new generation

[Ashiee Pie]

does anyone know what paige and pheobe's kids names are? and pipers daughter??

i was just wondering

[SidneyAce]

All i know is that when Piper went to the future her Girl's name was Melinda and when she thought she was going to have a girl in season 5 she decided to name her Prue so my guess is that her future girl will be named Prue.

[Esmeralda]

To put it simply, we don't know. Typical Brad Kern, we know the name of all of the sisters' sons: Wyatt, Chris and Henry, Jr, and that one of Leo's grandsons was named Matthew, but we don't know the name of any of the girls. It's one of many, *many* reasons why I think that Kern is a male chauvinistic pig who should have been the *last* person to be the show's executive producer once Constance Burge was gone, since he took a female-centric show and made it male-centric.

And, yes, there was an article in Charmed magazine where he said what some of the names are, but that doesn't count--I'm guessing he only came up with those names after fans complained that he didn't give names for any of the females. He obviously couldn't care less--they weren't male.

Here's an example of how dreadful of a job Kern did--a lot of fans don't even think Piper's daughter *is* her daughter. Since Piper never gave her a name during her "life summary" and since the daughter is never mentioned when Wyatt and Chris show up during "Forever Charmed" and since the daughter isn't on the infamous wall, those fans think that the girl you see following Wyatt and Chris is one of Phoebe's or one of Paige's--Wyatt and Chris' cousin, not their sister. And although I think she's their sister, I think those fans have very good points and I wouldn't argue very long or very hard with them.

[whitelightertony]

Short version: Kern has confirmed that Piper's daughter is named Melinda. Piper may have given Melinda the middle name of "Prudence."

Paige's children and Phoebe's daughters went unnamed by the show's producers.

Since Piper never gave her a name during her "life summary" and since the daughter is never mentioned when Wyatt and Chris show up during "Forever Charmed" and since the daughter isn't on the infamous wall, those fans think that the girl you see following Wyatt and Chris is one of Phoebe's or one of Paige's--Wyatt and Chris' cousin, not their sister.

Melinda is identified by name in the script of "Forever Charmed" and in The Book of Three: Vol. 2. Fans who insist that Piper was sending a niece off to school with Wyatt and Chris are delusional.

Just because adult Melinda never appeared in the flashforwards doesn't mean she didn't exist.

[colehellsangel]

Paige's Son is said to be Henry Jr., her twin girls and Phoebe's three girls are unnamed.

Oh and I heard that Brad Kern said on the season eight extras or somewhere that the little grand daughter at the end of the show whom Grams Piper is reading the book to is Prudence. But that's it.

[Assassin Witch]

whitelightertony said:

Melinda is identified by name in the script of "Forever Charmed" and in The Book of Three: Vol. 2. Fans who insist that Piper was sending a niece off to school with Wyatt and Chris are delusional.

sweet. I'm a Harry/Hermione fan from Harry Potter, so I'll stick with my delusions because I love them so much more than what Kern and Jo make.

[spiritsas]

I think Coleh and Es summed it up as to what is known or known after the fact. As to why Phoebe's kids and Henry's are not named (and the fact that they are all girls), could that Kern was being too male-centric or he didn't think up any in time (how long would it have taken, really), or he just didn't care about that nuance as much as the fans do. What's done is done. However, just because Kern didn't get around to it, doesn't mean that we, the fans, can't speculate a few choice names. It's not easy as some names come from the other characters or the ancesters, one is just Henry Jr., and others are unknown. For example, we know Wyatt draws his name from Leo's last name, but where does Chris get his name?

So, whatever names Phoebe gave her girls or Paige her two girls, we can only speculate whether they stuck with tradition or not.

