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Post by Melinda Halliwell on May 29, 2019 3:06:28 GMT -5
I agree the lack of use of Phoebe's powers once she got her premonitions back in season 7 bugged me.
I saw this video on YouTube where a fan commented on how Phoebe's visions could've advanced which would've been useful having levitation no longer till the comics due to budgetary reasons and no Empathy also.
Phoebe's intuition could've kicked in further anticipating danger when evil was about to attack or someone was in danger via other means. When said evil struck Phoebe knowing their moves accommodated accordingly which would've gone great with her martial arts skills.
The BOS would've been like an encyclopedia where Phoebe touching and focusing on it got a vision on info about something they needed to know whether it's what villain they were after and how to vanquish it without opening up to the page saving research time.
She could've seen mentally where an innocent was in the local area when Piper, Paige, and her got to a demon vanquish.
And finally, Phoebe been psychic could've been more sensitive to people if she thought something was off about them and got a vision of that like when Paige had the chill about the creepy house in season 4 then. Another mistake with the show was Paige quitting her social work job which fit her well been adopted and an only child until she met her sisters, was something she liked doing helping people, had trained in health and social care I'm assuming that went to waste. Was a place where innocents could be found I.e. Tyler Michaels and Carolyn that could've continued if the Elders let Paige be White Lighter part-time.
Practising magic full time did nothing in season 5 because what she'd learnt wasn't utilised anywhere. Bad writing. And then at the end, she wanted to work again temp jobs no less though some were useful when they crossed paths with innocents she helped primarily.
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codebox
Familiar
Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on May 29, 2019 4:09:03 GMT -5
I agree the lack of use of Phoebe's powers once she got her premonitions back in season 7 bugged me. I saw this video on YouTube where a fan commented on how Phoebe's visions could've advanced which would've been useful having levitation no longer till the comics due to budgetary reasons and no Empathy also. Phoebe's intuition could've kicked in further anticipating danger when evil was about to attack or someone was in danger via other means. When said evil struck Phoebe knowing their moves accommodated accordingly which would've gone great with her martial arts skills. The BOS would've been like an encyclopedia where Phoebe touching and focusing on it got a vision on info about something they needed to know whether it's what villain they were after and how to vanquish it without opening up to the page saving research time. She could've seen mentally where an innocent was in the local area when Piper, Paige, and her got to a demon vanquish. And finally, Phoebe been psychic could've been more sensitive to people if she thought something was off about them and got a vision of that like when Paige had the chill about the creepy house in season 4 then. Another mistake with the show was Paige quitting her social work job which fit her well been adopted and an only child until she met her sisters, was something she liked doing helping people, had trained in health and social care I'm assuming that went to waste. Was a place where innocents could be found I.e. Tyler Michaels and Carolyn that could've continued if the Elders let Paige be White Lighter part-time. Practising magic full time did nothing in season 5 because what she'd learnt wasn't utilised anywhere. Bad writing. And then at the end, she wanted to work again temp jobs no less though some were useful when they crossed paths with innocents she helped primarily. That does sound like an interesting concept. Honestly even when PhoeME got her Premonition power back it almost felt like she didn't have it. As after that the only times she does use it have to do with something of her self involvement (for instance going stage 5 clinger for Dex, or finding men). This was also a problem I had with the later seasons in general (aside from what's already been said) Phoebe and by extension Paige would overrely on just using potion that more often than not didn't work or got destroyed, when most of those times Paige would've benefited more simply by TK Orbing. A good example of this is the episode "A Witch in Time" where the demons planning on stealing their powers throws an athame at them, Piper freezes it and rather than TK Orb both the athame or BOS Paige just resorts to throwing a potion. It's like the later seasons forgot they were witches at times. Paige may be my favorite sister, but I'm not letting that one go! Phoebe was so infrequent when it came to demon vanquishes that I didn't know she had powers. I wouldn't even classify her as a witch after the second half of season 6 considering she might as well been a mortal. She didn't even cast any spells really as a way to make up for her lack of power. In fact she'd be put in situations where a demon would attack her or Piper and Paige do all the work. Not even going to use that martial arts of yours Phoebe? Or did your journey searching for a boy toy make you forget? Early season Phoebe knew when to use a spell or martial arts when things got tough. Remember "The Painted World" she fought off a warlock (Malcolm and Jane) on her own and saved Piper and Prue by herself through a spell and martial arts! There was even "Which Prue is it Anyway" where she helps with the finishing touch by kicking Gabriel so Prue would send his sword back at him. Phoebe just had to use Potions by necessity. Paige would switch between smartly and stupidly using her TK Orbing. Piper meanwhile almost never froze anything. In fact I know some fans who didn't know Piper could freeze after season 5 besides the Valhalley of Downward Spiral (my nickname for the episode) where she saved Daryl. Just to note I'm not against the girls using potions, after all use what you have from the craft. I just hate when it came at the expense of their abilities. I liked Paige practicing magic full time, it allowed her to be what she loved. Plus during the later half of the show if Paige didn't remind the audience "Hey this is a show about witches" then who would? Considering PhoeME and Whinper (Viper in Season 8) just saw it as an inconvenience. It reminded me of a subtle, but more tame version of Willow's magic addition from Buffy Season 6. Without the focus or story of course. I just wish it didn't sacrifice her Social Worker job, it would've been such an interesting concept to keep around. Too bad Paige got shafted for the Great PhoeME One!
