Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:49:21 GMT -5
Recently, there's been quite a few threads about Seasons 3 and 4 and whether or not those seasons could've been improved. Many of us seem to have come to the conclusion that the Phoebe/Cole pairing was the main thing that dragged those seasons down, whether it's because of the way they took the spotlight away from the Power of Three, or their lack of chemistry, or the way the storyline ultimately ruined both characters, or the way they took away valuable screentime that could've gone towards developing characters like Paige or even the Source, instead.
So, I was starting to think--How would've Seasons 3 and 4 changed had Phoebe/Cole never happened? Do you think the seasons would've improved, or would the show have lost something?
Most probably already know my answer. While I would've missed Cole's character somewhat, I certainly wouldn't have missed Phoebe turning into a selfish brat (or her sloppy, chemistry-less kisses with him).
Without the need to push and develop Phoebe/Cole, I think more time would've been spent on developing who was SUPPOSED to have been the main Big Bad, the Source. I think the sisters, in general, would've all gotten more equal screentime and development, and the focus on the Power of Three, sisterhood, and protecting the innocent wouldn't have been lost nearly as much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:57:58 GMT -5
I wish those two hadn't gotten together for the following reasons:
1. It damaged both characters beyond all hope of repair.
2. It robbed Paige of much needed character development.
3. It took the focus away from the Sisters Three, you know, whom the show was supposed to be about.
I wish Connie Burge hadn't been pushed out. If Connie had stayed, there would have been no Cole. Considering how their ultimately butchered his character, perhaps it would have been better had Cole never existed.
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Post by adzpower on Apr 21, 2016 12:36:33 GMT -5
I mean I get why people didn't like it, I thought it took up way too much screentime as well. BUT I think that storyline kept a lot of casual fans watching because they loved the whole evil romance thing. Without the ratings that storyline bought Charmed may not have gone on for very long past season 4, some would say that's a good thing but hey, if it hadn't continued we'd have nothing to talk about!
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Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Apr 21, 2016 12:46:32 GMT -5
I'll be honest here, I don't think I would like Charmed as much if there wasn't Cole. The problem is the way the writers handled the pairing, not Cole himself. Had they made more of an effort with the Source's storyline, wrapped things up the way they should have, given Paige more on-screen time, left Cole dead, and had Phoebe accept that she was partially responsible for the way things turned out and subsequently grow and change for the better.... There's nothing wrong with the ideas of Season 3/4 (except for Cole giving up his powers and becoming a mere human being because of course his powers are demonic and evil and Phoebe's too narrow-minded and immature to accept him the way he is), just the lousy writing and execution. Cole is definitely one of the most interesting characters of the show, even though he did contribute to Phoebe's deterioration. And honestly, I don't think Cole could not not have existed: by Season 3, Phoebe was the only sister who hadn't had a great, big romance, and I think the WB were very keen on her having one. A witch/demon romance? How could that not be appealing? And going along with that, considering the kind of world we live in and the kind of mentality the WB had, Constance Burge was always going to be pushed out, no matter what.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 15:06:29 GMT -5
I mean I get why people didn't like it, I thought it took up way too much screentime as well. BUT I think that storyline kept a lot of casual fans watching because they loved the whole evil romance thing. Without the ratings that storyline bought Charmed may not have gone on for very long past season 4, some would say that's a good thing but hey, if it hadn't continued we'd have nothing to talk about! I'd accept that argument if not for the fact that the show's ratings actually collapsed in Season 4. Charmed finished Season 3 in 2nd place on the network, while it finished Season 4 at a dismal 7th, the lowest until Seasons 7 and 8. Granted, most of those ratings drops were because of Prue getting replaced with Paige, but it does show that Phoebe/Cole was not the primary draw to the show in Season 3. In fact, after Prue died, the ratings really wouldn't recover until Season 6 with the introduction of Chris. (And, look at how far they sank in the last two seasons after he was killed off. Chris might not be so popular here, but he had a ton of fans back in the day.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 15:06:37 GMT -5
