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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 20, 2010 18:16:30 GMT -5
Exactly. If they can become susceptible to a darklighters posionus arrow then something becomes apart of them when they become a whitelighter. The Elders can grant and take away a witches power but it is still apart of them that they are able to pass down to future generations. Whitelighters are just another magical breed that came directly from the Elders. The Elders are basically "gods" and whitelighters "demi-gods" This throws us an interesting curve ball as Leo as a white-lighter does not age. He looks the same as he did when he was alive and his personality traits were most likely intact. He was granted gifts from the magical world. Now that some members have mentioned this I have to wonder how or why their off-spring did become white-lights. Others have stated that since you have to be dead to be selected, it seems strange that living persons could have this ability. Piper on the other hand was born with her capabilities and would pass them down...but if you ponder this...maybe not. We do not receive all that either of our parents possess. It is largely a crap shoot. On the show "Bewitched" they were not sure that either of the two children would be witches. Perhaps this was because Darrin was mortal but I am not sure about that. Maybe as in Harry Potter not all children of magical heritage follow in their parents foot-steps. This might be an interesting avenue for the writers of the group to explore. What if one of the Charmed Ones did give birth to a child that could learn the teachings of magic, but had no real power? Has this been done? With whitelighters, this is how I have to come to see it: they start out alive and do great deeds, they die, they then become selected by the Elders to become whitelighters and are thus basically brought back from the dead. They arent ghosts or anything. And they dont die instantly when their powers are binded. When Leo had his wings clipped he just became a regular human being again sans his whitelighter abilities, instead of dieing and growing old instantly. As far as Bewitched, I believe it was because of Darrins being a mortal that, that question came into line with their children. Witches in the Bewitched world were basically another species or whatever/offshoot of humans. They were born immortal, had powers, lived on another plane. But since Samantha married a mortal and had a child with a mortal, they didnt know which side of the family the child would take after. This also was brought up in Charmed but not until the last season. Billie and her sister were witches with powers. Her father was a regular joe while her mother was a witch. But the powers basically skipped a generation. I believe Billies mother states that their grandmother had powers but she didnt thus she wasnst sure if Billie/Christy would recieve any. It wouldve been an interesting avenue to go with TCO but of course they never did. But had future chris never appeared we couldve assumed that Chris wouldnt gain any since he never showcased any as a baby in the season that knew him. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 20, 2010 21:10:16 GMT -5
A lion could breed with a tiger. They could be similar but different. A lion is alive. So is a tiger. A whitelighter is not alive - s/he's dead, or more specifically undead. So is his sperm or her eggs. It's why I hate the idea of witchlighters. Like Piper dying and come back to life 50 million times or Patty and Penny becoming corporeal for no special reasons, it totally takes away the idea of death. Unless your name is Prue, of course. I couldn't. If being granted powers means that you could pass them down, then every Warren would have the same three powers that Melinda Warren had. They didn't. They were each a witch, given a power at birth - sometimes one that Melinda didn't even have like the ice and fire that the cousins from the 20's got. None of the so-called witchlighters are whitelighters - they are all witches. Being a whitelighter is only something that you become after you die. The so-called witchlighters are all alive, so they can not be whitelighters, which means they can't have whitelighter powers or whitelighter-affected powers. Without the crutch of magic, there is still no logical reason for there to be such a thing as a witchlighter. |
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 20, 2010 21:19:46 GMT -5
But yet they could be "killed" by a Darklighters poison.
I wish the writer's were more clear on if a whitelighter was dead or alive. Numerous times Leo stated that he was dead, but I think he was refering to his previous life as a human. Becoming mortal also backs up my statement of him being alive, and that he has sperm.
I think becoming a whitelighter isn't just gaining powers, I think they are a new species altogether. Paige was shown numerous times to be affected by a Darklighter's poison showing that she also gained the vunerabilites of a whitelighter aswell as whitelighter powers.
However I must agree with you on the fact that Paige and Wyatt being able to use all these whitelighter powers takes the meaning out of being a whitelighter. I liked that fact that Chris was limited to Orbing and TK Orbing.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 20, 2010 21:36:34 GMT -5
Ive always agreed that a witchlighter shouldnt be able to gain all whitelighter abilities and that was a major show mistake with Paige and Wyatt. But other than that, they never full out stated what whtielighters really were. And if demons can have babies with mortals than I see no problem with whitelighters. Leo wasnt dead when his wings were clipped, he just didnt have any abilities.
But I dont remember any references of Leos heart not beating, him having no body warmth, no pulse. But everything points to them being another magical specisis imo.
And even Darklighters can reproduce sexually. That much we have confirmed.
So it sounds like they brought him back from the dead imo.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 20, 2010 21:43:06 GMT -5
Yes, I forgot to mention that demons can breed with humans, or else we wouldn't have Cole.
