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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 23:21:51 GMT -5
Season 5, when the charmed mythology completely changed to become a tv show that is like a completely different show, which just uses the names of the original series from season 1 to 4. I hated how the show changed its mythology, and started introducing magical creatures and beings, having the charmed ones turn into something every other week, or use greek mythology. I'm not a fan when a tv show goes so against its own canon. Magical beings like they were used in Once Upon a Time was the best, that they were mysterious and you cant see them. When the Elders were an unseen force known as them or they. When The Source was mysterious, and he was only seen in the underworld as a hooded red figure with wings, not the demon of the week half faced source in season 4. The biggest issue for me was how much they changed the rules and mythology, and when the sisters started to care less about innocents and more about family life. Poping out children didn't help, and I hate the twice blessed child. But when it jumped the shark, it started in season 3, when the first signs of changes occurred with Phoebe putting Cole above her sisters, Kern rewriting the founders/them into elders and having Piper and Leo marry so quickly, but it was so out in your face by the time season 5 occurs. Yeah, as bad as Season 5 was, you could see the show start to change for the worst as early as Season 3. "Sleuthing With the Enemy" pretty much marked the beginning of PhoeMe, and you started to see a shift away from saving innocents and more towards demon hunting. Season 4 pretty much marked the birth of whiny, bitchy Piper, aka. Miss Whinealot, and the Dark Phoebe storyline was nothing more than Phoebe declining even further into PhoeMe. However, unlike Season 5, Seasons 3 and 4 still had plenty of good in them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 9:12:57 GMT -5
Season 5, when the charmed mythology completely changed to become a tv show that is like a completely different show, which just uses the names of the original series from season 1 to 4. I hated how the show changed its mythology, and started introducing magical creatures and beings, having the charmed ones turn into something every other week, or use greek mythology. I'm not a fan when a tv show goes so against its own canon. Magical beings like they were used in Once Upon a Time was the best, that they were mysterious and you cant see them. When the Elders were an unseen force known as them or they. When The Source was mysterious, and he was only seen in the underworld as a hooded red figure with wings, not the demon of the week half faced source in season 4. The biggest issue for me was how much they changed the rules and mythology, and when the sisters started to care less about innocents and more about family life. Poping out children didn't help, and I hate the twice blessed child. But when it jumped the shark, it started in season 3, when the first signs of changes occurred with Phoebe putting Cole above her sisters, Kern rewriting the founders/them into elders and having Piper and Leo marry so quickly, but it was so out in your face by the time season 5 occurs. Yeah, as bad as Season 5 was, you could see the show start to change for the worst as early as Season 3. "Sleuthing With the Enemy" pretty much marked the beginning of PhoeMe, and you started to see a shift away from saving innocents and more towards demon hunting. Season 4 pretty much marked the birth of whiny, bitchy Piper, aka. Miss Whinealot, and the Dark Phoebe storyline was nothing more than Phoebe declining even further into PhoeMe. However, unlike Season 5, Seasons 3 and 4 still had plenty of good in them. Nicely Said. And I only just realized that it actually started in Season 3. Although I love Cole and Julian McMahon. I love the contrast between Piper and Leo's relationships and Phoebe and Cole's. True Love vs. Blind Love. I guess its disappointments like these in life which remind you to work hard on a project you love because you only really have one shot at it!