I am on the fence, here, because I do like Cole's character like Nimue does, but I also agree that he did drag Phoebe down in the end. However, I didn't find this obstructive to her character development until Season 5, when she refused to take any responsibility for her own behaviour. Thus I don't resent Cole as much as other fans do because, ultimately, I felt they were as bad as each other. This is a big part of why I think the show took a drastic downturn in quality from Season 5. The sisters stopped being held to account and we - the audience - were expected to "root" for them, no matter how awful they behaved. Going back to Seasons 3-4, I didn't mind Phoebe being "led astray" by Cole because I think it would've been boring to keep her in Seasons 1-2 mode for the duration of the series without any adversity beyond "The demon of ___ is trying to kill me and my sisters". She needed something to shake her up in the same way that Andy's death had to Prue and Leo did to Piper. Phoebe's "dark side" had been alluded to from very early on ('Is the a Woogy in the House?, Pardon My Past') so I didn't find her romance with Cole unbefitting. Plus, the show was still enough about "the sisterhood" in Seasons 3-4 and Phoebe's conflicts with/about Cole involved her sisters considerably more so than any other relationship in the show did. Phoebe's betrayals (letting Cole escape; becoming QOU) were at the heart of her ongoing problems with Prue and Paige. Yeah it wasn't warm and fluffy, friends-forever stuff like Seasons 1-2, but we needed to see show growing pains, some "threats" to the sisters' bond as well. Had Cole just stayed dead after' Long Live the Queen' and Phoebe had acknowledged her mistakes and grown as a person, I would've been a lot happier. To draw on a BtVS comparison - look at the difference in the redemption of Dark Willow compared to Dark Phoebe. So, this is my long-winded way of saying that I probably would've missed Cole from Seasons 3-4, especially if he had not been in Season 5 or if the show had ended after Season 4. However, because of the S5-8 that we did get stuck with it would've been better to have Phoebe/Cole fall very quickly out of love/lust after 'Sleuthing with the Enemy'. In this instance, Phoebe would not fake Cole's death, but he would just escape of his own accord. Phoebe would be wracked with guilt about being fooled into liking him and putting her sisters in harm's way. They would, of course, be very understanding and assure her that it wasn't her fault. From there, I imagine the finale of Season 3 to be a stand-off between Cole and the Brotherhood and the Charmed Ones. The Season 4 'Rulers of the Underworld' plot would be much shorter and consist of Cole kidnapping Phoebe and trying to 'Centennial Charm[ed]' her. The sisters would rescue her and vanquish Cole, before battling the Source in the finale. So basically I am talking about the actual Season 4 but the opposite way around . In this version of events, Phoebe/Cole would still "happen" but not in a way that completely shreds Phoebe's personality/morals/loyalties.
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Post by magena on Apr 21, 2016 15:39:38 GMT -5
Phoebe is the mirror image Cole, she is not half demon but, despite being a good witch,a kind and generous person, she has a dark side which matches Cole's
They were fascinating in the first few episodes of the fourth season, a demon and a witch who fought on the side of good just as I was thrilled when Cole became the Source and Phoebe his queen
Prue and Andy represented as a pair the loneliness of those who fight for good, Leo and Piper the sweetness, Phoebe and Cole the irresistible attraction of those who perceive his/her obscurity in the other
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 15:54:31 GMT -5
I am on the fence, here, because I do like Cole's character like Nimue does, but I also agree that he did drag Phoebe down in the end. However, I didn't find this obstructive to her character development until Season 5, when she refused to take any responsibility for her own behaviour. Thus I don't resent Cole as much as other fans do because, ultimately, I felt they were as bad as each other. This is a big part of why I think the show took a drastic downturn in quality from Season 5. The sisters stopped being held to account and we - the audience - were expected to "root" for them, no matter how awful they behaved. Going back to Seasons 3-4, I didn't mind Phoebe being "led astray" by Cole because I think it would've been boring to keep her in Seasons 1-2 mode for the duration of the series without any adversity beyond "The demon of ___ is trying to kill me and