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on May 29, 2019 15:48:29 GMT -5
Alas, poor Phoebe where did you go?đđđ
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Post by gzv969 on May 29, 2019 18:06:16 GMT -5
Phoebes powers were just all over the place. I donât think the writers had any interest in progressing her powers in the proper way. She gets it, it becomes unreliable, she gets it back, them misuses it, then looses it. Back and forth charmed.fandom.com/wiki/Phoebe_Halliwell%2FPower_DevelopmentFor her powers not working properly in season 5 âthe eyes have itâ. I can understand that. Having been the queen of the underworld and dealing with Cole could easily have cause that. When she gets empathy in season 6, that completely throws her off using her premonition powers as she starts relying more on empathy . It should have been an enhancement to her premonitions but she never got a proper handle on it. Not like how Kira used hers. But the main issue I see with phoebes unreliable powers started with the vision quest that the shawman sent her on. It did more harm than good. Phoebe sees herself pregnant in the future at the manor and instead of it doing good to make her powers more reliable, it instead sets her on this path of chasing the future she saw, knowing that certain things had to start happening for the future she saw to happen. And I donât blame her. Who wouldnât want to know. She seeks to find out who her potential mate is the entire rest of the season and gets all her powers taken away in the process. Then comes season 7. She has just earned her premonition powers back in âStyx feet underâ. But then 5 episodes later, Kira shares a premonition of the future utopia with her and sees her future daughter again, and it starts her crazy obsession all over again. A premonition that was probably falsely implanted by the avatars. This ends up with her not believing in her powers anymore by the time season 8 comes along. She looses faith in them and doesnât want to use them anymore. Primarily because she knows that she should have already been pregnant around that time in order for her premonition of the future to line up with reality. Itâs not until the end of âHulkus Pocusâ season 8, after getting a power boost from the krychecks infected blood that she gets a solid premonition that clarifies everything for her. One I believe the elders may have sent her to try and fix things. I think the elders felt guilty, realized how much her premonition powers had messed her up so they sent her that premonition and a Cupid to help her find true love and fulfill the future she saw in that premonition.
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Post by gzv969 on May 29, 2019 18:17:54 GMT -5
But overall I believe phoebes strongest suit as a charmed one was more with her smartness, use of spells, willingness to take risks and figuring things out. Thats when sheâs able to concentrate and focus. Premonitions and empathy were just added bonuses. Piper said it best in âA Painted Worldâ.
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Post by Katie Warren on May 29, 2019 21:02:38 GMT -5
But overall I believe phoebes strongest suit as a charmed one was more with her smartness, use of spells, willingness to take risks and figuring things out. Thats when sheâs able to concentrate and focus. Premonitions and empathy were just added bonuses. Piper said it best in âA Painted Worldâ. Me too. I think I also like her love for magic, and how much she read the book of shadows early on. She was at her best when she figured stuff out and just wrote spells, took risks, used her martial arts. She had all she needed, she didn't need an active power, she was an asset in her own right.
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Post by gleamingroses on Jun 24, 2019 5:08:39 GMT -5
-Piper making the Golden Gate Bridge Disappear with the vanquishing spell out of Spite for the Cleaners. Meaning she would sacrifice the lives of innocent people simply to spite the Cleaners for taking away Wyatt when it was her careless parenting that started it.
-Piper while in jail glamored as Maya Holmes freezes a prion inmate then beats her over the face with a tray. Yes the inmate was a criminal, but she basically assaulted a mortal.
-Piper turning the news reporters/journalists into rodents- Season 8 Piper is truly a work of art isn't she? A whiny sociopath she's become. As such she finds it justified to turn the news media at their doorstep into rodents simply because they annoyed her. Even worse during an exchanged with Paige who calls her out she opted to just blow them up as a backup solution. I really hate Season 8 Piper!
