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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Feb 5, 2011 13:46:49 GMT -5
Sounds fun. I guess I will start.
How about Piper/Phoebe turning people into animals.
My argument: No it is not a sin/illegal or whatever, but I would count is as a misuse of magic. At best it is at prank level, I don't think TCOs had anything malicious in mind when they did it (except for when Phoebe was under the Witch Doctor's spell). I believe there are far worst things you could do to a person than turn them into an animal for s plit second without them rememberinf a thing.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 5, 2011 16:25:37 GMT -5
Sounds fun. I guess I will start. How about Piper/Phoebe turning people into animals. My argument: No it is not a sin/illegal or whatever, but I would count is as a misuse of magic. At best it is at prank level, I don't think TCOs had anything malicious in mind when they did it (except for when Phoebe was under the Witch Doctor's spell). I believe there are far worst things you could do to a person than turn them into an animal for s plit second without them rememberinf a thing. I'll disagree with this part: When the reporters were turned into rats, there was a *lot* of maliciousness behind it. The fact that they did it to non-magicals is what upset me the most. To me that's a very bad misuse of magic, far above the level of just prank. It could've resulted in a scenario similar to "Morality Bites", and should mean the removal of that power, at least until the witch (and Kern) learns that just doing something to be funny is not a good enough reason to do it. |
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Feb 5, 2011 19:31:32 GMT -5
I would agree with this, but it wasn't taken past that level. They had no knowledge of it at all. Piper was being constantly harrased by the reporters, she should have a right to be annoyed. The reporters are fine, no harm done.
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 5, 2011 20:17:27 GMT -5
Thank you to the three of you for commenting on this. I decided to keep still about it and see if members were up for this before I threw in a few ideas.
This could be a fun and I guess at times a heated debate if other find it interesting.
Posted by Quadquetra on 1/30/11 at 5:34pm
I am, I want too defend them.
Thank you for being the first to jump in the deep end. Defend away and enjoy. Others may decide to join you and that's great as lawyers often work as a team. But this can be a learning experience and regardless if you are prosecuting or defending, you can change your position at any time. As a Law and Order fan I know that I have changed my stance on an issue as the case progressed. Good Luck and I look forward to your comments.
Posted by SEERofCHAOS on Today at 1:46pm
Sounds fun. I guess I will start.
How about Piper/Phoebe turning people into animals.
My argument: No it is not a sin/illegal or whatever, but I would count is as a misuse of magic. At best it is at prank level, I don't think TCOs had anything malicious in mind when they did it (except for when Phoebe was under the Witch Doctor's spell). I believe there are far worst things you could do to a person than turn them into an animal for s plit second without them rememberinf a thing.
Thank you S of C for getting the ball rolling. Your response is what I was waiting for. My only request is that for Shannon fans like myself who now own all of the seasons but still only speak fluent seasons 1 through 3 that you state the case as a lawyer would say...so I can brush up on the episode and try to comment with some knowledge. I do recall the Turkey one with Phoebe about to bake and baste dinner without bothering to shop first, but I don't recall which episode that was and I would like to review it before speaking out of turn. I will say that as an average run of the mill powerless human I delighted in the moment...having dealt with a lot of turkeys in life, who for some reason look human, but I know other wise. This of course didn't make her actions acceptable... but since she was stopped/or came to her senses before it was too late, what is the crime and how should it be punished? This question is what I am hoping with make this thread different from others where we just state a grievance and either dismiss it or off with your head.
If Phoebe had killed him, would it be any different than when she was about to be burnt at the stake? From my stand point, NO.. murder for the most part is murder by any other name. But then as in the real world was she in control or under a spell?
I would like to see this thread treated like the real world with a witch twist and unusual exceptions accounted for. In some cases outside influences of evil were in control. In our world that would be taken into consideration. I hope that as we set ourselves up as judges, juries and lawyers we will express enough wisdom to travel between both worlds in order to arrive at a just conclusion.
Thank you Es...your comments helped be to conclude this. So, shall we commence?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 5, 2011 20:33:18 GMT -5
I would agree with this, but it wasn't taken past that level. They had no knowledge of it at all. Piper was being constantly harrased by the reporters, she should have a right to be annoyed. The reporters are fine, no harm done. Annoyed, yes. Use her powers? NO! Morality Bites proved that you let her get away with the little things and soon...As proven when they performed premeditated murder on the Jenkinses. |
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Feb 5, 2011 20:54:58 GMT -5
I would agree with this, but it wasn't taken past that level. They had no knowledge of it at all. Piper was being constantly harrased by the reporters, she should have a right to be annoyed. The reporters are fine, no harm done. Annoyed, yes. Use her powers? NO! Morality Bites proved that you let her get away with the little things and soon...As proven when they performed premeditated murder on the Jenkinses. They wouldn't have this problem if they were a little more disciplined. As far as I am concerned though, flinging the dog poop on his shoe was deserved. What goes around comes around. He knew letting his dog poop on private property was wrong but did it anyways. People would just brush that aside as "You could do far worse things, don't stress about it." So I say that with TCOs, there are far worse things TCOs can do with their magic, obviously killing someone is waaay over the line. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 6, 2011 11:09:58 GMT -5
Perhaps the misuse of magic was deserved. But it still makes it a misuse of magic.
