pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Feb 9, 2008 6:41:08 GMT -5
i have thought about this for a long time, and i still don't think i have come to a definite answer.
did cole have any choice but to be evil?
and when we look back at his character, do you consider him good or evil?
because if we look back at his history, he tried so hard to live a life of "goodness" persay, fighting his demon instincts, but it seemed they always got the better of him.
so does that make him evil? or do his intentions at trying to do the right thing make him good.
i know i am asking for a black and white, yes or no type answer, but it would be interesting to see how he is viewed by his fans.
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Post by *Sammi!* on Feb 9, 2008 14:03:06 GMT -5
I think that Cole was, at the start very evil, but as time went on, he discovered what love was with Phoebe, therefore he lost his demonic evil streak. What made him evil, barrhis powers I think was the lack of love that he would have gotten from his parents. Nature vs. nuture.
I dont believe that Cole ever completely lost the evil part, but if he wasnt evil in the first place he wouldnt have been so demonic. Everyone was fearful of Belthazar.
I dont believe again that he became evil again when he started going loopy towards the end, it was Phoebe's lack of support and complete ignorance of the fact that he was trying to change that sent him, in the end, mad.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 9, 2008 15:01:24 GMT -5
Just like Phoebe, who was born in the Manor and therefore was the most affected by the Nexus, Cole always had a tendency to be evil, due to his being half-demon, more than the other non-demon/non-warlock/non-etcs. creatures did. The show never showed him getting rid of Belthazar or even having him totally under control. Therefore I would say that in that way he was still evil, the same way Phoebe could always be counted that way. But like Phoebe, he'd learned how to control that evil due to love. What he did for both Piper and Phoebe in Seven Years Witch definitely shows that.
This is why although I love Cole (and I admire him more than any of the other characters on Charmed, my own favorite sister, Prue, included), I never thought he and Phoebe would've made it as a couple--Cole only turned good for her, not for himself. Eventually he would've resented it and probably end up killing her or she would've end up vanquishing him again and again and again, especially if she never learned how to accept the blame for her own actions rather than always trying to put it on someone else like Cole.
Off-topic for a bit to make someone clear. Despite what Brad Kern tried to make us think, NO, the Charmed Ones did NOT get rid of the Nexus in "Something Wicca This Way Goes?" The Woogey, the shadow that lived in the Nexus and that possessed Phoebe in "Is there a Woogey in the House?" and Zankou in "Something Wicca This Way Goes?", yes, but the Nexus?? Nope. They can't. The Nexus is a location, not a being. This is from "Is there a Woogey in the House":
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 9, 2008 15:50:45 GMT -5
No, I think Cole was morally conflicted. He appeared to be nothing more than evil in early-Season 3, but that was a result of years of conditioning in the Underworld.
Remember, Cole's demonic mother, Elizabeth Turner, killed Cole's powerless mortal father when Cole was still a baby.
If Cole was somehow allowed to view a postcognitive vision (aka flashback), perhaps via an oracle, depicting his father's death, that could have triggered such an emotional reaction in Cole that he began to question the years of indoctrination he'd probably been subjected to by his mother and the rest of the Underworld.
Cole also saw his judgment impaired when overwhelming power consumed him. But then, so did the Charmed Ones, Leo, and Wyatt, whenever they would receive an upsurge of tremendous power.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 9, 2008 19:04:15 GMT -5
yes but every time good was finally working..... ie he was able to control his demonic urges, something would happen to take him back to the evil side. whether that was posession, or rage, or another demon was chasing him.
in the end he was vanquished as a demon, not killed as a lover.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 2:47:38 GMT -5
Of course Cole had evil within him. Who didn't? Many of them - the four Halliwell sisters, Leo, Cole, Billie and others ALL proved that they had a great potential to not only be evil, but monstrous as well.
All forms of nature, whether they be humans, demons, the elements, and other forces of nature had both light and darkness within.
I never believed that that Nexus Theory about Phoebe having more potential for evil than her sisters, because she was born in the manor. I think that theory was a load of crap. Especially since the series has shown that her sisters, brother-in-law and nephews had as much potential for evil as she did. Because the Nexus Theory struck me as one that the Halliwells pulled from their behinds and we, as the audience, are expected to believe it. I think that Prue and Piper wanted to believe it because of Phoebe's past juvenile behavior . . . and the fact that personality wise, she was more like their father.