Was their any other Half breeds besides Whitelighters and demons on the show?
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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 20, 2010 21:54:43 GMT -5
I dont think so. Those were the major players of the show. And well demons covered a wide aray of demon species. We know darklighters are able to reproduce and those are basically the same as whitelighters (and we saw Paige as a darklighter in S6 finale)
And thinking back now, Leo must have had a heartbeat and body warmth since Piper was dating him for a whille before she found out he was a whitelighter.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 20, 2010 22:00:06 GMT -5
Not to mention slept with him. When you think about it, she would know right away whether or not he has "man juice".
Boy have we gotten off topic. For Es's list, I believe the Tall Man should fit somewhere up there. He was trapped by The Source because he couldn't defeat him, and he basically abosrbed everything including magic. It took Phoebe's brat's powers to beat him, and if I recall he was more powerful than the Po3.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 20, 2010 22:03:23 GMT -5
Then I suggest we move this into a new topic  And just to add on, Leo never said anything about whitelighters not being able to have children when they found out about Paige. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 9:48:21 GMT -5
I don't remember the Tall Man at all. Can you refresh my memory? I might very well also want to put him on my list. Which number would you put him?
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 13:43:04 GMT -5
charmed.wikia.com/wiki/The_tall_manThere that might jog your memory. Here is my list of the most powerful beings... 1. Hollow-Basically could absorb all magic in exsistence and end everything. That should warrent it as the most powerful. 2. Avatars-They had the ability to manipulate reality. However this is a tough one seeing as their weakness was a potion.  3. Cole-He was invincible. I put him under the Avatars because even though he was invincible the Avatars could warp reality to where he was a slug and step on him if they so wished. 4. Titans-It took TCO being Goddess to stop them, and they killed all the Elders. 5. Wyatt/Phoebe's Unborn Son-Since they were basically the same thing they tie at the 5th spot. 6. Elders/Tribunal-They could grant and take away powers, and had many of their own. They could possibly go above Wyatt but seeing as they did nothing when Wyatt took over San Fransico I would take that with a grain of salt. 7. The Tall Man-Locked away because The Source was scared of him. According to TCO he was unvanquishable, but Phoebe's unborn son seemed to be able to. 8. Ultimate Power-TCO couldn't beat them without taking in the Hollow,and plus the fact that they were able to vanquish demons TCO weren't able to I put them here. They could possibly be put higher on the list, but since they never fought any of the beings listed above it is hard to tell. 9. The Source/Zankou-They seemed to be the same level of power, maybe Zankou was a little bit stronger. TCO had to get the powers of their whole line to beat the Source. 10. TCO-They didn't have the power themselves to beat everyone above. That is my list. I didn't add The Woogeyman/Nexus seeing as TCO were able to vanquish/blow it up without a problem, or extra help.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 14:25:14 GMT -5
Thanks, Chaos!
I still don't remember him at all, but since I haven't watched any of the S4 episodes in ages, especially the ones with Cole as the Source (one of my least-favorite storylines since it started my favorite sister Phoebs on her downfall to my least-favorite sister, PhoeME/Freebie--yes, I do hate her more than Miss Whinealot), that doesn't surprise me any.
Actually, in the same way that you put Phoebe & Cole's unborn child and Wyatt on the same line (because I agree that they're moreorless the same character), I would put your Tall Man and Zankou on the same line, since they were both imprisoned by the Source in a magical cage.
As for the Woogey/Nexus, as I said, the only way the Charmed Ones could beat it was by cheating, using a power they shouldn't have been able to "learn". If the only true way of beating the Woogey/Nexus was by dying (as they should've..don't I wish! NO SEASON EIGHT!!!! NO BILLIE & CHRISTY!!! NO THREE KIDS FOR EACH SISTER!!!) I don't call that an easy vanquish.
So here's my updated list:
1. The Woogeyman. Everyone wanted his home, the Nexus, and whoever controlled it would gain great power, either good or evil. That had to make him the most powerful.
2. Tempus/Barbas. Both were never vanquished and both kept coming back. Since neither was ever vanquished, it's hard to say which was more powerful. With Barbas' power of fear, I truly believe he could've made *any* of the other creatures afraid, even all of the Angels and the Cleaners, which definitely makes him the next-most powerful, while with Tempus' control of time, that definitely makes him more powerful.
3. Cole the Avatar. He was crazy and he had all of the powers of the Avatars.
4. Avatars. They are certainly one of the most powerful ones. They have the power to manipulate reality, are invincible, exist outside of time and space, but they needed their group (and the Charmed Ones becoming avatars) in order to do such stuff, unlike Cole. Also, they *were* vanquished, while Cole was only trapped.