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 12, 2015 10:42:17 GMT -5
Season 5, when the charmed mythology completely changed to become a tv show that is like a completely different show, which just uses the names of the original series from season 1 to 4. I hated how the show changed its mythology, and started introducing magical creatures and beings, having the charmed ones turn into something every other week, or use greek mythology. I'm not a fan when a tv show goes so against its own canon. Magical beings like they were used in Once Upon a Time was the best, that they were mysterious and you cant see them. When the Elders were an unseen force known as them or they. When The Source was mysterious, and he was only seen in the underworld as a hooded red figure with wings, not the demon of the week half faced source in season 4. The biggest issue for me was how much they changed the rules and mythology, and when the sisters started to care less about innocents and more about family life. Poping out children didn't help, and I hate the twice blessed child. But when it jumped the shark, it started in season 3, when the first signs of changes occurred with Phoebe putting Cole above her sisters, Kern rewriting the founders/them into elders and having Piper and Leo marry so quickly, but it was so out in your face by the time season 5 occurs. Yeah, as bad as Season 5 was, you could see the show start to change for the worst as early as Season 3. "Sleuthing With the Enemy" pretty much marked the beginning of PhoeMe, and you started to see a shift away from saving innocents and more towards demon hunting. Season 4 pretty much marked the birth of whiny, bitchy Piper, aka. Miss Whinealot, and the Dark Phoebe storyline was nothing more than Phoebe declining even further into PhoeMe. However, unlike Season 5, Seasons 3 and 4 still had plenty of good in them. I'm glad you guys agree with me, even using my terms for the various characters. Mot of the time I'm in the minority, so in this case, it's nice not to be. But I don't count it as *the* jump the shark moment, because even after this, there were innocents to be found and saved, all the way until the birth of the Twice-Blessed Brat, when saving him became the focus of their life. That's when the show permanently jumped the shark as badly as Fonz did when he jumped over a white shark on skis. According to Wikipedia: Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_sharkBefore that moment, Season Five had a lot of good in it, if you ignored PhoeME and her past slampiece (Cole) and her current one (Jason). After it, when up to that point we were certain the baby would be Prudence Melinda and instead there he was with his p*nis (and thingy's better than that???) in full view, well, that was the shock moment of the series and the show was never the same after that. It could've and should've gotten better - Chris' story, the Avatars, Zankou, even Billie and Christy could've been great stories and have been in fanfics. But taking what we're given, none of them are quality, and I'll bet even Chris-fans, Phoebe-fans and Piper-fans would have problems disagreeing with them - they love the possibilities, not what was. The fantasy creatures were annoying, but they weren't shocking, so they're not a jump the shark moment. Showing that little thing between "Prudence's" legs was.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 13:30:52 GMT -5
Nicely Said. And I only just realized that it actually started in Season 3. Although I love Cole and Julian McMahon. I love the contrast between Piper and Leo's relationships and Phoebe and Cole's. True Love vs. Blind Love. I guess its disappointments like these in life which remind you to work hard on a project you love because you only really have one shot at it! Yeah, looking back, I don't think Phoebe ever truly loved Cole. What she loved was her fantasy image of him, not the half-demon he actually was. In the end, I think Cole's better off without her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 14:13:14 GMT -5
And he was willing to help Phoebe find love again. Despite how she treated him in S5, he forgave her.
More than I could say for PhoebME.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 12, 2015 14:16:12 GMT -5
Nicely Said. And I only just realized that it actually started in Season 3. Although I love Cole and Julian McMahon. I love the contrast between Piper and Leo's relationships and Phoebe and Cole's. True Love vs. Blind Love. I guess its disappointments like these in life which remind you to work hard on a project you love because you only really have one shot at it! Yeah, looking back, I don't think Phoebe ever truly loved Cole. What she loved was her fantasy image of him, not the half-demon he actually was. In the end, I think Cole's better off without her. That's what I've been saying since Season Five. I'm glad someone else thinks so.
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Post by Sadrick on Jul 12, 2015 15:26:35 GMT -5
The series was already making a transition towards what I believe is a mixed bag of concepts as early back as S2-S3. More and more you saw just garden variety demons throwing energy balls instead of beings with distinct appearances, titles, and powers that commanded attention like Cali, Javna, Tempus, Cryto. In exchange for original attention to detail with the monster-of-the-week format, S3 had the first overarching storyline of the series. I can appreciate the direction in which the writers were trying to take the series by expanding upon the Charmed universe, but it inadvertently resulted in the Brad dominated seasons of later years - that includes all the leprechauns, fairies, magic school, sex, twice-blessed brats, and half-baked ideas you could ask for. Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate Cole's character for the first two years he existed before being replaced by the mad dog who couldn't be put out of his misery by a spiteful woman who would rather let an unpredictable hydrogen bomb continue to run amok instead of defusing it because it's "not on her terms". Why should that be relevant when battling the supernatural anyway? No one besides you cares if it was on their terms that they chose to die or if you forced it upon them. The immediate threat has been neturalised, isn't that what's important? She's just lucky that potion failed to kill him in "Sam I Am", and that he was invincible by that point, otherwise I would have argued that the blood of that driver killed in "The Importance of Being Phoebe" was on her hands.