[pipercharmedphreak]

Chris gets his name from Leo's father. We get that info in "It's a Bad Bad Bad Bad World Part 2"

[Esmeralda]

Yep, she's right about that one, which is why I tend to think that the other kids would also be named for people in the past. It's why in my own version, "Charmed Forever", I have Phoebe continue the tradition and her three daughters are named after her mother, her sister and her grandmother who have died: Patty, Prue and Penny (they're also the next set of Charmed Ones, since they're three sisters descended from Melinda Warren who can harness the Power of Three, which is what makes them Charmed) and I have Paige and Henry name their twin daughters, Charlotte and Cassandra, after Melinda Warren's mother and granddaughter. Piper's daughter is Melinda after Melinda Warren herself. I would've let Piper call her daughter Prue, but wanted Phoebe's to all be P's. So I'm saying that Melinda is the youngest of the next generation of Halliwells and since the name Prue was already used, that's why she's Melinda and not Prudence.

But those are very simply from my own imagination, which I used in my own fic. For *all* of those names, fans can use what they want. Even if other names/relationships were in the script or Kern says otherwise, as long as they weren't actually spoken on the show, it means that Kern didn't find it important enough, so nothing says we have to follow what he says--it's not canon unless it was actually part of the show.

[Esmeralda]

Yep, she's right about that one, which is why I tend to think that the other kids would also be named for people in the past. It's why in my own version, "Charmed Forever", I have Phoebe and Coop continue the tradition and their three daughters are named after Phoebe's mother, sister and grandmother who have died: Patty, Prue and Penny, and I have Paige and Henry name their twin daughters, Charlotte and Cassandra, after Melinda Warren's mother and granddaughter. Piper's daughter is Melinda after Melinda Warren herself. I would've let Piper call her daughter Prue, but wanted Phoebe's to all be P's. So I'm saying that Melinda is the youngest of the next generation of Halliwells and since the name Prue was already used, that's why she's Melinda and not Prudence.

But those are very simply from my own imagination, which I used in my own fic. For *all* of those names/relationships, fans can use what they want. Even if other names/relationships were in the script or Kern says otherwise, as long as they weren't actually spoken on the show, it means that Kern didn't find it important enough, so nothing says we have to follow what he says--it's not canon unless it was actually part of the show. If fans want to accept what he says, then it will eventually become fanon, but it's not canon just because he says so afterwards; not if it's not important enough to actually make it a part of the show.

[colehellsangel]

esmeralda said:

Yep, she's right about that one, which is why I tend to think that the other kids would also be named for people in the past. It's why in my own version, "Charmed Forever", I have Phoebe continue the tradition and her three daughters are named after her mother, her sister and her grandmother who have died: Patty, Prue and Penny (they're also the next set of Charmed Ones, since they're three sisters descended from Melinda Warren who can harness the Power of Three, which is what makes them Charmed) and I have Paige and Henry name their twin daughters, Charlotte and Cassandra, after Melinda Warren's mother and granddaughter. Piper's daughter is Melinda after Melinda Warren herself. I would've let Piper call her daughter Prue, but wanted Phoebe's to all be P's. So I'm saying that Melinda is the youngest of the next generation of Halliwells and since the name Prue was already used, that's why she's Melinda and not Prudence.

But those are very simply from my own imagination, which I used in my own fic. For *all* of those names, fans can use what they want. Even if other names/relationships were in the script or Kern says otherwise, as long as they weren't actually spoken on the show, it means that Kern didn't find it important enough, so nothing says we have to follow what he says--it's not canon unless it was actually part of the show.

I loved your Charmed Forever Es, and I love that you had them name their children after their ancestors. I love when they leave stuff like this open for us fans to fill in the holes.

[Ashiee Pie]

thanks for your help!!

you guys had great explinations =]

[whitelightertony]

Yep, she's right about that one, which is why I tend to think that the other kids would also be named for people in the past. It's why in my own version, "Charmed Forever", I have Phoebe continue the tradition and her three daughters are named after her mother, her sister and her grandmother who have died: Patty, Prue and Penny (they're also the next set of Charmed Ones, since they're three sisters descended from Melinda Warren who can harness the Power of Three, which is what makes them Charmed) and I have Paige and Henry name their twin daughters, Charlotte and Cassandra, after Melinda Warren's mother and granddaughter. Piper's daughter is Melinda after Melinda Warren herself. I would've let Piper call her daughter Prue, but wanted Phoebe's to all be P's. So I'm saying that Melinda is the youngest of the next generation of Halliwells and since the name Prue was already used, that's why she's Melinda and not Prudence.

