Pact with Demons

[whitelightertony]

No, but they are the most powerful source of Good with the potential to live up to that responsibility.

[vandergraafk]

Which takes us back to my pithy observation:

"You're only as good as your last vanquish!"

How will the Charmed Ones respond to the next challenge? Will they be thoughtful witches mindful of the perils of attacking in a manner consistent with their dark impulses? Or, will they reflect carefully on the nature of the challenge and apply their creative geniuses to crafting a novel method of dealing with a heretofore insurmountable challenge without succumbing to baser impulses?

The Avatar drama certainly pushed the Charmed Ones up against the boundary lines. They almost persisted in a really bad choice, one made with precious little evidence in favor of it and one that exposed their base desires - normality and a long-sought offspring - as very powerful forces indeed, ones that ultimately made have destroyed their role as forces for good.

[ljones]

No, but they are the most powerful source of Good with the potential to live up to that responsibility.

First of all, the series made it clear that they were supposed to be the most powerful witches. It said nothing about them being the most powerful magic practitioners . . . even of "Good". For all we know there are other magic practitioners (who are not witches) that might also be considered "Good".

[whitelightertony]

Then that shoots holes through your theory that Wyatt is more powerful than the Power of Three, doesn't it?

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

Then that shoots holes through your theory that Wyatt is more powerful than the Power of Three, doesn't it?

No Whitelightertony . . . it doesn't. Wyatt has nothing to do with my doubts about the Charmed Ones being the most powerful force of good.

I also believe that the Charmed Ones had ceased to be the most powerful witches with Wyatt's birth.

[vandergraafk]

Boy, I guess that's something that Melinda Warren hadn't foreseen. Of course, I'm not bothered by that. Her statement that there would be born three sister witches who would be the most powerful witches of all time is a self-fulfilling prophecy since from her mother, Melinda would have learned of the three sisters witches who had come from the future to save Charlotte and her child.

Since Wyatt was not even a twinkle in Piper's eye yet, how would Melinda have known anything about Wyatt? I just don't see the contradiction that you two are debating. The birth of Wyatt proves nothing more than the limitations of Melinda's own prophecy!

[whitelightertony]

No Whitelightertony . . . it doesn't. Wyatt has nothing to do with my doubts about the Charmed Ones being the most powerful force of good.

I also believe that the Charmed Ones had ceased to be the most powerful witches with Wyatt's birth.

So just to clarify: you believe the Charmed Ones were the most powerful witches up until the point when Wyatt was born? (at which point he picked up that torch?)

And to be clear: do you believe there is a more powerful form of Good than either the Charmed Ones or Wyatt?

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

No Whitelightertony . . . it doesn't. Wyatt has nothing to do with my doubts about the Charmed Ones being the most powerful force of good.

I also believe that the Charmed Ones had ceased to be the most powerful witches with Wyatt's birth.

So just to clarify: you believe the Charmed Ones were the most powerful witches up until the point when Wyatt was born? (at which point he picked up that torch?)

And to be clear: do you believe there is a more powerful form of Good than either the Charmed Ones or Wyatt?

Why is that so hard to believe? The Halliwells were only known as being the most powerful witches. Why would you assume that witches are the most powerful magic practicioners?

[Assassin Witch]

So, who would be the most powerful form of Good? The Elders?

[vandergraafk]

No, I don't believe it's the Elders either. They simply don't have that kind of power, a point that has been repeatedly made during the series. God? Witches and god, that's a rather unholy mix, especially since monotheistic religion has usually been the bug-bear of most Wiccans. The Council of Elders? Well, they may be able to talk with the demonic side, perhaps, but do they have god-like powers? I can't see why.

Let me turn the question around. Why does there have to be a most powerful force for Good? First, such an entity, if it existed, might absolve the rest of us from having to act in any way approaching good. We can just simply rely on the Charmed Ones or whomever to set things right. Maybe the Charmed Ones are simply a powerful force for good who, by example, can lead the rest of us toward a path of virtue and self-sacrifice. Wasn't that the message Lieutentant Morris was trying to convey to Inspector Sheridan?

[whitelightertony]

I still don't see how Wyatt alone is more powerful than the Power of Three together.

[vandergraafk]

Well, if it's any help. The Wyatt who appears in Imaginary Fiends is clearly capable of outdoing Paige and Phoebe. Now, I know the Power of Three never challenges him. But, the suggestion is implicit that they might not be able to defeat evil Wyatt.

Agreed. That's an alternative future. It's simply one possibility. In the main time line, perhaps Wyatt never becomes this powerful. I suppose that's the implication I take from Chris's playful chiding of Wyatt once the latter's powers are temporarily lost.

[whitelightertony]

Well, have we ever seen Wyatt (even Evil Future Wyatt) take on all three Charmed Ones in unison, successfully?

I always assumed that the reason Evil Future Wyatt becomes evil in "Chris Crossed" is because Piper dies during his adolescence (as Chris explains, in "Hyde School Reunion"), so Phoebe and Paige aren't strong enough to defeat Wyatt on their own (probably eventually leading to their deaths, since the tour guide refers to all three of the Charmed Ones eventually dying).

Once Wyatt's mother dies, the Power of Three no longer exists - - and Wyatt is free to become ultra-powerful without any fear of the consequences.

[vandergraafk]

And, there are no Elders to thwart him either.

[whitelightertony]

But I thought the consensus was that the future seen in "Chris Crossed" wasn't a result of the events from the "Oh My Goddess" timeline (i.e. the Titans killing all of the Elders)?

[vandergraafk]

Yes, I don't have a problem with that. There still don't appear to be any elders either capable of or available to thwarting this evil Wyatt. I wouldn't have any idea how that came to pass. Do you really think the Elders would have allowed a future Wyatt of this sort to wreak this much havoc?

Or maybe they tried to stop Wyatt and were unable. This might explain why Gideon was so worried about a future Wyatt. Perhaps this Wyatt was so angered over the loss of his mother and aunts that he vowed revenge, but then became so obsessed with revenge that he wanted power for power's sake. The Elders might have remained in hiding, as they would know full well that as a whitelighter Wyatt could

In fact, under this scenario, once Wyatt were killed or died of natural causes and the Elders could re-emerge to help repair the damage he had wrought. Moreover, they would have been strengthened in their conviction that relationships between whitelighters and witches should never ever be allowed again!

[ljones]

I think that Wyatt was more powerful than the Charmed Ones. That's it for me.

[whitelightertony]

Thank you for that wonderfully articulate and well thought-out response, ljones.

VG, I find your theory about the Elders being forced to go into hiding intriguing. This would especially be plausible if Wyatt, mad with power, killed several of them, scaring the Council of Elders badly enough that they reached a consensus to flee from the heavens.

[vandergraafk]

One could speculate. That's why I, for one, do not believe Charmed to be "over" in any meaningful sense. Given alternative futures, many scenarios can be played out. This certainly is one intriguing one.

[whitelightertony]

Well, also, Dumain obviously had access to some visions of the alternate future seen in "Chris-Crossed" (since he showed it to Billie and Christy, via hologram, in Season 8).