ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 25, 2007 12:53:17 GMT -5
Not an excuse, ljones. It's the truth. It's an excuse. It doesn't matter how Jason would have reacted. Phoebe became seriously involved with a man for NEARLY A YEAR. I can understand her keeping her secret for one or two months. But once her relationship with Jason became truly serious, she CONTINUED TO LIE to him. Even the show's writers pointed out that what Phoebe was doing was WRONG. |
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redowl
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Post by redowl on Jan 25, 2007 14:40:29 GMT -5
ljones.
Really.
How would you have reacted if the person you were currently dating came out a month or two later and just said they were magical? And, seriously. Don't tell me you would have reacted happily, because you wouldn't.
I'm not saying Phoebe wasn't being slightly immature in keeping it from him that long, but she was not going to come out and say it after they had only been dating one or two months. Maybe half a year...maybe even four months...but one or two months is just way too soon.
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Post by MarAcev on Jan 25, 2007 15:46:35 GMT -5
Actually, they had been dating for more than a few months.
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redowl
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Post by redowl on Jan 25, 2007 17:46:54 GMT -5
Actually, they had been dating for more than a few months. I KNOW that. I'm just saying...when they had only been dating for one or two months, would she have really wanted to let him know about her being a witch? Maybe when they were heading toward their half-year anniversary, he should have known, but not before that...why would Jason accept it that early? I find it rather unrealistic that Phoebe would risk her secret for a guy she had (at the time) only been dating one or two months, as of yet. |
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Post by Assassin Witch on Jan 25, 2007 18:12:29 GMT -5
Too many things I agree with on this TEN page Phoebe thread, so I'm not going to discuss past issues. But, Phoebe is my least favorite Charmed One, and always has been. I didn't mind her in Seasons 1-2, but that's it. She is in fact one of my least favorite characters on the entire show.
Okay, Jason. I really thought they had a lot of chemistry, and Redowl, you aren't making any sense. What's with this month or two thing you keep talking about? A year is twelve months. No one said she had to tell him two months in, but she should have told him...oh, when they started LIVING together in Season 6. (They started dating in S5.) I don't think he would have reacted the same. He walked into the kitchen and saw the girls orb back in. Um...her telling him the truth would have been easier to believe than seeing someone appear out of lights.
Coop. Umm....yeah...Phoebe had more chemistry with Cupid from Season 2. But, I do agree that Coop wasn't given enough time for us to really think of them together since it was so rushed. (Though, one ep with Cupid still did have a lot more chemistry than how many eps with Coop. *shrugs*) Happy endings, honestly, that is such BS!
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Post by vandergraafk on Jan 25, 2007 18:43:56 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is justifying Phoebe's deception. Certainly, her inability to come clean compounded the reaction that Jason eventually had. However, I do think we have to consider the other side of the coin. If Phoebe had found a way to come clean, would it have made a difference? My contention is that it would not have. Jason was an alpha male absolutely at ease in a high power media world. The very idea that there existed a parallel and potentially more powerful world woven intricately into the world that he knew and had mastered was beyond his comprehension.
Imagine the shock to his system when suddenly he must surely have realized that he was in control of nothing, that no matter how much capital he had managed to assemble or how many conglomerations he might have created out of merger talks, there existed a demonic underworld which could have subverted any and every thing in an instant! Talk about emasculation. He would have dumped Phoebe like a hot potato under the best of circumstances.
To illustrate the point further: consider how Henry reacted to Paige coming clean. Why did he accept it without much ado? I suspect Henry was well aware that neither he nor his parolees were in control of their fates. Life, for Henry, was a matter of luck in some respect. And, it's unfair too. Some people get dealt a raw deal just as Henry had when he grew up in an orphanage. Yet, Henry believed that choices could be made, that an individual's efforts could alter what fate has in store. That Paige was a good witch who could pull a few strings to tip the balance in the favor of a good outcome, I believe, was eminently appealing to Henry.
So before continuing the Phoebe jihad, let's try to look at this issue from a broader perspective. I know Phoebe has her faults, especially when she's like totally PhoeME, but any witch would have had a problem with Jason! Phoebe may have compounded a problem, but she wasn't the sole reason the problem existed in the first place.