I agree that a lot of this is due to the fact that the girls were undisciplined (although what happened to Phoebe in the Morality Bites future should've changed that, especially for Prue, Piper and Phoebe), but it still doesn't take away the fact that as soon as they start misusing their magic that way, they're way on their way into becoming warlocks, which should've been their "reward" for murdering both Rick and the Jenkinses (and coming close to murdering Darryl), all things that wouldn't have happened had they (and Kern) learned their lessons early on.
As soon as you use your magic for something it wasn't meant to be used for - The wrong thing done for the right reason is still wrong - you're asking for trouble.
Now if the series was a comedy like "Bewitched" , then all of these comical misuses of magic would've been just fine. Had the first five seasons of Charmed never been aired, I'd probably not be typing this (because I never would've watched the show). But as is... As you guys know, it's one of many reasons why I so hate "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper"!.
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Post by dylan345 on Feb 6, 2011 16:05:29 GMT -5
I didn't like the sisters turning people into animals. If I say it's funny and didn't do any harm for the people involved, then I also say it's okay for it to happen to me, and I wouldn't be okay with that, regardless of if I would remember or not.
A certain responsibility comes with using powers, as does a certain maturity. I would have admired the sisters a lot more for not using magic when tempted.
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 7, 2011 14:13:20 GMT -5
Okay, today I am on your team. I wish to defend. So...if you are going to be a doctor or lawyer you spend years in school learning your trade before you are allowed to practice. With the power the girls had bestowed upon them, should they not have been granted the same?
By the time the girls discovered who they were and what they were capable of and what was expected of them...did they have enough time to grow and learn all of the rules and regulation set down by some higher power?
I think they were at times at a disadvantage. Sure we have all learned things as we go along but mistakes should be expected. Most of us have taken a few things home from the office. That is stealing, but we don't think anyone is going to get hurt. The Piper fruit thing comes to mind. Did she do this with malice in mind? Did she take the long view of her crime?
If they had been raised to know who they were would things have been different? Should Penny and Patty be held responsible for some of this?
When the girls went back in time and Grams and mom learned that they would grow to be the Charmed Ones should some changes not have been made? Keep their powers bound to protect them but school them in the ways they should go.
Penny knew what it meant to be the Charmed Ones...she was so delighted that she took most of the credit until Patty pointed out that she was the one who gave birth to the magical three. Now I loved Grams but remembering this it occurs to me that she was a bit selfish in her desire to be special without thought to the future at hand. Rose Kennedy once told her first born grand-child that much is expected to those that much has been given. Since Penny knew what the future would soon hold I think with all of her abilities she could have done a better job of schooling the girls.
No one is perfect and there would still have been problems as there is in life for all of us. But in my opinion they were ill-equipped and very unprepared to step into the rolls that were predestine for them.
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Post by Quadquetra on Feb 7, 2011 23:58:28 GMT -5
I think I will add on to what Ghost-Rider said. Basically this is my biggest issue with all the criticisms of the Charmed Ones, they were not raised too be perfect points of good, they were raised as normal women. So all this stuff about being selfish or doing the wrong thing I mean really they are human and who here can say they would have made all the right decisions, I mean come on. And ok onto the turning people into animals. Yeah its not the best thing to do but were the reporters hurt? No. Did they remember magic? No. I mean I can see where its not the best thing to do but its not something to really get upset about I mean who did it hurt? Oh and thanks for defending with me Ghost-Rider lol  |
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 8, 2011 5:45:10 GMT -5
I agree with Gosth Rider and Quadquetra and I share with her the discomfort about some moralistic criticisms
I'ld not watch Charmed if it had been the usual series of spotless and fearless superheroes I liked they were pictured as normal women with problems wishes flaws and fears
It is worth being afriad and pushing forwrad I don't give credit to someone who is perfect an do perfect things..too easy
I know Es'll be scandalized but I never liked the assumption of Morality Bites,that Phobe'd become the kind of woman able to kill a person only because she started on punishing an impolite slob,( here in Zurig he'ld pay more or less 1000$ for that) and Piper a divorced woman and Prue a selfish carrerist. Unconvincing
If Grams knew they'ld become the Charmed One she'ld have to think that a great power requires strict discipline and training to manage it. They were good at getting by
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 8, 2011 10:41:54 GMT -5
I agree that I wouldn't have liked the sisters to be perfect. What I didn't like was them doing something wrong (like premediatated murder) and not being punished, or when they were punished, not learning from their lesson.
You brought up Grams. Thinking about this, I realized that I might be blaming the wrong people. Grams was the one who told them to just send Inspector Rodriguez, a mortal, "Somewhere, anywhere".
