Was Cole Evil?

[colehellsangel]

Well obviously he was born and raised evil, so yes for most of his life he was evil. But he learned to harness it because his humanity allowed him to feel love for a being of good.

But I believe Phoebe actually pushed him over the edge when she took Belthazor from him due to lack of accepting him for what he was and this made him vulnerable to the Source's possession and made her blind to that same possession.

[*Sammi!*]

pubesy said:

cole is one of the characters Kern didn't stuff up.

Even though I absolutely adore Cole, there was so much more they could have explored with his character. Kern stuffed alot of the characters up, and maybe not as much with Cole, but there was a bit of a mess made really.

I agree with Coleshellangel, that it was Phoebe who initially pushed him right over the edge. She didnt make him give up Belthazar, but as you saw in "Black as Cole" it appeared as though Cole wanted to abandon that side of him to enable Phoebe to love him more, it was more personal choice. The fact that someone did it for him, just made it easier for him to say goodbye.

One of my favourite scenes between Phoebe and Cole was the one at the end of "Black as Cole" when Cole is at his most vulnerable, and Phoebe is trying to reassure him its for the best. You can see his love for Phoebe in his eyes, and this is what made the fact that he was now mortal, easier for him.

[ljones]

i just think his character could not have been anymore developed without repeating a previous storyline. he had been evil, fell in love with phoebe, saved her life on numerous occasions, tried to be good despite evil powers, been hunted by bounty hunters, lost his powers to stay with phoebe, been the source of all evil, vanquished, returned back from the wasteland even more powerful, been divorced by phoebe, tried to kill himself, been invincible, tried to change the past so phoebe was still in love with him, ..... i mean what else could his character do?

The writers could have created a storyline in which Cole faced his mother. They could have also allowed him to learn how to become a mixture of both light and darkness. I never wanted or demanded that Cole become some do-gooder who goes around helping others. That was meaningless to me. I did demand that the writers allow Cole to develop into an ambiguous character who learned to balance both the good and bad within him. But considering that the series had failed to do this with the three main characters, perhaps they would have never learned how to develop Cole's character in the end.

[pubesy]

The writers could have created a storyline in which Cole faced his mother. They could have also allowed him to learn how to become a mixture of both light and darkness. I never wanted or demanded that Cole become some do-gooder who goes around helping others. That was meaningless to me. I did demand that the writers allow Cole to develop into an ambiguous character who learned to balance both the good and bad within him.

cole's character was never supposed to be able to balance good and evil. it has been stated by one of the writers that Julian's character was never meant to be able to completely suppress the evil within him, no matter what he and the sisters tried. he was always ultimately supposed to be evil, but with good intentions.
his character was supposed to show that love does not always conquer all, and sometimes, no matter how much two people love each other, it can never and will never work.

kind of romeo and Juliette-ish.

i don't think meeting his mother would have developed his character. because what would happen? he would either end up vanquishing his own mother, which would just make him seem cold and evil anyway. or her would end up asking why, which would just make him seem weak, its not like his mother would have said "i'm sorry for raising you evil."

[ljones]

cole's character was never supposed to be able to balance good and evil. it has been stated by one of the writers that Julian's character was never meant to be able to completely suppress the evil within him, no matter what he and the sisters tried. he was always ultimately supposed to be evil, but with good intentions.
his character was supposed to show that love does not always conquer all, and sometimes, no matter how much two people love each other, it can never and will never work.

kind of romeo and Juliette-ish.

One . . . supressing one's evil side? NOT HEALTHY!! I would not recommend it.

Two . . . what was the point in creating the character in the first place when Kern planned to nothing with Cole's character?

What a moron! No wonder so many people view him with contempt! To take a first-class character like that and don't even bother to try to develop him? And his idea of developing Cole was to wipe away or suppress the darkness within him, while at the same time ignoring the Halliwells' own darkness? Moron!

I'm sorry if I sound emotional, but after reading the above, I cannot help but feel that Brad Kern had no business being a TV producer, let alone a d**n writer! No wonder fanfiction writers have shown more success with Cole's character than Kern and his crackmonkeys!

Well obviously he was born and raised evil,

Born evil? HUH?

[pubesy]

ljones said:

One . . . supressing one's evil side? NOT HEALTHY!! I would not recommend it.

Two . . . what was the point in creating the character in the first place when Kern planned to nothing with Cole's character?

Well obviously he was born and raised evil,

Born evil? HUH?

EXACTLY.....cole could never suppress his evil side for very long. its like asking a bear not to be a bear.