-Phoebe forcing a false romance with Dex Lawson under a complete lie. Phoebe's so desperate for lust at this point she's willing to abuse her glamour and take advantage of a man under the identity of someone else to whom he has no idea is a false person. Leading him to date Phoebe under a false assumption.
-Phoebe refusing to let Cole live or die simply because its not on the terms she obliges by. So in Sam I Am Phoebe refuses to let Cole commit suicide, yet she wants him to longer live as long as her terms have her stamp of approval? Wow PhoeME the only thing you win is worst Charmed One of the year award, put that on your Column.
-The Charmed Ones all of a sudden turning their backs on their fellow magical colleagues. I guess Season 8 just gave up, because apparently they could care less for their magical folk. They abuse them to do favors for them, then constantly make jabs at how much they hate Leperchauns because of what exactly? Even worse they send them out on the battlefield as fodder simply to save face against Billie and Christy.
-The Charmed Ones bartering with Avatars to create a Utopia. Without even questioning the Charmed Ones (namely Piper and Phoebe) just go along with the Utopia simply because its a world of their own desires and because it means they don't have to fight demons, which is a terrible excuse. Not only that they only decide to take it back by remembering their losses!
-Paige Glamoring herself as a Co worker, only to have her assault the boss with a flower pot. While Paige might had good intentions, it doesn't savor the fact she unknowingly framed a woman for assault. And this was the same episode where they got Wyatt taken away for irresponsible use of their powers and their responsibilities.
-Phoebe and Paige Glamoring Rick to look like Chris to get him melted by demons. Wouldn't be a list without the infamous scene from Hyde School Reunion! Especially when Paige could've solved the situation by orbing. It's like the show forgets about her telekinesis orbing at times.
-Piper tries to blow Billie up by throwing a potion at her and Christy. Yep Piper just resorts to violence rather than talking to Billie, leading to building more distrust between her and the Jenkinses.
-The Charmed Ones neglecting to fight the Imp Master and keeping Billie from attacking him. It's a blink and you miss it moment, but in Rewitched Piper insists Billie shouldn't chase the Imp Master attacking innocents, yet later before they reveal Billie goes off to fight said master behind their backs Piper has a talk with Agent Murphy where he shows a then glamored Piper pictures about innocents who died in the past month by the Imp Masters killing them, meaning the sisters just let innocents die through sheer neglect.
-Phoebe and Paige casting the "Mr Right" spell in Prince Charmed. So for Piper's birthday they decide to encourage her to not give up on love by opting a man as a sexual object that fulfills her desires? Because that's totally okay.
-Phoebe ditching her sisters in Scry Hard. While Piper and Leo are shrunk in the dollhouse by Wyatt, Zankou to take advantage of this by kicking out Phoebe and Paige how does Phoebe respond? She goes back to work on her advice column likes its no big deal and doesn't care about the fact Piper is presumed missing. So she's willing to let Piper and Leo die simply because finding them would inconvenience her column deadline.
-When a Comatose Sheridan wakes up the Charmed Ones only worry about exposure. So while Sheridan is in a coma, not only do the sisters feel no remorse for her, but they actively only worry about the fact her memory has returned. As implied through Phoebe's line "Sheridan's back, oh no! Basically the sisters were willing to let someone rot in a coma simply because she inconvenienced them!
-The Sister's Apathy toward the Elder's dying in One in a Blue Moon. When Piper informs Phoebe and Paige that Leo killed an elder none of them show any remorse over the fact that an Elder died, but show no concern for Leo's emotional instability. They also justify this by saying "we're not fans of the Elders" so it's okay to murder the elders because they don't like them?
Dishorable Mention(s)
Phoebe abusing her Premonitions in many episodes More to come if I think of any more
This is why Seasons 5-8 Charmed Ones are no longer witches, but the very warlocks they destroy who don't deserve to be Charmed.
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Post by Elle Em on Jun 24, 2019 14:56:51 GMT -5
Everything said here is valid, but the reminder about Phoebe being unwilling to attempt to vanquish Cole when he clearly wanted to die strikes me as particularly heinous. I really do believe that her hatred of him in season 5 was her putting her feelings towards herself onto him. Meaning she was so horrified and ashamed of herself for what she did, but she was unwilling to face that outside of her own head, especially not after Piper and everyone else made it clear they just wanted her back.
Keeping Cole alive just to prolong his suffering was sadistic. If he's such a threat, he should be vanquished, no matter if it feels like by doing it, he won or tricked them somehow. Phoebe truly was horrible with this.
