Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 26, 2016 21:18:22 GMT -5
Phoebe is the mirror image Cole, she is not half demon but, despite being a good witch,a kind and generous person, she has a dark side which matches Cole's They were fascinating in the first few episodes of the fourth season, a demon and a witch who fought on the side of good just as I was thrilled when Cole became the Source and Phoebe his queen Prue and Andy represented as a pair the loneliness of those who fight for good, Leo and Piper the sweetness, Phoebe and Cole the irresistible attraction of those who perceive his/her obscurity in the other I so, so, love this! It's why S1-3 could've made such a perfect trilogy with Prue and her human; Piper and her angel; and Phoebe with her demon. If only Cole had been full demon, just like if Paige had been a witch with whitelighter powers. That would've taken care of so many different problems...
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 26, 2016 21:30:52 GMT -5
The "halfbreed" thing is such a weird concepts. Especially since no one was calling Prue, Piper, and Phoebe half-witches because Daddy was human. So, how that that work with Cole? Demon Mom + Human Dad. Should be the same as the girls. I can sort of understand Paige, since she's a mixture of magical "creatures."
It would have been nice if they explored Cole's history more, honestly. I know we did that with Reset Reality, but I'd love more about his mother and even his father, since Cole very much cared about his dad. That's how you can "humanize" a character without saying "half demon." That means nothing.
If you dedicate S4 to The Source/Queen Cole/Phoebe storyline, there are many better ways. Take two seasons, that way you can still have the girls mourning Prue and finding Paige and fully developing what The Source is and culminate into Source/Queen storyline for S5.
I feel like, in that case, I would be more willing to accept all the Phoebe/Cole storylines. I guess a part of why I don't like them is how RUSHED it was.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 21:42:24 GMT -5
The "halfbreed" thing is such a weird concepts. Especially since no one was calling Prue, Piper, and Phoebe half-witches because Daddy was human. So, how that that work with Cole? Demon Mom + Human Dad. Should be the same as the girls. I can sort of understand Paige, since she's a mixture of magical "creatures." It would have been nice if they explored Cole's history more, honestly. I know we did that with Reset Reality, but I'd love more about his mother and even his father, since Cole very much cared about his dad. That's how you can "humanize" a character without saying "half demon." That means nothing. If you dedicate S4 to The Source/Queen Cole/Phoebe storyline, there are many better ways. Take two seasons, that way you can still have the girls mourning Prue and finding Paige and fully developing what The Source is and culminate into Source/Queen storyline for S5. I feel like, in that case, I would be more willing to accept all the Phoebe/Cole storylines. I guess a part of why I don't like them is how RUSHED it was. Not to mention the concept of being able to vanquish his "human-half" as if they were perfectly split in two. That's like saying you're half-black, half-white and trying to get rid of one of the races. A ridiculous attempt to absolve Cole of all blame for his past crimes. Saying that, in terms of Season 4, they could've prolonged Cole's "being human" phase, interspersed with a few more "getting to know Paige' episodes and had the final confrontation with the Source be the season finale.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 26, 2016 22:16:26 GMT -5
The "halfbreed" thing is such a weird concepts. Especially since no one was calling Prue, Piper, and Phoebe half-witches because Daddy was human. So, how that that work with Cole? Demon Mom + Human Dad. Should be the same as the girls. I can sort of understand Paige, since she's a mixture of magical "creatures." Exactly so. Although how Paige and Chris can be half-whitelighter while still alive is something I'll never understand. To do something like that just to make the show "fresh"....*shudder* Especially when that half-demon has been a mercenary demon for so very much of his life. To suddenly become "human" makes no sense. And, yeah, I know I've made those points before, but no one has been able to show me why either *makes* sense. I'd love if someone could - then maybe I'd enjoy S4 as much as so many other fans do rather than putting it in the same category as S6 and S8. But that's the problem. They had no idea if fans were going to accept Paige - and I'm guessing they wouldn't have had she been pushed at us the way Billie was (remembering the reaction to Billie), which is why I'm glad they didn't spend all of S4 getting to know Paige... So they had no idea if there would even be a fifth season. They had to wrap everything up just in case there was no fifth season - especially when both Alyssa'a and Holly's contracts were up after Season Five...what if one of them had decided not to re-up? Don't you just hate it when Real Life gets in the way of our TV shows??? I sure do! That's the fun of virtual series like C:RR - you don't have to worry about things like ratings and contracts...you can do exactly what you want. Yup, just like Phoebe and Coop. A lot of fans might have accepted them more if they weren't so darn rushed. Now if only fans hadn't gotten what they wished for - if we hadn't met the Magical Community in S5 (that's what all the boards were about during the summer between S4 & S5...) and we hadn't gotten our 8th season... Then Drake would've been Phoebe's last love....if only...