5. The Ultimate Power--Billie and Christy. With their power, they could've easily gotten rid of anyone below them, and could manipulate reality even easier than the Avatars could. The only reason they're not above the Avatars is that they weren't immortal. The sisters had to take in the Hollow in order to get rid of them.
6. Wyatt/Phoetus--Moreorless the same character. They might even belong farther up, but we never truly got to see what they was capable of. But since the Phoetus was able to get rid of the Tall Man, they belong above them.
7. The Tall Man/Zankou--Only ones the Source feared enough to put in a magic cage. Zankou is the one who should've been allowed to get rid of The Charmed Ones at the end of Season 7 so we wouldn't have been put through the torture of Season Eight. The smartest of the Charmed Ones' foes who could only be defeated when The Charmed Ones cheated by using a power that should not have been theirs--Prue's version of astral projection should *not* have been able to be taught. Rather than doing that, they should've got Wyatt to use his powers - if the Phoetus could get rid of The Tall Man, Wyatt should've been able to get rid of Zankou.
8. The Source of All Evil--not as smart as Zankou (he should've killed off Piper and Phoebe and *then* turn Paige evil) and needed the Hollow to try to get rid of them. And he feared the Tall Man and Zankou enough to lock him up, so he had to be less powerful. The Charmed Ones had to use the powers of the Matriarch to be able to get rid of him, so he was more powerful than them.
9. The Charmed Ones--very irritating that they'd be rated so low, but for everyone above them, they needed help, so the most powerful force of good ever very simply wasn't very powerful.
10. Piper--with her powers of explosion, she didn't really need the Charmed Ones for anyone who's not above them, the way her sisters couldn't get rid of a lot of demons who would be below her without her help.
I won't include the Elders because they were too easily vanquished and always needed The Charmed Ones to save them (in both "Blinded by the Whitelighter" and "Oh, My Goddess!) They and the Tribunal might be in the top 20, but definitely not the Top 10.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 14:47:54 GMT -5
Lets ignore Zankou for a minute...
If they had the SUXEN spell before they got caught up with Zankou they could have easily destroyed it whenever they wanted too. When it was The Woogeyman and had an evil concious, they could vanquish with a simple spell aswell.
Sure everybody wanted its power, but I doubt it would be more powerful than the Avatars, seeing as they weren't after it or didn't need its powers to shape reality.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 14:54:35 GMT -5
*thinks about it* Yes, you've got a point there. So here's my latest list:
1. Tempus/Barbas--Both were never vanquished and both kept coming back. Since neither was ever vanquished, it's hard to say which was more powerful. With Barbas' power of fear, I truly believe he could've made *any* of the other creatures afraid, even all of the Angels and the Cleaners, which definitely makes him the next-most powerful, while with Tempus' control of time, that definitely makes him more powerful.
2. Cole the Avatar--He was crazy and he had all of the powers of the Avatars.
3. Avatars.--They are certainly one of the most powerful ones. They have the power to manipulate reality, are invincible, exist outside of time and space, but they needed their group (and the Charmed Ones becoming avatars) in order to do such stuff, unlike Cole. Also, they *were* vanquished, while Cole was only trapped.
4. The Woogeyman/The Hollow--Everyone wanted the Woogey's home, the Nexus, and whoever controlled it would gain great power, either good or evil, and the Hollow could take in any power. Zankou (sorry, can't forget my favorite demon and the one who should've had the honor of vanquishing The Charmed Ones) needed the Woogey to get rid of The Charmed Ones while Billie and Christy needed The Hollow, so both the Hollow and the Woogey had to be more powerful than the others.
5. The Ultimate Power--Billie and Christy--With their power, they could've easily gotten rid of anyone below them, and could manipulate reality even easier than the Avatars could. The only reason they're not above the Avatars is that they weren't immortal. The sisters had to take in the Hollow in order to get rid of them.
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6. Wyatt/Phoetus--Moreorless the same character, both who should've never been part of the show, both caused when their mothers ate the chocolate. They might even belong farther up, but we never truly got to see what they was capable of. But since the Phoetus was able to get rid of the Tall Man, they belong above them.
7. The Tall Man/Zankou--Only ones the Source feared enough to put in a magic cage. Zankou is the one who should've been allowed to get rid of The Charmed Ones at the end of Season 7 so we wouldn't have been put through the torture of Season Eight. The smartest of the Charmed Ones' foes who could only be defeated when The Charmed Ones cheated by using a power that should not have been theirs--Prue's version of astral projection should *not* have been able to be taught. Rather than doing that, they should've got Wyatt to use his powers - if the Phoetus could get rid of The Tall Man, Wyatt should've been able to get rid of Zankou.
8. The Source of All Evil--Not as smart as Zankou (he should've killed off Piper and Phoebe and *then* turn Paige evil) and needed the Hollow to try to get rid of them. And he feared the Tall Man and Zankou enough to lock him up, so he had to be less powerful. The Charmed Ones had to use the powers of the Matriarchs to be able to get rid of him, so he was more powerful than them.