Kern did HEAPS with coles character, but in the end he WAS evil. love for phoebe was not enough.

and i think whoever wrote the above quote meant they were born INTO evil

[ljones]

EXACTLY.....cole could never suppress his evil side for very long. its like asking a bear not to be a bear.

Kern did HEAPS with coles character, but in the end he WAS evil. love for phoebe was not enough.

and i think whoever wrote the above quote meant they were born INTO evil

What do you mean by that? "It's like asking a bear not to be a bear"? I'm sorry, but that's crap to me. I absolutely refuse to buy the series premise that demons are automatically evil. I find such morality rather immature.

Did Cole have a penchant for evil? Yes. Not because he was half-demon or was raised in the demonic world of the Source. If the writers had allowed it, he could have overcame such a background. It's possible. Cole had a penchant for evil, because he possessed emotions and desires like everyone else. For me, his penchant for evil was just the same as humanity's penchant for evil. I've seen human characters on that show more evil than him.

But in my opinion? Cole gave into evil in the end, because the d**n writers lacked the brains and imagination to allow his character to develop . . . an ability that many fan fiction writers seem to possess.

But considering the number of times that the Halliwells gave in to their own inner evil over the years, why point out Cole's prediliction for evil? The sisters and Leo were no better than he . . . no matter how many times they had "protected the innocent" or declared themselves good and pure. They kept succumbing to their own darker impulses. Even worse, the show failed to point this own or kept making excuses for them.

I'm not trying to say that Cole would never turned evil. But what is the point of focusing on his evil nature, when the series has proven that the Halliwells and Leo were in reality, no better than him?

[pubesy]

the idea that demons are evil is not immature on my part, its written into the storyline. i just chose to accept this fact, and go with it, just so the show is more "believable." i mean, demons are mythological creatures, so does it really matter that the show writes them as inherently evil? i am not talking about cole specifically, just full blooded demons in general.

demons are not like humans. (ok, i will admit in the later seasons, when they had budget cuts that demons were merely humans with eyeliner and trench coats. but remember in earlier seasons demons were actually banshees or werewolves or ghosts or big scary, ugly looking things that were far from human?) in one show it was stated that demons had a completely different genome? a triple helix or something?

i mean, chimpanzees have over 97% of the same DNA as us, and even they cant act human. remember the experiment where a baby boy and a baby male chimp were raised in the same home in exactly the same way. both the boy and the chimp were developmentally the same until the age of 2 and a half when the boy and the chimp were being taught speech and manners, learning right from wrong, and other such essential human behaviour. the boy could pick these skills up but the chimp couldn't. in the end they had to remove the chimp from the house because he became frustrated and disruptive, the human boy began imitating the chimp.

how is this relevant you may ask? well if a chimp has 97% of the same DNA and cannot be anything but a chimp, how can you expect a demon who has a completely different genome to act human and have the morality of a human?

I am not saying that the charmed ones were always good. they were far from it. the charmed ones were HUMAN. humans are never completely good or completely evil. humans make mistakes and learn from them. selfishness, temptation, and envy are normal human behaviours. and sure, the charmed ones did fall prey to these behaviours. but they also did heaps of selfless deeds. the charmed ones were never completely good. but they were definitely not evil.

cole on the other hand was half human half demon. so sure he had a much better chance than any demon to act like a human and be a human per say. but he was also a demon raised by demons.

thats got to mean something.

[whitelightertony]

I agree with Coleshellangel, that it was Phoebe who initially pushed him right over the edge. She didnt make him give up Belthazar, but as you saw in "Black as Cole" it appeared as though Cole wanted to abandon that side of him to enable Phoebe to love him more, it was more personal choice. The fact that someone did it for him, just made it easier for him to say goodbye.

Actually, it was The Seer. She's the one who plotted to place The Source's essence into Cole's body.

If Cole had remained a powerless mortal, maybe he and Phoebe would have broken up eventually? But I highly doubt a powerless mortal Cole would have hired himself out to work for demons.

[whitelightertony]

The writers could have created a storyline in which Cole faced his mother.

This is a storyline I truly would have loved to have seen.

I believe that Cole's ability to do good in the world came from the faint memory of his father, Benjamin Turner, who was yanked away from Cole at such a tender early age.

[ljones]

I believe that Cole's ability to do good came from the fact that like all sentient beings and forces of nature, he had both good and evil within him. Like the Charmed Ones. I wish the show had broadened their view of morality and allow even demons to be portrayed as morally ambiguous as the ancients did long ago or as they were sometimes viewed on BUFFY and ANGEL, instead of the one-note villains they turned out to be.

the idea that demons are evil is not immature on my part, its written into the storyline.