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 26, 2016 22:17:39 GMT -5
Yeah, more powerless!Cole would have been interesting to see. Especially to compare on Cole and Leo "handled" things.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 26, 2016 22:17:56 GMT -5
The "halfbreed" thing is such a weird concepts. Especially since no one was calling Prue, Piper, and Phoebe half-witches because Daddy was human. So, how that that work with Cole? Demon Mom + Human Dad. Should be the same as the girls. I can sort of understand Paige, since she's a mixture of magical "creatures." It would have been nice if they explored Cole's history more, honestly. I know we did that with Reset Reality, but I'd love more about his mother and even his father, since Cole very much cared about his dad. That's how you can "humanize" a character without saying "half demon." That means nothing. If you dedicate S4 to The Source/Queen Cole/Phoebe storyline, there are many better ways. Take two seasons, that way you can still have the girls mourning Prue and finding Paige and fully developing what The Source is and culminate into Source/Queen storyline for S5. I feel like, in that case, I would be more willing to accept all the Phoebe/Cole storylines. I guess a part of why I don't like them is how RUSHED it was. Not to mention the concept of being able to vanquish his "human-half" as if they were perfectly split in two. That's like saying you're half-black, half-white and trying to get rid of one of the races. A ridiculous attempt to absolve Cole of all blame for his past crimes. Saying that, in terms of Season 4, they could've prolonged Cole's "being human" phase, interspersed with a few more "getting to know Paige' episodes and had the final confrontation with the Source be the season finale. I actually would've preferred that as a possible series finale as compared to PhoeME, Queen of the Underworld and "Witch Way Now?"
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 26, 2016 22:23:25 GMT -5
So after reading this discussion, I guess my answer to the subject is - no, Season Four without Cole and Phoebe probably wouldn't have worked, not when they were the most popular storyline of Season Three and the producers already worried that the fans wouldn't accept Paige.
Unless like what my friends and I were going to do with our virtual series: if the actress who left (in ours, it was Alyssa), had agreed to only stay one more season so you could bring in someone as Paige in Season Three and slowly but surely introduce her as both friend and innocent...letting us find out that she's their half-sister in Season Four...
Remembering that according to various sources, both Shannen and Alyssa wanted out of their contracts at certain points...if only...
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 26, 2016 22:23:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I think as we come up with more "suitable" or interesting storylines for PC, it's easier to say "no." So, instead of it being about S3/4, it would be better to discuss 4/5 if they both focused on what only S4 did. S4 could have been a transition and setup period and S5 is where all hell breaks loose with losing Phoebe to the dark side and trying to get her back.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 26, 2016 22:27:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I think as we come up with more "suitable" or interesting storylines for PC, it's easier to say "no." So, instead of it being about S3/4, it would be better to discuss 4/5 if they both focused on what only S4 did. S4 could have been a transition and setup period and S5 is where all hell breaks loose with losing Phoebe to the dark side and trying to get her back. I must be fading or something...it's been a long couple of weeks... Can you explain better what you mean by that? Okay, I'm going to bed and will read your reply when I wake up. Good night, all!
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Post by sol on Apr 27, 2016 10:00:15 GMT -5
But why are we always runnig through the same stale things? Don't you mean that, in your opinion, Charmed would have ended had Season Four focused on Paige and her past. Because that's all it is, Sol, your opinion. You have NO evidence to back this claim up. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. No one's opinion trumps anyone else's. From now on, let's keep things within the discussion topic instead of responding to anything that could be perceived as a personal attack. If anyone feels that the topic is done, feel free to leave the discussion. If threads get posted in, that means others are still interested in the topics, and everyone is allowed to discuss what the OP is about, as long as the thread stays on topic. I agree and I like to talk of this but there are a lot of threads about Cole and Phoebe, so it'ld more interestingly to bring new arguments just not to tell everywhere the exact same things
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Post by sol on Apr 27, 2016 10:03:21 GMT -5
I agree that half demon doesn't mean that Cole had two different personalities, Cole is Belthazor and he always lived like a demon, with morality, logic and rules of a demon
Cole doesn't turn "good", Cole falls in love, and love is a powerful and irrational feelings, and upsets all the rules that Cole has always respected He don't turn neither human, nor good, he becomes a man willing to fight for a new life, as long as he can live it with the woman he loved
Maybe, I think it was said in a similar thread, Cole is in step with Phoebe because both grew up without parental love, but wishing it When Phoebe had the vision of the child in tears pulled from the arms of his father, I think it is at that moment that Phobe fell for Cole
I believe that many fans felt involved for the oddity of this love: it's the meeting of two solitudes, two temperaments who tend to escape the rules, adventurous and attracted by challenges
The story 'ld need more time, we have often wrote it, but this depended on the WB, which has always acted as Charmed was only a spare wheel.