Prue and Piper . . . in the end . . . proved to be the kind of people who are so convinced of their own goodness that they fail to see the potential for evil within them. Well, Prue eventually got over that attitude once she realized how dark she could be in "Death Takes a Halliwell". I don't think Piper ever truly realized how monstrous she could be. I don't think that Paige did, either.
As for Cole always possessing evil because he was half-demon . . . I find that viewpoint to be rather ridiculous and infantile. It smacked of a black-vs-white mentality that tells me that Burge, Kern and their writers never really matured. I once came across a website that featured a list of demons. I was surprised to find that many of them are basically ambiguous . . . like humans.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 10, 2008 6:37:57 GMT -5
i agree with the nexus. i never got that either. unless you somehow move one of the elements surrounding the house so that they are not all equidistant from the manor.
somehow i dont think demons have the power to remove the water from san francisco bay!
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 10, 2008 13:06:41 GMT -5
Has nothing to do with liking it or not liking it. I loved Paige's & Henry's love story, even tho it was too rushed, and adored little Wyatt. Him in the pumpkin costume is one of the most adorable scenes in the whole show (even though his mother used magic for personal gain to make the costume)
It has to do with how Piper-centric the whole thing was, how completely inconsistent it was with the rest of Charmed and how it simply made no sense. I mean there's an explosion and Piper walks away without a single broken bone, while Paige doesn't even panic-orb! If she panic-orbed from that car accident that killed her folks, she sure would've panic-orbed from this! Give me a break! And everyone with three kids and they all live happily ever after, despite the fact that the sisters performed premeditated murder on a couple of fellow witches. Oh, barf! Give me a break!
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Post by *Sammi!* on Feb 10, 2008 13:56:30 GMT -5
wow! erm... well said Es, however... Cole?
Like I originally said, nature vs nuture. maybe evil in the first instance but then fell in love with Phoebe.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 13:57:09 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that the elements they had used in "Is There a Woogy in the House?" - earth, fire, water, wood, metal - is associated with Chinese philosophy, not Wiccan philosophy. Wiccan philosophy is associated with earth, fire, water, air, and spirit.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 10, 2008 18:33:58 GMT -5
And it always happened because of the interference of other demons, the demonic cult, The Source, The Siren, or the Avatars.
If Cole had been left alone, he could have rejected Evil by his own free will, due to his anger over what had happened to his father. Wasn't Cole trying to free his father Benjamin Turner's soul at the end of Season 3?
The reason Cole was vanquished as a demon was because he inserted himself into the Avatar-created alternate universe, and assumed his former body as Belthazor. And he was killed by his lover, Evil Phoebe, whom he was married to in that alternate universe.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 10, 2008 18:35:36 GMT -5
Cole didn't choose Evil because of his genetic heritage...he chose Evil because he was raised by Elizabeth Turner, a demon who killed her mortal husband in cold blood.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 10, 2008 18:36:57 GMT -5
Paige clearly wasn't thinking clearly, because she was possessed by The Hollow.
The Hollow would have made the Charmed Ones completely fearless, and Paige would have lost her instinct to panic-orb.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 21:29:04 GMT -5
Cole chose evil in the end, because his emotions over his breakup with Phoebe got the best of him. Just as Piper's own darkness got the best of her over her due to her emotional inability to deal with Prue's death and Leo's promotion as an Elder. Just as Prue's final inability to deal with the deaths of those close to her - Grams, Patty and Andy - finally got the best of her. Inspector Reece's death happened to be the last straw, which is why she tried to beat that Seeker to death in a fit of rage.
It was his own emotions that led to Cole's downfall, not his demonic heritage, not being raised by his mother and certainly not his powers.