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redowl
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Post by redowl on Jan 26, 2007 15:42:14 GMT -5
What's with this month or two thing you keep talking about? A year is twelve months. No one said she had to tell him two months in, but she should have told him...oh, when they started LIVING together in Season 6. (They started dating in S5.) I don't think he would have reacted the same. He walked into the kitchen and saw the girls orb back in. Um...her telling him the truth would have been easier to believe than seeing someone appear out of lights. Never mind! I meant, in those TWELVE MONTHS---in that YEAR, Phoebe wouldn't have said that she was a witch two months INTO that twelve months!!!!!! Two months into their year relationship is just...argh. Never mind, anyway. You wouldn't get it... And even I am not justifying Phoebe's actions. |
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Post by MarAcev on Jan 27, 2007 6:09:02 GMT -5
I totally agree with vandergraafk here.
Any normal, mortal woman would've had a problem with him. The question then is, why was Phoebe attracted to such a looser (and I'm not talking about money here)? Was it the eternal problem of pure physical attraction when the personality compatibility was zero?
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 29, 2007 13:51:19 GMT -5
Frankly, I do not think that it mattered how Jason would have reacted. How he would have reacted seems nothing more than a poor excuse for Phoebe's actions, to me. So what if Jason was an alpha male or difficult? Is that supposed to excuse Phoebe's own actions? C'mon!
What I find more important is that Phoebe had lied to Jason for nearly a year. If he had reacted negatively, then she would have lost him a lot earlier. If he had reacted positively, then Phoebe would have a possible successful relationship to enjoy.
But it doesn't really matter how Jason would have reacted. What I believe really mattered was her inability to be truthful to him. She tried to maintain her relationship with Jason through lies and evasions.
If another character had been lying to Phoebe or any of her sisters, many fans would be outraged. But these same fans seem to think that because Phoebe, Paige and Piper are the "Charmed Ones", they have every right to maintain a relationship through lies. And I find that rather hypocritical.
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redowl
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Post by redowl on Jan 30, 2007 17:52:40 GMT -5
Cole lied to Phoebe. Numerous times.Yet, we're not outraged. In fact, we positively adore Cole - most of the Charmed population at least. I know this is not about Cole, but he - himself - maintained a relationship with lies. He lied about being Belthazor, he made Phoebe lie about him being dead, he lied about being the Source, and he... Practically their whole relationship was built over lies. (Not that Cole could have told Phoebe that he was the Source, really...just for demonstration, again. I'm not bashing your "blessed" Cole.) Red Owl |
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Post by charmedfan4evr on Jan 31, 2007 15:48:04 GMT -5
he made Phoebe lie about him being dead He didn't make Phoebe lie about him being dead. Phoebe made that decision all on her own, she came up with the whole plan. |
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redowl
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Post by redowl on Feb 1, 2007 13:09:56 GMT -5
he made Phoebe lie about him being dead He didn't make Phoebe lie about him being dead. Phoebe made that decision all on her own, she came up with the whole plan. Well, sure. But that doesn't mean he didn't make Phoebe deliberately lie to protect him. |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 1, 2007 14:53:26 GMT -5
You might as well say the same thing about Piper's relationship with Leo. Because the . . . same . . . thing . . . happened. Piper got involved with Leo. She refrained from telling him that she was a witch and made an effort to keep it a secret. At the same time, Leo pretended that he didn't know that Piper was a witch, when actually he did. Piper didn't learn the truth about Leo until near the end of Season 1.
In Phoebe and Cole's case - Phoebe got involved with Cole. She refrained from telling him that she was a witch and made an effort to keep it a secret. At the same time, Cole pretended that he didn't know that Phoebe was a witch, when actually he did. Phoebe didn't learn the truth about Cole until the seventh episode of Season 3.
The only time Prue told Andy the truth about herself was when she cast that truth spell in early Season 1. . . which wore off after 24 hours, by the way. When the spell wore off, Andy forgot about everything that Prue told him. And she maintained her secret about the Charmed Ones, until Andy stumbled across the truth in late Season 1.
Dan never knew that Piper was a witch during most of Season 2 . . . until she was forced to tell him the truth in the season's final episode.
Patty never told Victor that she was a witch until after the wedding.
Of all the women in the family, Paige seemed to be the only one willing to tell the truth about herself whenever she got seriously involved with a guy . . . unless there was one she was never honest with.
