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Post by ghostrider on Jan 7, 2010 19:38:19 GMT -5
During my table hopping here at The Cafe, I have noticed that much has been commented on the use of magic for personal gain. Some are vehemently opposed to it, others think it might be okay depending on the situation. I tend to agree with the latter.
My decision to open this thread can be credited to LJones, do to her comment on the (If You Had The Choice thread)
Posted by ljones on Today at 3:32pm
For the most part I have to concur with LJ here, as I too did not have a lot of problems with this, since without it they very well could have ended up dead and the whole point of them being who they were would have been for nothing. I also feel that she is correct about the misuse of power if they did use it to deliberately harm others and to avoid the consequences of their actions. Though I might add that at times they seemed to be ignorant of the out-come of the simple mundane things....like the nasty fruit dilemma, and or not keeping a better eye on the powerful little magical brat who can do strange things while watching television but is not yet potty trained. Hence, some of the rabbits they had to pull out of various hats to correct mishaps, could be contributed to their ignorance of their own abilities and how their actions affected, shall we say, the domino theory? I will call it a learning curve.
Okay, sorry...I digress. The direction of this tread is about personal gain and what situations members feel were warranted and those they feel were totally off target and completely against wiccian code. For example....getting the numbers to a lottery ticket is suppose to be BAD. Well, lets put a hypothetical spin on this. If they did this to take a trip to Europe to go shopping, then yes....big personal gain...but, what if they did it to rebuild a children's cancer hospital that a pack of demons had demolished. How would you feel about that? Should they be punished?
Using magic to secure a higher position in your place of employment...BAD. But what if this was done so that you could then step down and had the power to put the person you know should be there for the better good. In the end there would be no personal gain. In short, I think intentions should be taken into account.
So...specifically what incidents do you think were in the end for the better good and which do you really think they planned to do just for selfish reasons?
On the lighter-side. Almost all of Samantha and mother Endora's magic moved in the direction of person gain. Do you think that if mother popped in and said Samantha darling lets go shopping in Paris today and lunch in Rome....you would say no?
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Post by CharmedFaith on Jan 7, 2010 20:52:46 GMT -5
Im just going to say this about personal gain, how I view it.
If you use her powers to get you further in life (ala Phoebes premintion of the lottery numbers) thats personal gain.
Use your powers to move some objects around in your house? personal gain but not in the big sense and I could care less about it.
Using your powers to make some balloons pop open on someones head? Or putting their dogs crap on their shoes for letting their dogs poop on your lawn? Could care less about it.
And for the most part I think thats what they meant to get across in the show for the most part. They may not have made it clear but thats most likely what they meant. Because you know what? Dont matter who you are. In the long run you are going to end up using your powers for personal gain one way or another. You may not mean to, but it will happen.
And if Endora invited me on a trip to Paris or wherever, hell ya I would take her up on her offer and pop on over there with her.
The Elders didnt make witches and didnt give them their powers. Witches were born with their powers. Its part of who they are. Just look at Sabrina The Teenaged Witch.
And its kind of like how lj doesnt understand why witches think they have to "demon" hunt just because they are witches, well the same thing can be said about their powers. Why do they have to necessarly use their powers for the good of mankind?