my sisters". She needed something to shake her up in the same way that Andy's death had to Prue and Leo did to Piper. Phoebe's "dark side" had been alluded to from very early on ('Is the a Woogy in the House?, Pardon My Past') so I didn't find her romance of Cole unbefitting. Plus, the show was still enough about "the sisterhood" in Seasons 3-4 and Phoebe's conflicts with/about Cole involved her sisters considerably more so than any other relationship in the show did. Phoebe's betrayals (letting Cole escape; becoming QOU) were at the heart of her ongoing problems with Prue and Paige. Yeah it wasn't warm and fluffy, friends-forever stuff like Seasons 1-2, but we needed to see show growing pains, some "threats" to the sisters' bond as well. Had Cole just stayed dead after' Long Live the Queen' and Phoebe had acknowledged her mistakes and grown as a person, I would've been a lot happier. To draw on a BtVS comparison - look at the difference in the redemption of Dark Willow compared to Dark Phoebe. So, this is my long-winded way of saying that I probably would've missed Cole from Seasons 3-4, especially if he had not been in Season 5 or if the show had ended after Season 4. However, because of the S5-8 that we did get stuck with it would've been better to have Phoebe/Cole fall very quickly out of love/lust after 'Sleuthing with the Enemy'. In this instance, Phoebe would not fake Cole's death, but he would just escape of his own accord. Phoebe would be wracked with guilt about being fooled into liking him and putting her sisters in harm's way. They would, of course, be very understanding and assure her that it wasn't her fault. From there, I imagine the finale of Season 3 to be a stand-off between Cole and the Brotherhood and the Charmed Ones. The Season 4 'Rulers of the Underworld' plot would be much shorter and consist of Cole kidnapping Phoebe and trying to 'Centennial Charm[ed]' her. The sisters would rescue her and vanquish Cole, before battling the Source in the finale. So basically I am talking about the actual Season 4 but the opposite way around . In this version of events, Phoebe/Cole would still "happen" but not in a way that completely shreds Phoebe's personality/morals/loyalties. Interesting response, Deano. I agree that there's nothing wrong with Phoebe having to face personal struggles and dilemmas as a character. The main issue is that she didn't actually grow as a person from it, and instead became a completely unlikable, horrible person. I don't think I would've hated Phoebe/Cole nearly as much had they done it like the way you suggest. (Especially, if you keep Prue/Piper/Phoebe for both Seasons 3 and 4, so we don't have to deal with having to introduce a brand new main character in the midst of all of this.)
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 21, 2016 16:06:09 GMT -5
The problem is the way the writers handled the pairing, not Cole himself. Had they made more of an effort with the Source's storyline, wrapped things up the way they should have, given Paige more on-screen time, left Cole dead, and had Phoebe accept that she was partially responsible for the way things turned out and subsequently grow and change for the better.... There's nothing wrong with the ideas of Season 3/4 (except for Cole giving up his powers and becoming a mere human being because of course his powers are demonic and evil and Phoebe's too narrow-minded and immature to accept him the way he is), just the lousy writing and execution. Bolded: YES! Upon rewatching and things, I've come to realize that it's not COLE I don't like. It's how Cole and PC were handled! (Still don't ship it, but I like Cole more than I used to.) As for the rest...YES YES YES. I can agree there. Introducing Cole and PC relationship isn't terrible and it fits Phoebe to be attracted to someone like Cole, but for sure in S4, everything was just handled very poorly. PC had terrible "side" plots in episodes that it wasn't needed (forever bitter about APFTP). Cole should have died and stayed dead. They just didn't want to lose Julian. Simple as that. And it's a shame. Because Julian and Cole deserved better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 16:38:55 GMT -5
Season One Phoebe was my favourite sister.
Post Cole Phoebe, I wouldn't even like to be in the same room with her.
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Post by West on Apr 21, 2016 23:14:38 GMT -5
They could of written them better if they did. But season 4 was so rushed because of Shannen being fired and Paige being brought in. So much didn't make sense and came out terrible. They could of developed the Phoebe queen of the underworld plot better, or kept that story for season 5, and ended the season with a cliffhanger like Were off to see the Wizard. As I mentioned in another thread.
The idea had potential, it just didn't get written properly.