No wonder the sisters thought they could use their magic however they wanted and damn the consequences.
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 9, 2011 0:46:50 GMT -5
Thank you QQ, EM and ES for the feed-back. This is the direction I was hoping this thread would travel. Speaking just for myself I realized that I had over looked a few things. I did tend to place Grams at a higher level than she really deserved.....Patty too. I have defended both of them in the past and I am finally rethinking this with a clearer head.
Since Grams wasn't there all of the time I have to wonder how much of my memories of her were selective. I think it is very human of us to do this. For example: Pick someone in your life that you loved very much. You depended and counted on them say starting at an early age. If it was a parent or someone much older you just believed they knew everything and took every word as truth and all they had was your best interest at heart. Because of this you might miss or forget or simply push aside some of the slights and wrong doings on their part. You are in short bias. Very normal but not alway healthy.
There is an old saying..."The apple does not fall far from the tree"...as a kid I did not understand this...boy I do now. There were things I didn't like about the people who raised me, but even now I find myself being just like them. Ouch. This came to mind when Es said the following...
Taking a better look at this the girls often got themselves into trouble because of what Grams brought to the family table. Before I open up the bad box please understand...I am not excusing all of their actions, just trying to understand them before I pass a judgment that is either wrong or to harsh.
Also...in my book, murder is murder and a line that should never be crossed as it is not fixable. This of course dose not include war or self-defence since in one if you are a GI you have little or no say in the mess and the latter is to me something I can not argue.
As for the animal thing I will confess that the silly in me tends to take control there so that is my bad. If I lived in Harry Potter's world there would have been times when I would have liked to turn Snape into a tree and send him to Brooklyn.
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 9, 2011 9:10:54 GMT -5
As for the animal thing I will confess that the silly in me tends to take control there so that is my bad. If I lived in Harry Potter's world there would have been times when I would have liked to turn Snape into a tree and send him to Brooklyn. The difference is wishing it and doing it. All of the sisters should've had their powers removed during that trial of Phoebe for showing that they didn't have the discipline to properly use their magic. Ditto for Wyatt and Fetus Chris. Their magic should've also been taken away at least until their parents were shown to properly prepare them, the way Grams didn't. Punished the sisters otherwise, no. But remaining the Charmed Ones? Definitely not. Allowed to raise the Twice Blessed Child - their destiny after agreeing to continue that destiny? Also definitely not. I think we know the real reason why Wyatt went power crazy. As GR put it - the apple did not fall far from the tree. |
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 9, 2011 11:26:18 GMT -5
As I said, you can be what you want at anytime so for this one I was on the jury....for this ES received a blessing for helping me to see Grams in a better light and ponder her teaching or lack there of, creating the domino effect so to speak.
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2011 1:18:31 GMT -5
This reminds me of the sisters' decision not to bound the powers of toddler Wyatt, after he had conjured that demon in early S6. By allowing him to keep his powers, they were incredibly stupid.
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Post by marienomad on Feb 10, 2011 10:31:28 GMT -5
This reminds me of the sisters' decision not to bound the powers of toddler Wyatt, after he had conjured that demon in early S6. By allowing him to keep his powers, they were incredibly stupid. I know. What about say putting at least a dampener on his powers? To prevent him from... conjuring an real dragon that could have destroyed San Fransisco! |
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 10, 2011 10:56:41 GMT -5
Amen! The Cleaners cleaned the wrong people - they should've cleaned the Charmed Ones (and Chris - and Kern) out of existence and let someone who *could* properly raise the Twice Blessed Child do it.
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 24, 2011 21:38:19 GMT -5
.
I couldn't agree more. In fact considering who his parents were if it were me I would have had his abilities bound directly after his Wicca ceremony. I wouldn't have conferred with anyone, not even Grams on that one. I would have been in and out of the attic in 5 minutes. With all they had to deal with on a day to day bases, who would want that added problem? Side note: Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the child playing Wyatt looked and acted like he would have preferred to be anywhere but there? I don't remember hearing the child speak even when he got a little older. Remember "Full House"? That baby never shut up.
As for the Cleaners...maybe it's just me, but I found them to be an annoyance, like a fly that I have been trying to vanquish for the past hour, and being unsuccessful. I am not saying that I found them unnecessary, just out of line and exercising more power than they had a right to have. To me their job was to clean up the mess created. After that they should have to pass the buck to the higher powers. They were not a child protective service. And since the writers brought to us all of these other higher ups they should have used them correctly. I mean lets face it. If the greater powers sent Piper a magical warrant regarding her child, thus telling her you must bind his powers until he is 21...most viewers might have said,yeah..that makes sence...but when the men in black attempt to abscond with your child my child, anybodies kid..., mother's from all walks of life are going to take a dim view of that. And you know, I think that is what Kern and company were going for.
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Post by ljones on Feb 25, 2011 4:10:24 GMT -5
I think you are right. I think that the Cleaners' actions were a way for Kern to manipulate the audience into accepting the sisters' decision not to bind Wyatt's powers.
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