I thought you'd said you believe everything seen in "Forever Charmed" was part of Piper's fantasy while she's burning on the pyre?

But those are very simply from my own imagination, which I used in my own fic. For *all* of those names, fans can use what they want. Even if other names/relationships were in the script or Kern says otherwise, as long as they weren't actually spoken on the show, it means that Kern didn't find it important enough, so nothing says we have to follow what he says--it's not canon unless it was actually part of the show.

No, it means it was edited out for time constraints.

But what does it matter anyway, if the children seen in "Forever Charmed" were all just figments of Piper's imagination as the final thing she conceived of during "The Perils of Piper"....?

[spiritsas]

I don't think they were figments of Piper's imagination. I think that we were hearing a little of what each sister wrote in the book. Presumably, it was over time and not all done that day she sat down with her sisters. Plus, it is Piper (grandmother Piper) in the future reading what has been written over the years to her granddaughter, though it could be a great granddaughter too (though I have been outvoted on this last idea).

Also, I agree that those were excellent and fitting names Es proposed. I've got no problems with them at all.

[spiritsas]

PS PiperC-phreak: Thanks for the reminder on Chris' name.

[bevm]

And, yes, there was an article in Charmed magazine where he said what some of the names are, but that doesn't count--I'm guessing he only came up with those names after fans complained that he didn't give names for any of the females. He obviously couldn't care less--they weren't male.

Do you have the copy of the magazine anywhere? T'would be interesting to know what he THOUGHT they should be called... bloody Kern.

[whitelightertony]

I don't think they were figments of Piper's imagination. I think that we were hearing a little of what each sister wrote in the book. Presumably, it was over time and not all done that day she sat down with her sisters. Plus, it is Piper (grandmother Piper) in the future reading what has been written over the years to her granddaughter, though it could be a great granddaughter too (though I have been outvoted on this last idea).

I know that. But Esmerelda insists that all of Season 8 was a product of Piper's fantasy/imagination while the Charmed Ones burn on the pyre in the future. Apparently, "The Perils of Piper" actually ends with the events of "Something Wicca This Way Goes?", with the Charmed Ones walking away with glamoured identities and never returning to visit Wyatt, Chris, or Victor ever again...apparently, that causes Wyatt to turn against his mother and aunts and be directly or indirectly responsible for their deaths in the future.

[Esmeralda]

whitelightertony said:

Yep, she's right about that one, which is why I tend to think that the other kids would also be named for people in the past. It's why in my own version, "Charmed Forever", I have Phoebe continue the tradition and her three daughters are named after her mother, her sister and her grandmother who have died: Patty, Prue and Penny (they're also the next set of Charmed Ones, since they're three sisters descended from Melinda Warren who can harness the Power of Three, which is what makes them Charmed) and I have Paige and Henry name their twin daughters, Charlotte and Cassandra, after Melinda Warren's mother and granddaughter. Piper's daughter is Melinda after Melinda Warren herself. I would've let Piper call her daughter Prue, but wanted Phoebe's to all be P's. So I'm saying that Melinda is the youngest of the next generation of Halliwells and since the name Prue was already used, that's why she's Melinda and not Prudence.

I thought you'd said you believe everything seen in "Forever Charmed" was part of Piper's fantasy while she's burning on the pyre?

But those are very simply from my own imagination, which I used in my own fic. For *all* of those names, fans can use what they want. Even if other names/relationships were in the script or Kern says otherwise, as long as they weren't actually spoken on the show, it means that Kern didn't find it important enough, so nothing says we have to follow what he says--it's not canon unless it was actually part of the show.

No, it means it was edited out for time constraints.