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Post by gleamingroses on Jun 24, 2019 19:06:59 GMT -5
Everything said here is valid, but the reminder about Phoebe being unwilling to attempt to vanquish Cole when he clearly wanted to die strikes me as particularly heinous. I really do believe that her hatred of him in season 5 was her putting her feelings towards herself onto him. Meaning she was so horrified and ashamed of herself for what she did, but she was unwilling to face that outside of her own head, especially not after Piper and everyone else made it clear they just wanted her back. Keeping Cole alive just to prolong his suffering was sadistic. If he's such a threat, he should be vanquished, no matter if it feels like by doing it, he won or tricked them somehow. Phoebe truly was horrible with this. That's why Sam I Am continues to be the most abhorrent episode to me. It basically has the audience side with a person who is aware of Cole's suicide, refuses to vanquish him, despite persisting to do so, then claims "It has to be done on my terms". Personally I think it leads more toward the fact that Cole couldn't fulfill the image she wanted of him. She wanted this clear image of something she refused to look past. She wanted Cole to be this "perfect demon free boyfriend" but the moment something remotely bad happens outside of his control it's not good enough to warrant forgiveness simply because the image wasn't exactly as planned. It comes off as manipulative. Especially since two episodes from that "Sympathy for Demon" he outright had his powers stripped and she STILL wanted nothing to do with helping him! She even has the same thing happen to her when Barbas tricks her into killing Paige.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jun 25, 2019 2:34:34 GMT -5
Bingo. Phoebe wanted Mr big hot shot lawyer not Mr big hot shot lawyer who's half demon also. Subconsciously she couldn't accept the latter side of him upon knowing Belthazor's identity.
If Phoebe loved Cole completely she would've accepted that then whilst understanding he could turn evil again and try not to make that happen subsequent meaning when Cole became the Source and after vanquishing him Phoebe shouldn't have gone all hammer and tongs blaming the previous years events on him through knowing full well what type of person Cole could be.
Had the Charmed Ones minus Paige sometimes being smart season 5 then they wouldn't have thought most things happening before 'The Day Magic Died' was Cole related and figured out what that was through researching.
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Post by gleamingroses on Jun 25, 2019 5:51:43 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see someone here make their own set of Charmed videos about topics or even seasons. It'd be interesting to see. It was just a random thought that crossed my mind. Paige seemed to be the only sister who treated her guys well. It also helps they were the most interesting subplots a lot of the time. Even though Season 6 sucks Paige and Richard are the best part about the season because they were basically Phoebe/Cole, but done right and only condensed into a few episodes. I completely agree with your statement.
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Post by gzv969 on Jul 8, 2019 1:11:26 GMT -5
Bingo. Phoebe wanted Mr big hot shot lawyer not Mr big hot shot lawyer who's half demon also. Subconsciously she couldn't accept the latter side of him upon knowing Belthazor's identity. If Phoebe loved Cole completely she would've accepted that then whilst understanding he could turn evil again and try not to make that happen subsequent meaning when Cole became the Source and after vanquishing him Phoebe shouldn't have gone all hammer and tongs blaming the previous years events on him through knowing full well what type of person Cole could be. Had the Charmed Ones minus Paige sometimes being smart season 5 then they wouldn't have thought most things happening before 'The Day Magic Died' was Cole related and figured out what that was through researching. All of the sisters thinking that it was all Coles fault in season 5, was all because that was what phoebe kept telling them, as Cole was on her mind 24/7. Phoebe still loved Cole even though they kept fighting in season 5. Paigeâs true love spell in âA Witches Taleâ proved that and phoebe admitted it to Cole at the end of that episode. But In my opinion, just mine, I feel that after her time as the queen of the underworld and carrying his demon child, all that ended up corrupting her nature to some extent in different ways (Hence being referred to as being âCold Heartedâ at one point and piper trying to deny it). Deep down phoebe knew that she had liked being the queen of the underworld during that period of time and she was just fighting him off like one would fight off or resist drugs. And as a result of all this corruption in her, we ended up getting this new undesirable and selfish phoebe character that we got from season 5 onwards. So because of all this, phoebe ends up having this aggressive and angry response to seeing Cole in season 5 instead of what we would have expected. And then we have this huge lovers quarrel between them throughout season 5. A quarrel in a way only two evil love birds would have it. Phoebe wanting to vanquish Cole out of anger, maybe because she blamed him for making her taste the forbidden fruit and becoming evil. And even when Cole was willing to allow himself to be vanquished (Sam I Am) and phoebe realized he wasnât going to fight back, she wasnât willing to go thought with it as she wanted them both to fight and allow her to defeat him fair and square (talk about having an evil duel to the death đł). Though I doubt if she would really go though with an actual vanquish. Paige had to do that for her. Ever wondered if Cole kept to being his evil self and had no regrets about being the source and not apologized for who he was and still tried to win phoebe back, do you think that things may have turned out different? I remember how phoebe went on about Cole having all these new powers, it felt more like it was just about her being upset that Cole got all those new powers and she had none anymore. Remember how happy and excited she got in âwitch warsâ when she got the demonic fire throwing powers again for a brief time. It was like she became a kid that just found her favorite toy again. đ