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Post by Quadquetra on Jan 7, 2010 20:59:07 GMT -5
Im just going to say this about personal gain, how I view it. If you use her powers to get you further in life (ala Phoebes premintion of the lottery numbers) thats personal gain. Use your powers to move some objects around in your house? personal gain but not in the big sense and I could care less about it. Using your powers to make some balloons pop open on someones head? Or putting their dogs crap on their shoes for letting their dogs poop on your lawn? Could care less about it. And for the most part I think thats what they meant to get across in the show for the most part. They may not have made it clear but thats most likely what they meant. Because you know what? Dont matter who you are. In the long run you are going to end up using your powers for personal gain one way or another. You may not mean to, but it will happen. And if Endora invited me on a trip to Paris or wherever, hell ya I would take her up on her offer and pop on over there with her. Hahaha Go Faith and I love the Endora comment I agree with everything Faith said. I cant stand when peoples underwear get into a bunch when they do something even slightly related to personal gain. The powers they had belonged to them and theirs to use. And if you look at the Wiccan reed they had it said "Harm none Do as ye will" So it seems to me as long as they aren't hurting anyone besides demons the powers are theirs to do with what they please. |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Jan 7, 2010 23:05:48 GMT -5
For the most part I have to concur with LJ here, as I too did not have a lot of problems with this, since without it they very well could have ended up dead and the whole point of them being who they were would have been for nothing. I also feel that she is correct about the misuse of power if they did use it to deliberately harm others and to avoid the consequences of their actions. That goes back to "Harm ye none, do what ye will." Prue using her powers to make a mobile for Matthew, Piper freezing a woman so she wouldn't touch her pregnant stomach, Phoebe levitating to dust off the chandelier, and Paige using her powers to orb a pencil and paper into her hand are all examples of personal gain but they don't actually harm anyone. Under those circumstances, I'm not particularly opposed to them using their magic. But then we get into areas where they use their magic for definite acts of personal gain: Prue using her power to make the elevator skip every floor but her own and Phoebe attempting to win the lottery because she got the numbers by seeing the future, and Prue and Phoebe using spells to keep circumvent Piper's death. These types of personal gain may not seem like they hurt other people, but they have the potential to. For example, what if someone in that elevator lost out on a job interview for being late because Prue used her powers to give herself an advantage instead of waiting her turn? And with Phoebe, the lottery is a game of chance. It's obviously unfair for her to be able to play when she already knows the outcome, because then there is no chance and people who've played by the rules become the losers. Now I'm no gambler, but if she had won, she would've had to split the jackpot with the elderly people, right? Which would have been unfair to them. They were already going to buy that lottery ticket, they just happened to take Phoebe's advice on the numbers. They played the game of chance fairly, but she did not, and it wouldn't have been right for her to take half of their winnings just because she had an advantage. And in the case of Piper, her sisters used magic to keep her alive despite that her own selfish actions had caused her to nearly die to start with. She broke the rules and the bite was her consequence, which should not have come with a magical get out of jail free card. In doing so, this type of personal gain resulted in a backfire of unintentionally hurting people. Then there are blatant areas of misuse like using magic to harm people: Prue using her magic to trip Andy with the cake cart, or Prue using her powers to shove her father into the wall, or Prue using her powers on Alice, or Phoebe killing Cal Greene with her powers, or Phoebe and Paige turning Rick into Chris so that he would get killed by the demons that were after Chris, or Chris murdering the Valkarie (sp?) to keep his secret, or Super Brat using his god-like powers to essentially become a San Francisco/world king and kill everyone that opposes him. And finally there are "gray areas," where powers are used to punish/get vengeance even though they may not necessarily "hurt" someone physically: Piper, Piper, and Phoebe punishing Nathaniel Pratt by throwing dog poop on his shoe, Prue using her powers to torment Missy, and Phoebe turning a fellow reporter into a turkey. While none of those necessarily "hurt" or killed anyone, they have the potential to create a chain reaction as seen in "Morality Bites." Because if the sisters and anyone else magical is allowed to punish people with their magic for "small things," then where does it end? Don't they always have the right to take it upon themselves to punish people for whatever crimes they've decided someone has committed? The direction of this tread is about personal gain and what situations members feel were warranted and those they feel were totally off target and completely against wiccian code. For example....getting the numbers to a lottery ticket is suppose to be BAD. Well, lets put a hypothetical spin on this. If they did this to take a trip to Europe to go shopping, then yes....big personal gain...but, what if they did it to rebuild a children's cancer hospital that a pack of demons had demolished. How would you feel about that? Should they be punished? Using magic to secure a higher position in your place of employment...BAD. But what if this was done