But what does it matter anyway, if the children seen in "Forever Charmed" were all just figments of Piper's imagination as the final thing she conceived of during "The Perils of Piper"....?

Sorry, Tony--I didn't see this until later. It wasn't until recently that I realized that the entire Season 8 is Piper's fantasy as she burns on the stake--it was when I read someone else's post about something to do with S7 that I went BINGO!

Before that, Forever Charmed bothered the crap out of me because it was SOOO inconsistent with the rest of Charmed and left me wondering:

1. How both Piper and Billie survived that explosion at the end of "Kill Billie Vol 2" without a broken bone

2. Why the Hollow didn’t go out of Piper and Billie until a being of good and a being of evil said the spell on the Hollow’s box

3. How Piper and Dumain, both non-cupids, were able to use a cupid’s ring, which is only used to amplify and direct a cupid's power

3. Why we only saw Piper and Leo as old and not Phoebe, Coop, Paige or Henry

4. Why Old Piper and Old Leo in the future knew what Piper and Leo were going to do, but Wyatt and Chris had no idea and neither did S6 Chris

5. Why Patty’s idea of 3 generations of Halliwells tapping into The Power of Three worked, when only three sisters descended from Melinda Warren are supposed to be able to tap into The Power of Three

6. Why Grams didn’t recognize Piper from "That 70’s Episode" when she said a spell to delete it from Little Prue and Little Piper's memory, not from hers and Patty's

7. Why Wyatt ever had his powers in the future, if he’d lost them to the Jenkinses as a toddler

8. Why Henry wasn’t part of the final all-generation hug and why Chris didn't hug Leo

9. How The Charmed Ones were able to write down what would happen in the future when they hadn’t lived it yet

10. How Leo, an ex-whitelighter mortal, could possibly handle magical children while trying to teach them

so during the summer after the finale, I wrote my own version of the finale, Charmed Forever, where Paige is the only one who survives because she panic-orbs; she continues to be possessed by the Hollow until Coop (a being of good) and Dumain (a being of bad) say the spell on the Hollow box (just before Paige almost drops Baby Chris to his death); Coop uses his ring to Paige on the time travel trip where they first find Patty pregnant with Phoebe and letting her think that Paige is Prue, then find all three old couples playing Scrabble in the future and who tell them that the Seer lied when she said that only saying that spell on the box could get rid of the Hollow, so after going and finding Grams (who realizes that Paige isn't Prue and figures out who she is because the spirit of Patty keeps an eye on little Paige and tells Grams about her), who brings Young Piper along with them, so it's Paige, Little Piper and Fetus Phoebs who use the Power of Three ("The Power of Three shall set us free") to travel to the time of the Ultimate Battle and actually vanquish the Hollow, also vanquishing Wyatt's power, bringing the Piper's kids back because Piper has written in the Book of Shadows that they need them to help get Wyatt's powers back which in turn will help her get Leo back--and they do when Wyatt realizes that just like Chris (who still remembers his trip to the past in S6, since just like the way Paige blurred into Past Paige when the two timelines came together, when Chris appeared to die in S6, he was actually blurring into Baby Chris, who was born at the same time), rather than vanquishing Billie and Christy, it works better if Coop uses his ring to bring them back to the past, let them blur into themselves and then vanquish Dumain before he can kidnap Christy and turn her evil, which is just as well, because it's discovered that the Jenkinses are the sisters' second cousin--their grandfather was Grams' third husband, which in turn is what allows the Angel of Destiny to give Leo back to Piper, along with a special reward for each sister (setting up what we saw at the end of Forever Charmed)--Leo gets an identity so he doesn't have to continue to be Piper's errand boy, and so he can go back to school and become a doctor; Piper gets her wish of a normal life for her and her sisters and their kids during the 20-year demon truce (which the Angel of Destiny enforces by also binding *their* powers); Paige becomes the first mortal to become a whitelighter without having to die *and* the Elders can't jingle her and Phoebe gets a now-mortal Coop as her husband, so she no longer has a forbidden love (Coop told Paige that he fibbed to Phoebe about the Elders sending him to her--they didn't; Cole did!). And after Coop brings Patty, Grams and Young Piper back to their time (using his Cupid powers--which he still has--to erase their memories) and the kids use the time-travel spell to return to their memory, everyone decides to play Scrabble! Then there's an epilogue--right after Paige, Coop and Patty leave to find Grams, the Charmed Ones decide to write in the Book of Shadows, telling what I wrote above. Unlike Kern's, mine makes sense and is consistent with the rest of Charmed.