Anyway, I'll just vote for Season 5 being the turning point. I miss Shannen and Prue very much, but at least S4 was bearable and remained truer to the original premise more than later seasons did.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 18:54:25 GMT -5
The series was already making a transition towards what I believe is a mixed bag of concepts as early back as S2-S3. More and more you saw just garden variety demons throwing energy balls instead of beings with distinct appearances, titles, and powers that commanded attention like Cali, Javna, Tempus, Cryto. In exchange for original attention to detail with the monster-of-the-week format, S3 had the first overarching storyline of the series. I can appreciate the direction in which the writers were trying to take the series by expanding upon the Charmed universe, but it inadvertently resulted in the Brad dominated seasons of later years - that includes all the leprechauns, fairies, magic school, sex, twice-blessed brats, and half-baked ideas you could ask for. I think what the later seasons proved was the Charmed's writers were horrible at writing story arcs. Whenever Charmed did a story arc, it usually dragged on, contradicted past episodes, botched characterization, and ended badly. Serial storytelling is supposed to be stronger and more engaging than episodic storytelling, but not in the hands of the Charmed writers. Yes, the first 2 Seasons were very "Monster of the Week," but that's what the show's writers clearly did best, and it worked well. Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate Cole's character for the first two years he existed before being replaced by the mad dog who couldn't be put out of his misery by a spiteful woman who would rather let an unpredictable hydrogen bomb continue to run amok instead of defusing it because it's "not on her terms". Why should that be relevant when battling the supernatural anyway? No one besides you cares if it was on their terms that they chose to die or if you forced it upon them. The immediate threat has been neturalised, isn't that what's important? She's just lucky that potion failed to kill him in "Sam I Am", and that he was invincible by that point, otherwise I would have argued that the blood of that driver killed in "The Importance of Being Phoebe" was on her hands. Agree 100%. I actually love Cole and what he brought to the show, but his character was handled very badly. He should've stayed Belthazor and away from Phoebe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 0:26:47 GMT -5
The series was already making a transition towards what I believe is a mixed bag of concepts as early back as S2-S3. More and more you saw just garden variety demons throwing energy balls instead of beings with distinct appearances, titles, and powers that commanded attention like Cali, Javna, Tempus, Cryto. In exchange for original attention to detail with the monster-of-the-week format, S3 had the first overarching storyline of the series. I can appreciate the direction in which the writers were trying to take the series by expanding upon the Charmed universe, but it inadvertently resulted in the Brad dominated seasons of later years - that includes all the leprechauns, fairies, magic school, sex, twice-blessed brats, and half-baked ideas you could ask for. I think what the later seasons proved was the Charmed's writers were horrible at writing story arcs. Whenever Charmed did a story arc, it usually dragged on, contradicted past episodes, botched characterization, and ended badly. Serial storytelling is supposed to be stronger and more engaging than episodic storytelling, but not in the hands of the Charmed writers. Yes, the first 2 Seasons were very "Monster of the Week," but that's what the show's writers clearly did best, and it worked well. Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate Cole's character for the first two years he existed before being replaced by the mad dog who couldn't be put out of his misery by a spiteful woman who would rather let an unpredictable hydrogen bomb continue to run amok instead of defusing it because it's "not on her terms". Why should that be relevant when battling the supernatural anyway? No one besides you cares if it was on their terms that they chose to die or if you forced it upon them. The immediate threat has been neturalised, isn't that what's important? She's just lucky that potion failed to kill him in "Sam I Am", and that he was invincible by that point, otherwise I would have argued that the blood of that driver killed in "The Importance of Being Phoebe" was on her hands. Agree 100%. I actually love Cole and what he brought to the show, but his character was handled very badly. He should've stayed Belthazor and away from Phoebe. With what we have talked about, I feel like we are getting to the exact point when Charmed Jumped the Shark. Does it come down to two things 1) The mythology