so that you could then step down and had the power to put the person you know should be there for the better good. In the end there would be no personal gain. In short, I think intentions should be taken into account. But that's basically the same lesson we already learned when Phoebe had a premonition of the lottery number. While she obtained the number, it was never meant for her. She passed it onto someone else - just as in your scenarios the money and the promotion are both passed onto someone else - and even though she tried to keep it herself, it wasn't meant for her so her numbers disappeared. So...specifically what incidents do you think were in the end for the better good and which do you really think they planned to do just for selfish reasons? So I guess in answer to your question, I find true personal gain - as defined by the Wiccan Rede - to be anything that gives magical people A) an unfair advantage, B) anything that hurts someone (physically/emotionally/advantageously/etc...), and C) anything that outright punishes/exacts vengeance/takes "law" into their own hands. On the lighter-side. Almost all of Samantha and mother Endora's magic moved in the direction of person gain. Do you think that if mother popped in and said Samantha darling lets go shopping in Paris today and lunch in Rome....you would say no? And if Endora invited me on a trip to Paris or wherever, hell ya I would take her up on her offer and pop on over there with her. I haven't seen Betwitched in a looong time, but I'm pretty sure the rules of magic for the worlds of Charmed and Bewitched are different. But having said that, Endora going on a sudden shopping trip in Paris is no different than Piper and Leo or Paige and Henry orbing away on their honeymoons. Orbing in and of itself is one of those things that "harms ye none." Now you might be able to say it gives you an advantage (no layovers or long flights), but not in a way that harms anyone in the long run. Orbing to Italy for vacation is not like magically cheating on a college entry exam where only so many students will be accepted based on their grades, for example. Orbing to Paris for a shopping trip doesn't give you an unfair advantage...unless you put on some designer clothes in the dressing room and orb home with them to keep. Orbing to Rome for lunch isn't really a bad thing, unless you've gone to eat and orb out without paying. The Elders didnt make witches and didnt give them their powers. Witches were born with their powers. Its part of who they are. Just look at Sabrina The Teenaged Witch. Agreed. And its kind of like how lj doesnt understand why witches think they have to "demon" hunt just because they are witches, well the same thing can be said about their powers. Why do they have to necessarly use their powers for the good of mankind? If they get to use them any way they want, though, that's what leads to the "Morality Bites" universe. The sisters used their magic to create spells for money and all other kinds of personal gain that gave them an advantage over the rest of the world. Then somewhere along the way, they decided that they could also become judge, jury, and executioner for the things they deemed as wrong. Maybe they shouldn't have to use them solely for the good of mankind - "do what ye will" - but they still shouldn't be allowed to use them any way they want (punishment, unfair advantage, harm, etc) - make sure to "Harm ye none." |
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Post by ljones on Jan 8, 2010 2:32:55 GMT -5
I would define Prue's actions on the elevator and Phoebe's actions with the lottery ticket as examples of going against the adage "Harm ye none, do what ye will.". As Fourever Charmed pointed out, Prue's use of magic on the elevator could have caused problems for a fellow passenger, whose floor had been skipped. And Phoebe would have ended up robbing the real winner of that particular lottery.
As for using magic to cure Piper, I guess I would put that under the category of ensuring that Piper did not pay the consequences of her actions. After all, Piper knew she had illegally purchased fruit that had not been inspected by Customs. Surely, she could have considered the danger of that.
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pixiesunbelle
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Post by pixiesunbelle on Jan 9, 2010 11:39:29 GMT -5
I think that TCO follows a different set of rules than other magical creatures in their universe because of who they are. Like, Sabrina- if she was in TCO's universe and dressing by snapping her fingers, etc she wouldn't be doing something wrong- but if TCO did such a thing it would be considered personal gain because of who they are.
The Wiccan rule is a rule set in which a witch serves herself as long as it does no harm to others.
However, TCO is supposed to be only serving those they are protecting- not themselves. They live by a different rule than other witches do.
But, that is just the way i understand it.
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Post by Quadquetra on Jan 9, 2010 15:06:26 GMT -5
I agree with most of the opinions above. But here is my stance where it doesn't bother me about saving Piper or flinging the reporters or even just household things. The powers belong to them and are theirs to use.
But some people put these girls on such a pedestal where they aren't supposed to do anything that's considered bad. But these girls are mortal as well as witch, they were not raised to be perfect wiccan examples, heck they weren't even raised with their powers. And also if it had been my sibling that was killed I would do anything possible to get them back, it may be an unfair advantage to others but its your siblings and you'll do whatever it takes, that's why stuff like that doesn't bother me, because they are human and I would have done the same thing. Bottom line the Charmed ones arent perfect and never claimed to be.