I don't care if it was written into the storyline. I still consider such portrayal of demons as immature. But if you don't . . . then you don't.

[Kit-the-cat]

Cole was evil in a way, as the things that he had done in his life were the acts of evil. But in Season 4, no way was he evil. Him being taken over by a evil essense did not make HIM evil cos it was not him, it was the Source. I dont believe that Cole is evil.I do believe that he was, but when he was killed he wasn't evil, just extremly un-hinged, but his missing screw didn't make him evil at all ( just Crrazzzyyyy). He had good intentions, Phoebe just never let him follow them through. She never let him redeem himself. Cole never stood a chance of being "Good" in season 5.

[pubesy]

He had good intentions, Phoebe just never let him follow them through. She never let him redeem himself. Cole never stood a chance of being "Good" in season 5.

phoebe had just had enough. and i don't blame her for wanting cole out of her life. he had been given so many chances to be good, i mean, she even stripped his powers! but every time for whatever reason, he returned to evil. and i know most times it was through demonic possession and acts that were not entirely his fault. but it didn't matter.

i mean, put yourself in phoebe's shoes. he has lied to you and was hired by the source to kill you, you have lied to your sister about killing him (season 3) because you found out he was belthazor, your home was under threat because of bounty hunters after him, he has on numerous occasions, been possessed and tried to kill you or your sisters, he cannot stop using his demonic powers even though you have asked him not to, and the most obvious being posessed by the source and convincing you to become the queen of all evil by absolute manipulation!

i think after vanquishing cole/source, was the time phoebe realise that it could never and should never work. i think becoming the queen of all evil shook phoebe and made her realise the danger her love for cole put her in. thats why she wanted to say goodbye for good to cole in the demonic wasteland. enough is enough.

when cole came out of the wasteland with a ridiculous amount of powers she had every right to tell him to piss off. she was done with it. and she had every right to be.

[ljones]

phoebe had just had enough. and i don't blame her for wanting cole out of her life. he had been given so many chances to be good, i mean, she even stripped his powers! but every time for whatever reason, he returned to evil. and i know most times it was through demonic possession and acts that were not entirely his fault. but it didn't matter.

Phoebe had enough of . . . what? She didn't even bother to find out what really happened. The writers didn't allow it. They didn't allow the Halliwells to exercise their brains and find out what really happened to Cole. They didn't allow Cole to tell the Halliwells what happened. Instead, they dumped their crappy early S5 storyline on the viewers with enough plotholes to resemble Swiss cheese.

All the writers did was portray Phoebe as some immature woman who has a tendency to run from relationships when things go wrong. That's it. I'm surprised that Cole had remained in love with her, considering all the crap SHE had put him through. But that's the crackmonkey writers for you. The Halliwells always have to be in the right.

Speaking of lies . . . despite the fact that Cole knew she was a witch, Phoebe never took the trouble to tell him that she was one. It was the same situation with Piper and Leo in Season 1. All of these relationships - Prue/Andy, Piper/Leo, Piper/Dan, Phoebe/Cole and Phoebe/Jason - were filled with lies. And the Halliwells were just as guilty as Leo and Cole.

[ina]

I think, Cole was demonic, but not evil. He was a demon, that's right. And he also did really bad things, but I think that was because he was raised by a demon.
But nevertheless there was also a good side inside of him. This good side came out, when he fell in love with Phoebe, but I guess it had always been there. But when they "broke up" his good side wasn't strong enough anymore to fight the bad one and he couldn't control himself (and probably didn't want to anymore anyway)

[pubesy]

ljones said:

phoebe had just had enough. and i don't blame her for wanting cole out of her life. he had been given so many chances to be good, i mean, she even stripped his powers! but every time for whatever reason, he returned to evil. and i know most times it was through demonic possession and acts that were not entirely his fault. but it didn't matter.

Phoebe had enough of . . . what? She didn't even bother to find out what really happened. The writers didn't allow it. They didn't allow the Halliwells to exercise their brains and find out what really happened to Cole. They didn't allow Cole to tell the Halliwells what happened. Instead, they dumped their crappy early S5 storyline on the viewers with enough plotholes to resemble Swiss cheese.

All the writers did was portray Phoebe as some immature woman who has a tendency to run from relationships when things go wrong. That's it. I'm surprised that Cole had remained in love with her, considering all the crap SHE had put him through. But that's the crackmonkey writers for you. The Halliwells always have to be in the right.