Cole lied about being the Source, because the Source's spirit made it impossible for him to reveal the truth, considering the latter was in possession of Cole's body.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 1, 2007 18:50:36 GMT -5
Gosh, lying is a strong word, isn't it? I'm troubled that some of the things that we are labelling as lies are maybe something other than what we are describing them as. Prue certainly was perplexed about how to approach Andy with her secret. After the truth spell is cast in The Truth is Out There and It Hurts, Andy blanches when he is told by Prue that if their (Andy's and Prue's) relationship produced female offspring, then these daughters would be witches. Towards the end of Season 1, Andy is indeed furious that Prue only gave him one minute at the threshhold of his apartment to make a decision, one which, of course, he cannot recall when the spell wears off one minute later. He is angry that he was given such a short amount of time in which to make a momentous decision and WORSE that Prue based her behavior on his snap judgement. As we know, Andy did come to accept Prue's unique nature and offered his life in order to save hers and her sisters' lives.
Was this a lie, a deliberate fabrication? Or, was this an example of a gut-wrenching decision that Prue, barring a conjuring of Grams or Patty, could not make after taking the usual step of soliciting advice from friends and relations? To call this a lie just seems way, way too strong!
As for Piper and Leo, I can only add that both Leo and Piper withheld crucial information. Had Piper listened to Phoebe in Secrets and Guys, she would have known that Leo was a whitelighter. Instead, she (and Prue) dismissed Phoebe's truth-telling as yet another of Phoebe's tall tales. Of course, in Love Hurts that truth came out. Piper's fury at learning that the man she loved was really a whitelighter was certainly tempered by the fact that she had withheld from Leo the fact that she was a witch. Yes, Leo already knew she was one. Still, in The Fourth Sister, she and Prue were concerned lest Andy and Leo overhear the babble that Aviva's was blurting out in the foyer of the manor.
Is that lying, mutual or otherwise? I don't know. It seems to me as if it's two people trying to lay all of the cards on the table in a way that will not do harm. Piper never found a way. Leo's gambit was up when he plummeted into the attic wounded by Alec's darklighter poison.
And, Paige? Paige got busted by Glenn when Glenn got really curious as to why Phoebe was suddenly back at the manor when she was supposed to be at the courthouse. After a bit of misplaced sandwich making, Glenn stumbles on some strange things at the manor, including the Book of Shadows. Paige was forced to come clean when confronted by Glenn.
So, was Paige a liar? Well, she sure did withhold critical information from her childhood friend and, from what she relates to us, her best friend. Again, I am not convinced.
As for Cole and Phoebe: gosh, I could go on and on, I suppose. I probably will. But, Cole's character is rather complex. It is, in my view, one of the richest in all of Charmedverse. As he confronts the sisters and begins to set in motion his mission to steal their book of shadows and destroy them, Cole gains a grudging admiration of and respect for the sisters' abilities. In All Halliwell's Eve, even though he has tried to destroy the genesis of the Warren line of witches, he is forced to conclude that the sisters learn fast and are truly remarkable and worthy opponents.
Yes, Cole does recognize that Phoebe is perhaps the weakest link in the Halliwell triquetra. Prue is beyond love, Piper is in love and Phoebe is desperate for love. (Wasn't she always?) Yet, Cole did not plan on actually falling in love with her. Bedding a witch compromised his status with both the TRIAD and the Source, not to mention the Brotherhood of the Thorn. Yet, it also made him ambivalent with respect to his mission. When alas he has the chance to kill Phoebe, he cannot. Mission over and not accomplished!
I'm certain that Phoebe was less enamored of his deception than she was of his willingness to risk all for her love. Prue, on the other hand, was furious, and that explains her hostility towards Cole for the rest of season three. And, Prue is really furious when she learns that Phoebe engages in deceit with respect to the vanquish of Belthazor.
Phoebe does have a legitimate beef when Cole, after sacrificing his status as a mortal, in order to save Phoebe and her sisters, does not divulge his new status as the Source incarnate. Ljones believes that Cole is unable to divulge this secret because of the Source's success in suppressing Cole's essence. Certainly, in Coyote Piper, Piper was barely able to manage a few jarring actions to suggest that the Piper Prue and Phoebe were interacting with was not the real Piper, but a demon in possession of her body. Cole could not even manage that. At best, Cole could restrain the Source and divert the Source from the prize for fairly brief instances. For example, Cole's enthusiasm at Phoebe's pregnancy expresses itself in the on-line acquisitions Cole manages to prepare Phoebe for a new baby and to celebrate their happiness.