9. The Charmed Ones--Very irritating that they'd be rated so low, but for everyone above them, they needed help, so the most powerful force of good ever very simply wasn't very powerful.
10. Piper--With her powers of explosion, she didn't really need the Charmed Ones for anyone who's not above them, the way her sisters couldn't get rid of a lot of demons who would be below her without her help.
I won't include the Elders because they were too easily vanquished and always needed The Charmed Ones to save them (in both "Blinded by the Whitelighter" and "Oh, My Goddess!) They and the Tribunal might be in the top 20, but definitely not the Top 10.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 15:07:17 GMT -5
Do you think given the chance TCO could vanquish the Elders? Maybe we should do a Top 20 seeing as so many characters are tied.  |
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Post by ljones on Mar 21, 2010 21:11:59 GMT -5
Do you think given the chance TCO could vanquish the Elders? Maybe we should do a Top 20 seeing as so many characters are tied. If the sisters could find a way to use darklighter poison against them. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 21:12:24 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely think The Charmed Ones could've vanquished the Elders, without any problems whatsoever - they wouldn't even need the powers of the Matriarchs or being Titans. If Aames and the Titans could do it, the Charmed Ones definitely could. I think PIPER could. I could hope that's what happens in the first episode of the comic book...
LOL, you might be right about that top 20! But it would be so hard to break the ties...
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Post by ljones on Mar 22, 2010 15:43:11 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but you're wrong. Without the darklighters' poison, I doubt very much that the Charmed Ones could have killed the Elders, let alone a whitelighter.
Cole could have done it, but not TCOs.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 22, 2010 16:26:28 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but you're wrong. Without the darklighters' poison, I doubt very much that the Charmed Ones could have killed the Elders, let alone a whitelighter. Cole could have done it, but not TCOs. I agree. Like when Piper blew up Leo. He would just reform. |
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Post by thunderninja007 on Oct 3, 2011 14:05:14 GMT -5
Had this discussion at another site and wondered what you guys thought. They left out the angels and the cleaners since it's hard to tell just how powerful they are/aren't. Here's my list in order: What would yours be? 1. The Woogeyman. Everyone wanted his home, the Nexus, and whoever controlled it would gain great power, either good or evil. That had to make him the most powerful. 2. Barbas. He was never vanquished and kept coming back. With his power of fear, I truly believe he could've made *any* of the other creatures afraid, even all of the Angels and the Cleaners, which definitely makes him the next-most powerful. 3. Cole the Avatar. He was crazy and he had all of the powers of the Avatars. 4. Avatars. They are certainly one of the most powerful ones. They have the power to manipulate reality, are invincible, exist outside of time and space, but they needed their group (and the Charmed Ones becoming avatars) in order to do such stuff, unlike Cole. 5. The Ultimate Power--Billie and Christy. With their power, they could've easily gotten rid of anyone below them, and could manipulate reality even easier than the Avatars could. The only reason they're not above the Avatars is that they weren't immortal. The sisters had to take in the Hollow in order to get rid of them. 6. Zankou--the one who should've been allowed to get rid of The Charmed Ones at the end of Season 7 so we wouldn't have been put through the torture of Season Eight. The smartest of the Charmed Ones' foes who could only be defeated when The Charmed Ones cheated by using a power that should not have been theirs--Prue's version of astral projection should *not* have been able to be taught. 7. Wyatt--he might even belong farther up, but we never truly got to see what he was capable of. 8. Piper--with her powers of explosion, she didn't really need the Charmed Ones for anyone who's not above her. With her anger and self-pity, she truly didn't need the toga party in order to get rid of the Titans. 9. The Charmed Ones--very irritating that they'd be rated so low, but for everyone above them, they needed help, so the most powerful force of good ever very simply wasn't very powerful. 10. The Source of All Evil--not as smart as Zankou (he should've killed off Piper and Phoebe and *then* turn Paige evil) and needed the Hollow to try to get rid of them. And he feared Zankou enough to lock him up, so he had to be less powerful. The Charmed Ones were able to get rid of him just with a spell--piece of cake. HUH Barbas never vanquished cole vanquished him first then the charmed ones did he even said it himself in crime and witch demenors. i wouldnt count the hallow or the nexus cuz its not really a being its just power. Cole the avatar was the strongest being ever on the show think about it he may not be able to vanquish the other avatars but they couldnt vanquish him no1 could he only died because he altered reality to when he was belthazor again so he was easy to vanquish. And all tempas could do was reset time he was strong but not that strong and besides he answered to the source thats y he reversed time |
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Post by ljones on Oct 10, 2011 13:32:35 GMT -5
Actually, the Avatars made Cole one of them; which leads me to believe they were more powerful than him.
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