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Post by Astral Echo on Nov 30, 2010 20:07:43 GMT -5
Remember the baby sacrificed himself. Not the sisters.
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Post by StoryGirl83 on Nov 30, 2010 22:35:00 GMT -5
Remember the baby sacrificed himself. Not the sisters. Did he? Cause, all I saw was the sisters encouraging the Seer to keep trying to use the powers and them getting increasingly more irratic. I saw nothing that indicated the explosion that followed was any sort of sacrifice. All I saw was too much power being used causing an explosion. What leads you to believe he sacrificed himself? As for my comment about getting rid of the source without getting rid of the host, while I did plurel it, I was mostly refering to what happened with Cole rather than what happened with his son. I didn't like the entire sequence of events, but I am more at peace with what happened to Phoebe and Cole's son, than I am with what happened to Cole. |
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Post by Astral Echo on Dec 1, 2010 11:36:32 GMT -5
I agree, as his soul mate, Phoebe of all people should of atleast tried to find some way to save Cole. But at the time, she had no choice, she had a matter of minutes to decide whether or not to save her sisters or her lover, a lover who also happened to be the Source.
Paige and Piper were just foolish, going after Cole when they knew full well he wouldn't come after them. And it was Paige who enticed the situation...yet again another murder by her hand.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2010 12:59:52 GMT -5
I agree, as his soul mate, Phoebe of all people should of atleast tried to find some way to save Cole. This is one of many reasons why I don't think that Phoebe and Cole are soul mates, although the way she treats him in S5 makes me think that even more. I still think that her soul mate is Anton, and Cole (and Jason and Myles and Leslie and Drake and Dex and Coop and...) simply reminds her soul of Anton, the reason she always goes for the tall, dark, handsome and often sinister. It's the fanfic I've always wanted to read but never quite figured out how to write - the return of Anton. |
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Post by marienomad on Dec 1, 2010 13:35:20 GMT -5
But at the time, she had no choice, she had a matter of minutes to decide whether or not to save her sisters or her lover, a lover who also happened to be the Source. Not really. Cole was possessed by the Source for months. Paige suspected something but Phoebe didn't bother to listen or even double check. She's a psychic. She could have just used her premonition powers, a spell, or even a pair of magic glasses to confirm at least that Cole was completely human. Phoebe didn't even want to think about that possibility and that's where she failed. She failed Cole as both a witch and a lover. She doesn't deserve a cupid. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2010 13:39:34 GMT -5
Amen.
And now thinking about it, I'm going to retract something I agreed with earlier. If Cole and Phoebe had raised the Phoetus, I think the Phoetus still would've been evil. No way Phoebe would be able to see that her perfect little baby was anything but good, and as long as she felt that way, I don't think Cole would do anything to change him - if anything, I think Cole would find it amusing.
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Post by marienomad on Dec 3, 2010 0:25:55 GMT -5
You mean like how Piper felt about Wyatt and that she thought that Wyatt could never be evil until Chris showed up and told her?
To be honest, I thought that Wyatt might turn bad because of his parents' less than ethical use of magic.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 3, 2010 8:38:41 GMT -5
Seeing the way Piper treated her kids in S7 & S8, I was positive that the next time Chris came into the past, he'd be whining over the fact that his mother left him and that his father had no balls. And he'd probably come back wanting to kill them.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 5, 2010 14:46:50 GMT -5
I disagree completely. I disagree that kid would have become evil, even if Phoebe and Cole had raised him. That's like judging someone based upon "what" he or she is. And to me, that's a form of bigotry.
One, no one is perfect. Two, anyone can become good or evil. It's about the choices one makes in life; not what they are. The Charmed Ones and Leo have proven many times that they were capable of becoming monsters. Cole has shown that he could choose the path of good, even when he was a half-demon. And three, it was the potion that the Seer had fed to Phoebe that led her unborn child's evil to overcome. It could have easily happened to anyone - including the Charmed Ones or whitelighters like Leo.
The idea that only humans or certain beings like whitelighers or fairies can be good, because of what they are is disgusting to me. This idea is something that the series had failed to overcome and instead, continued to maintain the idea that it's okay to judge someone based upon accident of birth.
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Post by StoryGirl83 on Dec 5, 2010 18:37:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure, but I think what she was saying there was that had Phoebe and Cole raised their baby they wouldn't have noticed anything needed to be corrected (or if they did in Cole's case) not done anything about it. And there was a basic evil to overcome for this child, not because of his biology, but because of the potion the Seer was feeding Phoebe (and through her the baby).
I think probably they would have noticed, especially Cole, who was kind of sensitive to those things by that point. And I think if they had gotten things to the point where Cole was no longer possessed by the Source and things were going well between him and Phoebe, I think he would have tried (and succeeded) to get his son on the right path.
And I think even if Cole wasn't around they would have realized that something needed to be fixed. Now, maybe all the baby would need was to be taken away from the potion long enough to give him a fighting chance added to a good upbringing.
