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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 22, 2006 16:38:46 GMT -5
Phoebe and Cole rock... Thats all Im saying... Plus poor Phoebe when she had to vanquish him.... awwwww!!!
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Post by Rose Evangeline on Sept 25, 2006 6:54:13 GMT -5
ljones, I disagree with you. Phoebe has grown as a person and as a witch. She has been the one that has had to go through the most crap. Besides, the relationship(s) the writers had her go through can happen. I know because I was married and left my husband and stopped believing in True Love till I found my current guy. He's the greatest and he's shown me what it was like to feel again and to Love again. So, that kind of "Fairy-Tale Romance" as you call it can happen. Rose Evangeline  |
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 25, 2006 16:25:02 GMT -5
Are you sure shes been through the most c***? I mean, the other sisters have been through alot too!! Look at Piper... Dont get me wrong am a keen Phoebe fan, but what shes been through pales in comparison to what Piper has... Phoebe just moaned about it more!! LOL!!
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 25, 2006 16:46:51 GMT -5
Are we seriously contemplating who suffered more than whom? Each was affected in her own way. I can't begin to compare. Isn't it more important to learn from trials and tribulations? Besides, as Forever Charmed noted, "We are a family of survivors." There is nothing like: Piper had more to go through than me, etc.
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Post by ljones on Sept 26, 2006 11:55:16 GMT -5
Has Phoebe truly learned from her experiences? I wonder. She still blamed Cole for the breakup of their relationship. She refuses to accept SOME of the blame for what happened. Her way of confronting Piper about moving out of the manor was immature (and this happened in S8). And she ended up with a guy who seemed more like a dream man than someone she could have a realistic relationship with. In fact, I could say that her marriage to Coop is a metaphor for Phoebe's continuing immaturity and her tendency to wallow in illusions.
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Post by charmedgoddess on Sept 26, 2006 14:26:52 GMT -5
Cole was not the only the reason to blame, because it wasn't meant to be, but he's the one who accepted to have the hollow inside him, which enabled him to get the sorces powers, and when the sorce was finally destroyed it was cole who wanted Phoebe to get him out of the wasteland by using dark magic/the Grimoir to ressurect him. He purposely gained powers in the wasteland to escape, and he made an altered reality where Paige was dead to try and win here back. Phoebe did everything she could to try and save Cole, but in the end it failed thankfully he in a way redemed himself by sending Drake.
As far as Coop is concerned, Phoebe needed him and who he was even if to you it was a dream guy, especially after what happened with Cole, then Jason, and Dex. She was having no luck with mortals; why not someone magical, basically Love itself? Because to me thats what Phoebe wanted and thats what Coop is, and to Coop thats what Phoebe represented to him
Let Prue and Paige have their hero types, (Andy/Henry) let Piper have her higher called being, (Leo) but me I'm with Phoebe love is the best!
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 26, 2006 15:03:24 GMT -5
Well said, but theres still an apsect that I see in Phoebe when she says Coles name... and thinks about him... He may not have been perfect but she did love him and he loved her back fiercly... They were made for each other...
And Cole didnt know that he was goin to turn evil when he took in the Hollow... He thought that he was saving Phoebe and that the Hollow wouldgo back to normal when it was extracted from him... He stole those powers to get back to Phoebe, and I know I would if I wanted to escape... And he was goin loopy when he created that alternate reality...
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Post by ljones on Sept 26, 2006 18:46:00 GMT -5
You say that Cole isn't solely to blame, yet you've managed to list his mistakes and not Phoebe's. Interesting. Phoebe DID NOT do everything to save her marriage. I saw Season 5, as well.
Why did Cole have to be perfect? Is that what Phoebe needed in her life? The perfect man?
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 27, 2006 18:43:50 GMT -5
No, and thats not what I said... Phoebe just needs love... Coop, being a being of love could in a way give this... But Cole worshipped Phoebe, and that I dont see from Coop...
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 28, 2006 0:39:00 GMT -5
Worshipped? Hardly! In his demonic days, it was probably more lusted for possession. In his Mr. Invincible period, it was probably a desire to be accepted for who he was and could become if Phoebe would mother him. In his human days, maybe he could have accepted her on normal terms, but this was all too short-lived. I never ever got the sense that Cole and Phoebe ever really shared anything, except maybe the sack! Yeah, he was a handsome dude and she a babe, but what did they really have that constituted a viable relationship based on mutual trust and respect and oh yeah (love)?