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pixiesunbelle
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Post by pixiesunbelle on Jan 10, 2010 2:55:10 GMT -5
I agree with most of the opinions above. But here is my stance where it doesn't bother me about saving Piper or flinging the reporters or even just household things. The powers belong to them and are theirs to use. But some people put these girls on such a pedestal where they aren't supposed to do anything that's considered bad. But these girls are mortal as well as witch, they were not raised to be perfect wiccan examples, heck they weren't even raised with their powers. And also if it had been my sibling that was killed I would do anything possible to get them back, it may be an unfair advantage to others but its your siblings and you'll do whatever it takes, that's why stuff like that doesn't bother me, because they are human and I would have done the same thing. Bottom line the Charmed ones arent perfect and never claimed to be. I agree with that. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 10, 2010 11:28:22 GMT -5
I agree with most of the opinions above. But here is my stance where it doesn't bother me about saving Piper or flinging the reporters or even just household things. The powers belong to them and are theirs to use. But some people put these girls on such a pedestal where they aren't supposed to do anything that's considered bad. But these girls are mortal as well as witch, they were not raised to be perfect wiccan examples, heck they weren't even raised with their powers. And also if it had been my sibling that was killed I would do anything possible to get them back, it may be an unfair advantage to others but its your siblings and you'll do whatever it takes, that's why stuff like that doesn't bother me, because they are human and I would have done the same thing. Bottom line the Charmed ones arent perfect and never claimed to be. If they hadn't had the episode "Morality Bites", I'd probably agree with you. But since that show is part of the canon, I can't. I *am* one of those ones who put the sisters on a pedastal, because I do believe that with great powers comes great responsibilities, even under duress. Particularly when the first season showed that if the powers were used wrong, there would be consequences, that is something that should've continued and didn't as the sisters became less like potential whitelighters who deserved their powers to potential darklighters who didn't. |
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pixiesunbelle
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Post by pixiesunbelle on Jan 10, 2010 11:44:58 GMT -5
I agree with most of the opinions above. But here is my stance where it doesn't bother me about saving Piper or flinging the reporters or even just household things. The powers belong to them and are theirs to use. But some people put these girls on such a pedestal where they aren't supposed to do anything that's considered bad. But these girls are mortal as well as witch, they were not raised to be perfect wiccan examples, heck they weren't even raised with their powers. And also if it had been my sibling that was killed I would do anything possible to get them back, it may be an unfair advantage to others but its your siblings and you'll do whatever it takes, that's why stuff like that doesn't bother me, because they are human and I would have done the same thing. Bottom line the Charmed ones arent perfect and never claimed to be. If they hadn't had the episode "Morality Bites", I'd probably agree with you. But since that show is part of the canon, I can't. I *am* one of those ones who put the sisters on a pedastal, because I do believe that with great powers comes great responsibilities, even under duress. Particularly when the first season showed that if the powers were used wrong, there would be consequences, that is something that should've continued and didn't as the sisters became less like potential whitelighters who deserved their powers to potential darklighters who didn't. You can't expect them to be tempted to not be perfect- they are not another species; they are human. This means they will inevitably make mistakes- and they did make them obviously. The Elders never said they would not make mistakes. However, Esmerelda I do agree with you that TCO has a different set of rules to follow than normal witches. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 10, 2010 13:35:59 GMT -5
If they hadn't had the episode "Morality Bites", I'd probably agree with you. But since that show is part of the canon, I can't. I *am* one of those ones who put the sisters on a pedastal, because I do believe that with great powers comes great responsibilities, even under duress. Particularly when the first season showed that if the powers were used wrong, there would be consequences, that is something that should've continued and didn't as the sisters became less like potential whitelighters who deserved their powers to potential darklighters who didn't. You can't expect them to be tempted to not be perfect- they are not another species; they are human. This means they will inevitably make mistakes- and they did make them obviously. The Elders never said they would not make mistakes. However, Esmerelda I do agree with you that TCO has a different set of rules to follow than normal witches. I agree. ANd I would expect them to make mistakes and I'd expect there to be consequences and I'd expect them to learn from their mistakes, not be rewarded for them. That's what I couldn't stand about the last 3 seasons. |
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Post by ljones on Jan 10, 2010 23:34:05 GMT -5
I don't expect the sisters to be perfect. But I do expect for them to acknowledge when they have done something seriously wrong. Unfortunately, the Halliwells tend to acknowledge some of their smaller mistakes - like Phoebe using her precognition to find the future father of her child. But when it came to actions like their killing a possessed Cole in "Long Live the Queen" without bothering to find out what really happened to him, Piper breaking Federal law by purchasing fruit that had not been inspected by Customs, Paige and Phoebe stealing Darryl's soul, and also Paige and Phoebe setting up Rick Gittridge to be murdered by demons; they were either excused or easily dismissed.
The sisters did acknowledge that their actions in "Extreme Makeover" were wrong. But the wrong they had acknowledged was that the world cannot only be "good". They never acknowledged that it was wrong to use magic on the world's population without anyone's consent.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 11, 2010 20:34:46 GMT -5
I don't expect the sisters to be perfect. But I do expect for them to acknowledge when they have done something seriously wrong. Unfortunately, the Halliwells tend to acknowledge some of their smaller mistakes - like Phoebe using her precognition to find the future father of her child. But when it came to actions like their killing a possessed Cole in "Long Live the Queen" without bothering to find out what really happened to him, Piper breaking Federal law by purchasing fruit that had not been inspected by Customs, Paige and Phoebe stealing Darryl's soul, and also Paige and Phoebe setting up Rick Gittridge to be murdered by demons; they were either excused or easily dismissed. The sisters did acknowledge that their actions in "Extreme Makeover" were wrong. But the wrong they had acknowledged was that the world cannot only be "good". They never acknowledged that it was wrong to use magic on the world's population without anyone's consent. Exactly correct. It's when I hated the sisters with all of my heart, even while I was crying from the flashbacks--the little boys were more noble than their mother and their aunts. |
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Elder
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Post by Elder on Jan 12, 2010 12:28:50 GMT -5
Piper = freezing
I don't see much personal gain stemming from simply freezing somebody or something (not counting the added Prue effect such as in "morality bites")
Prue/Paige = moving things mentally or orb-based
This seems like a 50% personal gain power based only on what is being done and for what reason (such as the crap move by Prue in morality bites). The orbing of ice cream is not a world altering thing so that can be and should be forgiven and allowed.
