Granny Charmed
Whitelighter
S1 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Posts: 3,225
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Post by Granny Charmed on Aug 1, 2017 8:39:51 GMT -5
Most of you are forgetting what "jump the shark" means. It's not a whole season (Season 5 shouldn't even be a choice) or a storyline, it's one specific shocking moment that changes the whole series into being about something it wasn't - like Fonzie water-skiing and suddenly jumping a shark turning "Happy Days" from a realistic family comedy into a very unrealistic show that was just all about Fonz and totally ignoring the family that the series was all about - the Cunninghams - which is how the whole idea got started. And for me it still has to be seeing "Prudence Melinda" with something between "her" legs...or Phoebe and Cole seeing Paige orb...or Cole's eyes turning black. None of the other choices truly fit - not even Piper's death or Prue's death in 'All Hell Breaks Loose' since we'd seen them die before and then come back, so that wasn't that much different than what we'd seen before. Had Paige not been part of the series and Season Four about Piper and Phoebe trying to continue without Prue, it still would've been Charmed. With Paige, it wasn't as the sisterhood that was so important to the show no longer meant anything, just like Cole's eyes turning black turned their destiny from protecting innocents into vanquishing the Source and Prudence Melinda turning into Wyatt made a show all about girl power suddenly all about women being useless without their men, all why I'll continue to insist that S4-8 is the alternate-universe spin-off "Witchlighter" which has next-to-nothing to do with "Charmed". *Very* good point dear. Oh, how I hated Happy Days after that point. But back to Charmed, and I couldn't agree more with you on this. For me it would be Phoebe lying to her sisters about Cole, Phoebe and Cole seeing Paige orb or even Prudence Melinda turning into Wyatt.
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Post by val1993 on Aug 3, 2017 2:43:18 GMT -5
Another thing that really bugged me was... Alyssa's acting. I don't know why, but it just felt so cheesy right from the start of S4. Her pathetic portrayal of Paige in 'Enter the Demon' left so much to be desired, then Phoebe transformed into a desperate housewitch was just a big unbeliavable meh to me, not to mention a really lousy crying over Prue in 'Charmed Again' and her inability to properly play a middle sister. Now I'm starting to wonder if that's why Shannen had disputes with her: it was stated numerous times she can't stand someone who doesn't really care about his/her job which is probably what Alyssa had become by the start of Season 4. I think it's because Alyssa is a comedic actress which worked really well when she was the fun baby sister. But the more emotional she got, fans lost respect for her. I don't think that Alyssa was a good cryer or dramtic actress apart from LLtQueen. Alyssa played fun and evil better than all 4 actresses that was her talent and the writters should have leveraged off that in Season 4 a bit more while Piper and Cole remained the Hard characters. Well, here's the thing: Alyssa can actuallly play dramatic scenes very well. I mean, her crying over Prue in 'Be Careful What You Wish For' was very real and beliavable, and then Phoebe screaming because of her severe pain in 'The Good, The Bad and The Cursed' was very well-portrayed! Coincidentally, both episodes were directed by Shannen And yes, Alyssa played evil wonderfully, to the point when you might actually have been scared of her. But then again, we have 'All Hell Breaks Loose' where Phoebe is so emotionless despite the fact that her sister died... Such a wasted potential, really.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 3, 2017 2:51:42 GMT -5
Well, I wonder if Shannen was the only one who could make Alyssa truly care enough to do it that well. That was Shannen's problem with Alyssa in Season Three, which might be why she had a hard time getting her to show emotions during 'All Hell Breaks Loose'.
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craig
Familiar
Posts: 255
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Post by craig on Aug 3, 2017 3:08:07 GMT -5
Well, I wonder if Shannen was the only one who could make Alyssa truly care enough to do it that well. That was Shannen's problem with Alyssa in Season Three, which might be why she had a hard time getting her to show emotions during 'All Hell Breaks Loose'. She did a great job with Alyssa in the Good, the Bad and the Cursed directing her. But, I can see why Shannen and Alyssa had some problems on set during season 3.
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craig
Familiar
Posts: 255
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Post by craig on Aug 3, 2017 3:13:16 GMT -5
Most of you are forgetting what "jump the shark" means. It's not a whole season (Season 5 shouldn't even be a choice) or a storyline, it's one specific shocking moment that changes the whole series into being about something it wasn't - like Fonzie water-skiing and suddenly jumping a shark turning "Happy Days" from a realistic family comedy into a very unrealistic show that was just all about Fonz and totally ignoring the family that the series was all about - the Cunninghams - which is how the whole idea got started. And for me it still has to be seeing "Prudence Melinda" with something between "her" legs...or Phoebe and Cole seeing Paige orb...or Cole's eyes turning black. None of the other choices truly fit - not even Piper's death or Prue's death in 'All Hell Breaks Loose' since we'd seen them die before and then come back, so that wasn't that much different than what we'd seen before. Had Paige not been part of the series and Season Four be about Piper and Phoebe trying to continue without Prue, it still would've been Charmed. With Paige, it wasn't as the sisterhood that was so important to the show no longer meant anything, just like Cole's eyes turning black turned their destiny from protecting innocents into vanquishing the Source and Prudence Melinda turning into Wyatt made a show all about girl power suddenly all about women being useless without their men, all why I'll continue to insist that S4-8 is the alternate-universe spin-off "Witchlighter" which has next-to-nothing to do with "Charmed". Cole's eyes turning black therefore is my Jump the Shark moment Es. I didn't know it was meant to be an actual moment, and not an storyline or season. I wasn't even alive to know the true concept of jumping the shark with Happy Days. I did know about Happy Days, but not that it is one specific moment. I keep seeing people using the term as a way to say a whole season jumped the shark. Thanks for letting us know.