That is of course assuming that the Charmed Ones were themselves on the right path and I realize that is not always to be assumed.
I definitely do not think her statement was bigotted. Her statement was a slap in the face to how Phoebe was at the time. It wasn't saying the baby couldn't be good. The statement said Phoebe couldn't raise her son right. And yes, you can overcome your upbringing. I think for the most part, Cole did, but it took him over one hundred years to do that.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 5, 2010 18:58:22 GMT -5
See, I think Cole was just good due to his lust for Phoebe. So if she thought her baby was perfect, he'd let her - he'd have no reason to change his son if she didn't notice he needed changing. He's actually good in a ton of fanfics, but I don't think he ever truly changed on the show - had he not been vanquished when he was, he still would've turned back to evil.
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Post by Astral Echo on Dec 5, 2010 20:19:12 GMT -5
Cole is a tricky subject. It's his nature, due to his upbringing, to be evil. But I don't think it's his lust for Phoebe that may him good, it was her love for him that made him strong enough to overcome his nature. Without that, I think he would of struggled - perhaps the love of another "good" woman would of had the same effect.
Unfortunetly he was in a difficult position. He knew being evil was wrong, his human side tells him that. But without some kind of motivation, like any addiction, evil is hard to overcome.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 5, 2010 21:18:06 GMT -5
Well, on that we'll just have to agree to disagree. Everyone thinks they loved each other, and I don't. I didn't see anything but lust and seeing the other who they *thought* they were, not who they truly were. Had S5 been done differently, I'd think differently. But as is...
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 6, 2010 1:24:04 GMT -5
Why would Phoebe take the poison, if Cole had not been possessed by the Source? They could find a way to get rid of the influence of the poison.
The Charmed Ones, Leo and whitelighters like Gideon have proven that evil is hard to overcome or realize it within themselves. They've also proved how humans or other so-called "beings of good" can succumb to evil over some stupid belief that they are doing good. Why is Cole being judged for his bad deeds and not them?
Why on earth did Burge and Kern insist upon this STUPID characterization of human=good and demon=evil. Even shows like "BUFFY" and "ANGEL" didn't stick with this.
And the idea that humans are "basically" good or are more prone to good is another example of our ability to harbor illusions about ourselves. I do not believe that humans are basically good. We never have been and I doubt very much that we'll ever be. God knows I got sick and tired of the Halliwells and Leo acting as if they were barely capable of succumbing to evil all on their own.
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Post by marienomad on Dec 6, 2010 2:40:05 GMT -5
There are even cartoons that don't have such a black and white morality. Like Avatar the Last Airbender, at first they portrayed the Fire Nation as evil. Then, they showed that the Firebenders have the same shades of morality as the other nations. There are good fire benders and bad fire benders. There are good water benders and bad water benders.
The black and white morality in Charmed is insane. It felt like it had become more polarizing in the later seasons. Like in the Mirror Universe episode. The 'evil' counterparts said that they can't trust their 'good' counterparts because they are good. I still don't get that line of reasoning.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 6, 2010 8:55:45 GMT -5
The mirror universe showed how screwed up the Charmedverse was. The Evil Charmed Ones and Evil Leo and Evil Chris weren't even all that evil, just ugly, the same way the Good Charmed Ones weren't all that good, just beautiful.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 6, 2010 11:58:43 GMT -5
That's not surprising. A lot of writers have a tendency to associate good with beauty and evil with ugliness. Look at how most of the evil characters in the "LORD OF THE RINGS" saga are ugly.
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Post by marienomad on Dec 10, 2010 0:05:43 GMT -5
The mirror universe showed how screwed up the Charmedverse was. The Evil Charmed Ones and Evil Leo and Evil Chris weren't even all that evil, just ugly, the same way the Good Charmed Ones weren't all that good, just beautiful. The Evil Charmed Ones were dressed in black leather with spikes. Not really evil, more... bad. Does this mean that bikers in that world are dressed in floral prints? |
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Lexi
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Post by Lexi on Dec 10, 2010 8:00:27 GMT -5
Haha! That just cracked me up. It would have been hilarious to see. It makes you wonder what darklighters and warlocks would look like too  I mean, Barbus was just dressed in the same clothes he usually did but white rather than black so it wasn't too much of a give away. Mind you, if it was Kernus then the demons would be in white floaty clothes and the witches would have been the usual black leather  |
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Reality Bites
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Post by Reality Bites on Dec 10, 2010 17:31:04 GMT -5
Haha! That just cracked me up. It would have been hilarious to see. It makes you wonder what darklighters and warlocks would look like too I mean, Barbus was just dressed in the same clothes he usually did but white rather than black so it wasn't too much of a give away. Mind you, if it was Kernus then the demons would be in white floaty clothes and the witches would have been the usual black leather Hahaha!! You're probably dead on there! |
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I mean, Barbus was just dressed in the same clothes he usually did but white rather than black so it wasn't too much of a give away. Mind you, if it was Kernus then the demons would be in white floaty clothes and the witches would have been the usual black leather 