Phoebe = premonition
This is totally a power that should be disregarded in the personal gain debate.
Phoebe has no control over the ability so seeing lottery numbers is not for her specifically...and even if it was for her, she still had no control over the vision so she should be able to do what she wants with it.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 12, 2010 16:26:39 GMT -5
Piper = freezing I don't see much personal gain stemming from simply freezing somebody or something (not counting the added Prue effect such as in "morality bites") Prue/Paige = moving things mentally or orb-based This seems like a 50% personal gain power based only on what is being done and for what reason (such as the crap move by Prue in morality bites). The orbing of ice cream is not a world altering thing so that can be and should be forgiven and allowed. Phoebe = premonition This is totally a power that should be disregarded in the personal gain debate. Phoebe has no control over the ability so seeing lottery numbers is not for her specifically...and even if it was for her, she still had no control over the vision so she should be able to do what she wants with it. Piper was tempted to freeze that teacher's assistant, Josh, in "Is There a Woogy in the House" in order to snatch the last bottle of a particular wine that she wanted. Despite having no control over her premonition, Phoebe was willing to take advantage of a premonition she had about lottery tickets. |
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Post by krug123 on Jan 13, 2010 6:44:39 GMT -5
The sister's using their magic for themselfs, is human nature! I think thats what the show was trying to tell us, that they use their powers for good, they fight evil, they risk their own lifes, etc.
But after all that, anyone would get sick of doing that, or feel that the world owes them somehow, and again, its just simple human nature.
Though, they learned their lessons, even if they had to learn them over and over again. Think of it like learning how to ride a bike, you get on the bike for the first time, you fall off, it takes time to learn how to ride the bike without falling off.
I dont have a problem at all with them using their magic for personal gain. To tell the truth, if they hadnt, it would have made for a somewhat boring show.
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Post by dylan345 on Jan 13, 2010 16:51:00 GMT -5
I don't mind them using their magic for personal gain when it doesn't hurt anyone, or people wouldn't be offended. For instance, if Piper froze someone, they probably aren't going to know she did that, but if they found out, they might be angry. I know I would be if she froze me without my consent. So Piper freezing people does kind of bother me, but if she only does it once in a while, I get it, because I would do the same. Just so long as she isn't doing it all the time.
I don't mind when the sisters do things like use their powers to keep something from falling to the floor or call for ice cream like Paige did in that one season seven episode. But when you do even simple things like that, you have to be aware of how it affects you. One of my favorite parts of the show was watching how the sisters dealt with magic at the same time as they also dealt with their lives in the nonmagical world, so every time you use your powers to clean the house or rely on a simple spell to make your life easier, it makes it that much harder to relate to the rest of the world, and I don't believe that's healthy for them.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 11, 2010 12:00:45 GMT -5
Sometimes, using magic to clean the house might not be good. It's called using magical shortcuts and it could lead to more abuses of power without anyone realizing it.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 7, 2010 21:04:23 GMT -5
I am going to have to disagree with the unfair advantage thing. They were born with magical powers so why not utilize them to get ahead. Some people are rich and can buy nicer things while other people are poor and can't get such things.
The Charmed Ones using magic to clean a house is comparable to a rich person having a maid. The Charmed Ones have magic, and the rich people have money, so why not use them?
However, I see magically cheating a whole different thing. Cheating in a competition or an entrace exam are effectively harming someone else who don't have such an advantage. I think it can only be considered and unfair advantage when you use it to magically cheat someone else out of something, but getting ahead would be a whole different circumstance.
Magically conjuring outfits you see in a magazine is different from magically winning a beauty pagent.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 11, 2010 11:29:42 GMT -5
For me, using magic to clean the house when they could do it on their own is magical cheating to me. What is the point of them using magic for such a task?
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