changing and moving away from its core Witchcraft and Wicca focus - even going as far back as the introduction of Whiteligher's 2) The bad character development of all main characters including Julian McMahon's, Dorian Gregory, Drew Fuller and Kaley Cucco's over the entire run of the series Both of which points were integral in generating the groundbreaking success in the Pilot Episode. I think the struggles for both the writers and Kern which where much more transparent in the later seasons was Constance M. Burge's weakening stronghold over the show's direction with her voice becoming more and more weakened until she eventually cuts all ties with the studio. Basically, without being sexiest (I am a dude), the show sucked because this was Connie's baby which was taken over my a Man's interpretation of what witchcraft, sisterhood and being a strong woman meant in the 90s and 2000s. He simply could not replicate her particular brand of magic. Does anyone know when she stopped consulting with the show, like which episodes she had final influences over? Season Four was it for her wasn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 11:43:27 GMT -5
With what we have talked about, I feel like we are getting to the exact point when Charmed Jumped the Shark. Does it come down to two things 1) The mythology changing and moving away from its core Witchcraft and Wicca focus - even going as far back as the introduction of Whiteligher's 2) The bad character development of all main characters including Julian McMahon's, Dorian Gregory, Drew Fuller and Kaley Cucco's over the entire run of the series Both of which points were integral in generating the groundbreaking success in the Pilot Episode. I think the struggles for both the writers and Kern which where much more transparent in the later seasons was Constance M. Burge's weakening stronghold over the show's direction with her voice becoming more and more weakened until she eventually cuts all ties with the studio. Basically, without being sexiest (I am a dude), the show sucked because this was Connie's baby which was taken over my a Man's interpretation of what witchcraft, sisterhood and being a strong woman meant in the 90s and 2000s. He simply could not replicate her particular brand of magic. Does anyone know when she stopped consulting with the show, like which episodes she had final influences over? Season Four was it for her wasn't it? Yeah, Season 4 was Connie's last season as a consultant. Season 2 was her last as showrunner. No, you're not being "sexist," at all. In fact, you have a valid point. Charmed was a part of the late 90s wave of "Girl Power" in pop culture, along with Buffy, Xena, Sabrina, the Spice Girls, the Craft, Clueless, Sailor Moon, the Powerpuff Girls, and so on. It was all about strong, independent young women doing their own thing in a new era. Not only did they not need to be saved by the man, but they were usually the ones doing the saving. You could see these role reversals in Charmed's first season, where the traditionally female roles of tragically fridged love interest and peace-loving healer were filled by male characters (Andy and Leo, respectively), instead. Meanwhile, the sisters, themselves, played the more traditionally male role of being the strong heroes saving the day and winning the hot love interest. However, a shift in pop culture happened sometime around 9/11. We were inundated with imagery of big strong policemen and firemen saving weak, helpless women from the Twin Towers, and there was a new wave of nostalgia for the Big Damn (Male) Heroes of yore. Suddenly, the hot new thing on the WB's lineup was not the girl power of Charmed but instead the male-centric Smallville (which beat Charmed, itself, as the WB's highest-rated premiere ever), and the big thing at the movies were male-centered epics and coming of age tales like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and Spider-Man. And, it was around that this time that Charmed began its shift away from Girl Power and more towards a male-centric vision for the show. Piper's daughter from "Morality Bites" was no more and was now a Twice-Blessed son who was stronger than the Power of Three, and the story of the sisters started to take a backseat to that of their male costars, be they Cole, Chris, or Leo. And, the sisters, themselves, became less concerned with saving the day and more concerned with marriage and babies, something Kern did his darnedest to make sure all three had by the end of the final season. And, the number of fanservicey, objectifying outfits and costumes only increased exponentially as time went on.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 16, 2015 9:43:23 GMT -5
I thought Connie was out after Season Three and then wasn't even a consultant for all of that. I know I've read that she had *ideas* for Season Four, but how many of them were or weren't part of Season Four, we don't know.