But as I said, that's what I came up with two years ago. I now *do* believe that S8 is very simply Piper's fantasy as she burns on the stake; that she and her sisters and Leo *did* leave glamoured, continued to use their powers for their own personal use and got caught, sending them to the pyres and their sons (with no one magical to teach them properly--they walk all over Leo and Victor) becoming the new Source of all Evil and his henchman--the new Shax.

[spiritsas]

Es: That's a very dark ending to the story. However, it opens up more options for spinoffs.

I too don't think any of S8 was some Piper fantasy. Where does this idea come from anyway?

I also looked at your 10, call them inconsistencies above, and although I can see you point on many, some are totally explainable.

For example: 9. How The Charmed Ones were able to write down what would happen in the future when they hadn’t lived it yet.

Well they didn't. What we were seeing/hearing was not so much what they wrote down right then (you can never allow yourself to be so litteral with TCO), but what was written down over the years and being read by Old Piper in the future to her grandaughter. You have to stretch the imagination to see it's just a movie/TV tool that has been used in many other shows and movies, when jumping to the future and trying to show some of the story along the way, as to what happens to the characters. Not really that far fetched as a visual and story telling device.

[Esmeralda]

spiritkas said:

Es: That's a very dark ending to the story. However, it opens up more options for spinoffs.

I too don't think any of S8 was some Piper fantasy. Where does this idea come from anyway?

I also looked at your 10, call them inconsistencies above, and although I can see you point on many, some are totally explainable.

For example: 9. How The Charmed Ones were able to write down what would happen in the future when they hadn’t lived it yet.

Well they didn't. What we were seeing/hearing was not so much what they wrote down right then (you can never allow yourself to be so litteral with TCO), but what was written down over the years and being read by Old Piper in the future to her grandaughter. You have to stretch the imagination to see it's just a movie/TV tool that has been used in many other shows and movies, when jumping to the future and trying to show some of the story along the way, as to what happens to the characters. Not really that far fetched as a visual and story telling device.

Back when I was writing "Charmed Forever", before I became convinced that S8 is all just Piper's fantasy, my thing against that was their going back to show each sister writing in the Book and speaking when it was so very obvious that that *wasn't* what they were writing. If they weren't going to do that, they should've shown each sister old, which I would've preferred, since then we'd know that Piper wasn't the only one who lived long enough to have grandchildren, writing it out, which is what usually happens when shows do stuff like this. Naturally our show went cheap, not paying for the makeup necessary to make Piper, Paige and Phoebe all look old, which I also would've preferred over the use of other actors to play Piper and Leo, especially when Old Leo looked nothing like Brian Krause.

Now with how horribly Piper-centric Forever Charmed was (the reason why I originally thought that *that* was Piper's fantasy, until I realized that the whole season was), it would've made just as much sense if you had first shown *Piper* writing in the book, then let it dissolve to showing her reading to her granddaughter and her saying the first line to her granddaughter and then we'd heard the voice of Phoebe or Paige reading the other, then it would've made sense, besides being the perfect ending for "The Perils of Piper"

And whenever you have to take the time to explain inconsistencies as you did, then it shows how dreadful the writing was, as proven by the fact that in *my* version, you didn't have to do that. And if you'd left out all the scenes that didn't include at least one Charmed One (proper for a finale and which is what I did) AND skip that horrible !@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@! wall at the end, there would've been enough time to do it all my way.