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Post by Elle Em on Jul 8, 2019 7:28:20 GMT -5
Bingo. Phoebe wanted Mr big hot shot lawyer not Mr big hot shot lawyer who's half demon also. Subconsciously she couldn't accept the latter side of him upon knowing Belthazor's identity. If Phoebe loved Cole completely she would've accepted that then whilst understanding he could turn evil again and try not to make that happen subsequent meaning when Cole became the Source and after vanquishing him Phoebe shouldn't have gone all hammer and tongs blaming the previous years events on him through knowing full well what type of person Cole could be. Had the Charmed Ones minus Paige sometimes being smart season 5 then they wouldn't have thought most things happening before 'The Day Magic Died' was Cole related and figured out what that was through researching. All of the sisters thinking that it was all Coles fault in season 5, was all because that was what phoebe kept telling them, as Cole was on her mind 24/7. Phoebe still loved Cole even though they kept fighting in season 5. Paigeâs true love spell in âA Witches Taleâ proved that and phoebe admitted it to Cole at the end of that episode. But In my opinion, just mine, I feel that after her time as the queen of the underworld and carrying his demon child, all that ended up corrupting her nature to some extent in different ways (Hence being referred to as being âCold Heartedâ at one point and piper trying to deny it). Deep down phoebe knew that she had liked being the queen of the underworld during that period of time and she was just fighting him off like one would fight off or resist drugs. And as a result of all this corruption in her, we ended up getting this new undesirable and selfish phoebe character that we got from season 5 onwards. So because of all this, phoebe ends up having this aggressive and angry response to seeing Cole in season 5 instead of what we would have expected. And then we have this huge lovers quarrel between them throughout season 5. A quarrel in a way only two evil love birds would have it. Phoebe wanting to vanquish Cole out of anger, maybe because she blamed him for making her taste the forbidden fruit and becoming evil. And even when Cole was willing to allow himself to be vanquished (Sam I Am) and phoebe realized he wasnât going to fight back, she wasnât willing to go thought with it as she wanted them both to fight and allow her to defeat him fair and square (talk about having an evil duel to the death đł). Though I doubt if she would really go though with an actual vanquish. Paige had to do that for her. Ever wondered if Cole kept to being his evil self and had no regrets about being the source and not apologized for who he was and still tried to win phoebe back, do you think that things may have turned out different? I remember how phoebe went on about Cole having all these new powers, it felt more like it was just about her being upset that Cole got all those new powers and she had none anymore. Remember how happy and excited she got in âwitch warsâ when she got the demonic fire throwing powers again for a brief time. It was like she became a kid that just found her favorite toy again. đ It's hard to say if things would be different if Cole kept being evil. On the one hand, Phoebe made the decision to be evil alongside him in season 4 all on her own. On the other, she did everything she could to distance herself from him in season 5, I think out of shame. Ultimately, I think if either Cole or Phoebe were oriented towards evil, the other one would follow. Both were the worst thing for the other. Cole always wanted to be good for Phoebe's sake, and not for the idea of being good itself. And Phoebe would use any excuse to be selfish, especially if Cole being evil justified it for her.
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Post by gzv969 on Jul 8, 2019 20:14:13 GMT -5
Well said. Both were just bad for each other. Frankie and Lulu đ
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 6, 2020 1:42:42 GMT -5
For me, I'm going to mention two main ones. One being the episode 'Astral Monkey'. I don't think it was right to kill Dr. Williamson, they should have found another way somehow and I still believe if it had been Paige, Piper, Phoebe, they wouldn't have killed him. Another is Hyde School Reunion, the whole episode but also getting Rick killed by demons. I would have loved it if we had seen consequences - for both Astral Monkey and Hyde School Reunion.
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Post by gzv969 on Mar 7, 2020 5:31:41 GMT -5
Piper turning reporters into rats and letting them roam around the manor for hours. How traumatic that memory had to be for them. Especially since their memory was never erased of that moment
Phoebe and Paige borrowing Darylâs body against his will and he ends up getting badly beat up
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codebox
Familiar
Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on Mar 10, 2020 18:32:00 GMT -5
With me I will always take the worst deed of the sisters isn't just them casting a spell or using potions it's how they also act during the transpiring actions. And to me the worst showcases of these are individual deeds done by them and a couple as a collective.