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Post by val1993 on Aug 3, 2017 3:24:36 GMT -5
Well, I wonder if Shannen was the only one who could make Alyssa truly care enough to do it that well. That was Shannen's problem with Alyssa in Season Three, which might be why she had a hard time getting her to show emotions during 'All Hell Breaks Loose'. She did a great job with Alyssa in the Good, the Bad and the Cursed directing her. But, I can see why Shannen and Alyssa had some problems on set during season 3. I think, the feud was about them being two professionals who had a different point of view on what being a good actress actually means. Alyssa was literally growing up as both a woman and an actress in front of the whole USA while doing Who's The Boss, and that is certainly a decent experience. But in order to play a cute young girl on a sitcom, the only thing you have to possess is your cute appearance. Shannen was doing 90210 for only 4 years, and although her character was pretty annoying (I just don't like TV shows about teenagers), she was involved in a lot of dramatic scenes and Shannen always does drama to a T. It's only natural that they could get into fights over their views on acting.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 3, 2017 4:30:10 GMT -5
She did a great job with Alyssa in the Good, the Bad and the Cursed directing her. But, I can see why Shannen and Alyssa had some problems on set during season 3. I think, the feud was about them being two professionals who had a different point of view on what being a good actress actually means. Alyssa was literally growing up as both a woman and an actress in front of the whole USA while doing Who's The Boss, and that is certainly a decent experience. But in order to play a cute young girl on a sitcom, the only thing you have to possess is your cute appearance. Shannen was doing 90210 for only 4 years, and although her character was pretty annoying (I just don't like TV shows about teenagers), she was involved in a lot of dramatic scenes and Shannen always does drama to a T. It's only natural that they could get into fights over their views on acting. You are so right about all of that. But both were/are truly professionals. I've always believed that they could set their differences aside once the director said "Action". There was no need to fire Shannen *or* Alyssa as most fans thought was going to happen. Perhaps Alyssa would've left if Shannen didn't so they fired Shannen so they could still have their strong storyline - Phoebe and her demon lover. Or if could have had something to do with all of the bad publicity Shannen was getting after she was arrested while Alyssa was the media darling with all of the commercials. It's something we'll never know for sure, especially when everyone spins it their own way to make themselves look better.
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rebooted
Witch
Started watching at 12
Posts: 1,634
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Post by rebooted on Aug 3, 2017 6:01:44 GMT -5
Alyssa's the one who went to Brad or the Network telling them it was either they fire Shannen or she leaves. - is that correct?
Also at the time, Shannen and Julian were romantic while onscreen Alyssa and Julian's characters very expressively romantically involved.
Add that to Holly being Shannen's best friend
and Holly's onscreen husband Brian Krause being romantically involved with Alyssa
and an inadequate Brad Kern or a Human Resources department
I can see why were was so much tension in Season 3 on top of a very dramatic, intense and an emotional storyline resulting in literally, All Hell Breaking Loose!
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Post by val1993 on Aug 3, 2017 6:38:34 GMT -5
I think, the feud was about them being two professionals who had a different point of view on what being a good actress actually means. Alyssa was literally growing up as both a woman and an actress in front of the whole USA while doing Who's The Boss, and that is certainly a decent experience. But in order to play a cute young girl on a sitcom, the only thing you have to possess is your cute appearance. Shannen was doing 90210 for only 4 years, and although her character was pretty annoying (I just don't like TV shows about teenagers), she was involved in a lot of dramatic scenes and Shannen always does drama to a T. It's only natural that they could get into fights over their views on acting. You are so right about all of that. But both were/are truly professionals. I've always believed that they could set their differences aside once the director said "Action". There was no need to fire Shannen *or* Alyssa as most fans thought was going to happen. Perhaps Alyssa would've left if Shannen didn't so they fired Shannen so they could still have their strong storyline - Phoebe and her demon lover. Or if could have had something to do with all of the bad publicity Shannen was getting after she was arrested while Alyssa was the media darling with all of the commercials. It's something we'll never know for sure, especially when everyone spins it their own way to make themselves look better. They certainly are! And it's a shame that they couldn't set their differences aside which is I think what Shannen regrets now. About three years ago she admitted that if she actually could change her decision to leave the show back then, she would do it ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlf-n6Bb4g). It was all about her being extremely tired of working 12-16 hours per day, not to mention being involved in all the tension on the set.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 3, 2017 7:37:03 GMT -5
But it wasn't her decision. She was fired. That's what I mean by spin. Here's why I believe that to be so. It's the transcript of a TV Guide article that was printed between Season Three and Season Four. It tells the story better than any of us can:
If anyone has seen the interview with Holly Marie Combs on the S8 DVD (I wouldn't waste my money on that season, but I saw it on Youtube - it's since been taken down due to copyright reasons), you can tell that even then, years later, she was still very bitter with the way Shannen's firing was handled. That, above all else, is what tells me that what she said is what actually happened, much more than any spin that Alyssa, Kern, Spelling Productions or even Shannen herself has put out.