Despite his upbrining or his status as half-demon, Cole was not that different from the Halliwells or anyone else. Not really.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 10, 2008 21:37:05 GMT -5
And it always happened because of the interference of other demons, the demonic cult, The Source, The Siren, or the Avatars. If Cole had been left alone, he could have rejected Evil by his own free will, due to his anger over what had happened to his father. Wasn't Cole trying to free his father Benjamin Turner's soul at the end of Season 3? The reason Cole was vanquished as a demon was because he inserted himself into the Avatar-created alternate universe, and assumed his former body as Belthazor. And he was killed by his lover, Evil Phoebe, whom he was married to in that alternate universe. you cant speculate that if evil didnt constantly go after cole then he would have been good. thats a cop out. evil constantly attacked the charmed ones on a daily basis, yet on the whole, they still remained good. (apart from the personal gain every now and then) if evil did not attack then there would be no show! and they would all sing songs whilst dancing around a maypole! and he other argument that phoebe killed cole as a lover in the alternate universe. isnt it funny how cole chose to live in a world where he was evil? and if you remember rightly, in that universe phoebe was not in love with cole, she was married, but they both constantly cheated on eachother. the only reason phoebe stayed was so cole did not kill her only remaining sister, piper. phoebe killed cole with a demon vanquishing potion. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 21:38:56 GMT -5
Cole succumbed to evil because the writers needed a cop out that featured bad writing to get Julian McMahon off the show.
The Halliwells didn't remain good. The writers simply refused to acknowledge the real evil they had committed - Cole's murder in late S4, the theft of Darryl's soul, Rick Guttridge's murder, Piper committing fraud by purchasing non-inspected fruit, Leo's murder of Gideon, helping the Avatars commit psychic rape upon humanity and the attempted genocide of demons - and instead, focused on their minor crimes.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 11, 2008 21:03:28 GMT -5
cole lost the plot in the end. and bad writing? i thought the 100th episode where cole left was one of the best episodes. i really enjoyed it. if cole had stayed any longer in the show his character would have become stale. i think he could not have left at a more perfect time. cole is one of the characters Kern didn't stuff up.
and as far as portraying the girls as good. Kern HAD to portray the girls as good. they are the HEROES of the show. if they weren't seen as the good guys then all you would have is a show with a whole heap of demons and corrupt witches. that does not have a nice ring to it. and i'm sure the WB would have been furious.
sure the girl's stuffed up big time on several occasions. that was kern's way of showing that the girls were not perfect. but at the end of the day the girls had to remain good, otherwise there was no story.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 11, 2008 23:02:36 GMT -5
I thought it was crap . . . as I have stated numerous times. But hey . . . we can't agree on everything, I guess. ;D
As for your belief that Cole's character would have become stale if he had remained . . . perhaps you're right. Look at how stale the other main characters became.
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Post by adambiker on Feb 12, 2008 1:44:30 GMT -5
i think he started out evil but his love for pheobe changed him to the good side. but then of corse the source made him do evil so he couldnt help but be evil. and after that when he realized there love was gone he reverted back because the love wasnt there to keep him good
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 12, 2008 2:46:37 GMT -5
As for your belief that Cole's character would have become stale if he had remained . . . perhaps you're right. Look at how stale the other main characters became. i just think his character could not have been anymore developed without repeating a previous storyline. he had been evil, fell in love with phoebe, saved her life on numerous occasions, tried to be good despite evil powers, been hunted by bounty hunters, lost his powers to stay with phoebe, been the source of all evil, vanquished, returned back from the wasteland even more powerful, been divorced by phoebe, tried to kill himself, been invincible, tried to change the past so phoebe was still in love with him, ..... i mean what else could his character do? his storylines were always well acted, so he made them seem believable. but it was clear that phoebe wanted, and needed to move on, and for phoebe to move on, cole had to go. and as for the comment that the other characters became stale, when you are in your eighth season, you have had severe financial cutbacks, you are using the same 3 main characters, you have to introduce new characters, you dont recieve as much support as you should from the network, your show does not get many promos, there are other shows similar to you such as buffy, angel etc. your characters have changed the world several times, destroyed the source of all evil, killed almost every demon in the book, lost a sister, gained a sister, vanquished several boyfriends (or husbands) had children, lost their powers, gained more powers, saved the human community, saved the magical community, all whilst trying o lead normal lives...... i think Kern and all the other writers, producers and crew did a fantastic job at the show. they developed the characters as much as they could for the time slot they were in. |
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