ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Oct 30, 2007 11:50:14 GMT -5
Again . . . why would the male members of the Warren line hide any powers they might possess from their female relatives?
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Elder
Witch
"I'd still take 'good' that's not always good, over 'bad' that's NEVER good"
Posts: 1,029
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Post by Elder on Oct 30, 2007 15:40:59 GMT -5
I don't really have time to write fanfiction myself. After reading through your timeline, I have to say the following: The challenge is...for somebody to come up with episodes based on those timelines and make them into a viable, logical, believable, and watchable TV series. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 30, 2007 20:37:59 GMT -5
Vandergraafk, good catch! - - I myself even made typos and was inconsistent between whether I wrote "Marx" or "Marks."
We discussed this in another thread. At some point, it became the standard belief in the Warren family that only girls could be magical. So all of the boys in the family were raised with that belief, and they were afraid to go against their mothers (and foremothers) by defying that so-called "conventional wisdom."
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 30, 2007 20:38:54 GMT -5
Yes, it certainly is a challenge. But writing in general is a challenge, wouldn't you say?
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Oct 30, 2007 21:29:18 GMT -5
That doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't make sense that the male members of the Warren family would deliberately hide their abilities from the female members . . . because they were afraid to go against their mothers? That doesn't make any sense.
Are you trying to hint that the female members of the Warren line might deliberately harm the male members if they displayed any magical abilities?
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 31, 2007 17:44:40 GMT -5
Isn't there a difference between male witches as "carriers" and male witches hiding their powers? Gregory used his discretely, I assume, while others were just carriers?
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Post by pipercharmedphreak on Oct 31, 2007 18:08:40 GMT -5
whitelightertony: i would have to agree with many other people! your timeline is slightly confusiong, and it is obvious you have had to make up a lot of this information (especially the earlier unknown things) as well as specific dates when events have happened! but as accurate or inaccurate as this may be, kudos to you for taking the time to create something like this!
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 31, 2007 18:43:19 GMT -5
No, to your last question.
And it makes sense to me. Hi, have you met the Warren/Halliwell women? Look at how Grams treated Victor (and Wyatt, at first). As Phoebe stated in "That 70's Episode": "Grams is one scary witch!"
Assuming that Grams "inherited" such a mindset from her foremothers, I wouldn't be surprised if the Warren boys were absolutely terrified to reveal to their mothers and sisters that they had these "forbidden," "girls-only" abilities.
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 31, 2007 18:49:55 GMT -5
Yes. The male Warren family members designated (by my timeline) as merely "carriers" weren't technically witches. Much like Carl and Helen Jenkins, they were born to actual witches but the magical DNA genetically skipped them (sort of like when someone finds themselves to be the sole redheaded person born into a family of brunettes). So when male "carriers" were born, the Warren women just assumed that the boys in their family couldn't be magical, because their boys had exhibited no signs of having powers or magic.
Gregory (a full male witch) indeed would have learned to use his powers discretely, probably coached by his own father, James (also a "carrier"), who would have urged his son to conceal his power/magic as James would have been accustomed to the exclusionary mindset of the women in their family.
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 31, 2007 18:55:22 GMT -5
Yes, I fully admit to taking creative liberty with the dates and most of the character details. But Kern/Burge never mapped out a detailed family tree or family history (as far as we know).
I can understand that it's confusing, because my family tree runs chronologically, rather than by lineage (i.e. branches of new families from specific offspring). Also, someone earlier commented that the family history seemed too much like a soap. Fair enough - - but aren't most families? People did have affairs and betrayal in the Seventeenth through Nineteenth Centuries...families just didn't air them out so freely (no Jerry Springer in Colonial Massachusetts).
Thank you! Part of it was for fun, but another part was to show people that it was conceivable for therr to be male witches in the early Warren family tree - - especially, as I said earlier, since it is utterly IMPROBABLE that thirteen generations of Warrens would be born without any male children whatsoever (almost as improbable as the ridiculous suggestion that Paige would have somehow survived Meta's attack in "Oh My Goddess," had Chris not orbed in to intervene).
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Post by Assassin Witch on Oct 31, 2007 21:06:53 GMT -5
Grams' mother didn't seem to have a problem with men. I personally believe that Grams had an issue with men for whatever reason she had. We've met a few Warren women, and Penny's really the only one to have it against men.
Umm..how did all of a sudden men only became carriers?
Times began to change though. It wasn't all arranged marriages, so they could marry for love. I don't know, but in the Warren line, it just seems way over the top.
I don't really think that there were no men in the line, it's just Grams being her usual cynical self.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 1, 2007 17:24:09 GMT -5
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 1, 2007 18:46:24 GMT -5
To be fair, we didn't see much of Penny's mother (Piper's past life)...her only appearance was in "Pardon My Past."
How many previous Warren women - - aside from Charlotte, Melinda, and Penny's mother - - have we actually met in person? Penny could easily have been influenced by gynocentric attitudes from her own maternal grandmother or great-aunts.