Once Phoebe does learn the truth about Cole as the Source, Cole still allows her a choice. She chose to walk with Cole and forsake her sisters. The fact that Cole had been unable or unwilling to come clean earlier when Phoebe might have been able to make a more reasoned choice does not figure in Phoebe's decision. She may have harbored a grudge, but at this time she does not express it. Later, in Season 5, I will allow that all of this gets rehashed and explains in part the intense anger that Phoebe has towards Cole as Mr. Invincible.
The bottom line, to me, is that lying or accusing anyone of lying, really seems too simplistic a way of approaching the complex tangle of factors that complicate the ability of the sisters, Leo or Cole to come clean, as it were. Isn't that one of the secrets to Charmed's success?
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 2, 2007 11:06:58 GMT -5
Why do you always make excuses for the Charmed Ones and Leo?
Despite the fact that Cole is my favorite character, even I can't make excuses for actions I consider blunders on his part.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 2, 2007 18:16:40 GMT -5
Is this the problem? You think I'm making EXCUSES for the Charmed Ones? No, I'm trying to understand the dynamics of the situations discussed. I remain unpersuaded by any of the statements you've brought to bear. You mention Prue. I cite episode, line and verse in my analysis. You ignore this. Whatever! You mention Piper and Leo. Again, I cite episode, line and verse in my analysis. You ignore this. Whatever! You mention Paige and get this completely wrong when I cite episode, line and verse. You ignore this. Whatever! I take a nuanced approach to Cole versus Phoebe and you like this only because Cole is your raison d'etre. Whatever! It's your problem that you hate the writers, the producers, hey, maybe even the characters post-Prue. It's not mine! I don't make excuses; I analyze. I know for someone for whom the blame game is what it's all about might have difficulty with the concept. But, that's something for you to decide!
By the way, as forthcoming as it might seem on your part that even you are willing to discuss Cole's errors (blunders, as it were) rather than make excuses, this is yet another example of avoiding analysis. No where have I even mentioned Cole's errors in judgement. Maybe he made some, maybe he didn't. I don't know. I haven't had time to do a complete and thorough analysis of one of Charmed's most interesting and complex characters. What I thought was being discussed in the past several posts was the deception that Phoebe and perhaps the other sisters may have engaged in, especially as it relates to the significant others in their lives. Someone suggested that perhaps Cole had prompted Phoebe to lie. Someone else demurred. I simply chose to analyze the charge that lying indeed did occur. Stay on topic!
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 5, 2007 14:55:30 GMT -5
It seems like a lie to me. Why deny it?
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 5, 2007 18:52:58 GMT -5
Is all deception tantamount to lying? If I withhold crucual information from you, I certainly am deceiving you or, at the very least, misleading you. I may even be leading you on. But, I surely am not lying to you.
When did Leo or Piper for that matter ever lie with respect to their peculiar natures to each other? They never in fact did. Leo never revealed to Piper that he was a whitelighter. Nor did he disclose before Love Hurts that whitelighters were prohibited from getting close to witches (in general) or their charges (in particular). Piper never tells Leo that she is a witch, let alone a Charmed One.
Clearly, each of these failures leads to the other person being misled. Piper concludes erroneously that Leo is unavailable for some unknown reason after she rules out - upon direct cross examination - that Leo is married, is engaged, has another person, lives in a far away city. For her, Leo is yet another example of a geographically undesirable guy.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 8, 2007 14:50:16 GMT -5
Okay, they didn't lie. Instead, they deceived each other. Just as Phoebe and Cole deceived each other in early Season 3. Whether they lied or held back the truth, all four committed the act of deception. Just as Phoebe had deceived Jason in Seasons 5 and 6. And because of this, Jason had a right to be angry by Phoebe's . . . "deceptions".
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 16, 2007 19:47:12 GMT -5
And, is anyone denying Jason the right to be angry at Phoebe? I don't think so. He certainly would have the right to be extremely disappointed at Phoebe. Whether anger helps I can't assess. Sometimes it may be useful to blow off steam, but does it really help in the long run? Who knows? Maybe Ask Phoebe does. In the event, the more interesting question remains: how would Jason have reacted had Phoebe not deceived him? It is my contention that he would not have been able to handle it. For him, as a dominant alpha male in an alpha male world of business, the idea that his seeming prowess - wealth, business acumen, and social contacts - could be reduced to mere nothingness by the existence of a parallel universe where witches and demons hold sway would seem to militate against any possibility that he could ever have accepted Phoebe as a witch!
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