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Post by adzpower on Apr 27, 2016 12:36:27 GMT -5
I always wanted to see more of Cole when he was a ruthless demon. Maybe some flashbacks would have been cool like they did for Angel in Buffy. Showing how evil he really used to be before he met Phoebe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 13:46:43 GMT -5
I always wanted to see more of Cole when he was a ruthless demon. Maybe some flashbacks would have been cool like they did for Angel in Buffy. Showing how evil he really used to be before he met Phoebe. Why do the Leprechauns awful Irish accents come to my mind...
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Post by adzpower on Apr 27, 2016 15:25:34 GMT -5
I always wanted to see more of Cole when he was a ruthless demon. Maybe some flashbacks would have been cool like they did for Angel in Buffy. Showing how evil he really used to be before he met Phoebe. Why do the Leprechauns awful Irish accents come to my mind... Gee I wonder why!?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 28, 2016 5:39:33 GMT -5
Why do the Leprechauns awful Irish accents come to my mind... Gee I wonder why!? Am I slow? I don't get the joke.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 28, 2016 5:42:59 GMT -5
I agree that half demon doesn't mean that Cole had two different personalities, Cole is Belthazor and he always lived like a demon, with morality, logic and rules of a demon Cole doesn't turn "good", Cole falls in love, and love is a powerful and irrational feelings, and upsets all the rules that Cole has always respected He don't turn neither human, nor good, he becomes a man willing to fight for a new life, as long as he can live it with the woman he loved Maybe, I think it was said in a similar thread, Cole is in step with Phoebe because both grew up without parental love, but wishing it When Phoebe had the vision of the child in tears pulled from the arms of his father, I think it is at that moment that Phobe fell for Cole I believe that many fans felt involved for the oddity of this love: it's the meeting of two solitudes, two temperaments who tend to escape the rules, adventurous and attracted by challenges The story 'ld need more time, we have often wrote it, but this depended on the WB, which has always acted as Charmed was only a spare wheel. Thank you, Sol. That makes more sense than anything else I've read. It's also why I continue to insist that Cole was *not* possessed by the Source but only influenced by the Source's powers. When the Seer says he is the Source she means that now that he has the powers, he has that title, not that he's Half-Face. So everything he did was his own responsibility, just like everything Phoebe did was hers despite being influenced by the Phoetus. I don't understand why so many fans give Cole a break but won't give Phoebe one. I give neither one. Had the show given me a reason to give both one (as you said, if they'd taken more time to show them regretting what they did and try to apologize to the other), I would've enjoyed both then end of S4 and the start of S5 a whole lot more. As is, I rank them with S6 and S8, ones I'd just as soon not rewatch.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 28, 2016 5:44:12 GMT -5
I always wanted to see more of Cole when he was a ruthless demon. Maybe some flashbacks would have been cool like they did for Angel in Buffy. Showing how evil he really used to be before he met Phoebe. Yup, I hated him as the whimpy human (which is who we saw in S5), the same way I hated Leo that way. Getting to see the real devil and the real angel would've been so much more fun.
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Post by Sadrick on Apr 28, 2016 7:05:35 GMT -5
A Charmed series without Cole is like having Buffy without Angel. Plenty of other material exists to allow the story to stand on its own feet, true, but it removes an important element of conflict and intrigue that gives additional layers to an otherwise straightforward arc in the show's running. In Buffy's case, had Angel never existed then events would have been drastically altered, including when he was unwittingly transformed into the antagonist of Season 2 and his later role as a sympathetic confidante who helped reinforce the poignancy of their increasingly blackened actions to a fallen heroine in Season 3.
If you remove the dynamic that existed, romantic and otherwise, thanks to Cole then what you're left with is a fairly tried & true season of Charmed with the only differing aspects being the darkened tone of the story and expansion of the lore. His introduction and relationship to Phoebe helped incorporate some much needed personalised life into the show which we know wasn't being accomplished with Leo.
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Post by adzpower on Apr 28, 2016 7:11:10 GMT -5
Gee I wonder why!? Am I slow? I don't get the joke. In Buffy, whenever they showed Angel's flashbacks in the olden days he would have a really bad Irish accent because he was originally from there. But David Boreanaz, the actor who played him was clearly an American trying to do a rubbish Irish accent.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 28, 2016 7:41:18 GMT -5
Am I slow? I don't get the joke. In Buffy, whenever they showed Angel's flashbacks in the olden days he would have a really bad Irish accent because he was originally from there. But David Boreanaz, the actor who played him was clearly an American trying to do a rubbish Irish accent. That's why I don't like it when people talk about other shows - so many people don't get the private jokes. That's fine in the 'Open Discussion' board, but not the Charmed discussions ones. But thanks for explaining it. I guess you had to watch it to really get it.
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