Speaking of lies . . . despite the fact that Cole knew she was a witch, Phoebe never took the trouble to tell him that she was one. It was the same situation with Piper and Leo in Season 1. All of these relationships - Prue/Andy, Piper/Leo, Piper/Dan, Phoebe/Cole and Phoebe/Jason - were filled with lies. And the Halliwells were just as guilty as Leo and Cole.

somehow i don't think it matters that phoebe did not say she was a witch, she didn't have to. he knew from the word go. and so did leo, so i don't know what you were going on about there. and sure, the girls didn't tell them that they were witches, it doesn't make them wrong..... its not like they go around telling everyone. they wanted to trust them first.

phoebe was the BABY of the sisters, she ran away from EVERYTHING when it became too hard. School, Grams' death, dealing with prue's criticisms. so it would make sense that she may run away from a relationship. that was her personality. but she fought for cole on several occasions. she was convinced he was good inside. but after the source thingie, she gave up.

and yes ljones, i completely agree that it was stupid not to let at least phoebe know that he was possessed by the source. but in the long run, it think phoebe would not have cared.

[ljones]

somehow i don't think it matters that phoebe did not say she was a witch, she didn't have to.

Well . . . this is another subject that we COMPLETELY DISAGREE on.

phoebe was the BABY of the sisters, she ran away from EVERYTHING when it became too hard. School, Grams' death, dealing with prue's criticisms. so it would make sense that she may run away from a relationship. that was her personality. but she fought for cole on several occasions. she was convinced he was good inside. but after the source thingie, she gave up.

Just because it was in character for Phoebe to run away from her problems . . . does not mean that she was right to do so.

and yes ljones, i completely agree that it was stupid not to let at least phoebe know that he was possessed by the source. but in the long run, it think phoebe would not have cared.

It feels as if you're making a judgment on something that you or any of us really know. How do you know exactly how Phoebe would have reacted if she had known the truth? I don't know how she would have reacted. I don't even know how Piper, Paige or Leo would have reacted.

and sure, the girls didn't tell them that they were witches, it doesn't make them wrong..... its not like they go around telling everyone. they wanted to trust them first.

Why do fans keep making excuses for the girls lying about themselves to guys they are serious about? Not only did Prue constantly lied to Andy for nearly a year, the only time she told the truth, she used a spell to do so. Piper had dated Dan for nearly an entire season . . . until she told him the truth after she had broken up with him. I can only wonder how long Piper or Leo would have revealed the truth to each other, if Leo had not encountered that darklighter. I can only wonder how long Phoebe would have revealed the truth to each other if that zoltar had not hunted down Cole. Phoebe had dated Jason for nearly a year without telling him that she was a witch. Paige had constantly nagged her during Season 6 for lying to Jason.

In fact, Paige seemed to be the only sister capable of being honest with the men in her life. Unless I'm wrong about one or two guys.

[pubesy]

Just because it was in character for Phoebe to run away from her problems . . . does not mean that she was right to do so.

i agree to an extent with this statement, you cant always run away from problems. and sure, running away after grams' death was not the best move, however season 5 i do not see how phoebe was running away from cole. she wasn't. she told him to back off and that she did not want anything to do with him anymore. that is not running away. he was stalking her at stages.

How do you know exactly how Phoebe would have reacted if she had known the truth?

yes, i was speculating here. it was stupid how the writers never let phoebe know why and how cole became the source. but when you are talking about somehing that never happened, all you can do is speculate. its just my gut instinct to think that phoebe wouldn't care that it was because he was possesed.

Why do fans keep making excuses for the girls lying about themselves to guys they are serious about?

its not about making excuseses, its about having a different opinion to another person. i just dont like blaming everything thats a bit wonky on bad writing, or the charmed ones being hypocrytically "bad." maybe there is another explination.

Not only did Prue constantly lied to Andy for nearly a year, the only time she told the truth, she used a spell to do so. Piper had dated Dan for nearly an entire season . . . until she told him the truth after she had broken up with him. I can only wonder how long Piper or Leo would have revealed the truth to each other, if Leo had not encountered that darklighter. I can only wonder how long Phoebe would have revealed the truth to each other if that zoltar had not hunted down Cole. Phoebe had dated Jason for nearly a year without telling him that she was a witch. Paige had constantly nagged her during Season 6 for lying to Jason.

see, this is where i find the argument that the girls were never completely honest in any relationship a bit seedy. you have just stated that piper wasn't honest to leo, or phoebe to cole about their secret. but were leo and cole any better? its not like they were openly upfront about their magical abilities, or that they knew they were charmed, or their secret agendas for being close to the girls (leo- being their guardian angel, cole- killing the charmed ones). so how can you blame the charmed ones for their lack of honesty, and not the boys as well?