With Piper I think single handedly her three most evil deeds have to be when she made the golden gate bridge vanish after saying the vanishing spell in Forget Me Not, when she turned reporters into rodents and the various times she's threatened to blow people up simply because they annoy her. With the vanishing spell what I hated the most was Piper's smug and "in your face" self entitled attitude about it. Her line of "Might wanna find an alternate route to work in the morning" while she smuggly moves toward the camera and and has a smug smile just made me REALLY hate Poor Ol Pitiful Piper.
The fact she is so self entitled about just making hundreds of people just vanish out of existence on national TV no less simply because of her irresponsible decision to not bind Wyatt's powers (which constantly proved to be a detrimental outcome) then her only conclusion to the Cleaners possibly getting rid of them as punishment was "They wouldn't dare" with such a self righteous tone in her voice.
With the rodents deal, she literally did this because they annoyed her. I LOATHED her conversations with Paige and Leo as a response. With Paige she goes "they were nosing around the garden" so that's a reason to turn people into rodents and just have them roam around aimlessly? Even worse her alternate solution to just "getting rid of them" was threat of blowing them up. And she says this to Paige in such a hateful tone. And with Leo her response is "because I can fix it magically I can do whatever I want as long as I reverse the damage" while also insulting Leo for being mortal.
I also hate it because it perfectly represents everything awful about Piper in Season 8. It's a personal beef of mine but I cannot stand how AWFUl she feels in this season, by her delivery and tone she sounds completely different, even more different than Season 5-7 Piper who was already different (or magnified) from Season 1-4 Piper, she just feels so cold and bitter in every scene she's in and always acts like everything around her is one giant inconvenience. It's so bad that in one episode one of her biggest challenges was just learning how to simile! (Hulkus Pulkus seems to be the exception)
As a side note I hated Piper's line in Once in a Blue Moon "Well if we get hungry we'll just have them throw us a whitelighter" as if killing a whitelighter was just joke to her! There's also when she tried to assault Billie and Christy with a potion not even letting Phoebe and Billie resolve conflict by talking.
I truly thing she's the big bad of Season 8, worse than Christy and the Triad for sure. As for Phoebe there are so many examples to choose from alone, but to me I think the ones that stick out the most have to be any time she uses her Advice Column as a crutch to skip out on helping them, even to the point dire circumstances are at stake in the process. Any moment she treats Cole poorly or her "adventures to find a man"
What sticks out to me bout any of these starting with the man journey is how she approached handling Dex Lawson. Don't get me wrong all of them were bad (except for Drake) but what Phoebe does to get with Dex strikes me as particularly henious. Firstly while still under disguise as her persona Julie she decides to flirt with him, only being concerned about something happening when she gets a premonition about an earthquake (which is only bad because it'll ruin her date) however when Billie casts a love spell that goes wrong (which was done because the sisters had passive aggressively scolded her) and marries both Phoebe and Dex, Phoebe (while initially scolding Billie) decides Billie's spell was the conclusion she needed simply because it played into her premonition outcome, this means she was willing to start a new life with a guy she's barely known and even marry him under a complete false identity under a complete lie.
Then when she reveals her "true self" to him she treats the reveal like a joke, then spends a later episode refusing to believe in her premonitions simply because they didn't benefit her!! Ignoring how she abused her fake identity just to forcefully engage with a guy under a complete lie because it played into her "baby daddy" destiny.
When it comes to work, there are many instances where Phoebe blowing off something for work becomes a recurring thing to the point it almost defined her. The worst examples of this have to be Saving Private Leo, A Call to Arms and Scry Hard. With Saving Private Leo she found taking on the ghost an inconvenience simply because the situation got inbetween her going to an office party with Cole, only for Phoebe to just completely ignore how it was about helping Leo and throwing Piper almost moving out in her face. Then only decides to come back after the situation escalated and Piper dying. With A Call to Arms, despite Piper and Leo becoming Hindu Gods that could end the world if they engaged romantically her response to this potentially world ending consequence was "I have to go to work" and she does this with a "whatever" expression while she uses the dismissive hand gesture.
Then there's Scry Hard, where despite the fact both Phoebe and Paige were evicted from their home and Piper was shrunk and kidnapped Phoebe's best response to this was to go back to work on her column, then responds to Paige with "And there are 50 jobs on the line if the paper does not come out" so her job was more important than her sister simply because finding them would inconvenience her column deadline.