Now, Piper and Leo: that's another matter. That's love and all the heartbreak that goes with it as people change and expectations may or may not change commensurately.
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 28, 2006 6:59:31 GMT -5
No!! dont say that!! Lol!!
No, Phoebe and Cole shared mutual feelings... Maybe in bed or not in bed... They did loved each other... Did you not see the way that they looked at each other sometimes? *sighs* it was love...
(and cole is more than a handsome dudE!!!!)
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Post by ljones on Sept 28, 2006 10:13:00 GMT -5
Worshipped? Hardly! In his demonic days, it was probably more lusted for possession. In his Mr. Invincible period, it was probably a desire to be accepted for who he was and could become if Phoebe would mother him. In his human days, maybe he could have accepted her on normal terms, but this was all too short-lived. I never ever got the sense that Cole and Phoebe ever really shared anything, except maybe the sack! Yeah, he was a handsome dude and she a babe, but what did they really have that constituted a viable relationship based on mutual trust and respect and oh yeah (love)? Now, Piper and Leo: that's another matter. That's love and all the heartbreak that goes with it as people change and expectations may or may not change commensurately. Both Phoebe and Cole, along with Piper and Leo, went through their shares of heartache. You seemed willing to dismiss Phoebe's romance with Cole, simply because of what he was . . . a half-demon. It seems that many of the viewers continue to accept the show's ridiculous "credo" that evil cannot love. What people seemed to forget is that anyone - regardless of his or her moral code - is capable of love. But love can have a negative impact upon someone's character, just as much as a positive effect. Not only have we seen this in Cole, but we've also seen it in the sisters, along with some of the negative aspects of Piper and Leo's relationship. We've also seen this in other characters. |
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Post by HollysFan on Sept 28, 2006 12:48:04 GMT -5
There's a huge difference between love and lust. Cole loved Phoebe because he was half human. That was the side that loved her. But you saw a big difference in feelings when his demon half would emerge more.
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Post by ljones on Sept 28, 2006 13:38:12 GMT -5
No, and thats not what I said... Phoebe just needs love... Coop, being a being of love could in a way give this... But Cole worshipped Phoebe, and that I dont see from Coop... No. I saw that both Cole and Coop were in love with Phoebe. I also see this as an attempt by Kern or Milano to dismiss the whole Phoebe/Cole storyline, in an attempt to get some of the viewers to forget about the romance and readily accept the Phoebe/Coop romance. To me, it was an attempt to manipulate the viewers' feelings regarding Phoebe's love life. It seemed to work with some viewers and fail with others . . . including me. In fact, I would have preferred if Phoebe and Jason had stuck it out, instead of Phoebe ending up with the too perfect Coop. There's a huge difference between love and lust. Cole loved Phoebe because he was half human.Cole loved Phoebe because he loved her. It was as simple as that. His species had nothing to do with it. As Belthazor, he was still able to show his love for her ("Bride and Gloom"). The show has also shown darklighters, demons and evil sorcerers capable of falling in love. |
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 28, 2006 16:45:03 GMT -5
yes they are... and it was wholy love between them...
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 29, 2006 14:19:58 GMT -5
Yes, I am saying that demons cannot love. And, we've had this debate before. Now, Cole was half-human. He could have loved, but I don't see evidence of this in Charmed: not when he was human, not when he was half-human. Getting googly-eyed is not love! Having pathos is not love! Yet, each may be a necessary component of love!
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Post by *Sammi!* on Sept 29, 2006 17:57:44 GMT -5
Are you sure he couldnt love though? He seemed pretty convincing... He would do practically anything for Phoebe... I know thats love...
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Post by starr on Oct 1, 2006 17:29:00 GMT -5
I absolutely think what Cole and Phoebe had constituted a viable relationship based on respect and trust . As much as most people do. And there was more to it than just being physical and googly eyes. They cared deeply for one another.