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Post by unakite on Apr 25, 2016 10:36:12 GMT -5
Phoebe and Cole story is a fundamental part of the fourth season and one of the reasons for its success The love stories in which one of the two must save the other are the most popular, according to statistics Phoebe is the classic girl who grew up without love, rebellious and marginalized without dreams and with few hope for the future, the magic redeems her life, saves her and gives back dreams for her future For tantric balance, she is bound to fall madly in love with a man to be saved Phoebe would love Cole Turner, charming man and District Attorney, but it's Cole / Belthazor, the half-demon to drive to the good, the man who could make her madly in love, he was as a sign of destiny The charm of this story was the question of which of them would bring the other in his-her world, seeing that it was known Phoebe' vulnerability to evil
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 23:55:52 GMT -5
And because of Phoebe/Cole, Paige was robbed of much needed character development.
I'm sorry, but if Kern really didn't want to mess up his big story, then perhaps he should have not fired his lead actor.
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Post by sol on Apr 26, 2016 1:27:39 GMT -5
To Paige was stolen nothing and if they had focused the season 4 atound Paige and her problems as former alcoholic, Charmed'ld close
But why are we always runnig through the same stale things?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 11:38:42 GMT -5
Don't you mean that, in your opinion, Charmed would have ended had Season Four focused on Paige and her past. Because that's all it is, Sol, your opinion. You have NO evidence to back this claim up.
The title of this thread is Charmed Without Phoebe/Cole. I'm staying well within the subject of said thread.
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Post by sol on Apr 26, 2016 16:15:23 GMT -5
And then, since in various threads came this talk, we'ld say something new
Why we have to know somwthing more about Paige?
When Charmed began, Prue had screwed up her marriage to Roger, why this happened? According to the criterion used with Paige, during the episode they'uld have to give us abundant details about the annulled marriage or about all the three sisters
In which college had Piper studied?
Why Phoebe has gone to New York, what did she there for six months? How her bike came to the Manor?
Why no one was curioius about a "cousin cousin who's a drunk, an aunt who's manic"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:37:24 GMT -5
Prue and Roger were NEVER married, they were engaged. Said engagement ended when Roger told Prue that he had an affair with Phoebe.
This is also why Phoebe left for New York, she and Prue had a big fight over this (and I think Roger was lying, Phoebe would never have done that to her sister).
See my answer above as to why she went to New York. Her time there was discussed in the episode Feats Of Clay (for one thing, she went out with Clay).
That's just petty nitpicking.
Because they were mentioned once and never again. However, the "invisible father" was followed up on.
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Post by adzpower on Apr 26, 2016 17:38:40 GMT -5
For me it would have been perfect if they'd kept the Phoebe/Cole stuff in, but make it last longer, don't squeeze it all into one season. Have season 4 expand the relationship and have Cole become The Source right at the end of the season, that clip of his flamy eyes whilst hugging Phoebe would have been the perfect season cliff-hanger. That gives more time over to Paige who can have more of her character expanded on, and then in season 5 have Paige start to doubt Cole, and then have the queen of the underworld thing and then have that season end with Cole being vanquished. That way we get Paige development, Kern's precious queen story and The Source gone, it could have been more spaced out.
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 26, 2016 21:06:27 GMT -5
I could have been more okay with PC if they didn't push it all into one season. If they had explored the new sister and delved more with The Source and had the finale as a defeat or PC "evil couple" and S5 about Piper and Paige trying to "save" Phoebe and stuff, I think it could be more enjoyable. But they crunched it all into one, less than that.
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Post by Assassin Witch on Apr 26, 2016 21:12:10 GMT -5
But why are we always runnig through the same stale things? Don't you mean that, in your opinion, Charmed would have ended had Season Four focused on Paige and her past. Because that's all it is, Sol, your opinion. You have NO evidence to back this claim up. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. No one's opinion trumps anyone else's. From now on, let's keep things within the discussion topic instead of responding to anything that could be perceived as a personal attack. If anyone feels that the topic is done, feel free to leave the discussion. If threads get posted in, that means others are still interested in the topics, and everyone is allowed to discuss what the OP is about, as long as the thread stays on topic.
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