With how Phoebe treats Cole, there's a lot of examples to use, but I think her actions at the end of Sam I Am were easily the worse. She caught onto the fact Cole was suicidal, setting up Paige and Leo being shot as a diversion just so they can help him suicide. My problem is Phoebe's response, she's literally denying him the right to have any sort of choice of his own, he can either live or die in the way SHE precieves on her own terms, not because she found the idea of his suicide a bad choice, but just so he couldn't have the choice to do so!
And honestly outside of creating Mr Right as a sex slave, framing a woman for assault or her treatment of the Sheridan situation Paige didn't do as many henious things as an individual and still the ONLY sister worth rooting for in Seasons 5-8. She was really only bad when as a collective (namely with Phoebe or Piper).
As a collective I find their worst actions to be
Phoebe and Piper actively convincing Paige to give up saving a man's life because it's affecting their own lives in Soul Survivor. I get Paige being reckless or not exactly thinking the consequences, but she was focusing on what should've mattered, helping innocents. Meanwhile we have Phoebe in a subplot turning Spencer Ricks into a pig with a potion, her facial reactions looked very vengeful and basically gets away with the fact she attacked a mortal with witchcraft, only the Piper and Phoebe just get angry at Paige because she forced them to help them save someone. So basically actively discouraging their sister was more important than the bigger picture.
Phoebe and Paige stealing Daryl's soul just to get to Valhalla. Why didn't Phoebe and Paige just think to steal a demon soul? It's not like Leo would've been in any real harm considering he literally had a sword and seemed to be fit with rage. But nope, they decide to steal Daryl's soul without his consent and force him to get attacked by Leo..
Phoebe and Paige also using magic to glamour Rick into looking like Chris in Hyde School Reunion. By far my least favorite ending in the show. It's like the show forgot they were witches so many times later seasons. Paige couldn't have just orbed the gun or Rick himself away somewhere? Phoebe couldn't have just subdued him while distracted with martial arts? Why did they think just having him melted by demons was a proper solution? Especially with how smug they were about basically setting up a coordinated attack.
All three of them spending the majority of Season 8 stating how the Leprechauns are unimportant, then only decide to care about them to use them as cannon fodder to scope out demons at Magic school, then have the gall to play victim when they get angry at them. To add to this I'd also put them faking their deaths just o manipulate everyone's mourning over them in the premiere.
In Once in a Blue Moon all of them act so mean spirited and apathetic when under PMS. Especially with how they laugh off Leo killing an Elder then Phoebe going "We're not big fans of the elders right now" and then there's also Piper's threat to "throw them a whitelighter" line.
However I think the one that tops them all would be when they all teamed up with the avatars to form their own utopia (which was formed completely by their desires for a normal life, no world peace, just so they could have normal lives) especially when the only reason they took off was by remembering their own losses. It wasn't because free will was taken it was only because they had to remember what they lost. This was the point where The Charmed Ones stopped being the heroines of the show, it's primarily why Charmegeddon is my least favorite episode.
I think I've stated enough of their worst actions. And Paige is still the less bad of the three (and my second favorite), but wow did the other two rope her in poorly at times and how often she could be out of character.
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 10, 2020 22:33:53 GMT -5
While I agree with people for the most part, I feel like people put the first 3 seasons on a pedestal and hang the sisters for the later seasons which I do not find fair at all. What about Prue and Phoebe casting a personal gain spell to save Piper? Or Phoebe casting a smart spell on herself to get a job? Or Phoebe (season 2 mind you) casting a spell to help Piper find her lost love. Or killing Dr. Williamson, someone they were supposed to protect. He got the consequences of Prue/Phoebe's spell as well as Leo healing Piper, so it was completely their fault. I'd mention Piper and Phoebe casting a spell to make guys fall in love with them and Prue casting the truth spell as well but I can forgive S1 for that because they were new to magic and they didn't know the rules as well as they did after Morality Bites. Just like how I forgive Paige for being an idiot in S4 in certain episodes when it came to the use of magic. Also, how Phoebe treated Cole? Really? People are playing that part after he put her through hell. Maybe her actions in 'Sam I Am' were cruel but people lash out after an abusive/toxic relationship. Were Phoebe's actions right? No. But calling them evil? That's rich honestly given how much he's hurt her. I'm one of those fans who thinks Cole should have stayed dead in S4 after LLTQ but I don't blame Phoebe for reacting the way she did to Cole in S5.