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Post by ljones on Oct 2, 2006 12:52:49 GMT -5
yes they are... and it was wholy love between them... Holy love? What is that? You're just going to have to accept the fact that not everyone buys this argument. I'm sure that you're aware of how I regard Cole. And it is apparent to me that you do not like the character. If you want to believe that Cole never loved Phoebe or understood what love was about . . . fine. But I cannot accept or agree with your opinion. What you view as love and what I view as love are obviously two different things. I suggest that we leave it at that. So what do you think love is? The DISNEY version that Kern and his writers gave us, when Phoebe and Coop became a couple? If you think that is what love is only about . . . you can keep that opinion. I don't share it? |
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Post by Xenith on Oct 4, 2006 15:53:34 GMT -5
Seriously for people to say that Cole didn't love Phoebe and that Phoebe didn't love Cole, that just sounds crazy to me. I mean yeah I agree that it probably was more lust at first, and then by the end of his run during S5 that love was likely pushed towards the background of his motivations, replaced with desire for acceptance and other such issues.
But to say they never loved means you have to have forgotten the times when the fact that they loved each other was a major plot point for an episode.
It was Cole confessing his love to Phoebe that turned her back from being a Banshee in Look Who's Barking. And to say that Phoebe didn't love Cole, you have to have completely forgotten A Witch's Tale Pt 1 & 2 (Which I can't blame you too much since those two pretty much sucked...except the Piper subplot). Regardless though the episode made it very clear that Phoebe LOVED Cole, from the way her confession turned her back to Paige's spell to reveal what was in her heart.
And if Cole only lusted after Phoebe, can you please explain why he was willing to put his life on the line so many times for Phoebe's sake? And not just for Phoebe's life, at least twice twice he put himself on the line to save Piper for Phoebe. (Brain Drain he allows himself to be knocked unconscious and taken to the Source, and Hell Hath he volunteers to be fury bait)
Then there were the times where he not only risk his life was completely willing to lose his own life to Phoebe's. In Black as Cole when he realizes that the only way to stop Sikes is to allow his demonic nature to take over he tells Phoebe to be prepared to use the Balthazar vanquish. A potion that will KILL him in order to save her.
And how about in Charmed & Dangerous, people may try to make the case that he had alterior motives for using the Hollow, but what about before that. Phoebe tells Cole that she saw him being killed by jumping in front of the Source's FBoD to save her. And yet Cole who has no powers, no knowledge that he will have the hollow, and no chance at all of surviving such an encounter refuses to leave as he believes that if he isn't there then the FBoD will instead kill Phoebe.
Do you seriously want to say that he's willing to sacrifice his life to save hers out of pure lust? Because she was good in bed? Because of nothing but pathos? How much more of a sign of love do you need?
How about how a dead Cole, who doesn't seem to have a chance of returning sends Drake to Phoebe to help her find love with SOMEONE ELSE? Why would he want her to find happiness even if her life didn't include him, if not for love?
Heck we haven't even talked about how he was willing to completely change his life for her, he was willing to give up everything he knew of a life as a demon, he offered to have his powers stripped prior to Black as Cole, he was willing to go get a job like a normal person for her...
Likewise Phoebe was willing to give-up most of her life for Cole and to become the Queen of the Underworld. (Granted this was somewhat retconned into the baby made me do it, and because of the human sacrifice factor involved in the coronation that's not necessarily a really bad thing...)
By comparison what exactly did we see Coop do for Phoebe? We know he's a being of love, but how did he really demonstrate his love? When did we see him put his life on line for hers? If anything he showed little more than lust all the way up till Gone with the Witches. Coop wasn't even willing to even put himself out there to Phoebe until after she had told him she wanted him.
After that he talked about loving her a whole lot, but really didn't do much to really show it. When she went to him for moral support he started to offer it, but when the opportunity to bed her arose he jumped at it before ever thinking her behavior was odd. (Plus there was Nymphgate...)
He gets points for looking for her...at Victor's a couple weeks after she dissapeared. A line about checking with Elders or even him searching the Underworld would have been nice, or heck lets hear that he alerted the cupid network to be on the look out, something to show he's willing to go the extra step for her... Each time she asks him to leave he does so without putting up a fight for her, he doesn't offer to help her deal with the Triad problem he just wants to talk about "us".
When told of her death Coop doesn't even break down, he doesn't even offer to go with Piper to help her use the ring to save Phoebe (That can be chalked up to the contrivance fairy I know, but it still unfortunately reflects on the character and their actions in a situation)
In all fairness though we didn't have much time with Coop, nor with Phoop, so given the opportunity to really put his life on the line, or to go that extra step for Phoebe, he may very well do so. So I'm not going to make a case that he didn't love her, because if you believe all the stuff he wouldn't shut-up about he did...
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