ETA: And I'm not just saying that because I don't like most of Season Four (introducing Paige is the only part I like) - if I was doing it that way I'd say she didn't have anything to do with Season Three, but I know she did at least for that. Although how much Kern actually consulted with her, we'll never know for sure. Besides, having read the episodes that she wrote, I'm not really all that impressed with her. I actually like some of the early episodes that Brad Kern wrote more, even though I don't like any of his episodes past S2 - I've learned I like them best as a true team rather than separate.
That's also why I don't think she had much to do with Season Four - per IMDb, only one of the regular writers from the first two seasons - David Cerone (who only wrote three episodes in Season Two and two episodes in Season Six) - wrote anything for S4-8. TheWB was obviously starting fresh with S4 and wouldn't have kept Connie around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 13:12:38 GMT -5
I thought Connie was out after Season Three and then wasn't even a consultant for all of that. I know I've read that she had *ideas* for Season Four, but how many of them were or weren't part of Season Four, we don't know. ETA: And I'm not just saying that because I don't like most of Season Four (introducing Paige is the only part I like) - if I was doing it that way I'd say she didn't have anything to do with Season Three, but I know she did at least for that. Although how much Kern actually consulted with her, we'll never know for sure. Besides, having read the episodes that she wrote, I'm not really all that impressed with her. I actually like some of the early episodes that Brad Kern wrote more, even though I don't like any of his episodes past S2 - I've learned I like them best as a true team rather than separate. That's also why I don't think she had much to do with Season Four - per IMDb, only one of the regular writers from the first two seasons - David Cerone (who only wrote three episodes in Season Two and two episodes in Season Six) - wrote anything for S4-8. TheWB was obviously starting fresh with S4 and wouldn't have kept Connie around. That actually makes sense. The characterizations of Piper and Phoebe in Season 4 far more resemble their Season 5-8 characterizations (aka. Miss Whinealot and PhoeMe) than their Season 1-2 characterizations, and it was the first season to fully focus on killing demons rather than protecting the innocent (Season 3 was more in-between S1-2 and S4 in that regard). And, I highly doubt Connie had anything to do with the Dark Phoebe storyline (which actually had been in planning before Shannen was fired, but even by the end of Season 3, I think the show had already become 100% Kern).
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 16, 2015 14:06:52 GMT -5
I thought Connie was out after Season Three and then wasn't even a consultant for all of that. I know I've read that she had *ideas* for Season Four, but how many of them were or weren't part of Season Four, we don't know. ETA: And I'm not just saying that because I don't like most of Season Four (introducing Paige is the only part I like) - if I was doing it that way I'd say she didn't have anything to do with Season Three, but I know she did at least for that. Although how much Kern actually consulted with her, we'll never know for sure. Besides, having read the episodes that she wrote, I'm not really all that impressed with her. I actually like some of the early episodes that Brad Kern wrote more, even though I don't like any of his episodes past S2 - I've learned I like them best as a true team rather than separate. That's also why I don't think she had much to do with Season Four - per IMDb, only one of the regular writers from the first two seasons - David Cerone (who only wrote three episodes in Season Two and two episodes in Season Six) - wrote anything for S4-8. TheWB was obviously starting fresh with S4 and wouldn't have kept Connie around. That actually makes sense. The characterizations of Piper and Phoebe in Season 4 far more resemble their Season 5-8 characterizations (aka. Miss Whinealot and PhoeMe) than their Season 1-2 characterizations, and it was the first season to fully focus on killing demons rather than protecting the innocent (Season 3 was more in-between S1-2 and S4 in that regard). And, I highly doubt Connie had anything to do with the Dark Phoebe storyline (which actually had been in planning before Shannen was fired, but even by the end of Season 3, I think the show had already become 100% Kern). Well, 50% TheWB, 50% Kern... But otherwise, I totally agree.