EVERY relationship has it's secrets. no one goes into a relationship completly unguarded and tells their partner-to-be every little piece of dirty laundry. you dont tell a partner any important secrets until you trust the person completely. being charmed was their big secret, and rightly so.

phoebe did not run away from cole. after marrying cole and becomming the queen of all evil, she became heartbroken at the divide her relationship caused between her and her sisters, and frustrated that she had to chose between her husband and her sisters. she did not run away from this situation. she faced it head on. she chose her sisters, as she should have. she vanquished her husband.

when cole called to phoebe and came back from the wasteland begging for her to take him back, she stuck by her choice to end the relationship. if phoebe returned to cole, then phoebe would have been running away, running away from reality.

i am not saying that phoebe, at this point was not in love with cole. she did still love him very much. but she loved her sisters even more and she knew that her love for cole was not enough.

i've been in a relationships where i just knew it could never work, no matter how you feel about the person. and i'm sure heaps of others have too. sometimes its just not worth fighting for anymore because you know that person will never change no matter how hard they try, or you try and convince them that the way they are living is not healthy. you have no choice but to end the relationship, no matter how much you love them.

it sucks, but its life.

[ljones]

i've been in a relationships where i just knew it could never work, no matter how you feel about the person. and i'm sure heaps of others have too. sometimes its just not worth fighting for anymore because you know that person will never change no matter how hard they try, or you try and convince them that the way they are living is not healthy. you have no choice but to end the relationship, no matter how much you love them.

I agree, except . . . how can we simply accept that Phoebe and Cole would have never worked out, when Phoebe didn't even know that Cole had been possessed by the Source?

This is what I have against the breakup in the first place. It was poorly handled and I got the feeling that Kern and his writers were insulting the viewers' intelligence. If Cole and Phoebe had come to some understanding over what really happened in late Season 4 and still remained apart . . . I would have accepted it. But the writers allowed Phoebe to push Cole away without her ever learning the truth about what happened. Even worse, her pushing Cole away came on the heels of the sisters killing him without learning the truth.

This is the problem with the ending of the Source's arc and Cole's eventual departure. The writers took the trouble to establish that Cole became the Source against his will. Then they allowed the Halliwells to kill him without even learning the truth what happened to him. And when he returned from the Wasteland . . . the writers still failed to allow the Halliwells to learn the truth and tried to convince the audience that Cole had deliberately accepted evil and wanted to be the Source. All so that we can accept that it was okay for Phoebe to push him away. They even capped this in Season 7's "The Seven Year Witch" by having Cole admit to Piper that he had deliberately wanted to be the Source and that he had deliberately tried to get Phoebe pregnant. Well, this is false. All one has to do is watch the late Season 4 episodes and read the transcripts to realize this.

I agree that if it seemed that a relationship is not going to work that that relationship should end. But . . . Kern and his writers tried to change canon around so that he could break up Phoebe and Cole . . . and in a way that would leave the audience sympathetic toward her. And he had handled the situation with poor writing and a great deal of inconsistency.

Why should I accept that Phoebe was right to break up with Cole, when Kern tried to reverse what really happened to Cole in late Season 4? Why should I accept that Cole was basically no good, because he would always revert to evil . . . when the Halliwells committed some of their worst acts following Cole's departure - the theft of Darryl's soul, Rick Gittridge's murder and the deal with the Avatars - and the writers either dismissed their acts or tried to pretend that it wasn't wrong? It's hypocricy of the worst kind. If there is one thing I dislike more than anything, it's hypocricy. I also dislike someone insulting my intelligence. And Kern's handling of the Phoebe/Cole breakup really insulted mine.

[whitelightertony]

I believe that Cole's ability to do good came from the fact that like all sentient beings and forces of nature, he had both good and evil within him.

Under that hypothesis, the terms "good" and "evil" are either relative or ambiguous.

We don't know enough about Cole's backstory and personal history (pre-2000) to really say what his 115 years on Earth were like. This is why I believe there must have been some remnants of goodness remaining from Benjamin Turner that stuck with Cole. Perhaps it was due to the fact that Ben's soul was never able to fully move on?