their merry way at the end of Season 7! And the point is, if they DID care about anyone besides themselves, they would've asked how it would affect the others and be upset when they found out. But they weren't--it was just remembering their own pain that made them decide to turn it back. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 7, 2007 22:27:50 GMT -5
I'm first to admit when I'm wrong--especially because I know when I have a very bad memory. And re-reading the script from Ordinary Witches I found out that even tho Phoebe tried to switch powers with Piper, their powers ended up going to the neighbors who still ended up seeing what Phoebe saw. Although I'm wrong and Piper never saw what Phoebe saw, I *am* right that, that--seeing their children in a world where they wouldn't have to worry about demon-fighting without caring one single bit how it would affect others, is still true. So I still loathe the sisters at that point just as much as I did.
This is from the script. See if you see what I mean:
Piper: Well, at least Denise and Ronnie get to go back to their normal lives.
Phoebe: Did Leo use the memory dust on them?
Piper: Yeah. Although, it's kind of a shame considering everything they went through. I mean, Ronnie got to see a better future.
Phoebe: Yeah. Too bad you didn't get to see the future that Ronnie saw.
Piper: I don't think I need to. I mean, I saw how just one glimpse changed that man forever. And the fact that the Avatars aren't killers helps a bit. That's enough for me.
Phoebe: Really?
Piper: It's worth a shot. It's gotta be better than cleaning up after demons all the time.
*rolls eyes at Piper* What a horrible reason to change the world!
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Post by foxfire on Sept 7, 2007 22:47:20 GMT -5
In a sense, I see where both Piper and Phoebe are coming from. To be honest, demons mean that innocents get hurt. If there aren't any demons then innocents can't get hurt either. It wasn't just the fact that Phoebe had a daughter in this vision but it was also a feeling that it gave off.
However, I really admired Paige during this storyline. It brought back the Paige of late season four. She questionned things and really wanted to ensure their safety. However, I think there was a bit of peer pressure from the other two sisters.
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Post by Stormythomas on Sept 8, 2007 15:14:26 GMT -5
Phoebe: Yeah. Too bad you didn't get to see the future that Ronnie saw. Piper: I don't think I need to. I mean, I saw how just one glimpse changed that man forever. And the fact that the Avatars aren't killers helps a bit. That's enough for me. Phoebe: Really? Piper: It's worth a shot. It's gotta be better than cleaning up after demons all the time. As much as I love Piper, that just proves my point about it being a selfish, unthought, decision. "That's enough for me." How can that be enough? |
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 8, 2007 16:45:02 GMT -5
Well, the Avatars clearly manipulated Leo...and the sisters regularly put a lot of trust in Leo, so I'm not surprised that they went along with the decision.
Also keep in mind, in Phoebe's astral premonition ("vision quest") from Season 6 ("The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell"), she not only saw one of her future daughters, but Phoebe had an experience in her future body where the demons tried to attack her in the manor, but the demonic entities literally phased right through Phoebe's body. This implies that the demons and other creatures of Evil were ultimately banished to another plane of existence in Utopia, one where they could not interact with the pure mortals and forces of Good.
Me too, although I don't think the Avatars as depicted in S5 were trying to strike a "balance" (even if they approached Cole under that guise). I think the Avatars in S5 were portrayed as amoral (or morally ambiguous) creatures who wanted power at any cost, and were willing to surpass both Good and Evil in order to do so.
It wasn't until S7, with the whole Avatar-vanquishing-potion crap, that the Avatar plot went downhill.
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Post by ljones on Sept 9, 2007 2:02:29 GMT -5
And what about the evil that exists within humans? Within all humans . . . including the Charmed Ones? Did the Halliwells ever stopped to think about that? Why would they believe they had the right to decide how the world would be without the consent of others? It's one thing to save someone's life. It's another to change his or her life and personality without consent.
Whether they motives were selfish or not, I believe that it was the wrong thing for them to help the Avatars change the world in such a drastic manner. Don't Wiccans believe it is wrong to cast a spell on someone without that person's consent?
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Post by marienomad on Sept 9, 2007 9:22:42 GMT -5
I think the Charmed Ones believe that they know way more than the Elders about how the world worked and decided to that the Avatars were the way to go.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 9, 2007 18:05:37 GMT -5
I'm not justifying the Halliwells' decision to remake the world under the Avatars' guidance. Obviously, it was wrong for them to take it upon themselves to do that.
What I'm saying is that, had Utopia remained intact under the Avatars' rule, the Avatars would have manipulated the Charmed Ones and other good witches to banish magical creatures of Evil from Earth en masse, as was implied from Phoebe's astral premonition ("vision quest") in "The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell."
By teaming with Zankou to scare the Avatars into submission, the Charmed Ones altered that version of the future from coming to pass.
Yes, ljones, humans still would have had the evil inside themselves present, even if all the creatures of Evil were banished from Utopia by the Charmed Ones and Avatars. But if any humans "misbehaved" by exerting that evil in an "unacceptable" way, the Avatars would have simply "removed" them from existence in their new Utopia.
I think the Avatars would have teamed up with either Good or Evil in order to achieve Utopia: whether it was a matter of the most powerful forces of Good aligning with the Avatars to banish Evil magical creatures from the world, or vice versa (the most powerful forces of Evil aligning with the Avatars to banish Good magical creatures from the world).
When it came down to it, Good was just more easy to manipulate into being tantalized by the notion of Utopia than Evil was. It's likely that, back when The Source was still alive, the Avatars approached The Source with a similar offer: to purge all Good from the world to achieve a Utopia where Evil could thrive without interference. But, most likely, The Source didn't trust the Avatars and declined their offer, because he saw through their agenda and knew there'd be strings attached.
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Post by ljones on Sept 9, 2007 18:09:59 GMT -5
I think the Charmed Ones believe that they know way more than the Elders about how the world worked and decided to that the Avatars were the way to go. Which tells me that in the end, they knew nothing. After all, events ended up proving them wrong, didn't it? I wonder how long this "Utopia" would have lasted. The Avatars had already tried once and failed. Miserably. To change the world into something with no evil . . . that seems to go against nature. Sooner or later, nature would have fought back (as it always does) and the Avatars and the Charmed Ones' plans would have eventually come to an end. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 9, 2007 18:28:16 GMT -5
Unless the Charmed Ones had completely lost their free will and identities from the "bliss" of living a demon-free life.
Then, the Avatars would have been basically moving around chess pieces in their own personal playground for the rest of eternity.
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