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codebox
Familiar
Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on Mar 11, 2020 5:17:10 GMT -5
People praise the earlier seasons for a reason. The show was just more enjoyable to watch and the Charmed Ones still did was the show's premise set them out to do. It all has to do with priority and focus. It went from the girls balancing their everyday normal lives with witchcraft, to just complaining about everything while witchcraft gets treated like a second fiddle option. It's also a lot of little changes too. Which we all have noted in other boards (Check what was missed from Earlier seasons to later) the shift from sister dynamics and magic to relationships didn't do the show favors either.
Yes the sisters have always casted spells or did something with huge consequences for personal gain. However there's a difference between how they use them in earlier seasons compared to later. Especially when later they do them much more recklessly and shamelessly. With Prue and Phoebe casting a personal gain spell to save Piper, I assume you're referring to the episode Awakened from Season 2? Here's the thing, while Prue and Phoebe made a choice to try and play god, their intentions were in the right spot, they didn't want Piper to die from a diease. And it shows the consequences of their decision as a result. There's also a payoff, when the disease goes around and spreads to other people Piper willing takes the disease back to save people. Compare this to a later season episode like Forget Me Not for instance, where Piper is constantly told to bind Wyatt's powers (yes she gives the whole "It's who he is destiny reason") but primarily why it doesn't work is because it goes against her character motivations, constantly wanting Magic to a mute just to have a normal life.
In this case because she refused to bind his powers he summons a dragon that rampages across San Francisco, to the point people were even implied to be killed and it causes destruction to the city. And the girls solve this by Piper making the Golden Gate Bridge disappear meaning she made innocent people vanqish out of thin air. Even worse at the end of the episode Paige disguises herself as a woman to magically attack a guy with a flower pot, meaning she framed a woman for assault. It's even confirmed later the Cleaners only hid the exposure risk, but not the events falling out from it. This makes her decision reckless and irresponsible. Piper may have wanted to "save Wyatt" but it's her fault for not binding his powers leading to these events taken off.
Or a better example Phoebe and Paige glamouring a former classmate/criminal of Phoebe's into looking like Chris just so her could get melted by demons. This is way more heinous than Prue and Phoebe's doing because Paige and Phoebe outright plan a coordinated attack, when they could've resulted in other solutions to solve the problem. Why have him killed when Paige could've just orbed the gun away? It also goes against the lesson Phoebe preached in the episode "Morality Bites" where their job is to save the innocent, not punish the guilty. How is that any better? With Prue and Phoebe, while their spell had consequences had good intentions behind it and when it involved other people they decided to take back their decision.
With Phoebe casting the Smart Spell, yes this would count as again, personal gain. But her doing it for a job was so she could help pay for Prue's car. Not just so she could cheat at a job, in a Season 4 episode Phoebe uses magic just to see if she should marry Cole or not, which had no intention behind it other than being completely about herself. Or when she uses her premonitions in Seasons 6-8 just to force on the fact she wants a baby daddy.
With them killing Dr Williamson, this was not intentional on their part, it was kind of a now way out situation. The whole plot of the episode was Piper wanting to save him from himself, but he became so corrupted that he was killing people, thinking he did the right thing. They even felt bad for their actions and it ended with Piper mourning his death. Piper even mentions in the episode how she felt guilty about it, the whole episode was them trying to save him from himself. With Prue casting the truth spell, she got rightfully chewed out for this in The Power of Two, where upon going near the book, Phoebe and the Book itself alert Prue to the truth spell she casted on Andy (the Books way of showing her personal gain spell) which leads to Andy rightfully chewing her out by making her final decision on him being unaccepting of her being a which based on one minute.
Again it all boils down to intent and consequences. Yes the girls have always done personal gain spells or things that have ended with poor results, the difference is in earlier seasons there were actual consequences for their actions (most of the time) and they took consideration in trying to fix something, or they just had no harmful intentions (even if impulsive about doing it) in later seasons they would shamelessly use personal gain without care or sometimes even mallicious intent. Like Piper turning those reporters into rodents or Phoebe abusing her premonitions just so she could get a man. Or Phoebe and Paige conjuring a spell to cast a sex object.
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 11, 2020 5:33:09 GMT -5
To be honest, no one's ever explained in this way - I've mostly just heard whining about how later seasons Charmed Ones do spells for personal gain whilst completely ignoring that they've always done that. S6 is hands-down the worst season anyway and I hate a lot of stuff in it. As for Phoebe wanting to use magic to find out whether she should marry Cole, I'm sorry but how is that different from Phoebe casting a spell to lead Piper to her love (between Dan and Leo). Granted, it didn't work in the same way but the intent behind those two things was the same...
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