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Post by Sadrick on Jul 16, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5
It's a shame because Brad does have the potential to write quality episodes. "All Hell Breaks Loose" is the best example of that, and for many it's become eternalised as one of the best of the entire series. Part of that stems from the fact that it was Prue's last actual appearance on the show, yes, but I think it stands out on its own for being one of the best acted (most notably Shannen's performance in the moment Piper was shot to the scene at the hospital right before time was reversed) and most intense plotline seen in Charmed. It began with a running start as the sisters were attempting to protect an innocent from the Source's personal assassin and it culminated in a tragic cliffhanger ending with Shax leaving two of the sisters' fates unknown and the third trapped down in the underworld with Leo and Cole. The Source made his first real appearance on the show, and then for whatever reason the writers decided to turn him into this fretful arrogant little half-faced man in a generic black cloak at the beginning of S4 in place of this towering hellish knight robed in crimson. But I'm digressing here.
Why couldn't Brad write more quality episodes like AHBL? Was the WB Network responsible? I heard that it was because of them tugging at the creative strings that later seasons saw the sisters being more interested in their personal love-affairs and promiscuity than continuing the mission of protecting the innocent.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jul 18, 2015 12:55:59 GMT -5
The way in which Season 4 ended and Season 5 altogether is when the series jumped the shark for me. Hell, I stopped watching the show on a regular basis in early Season 5. The fairy tale episode that featured Sean Patrick Flannery seemed like the first real sign of how bad the show had become was a sign for me.
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Post by West on Aug 7, 2015 23:13:38 GMT -5
I thought Connie was out after Season Three and then wasn't even a consultant for all of that. I know I've read that she had *ideas* for Season Four, but how many of them were or weren't part of Season Four, we don't know. ETA: And I'm not just saying that because I don't like most of Season Four (introducing Paige is the only part I like) - if I was doing it that way I'd say she didn't have anything to do with Season Three, but I know she did at least for that. Although how much Kern actually consulted with her, we'll never know for sure. Besides, having read the episodes that she wrote, I'm not really all that impressed with her. I actually like some of the early episodes that Brad Kern wrote more, even though I don't like any of his episodes past S2 - I've learned I like them best as a true team rather than separate. That's also why I don't think she had much to do with Season Four - per IMDb, only one of the regular writers from the first two seasons - David Cerone (who only wrote three episodes in Season Two and two episodes in Season Six) - wrote anything for S4-8. TheWB was obviously starting fresh with S4 and wouldn't have kept Connie around. Agreed. It proves, Kern can write good stuff, just dont put him in charge of a show. Honestly hes better off as just a writer, with someone else being his leader, or co-leading with someone else. Its interesting that Shannen was out once Connie left, or shortly after. However what could of been good, was even if connie still left, keeping some of the original writing team, and not ditching them. I dont like shows that completely dump all writers but one, keeping some of the old team allows things to be consistent. Its no wonder the show had so many plot holes, if half the writers writing season 6-8 were not even apart of the early days. But WB is partly to blame with there demands. Interesting how much they wanted to change Charmed, yet as a Buffy/Angel fan, they never removed half the writing crew, and half were with the show for whole run.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2015 0:18:05 GMT -5
Connie was still there in Seasons Three and Four. However, she was a "Creative Consultant". As I said, that's a nice way to say: "You can make suggestions that we MAY listen to, but you no longer have any day-to-day running of the show itself."
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Aug 8, 2015 3:41:29 GMT -5
Which's a shame really seeing how she created the show and everything.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2015 5:23:44 GMT -5
Yeah, imagine losing control of your own show to Brad Kern.
Must have been the WB's doing. Maybe Connie would not bow to their demands.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Aug 8, 2015 8:44:59 GMT -5
I completely agree. If they had thought about a storyline BEFORE a new season starts, things could have been different. I do that with my stories but sometimes it's not easy but you have to have a direction where you want to go to. With a character or a season.
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