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Post by val1993 on Aug 3, 2017 7:44:08 GMT -5
But it wasn't her decision. She was fired. That's what I mean by spin. Here's why I believe that to be so. It's the transcript of a TV Guide article that was printed between Season Three and Season Four. It tells the story better than any of us can: Like I’ve said before, if anyone has seen the interview with Holly Marie Combs on the S8 DVD (I wouldn't waste my money on that season, but I saw it on Youtube - it's since been taken down due to copyright reasons), you can tell she's still very bitter with the way Shannen's firing was handled. That, above all else, is what tells me that what she says is what actually happened, much more than any spin that Alyssa, Kern, Spelling Productions or even Shannen herself has put out. Yes, I read this article which obviously tells us the whole story, but she was probably referring to the fact that she went to Paramount in December 2000 to tell them she wanted to leave the show.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 3, 2017 17:50:25 GMT -5
She might have been talking about that - had she not gone in, maybe they wouldn't have fired her - but I don't think so. Based on other things she's said, I think she wants fans to think she left on her own.
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Granny Charmed
Whitelighter
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Post by Granny Charmed on Aug 4, 2017 9:33:49 GMT -5
She might have been talking about that - had she not gone in, maybe they wouldn't have fired her - but I don't think so. Based on other things she's said, I think she wants fans to think she left on her own. Exactly so dear, Shannen always answers with her typical story of her being the one to leave. But don't we just love our Holly dear, she is so honest, and I believe her story over anyone else. I might hate Piper on the show, but Holly is the only one of the four I like the most.
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nini
Innocent
Posts: 18
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Post by nini on Aug 10, 2017 11:19:02 GMT -5
It never jumped the Shark for me, I love it with all my heart. There is a reason Charmed is my number one all time favorite Tv show and I am a 100% certain that no show could ever knock it out of its number 1 spot.
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rebooted
Witch
Started watching at 12
Posts: 1,634
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Post by rebooted on Feb 28, 2018 2:22:45 GMT -5
I know what charmerjosh will be picking!
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rebooted
Witch
Started watching at 12
Posts: 1,634
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Post by rebooted on Mar 14, 2018 7:06:26 GMT -5
Alyssa's the one who went to Brad or the Network telling them it was either they fire Shannen or she leaves. - is that correct? Also at the time, Shannen and Julian were romantic while onscreen Alyssa and Julian's characters very expressively romantically involved. Add that to Holly being Shannen's best friend and Holly's onscreen husband Brian Krause being romantically involved with Alyssa and an inadequate Brad Kern or a Human Resources department I can see why were was so much tension in Season 3 on top of a very dramatic, intense and an emotional storyline resulting in literally, All Hell Breaking Loose! Looking back at my answer, both in this poll without many alternatives and the above... AHBL is the Jump the Shark moment for me. From the very beginning, it just is a weird episode. Like no other episode before it. The Beginning, Middle and the End is just not Charmed at all! Also, it's when the original power of three is broken which just changes the show forever. In the poll, I ticked the Season 5 Premier because, I still think Charmed could have been salvageable after an overspeed Season 4, that had actually delivered some high quality episodes, but changed the birth order and made Phoebe (the fave) start to feel less likeable. The focus on half-breeds and whitelighters become much more apparent post Season 4. So the jump the shark moment for me is All Hell Breaks Loose. But the peak for me - the very end of Charmed's shelf life would be Womb Raider where the story, although hastily and morbidly, comes to a close.
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Post by Jean on Jul 10, 2019 4:54:43 GMT -5
The Birth of Wyatt and Prue and enter Paige are ones that come to mind.
Especially when the show stopped being about sisters who happen to be witches, and that was set-up in S3 when Phoebe lied to her sisters about Cole, and when the show started to focus more on the sisters relationships with men than with each other.
But I was always under the impression, jump the shark is more on a specific moment or scene, not a specific season. So if it were the exact moment, totally the end of 'Sleuthing With the Enemy' when Phoebe lied about Cole.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Jul 17, 2019 19:27:58 GMT -5
Charmed and Dangerous might as well have been the series finale. Everyone changed after that and it went downhill.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Sept 16, 2019 16:35:04 GMT -5
End of Season 4/Beginning of Season 5.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Dec 21, 2019 12:50:19 GMT -5
No, he wasn't THE character that audiences loved to hate. There were viewers who disliked his character. But there were a lot of viewers who were fans of his character . . . probably even more so than the Halliwells. I believe this was due to the writing and McMahon's performance.
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