It's possible for women to be carriers too. But the only Warren offspring who turned out to be carriers happened to be men...fueling the faulty conclusion that the Warren women would have jumped to, that men in their family somehow couldn't be magical.
How many times have the Charmed Ones and Grams bemoaned how unlucky in love the women in their family have been? Why is it so hard to believe that such a dynamic for misfortune predates Grams? I doubt every Warren woman born between Melinda and Grams was 100% fortunate in her love life.
I agree that Penny's cynicism is a big part of it, largely because of all her own failed relationships.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 1, 2007 18:51:01 GMT -5
Yes, partially; if Warren men in the Nineteenth Century were raised with fathers who never openly practiced magic, and mothers (and other matriarchs) who groomed their daughters to become powerful witches but told the boys they were incapable of being magical...that overall attitude could have been passed down to Grams, cementing her belief that men are "magically inferior" to women.
If Warren boys, such as Gregory or Jeffrey, had been conditioned by their matriarchs to believe that they were "incapable" of being magical ("it's a girl thing")...and given how strong-willed and hard-headed the Warren women conceivably were throughout history...that would be quite an intimidating environment for those poor boys to challenge the unpopular belief that they couldn't practice magic -- wouldn't you say?
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Post by nordicfreyja88 on Nov 1, 2007 22:30:50 GMT -5
ok first of all...who the hell are gregory and jeffrey??? and how on earth did this discussion start because I always thought that Wyatt had been the first boy in the warren line, they do say that a lot in the show!!!! I admit I haven't seen all the eps from s 7 and 8 cause they haven't shown it here in iceland yet so I have to make do with whats online and I just got my comp so I haven't watched them alll but still.......am I missing something?  sry im tired and confused:S |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 2, 2007 0:45:42 GMT -5
The showed us that there were boys who were direct offspring of Melinda Warren - - in the episodes "Pardon My Past" and "Baby's First Demon," we see different versions of the Warren family tree, including male descendants of Melinda Warren (Gregory and Jeffrey are two of the names on at least one of those family trees).
And the only time it was stated that there were never boys born into the family was the comment made by Grams in "Necromancing the Stone" where she claimed that apparently only girls had been born into their family.
Aside from this being ridiculously implausible, it's likely that Grams simply meant that no male witches (at least, as far as she knew) had been born into their family. It also contradicts information that had been introduced only five episodes earlier (the family tree in "Baby's First Demon").
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Nov 3, 2007 2:43:16 GMT -5
Yes, partially; if Warren men in the Nineteenth Century were raised with fathers who never openly practiced magic, and mothers (and other matriarchs) who groomed their daughters to become powerful witches but told the boys they were incapable of being magical...that overall attitude could have been passed down to Grams, cementing her belief that men are "magically inferior" to women. If Warren boys, such as Gregory or Jeffrey, had been conditioned by their matriarchs to believe that they were "incapable" of being magical ("it's a girl thing")...and given how strong-willed and hard-headed the Warren women conceivably were throughout history...that would be quite an intimidating environment for those poor boys to challenge the unpopular belief that they couldn't practice magic -- wouldn't you say? After reading all of your explanations, I still find your theory not only hard to buy, but illogical. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 3, 2007 3:37:13 GMT -5
Really? Please elaborate on why you believe it's "illogical"?
And while you're at it, please explain to me what is so "logical" about the notion that thirteen generations of Warren offspring would be born throughout the centuries with absolutely no boys in the family?
So between 1670 and 2003, every Warren descendant was a girl?
Uh, huh. Sure.
And I suppose the producers would have kept that piece of "every-Warren-offspring-was-a-girl" backstory in mind when they constructed the two family trees that were utilized specifically for Charmed as props and shown onscreen in two different episodes...
Sorry, cookie -- you're going to have to do a lot better than that!
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Post by Assassin Witch on Nov 4, 2007 14:39:21 GMT -5
I don't think that every offspring was female; I think there were males (like Grams' brother), but I don't believe any of them had powers. I still believe that the powers that the boys have are from Leo's whitelighter/Elder side. Wyatt has a lot more because of his destiny as the Twice Blessed Son and King of Magic. Chris has orbing, TK, and not much else that we really know of, which works with Leo's side.
Plus, I still think your family tree is a soap opera and it's way too much for me, personally.
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Hansemand
Elder
He's looking at you kid.
Posts: 5,466
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Post by Hansemand on Nov 4, 2007 15:27:06 GMT -5
Who's to say if there has been male witches in the long line of their family. We all know how witchcraft was looked upon in the 17th to 20th century and even still today in the 21st.
People who was thought to be witches was believed to be in pact with the devil and was therefor killed either by burning or as they were in some places in Europe, beheaded.
Because of this the males kept it in secret that they were witches, a wise choice if you ask me.
I simply don't by that there was no male witches before Wyatt and Chris came along.
Perhaps its a male perspective, but all that with only female witches in the long history of their family just sound WAY to good to be true.
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