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Post by esperanzaa on Jan 25, 2016 14:22:51 GMT -5
HI, everyone, from when did Phoebe's character start to go downhill? Name concrete episodes/seasons. Was there, according to you, a trigger for her annoying behaviour? Or do you think she started to change out of the blue?
I'll post my reasons later.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 25, 2016 19:13:21 GMT -5
For me, that's easy. "Sleuthing with the Enemy" when she lied to Prue about vanquishing Belthazor, putting her lover over her sisters and putting her sisters in danger. During that episode, my favorite character "Phoebs" died and my least-favorite character, PhoeME, was born. From then on, it was always all about her.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 22:52:29 GMT -5
One of the rare times I actually agree with Es. I like Cole, but he really was the beginning of the end for Phoebe's character. She started to become FAR more selfish and more concerned with whoever she was sleeping with than her sisters or innocents.
A lot of people think Season 5 was when she went downhill, but I'm afraid the decline started earlier than that. Ditto for Piper.
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Post by Sadrick on Jan 25, 2016 23:11:18 GMT -5
I suppose it technically began in Season 3 like Esmeralda put it. Although I would argue that her selfish egomaniacal self didn't really begin to take the centre part of her personality until Season 5.
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 25, 2016 23:36:38 GMT -5
No, that happened when she turned her back on her sisters and became Queen of the Underworld.
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 1:33:24 GMT -5
I say Season 5, when Cole came back. One lie does not mean a character has suddenly gone downhill, it's just a mistake they've made. Phoebe still cared about innocents in Season 3 and 4 (and maybe still in 5 but I'd have to rewatch it).
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Post by sol on Jan 26, 2016 4:11:53 GMT -5
I say Season 5, when Cole came back. One lie does not mean a character has suddenly gone downhill, it's just a mistake they've made. Phoebe still cared about innocents in Season 3 and 4 (and maybe still in 5 but I'd have to rewatch it). I agree, it was Cole return to push Phoebe away from magic She always cared for the innocents, in every seasons, but she tried to stay away from the magic that she had so loved but that in her life had also brought death and the tragedy of her marriage and the loss of her baby |
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Post by adzpower on Jan 26, 2016 4:58:02 GMT -5
I would say there were signs in seasons 3/4, but even while queen she still wanted to save that innocent, I don't think it was truly until season 5 and Cole came back that really set her off into selfishness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 8:27:08 GMT -5
She started going downhill in "Sleuthing With the Enemy".
Then she tripped and started falling a$$ over head in the second half of season 4.
Then she finally landed face first into a stinking bog around season 5.
And she merrily splashed around in it until the show ended.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 26, 2016 8:53:30 GMT -5
She started going downhill in "Sleuthing With the Enemy". Then she tripped and started falling a$$ over head in the second half of season 4. Then she finally landed face first into a stinking bog around season 5. And she merrily splashed around in it until the show ended.  And we have ourselves a winner. |
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 9:52:33 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind someone explaining why ONE lie means a character's downfall. It was a stupid, irresponsible thing to do considering how dangerous Cole was, but it doesn't mean it destroyed her character. It just means she made a mistake, that she's flawed (and can anyone say they would have done differently? That they would have had the courage to admit they let a dangerous demon run loose?)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 11:29:37 GMT -5
I suppose it technically began in Season 3 like Esmeralda put it. Although I would argue that her selfish egomaniacal self didn't really begin to take the centre part of her personality until Season 5. I say Season 5, when Cole came back. One lie does not mean a character has suddenly gone downhill, it's just a mistake they've made. Phoebe still cared about innocents in Season 3 and 4 (and maybe still in 5 but I'd have to rewatch it). I would say there were signs in seasons 3/4, but even while queen she still wanted to save that innocent, I don't think it was truly until season 5 and Cole came back that really set her off into selfishness. She started going downhill in "Sleuthing With the Enemy". Then she tripped and started falling a$$ over head in the second half of season 4. Then she finally landed face first into a stinking bog around season 5. And she merrily splashed around in it until the show ended. I agree with all of you guys. For me, although Phoebe did become more annoying and selfish in Season 3, I could forgive her for it because I like to think of Cole as her first true love and love makes us do ridiculous things at times. She was still quite young and immature, when you think of it, and did show genuine remorse for faking his death and lying to her family. She went back up in my estimation at the start of Season 4 thanks to friendly, caring concern for Paige (unlike Piper, who was standoffish and short-tempered). As from 'Black as Cole' she started to wind me up again with her renewed insistence that Cole was a "victim". Such nonsense! Cole was never a victim in my eyes, not as Belthazor at least. The way the writers tried to absolve Cole of any of his past evils by making Belthazor sound like a demon who had possessed the human Cole was infuriating. No, no, no! As far as I'm concerned, "Belthazor" was simply Cole's demonic name. Still I shouldn't have been that surprised at this, as by the end of Season 4 she couldn't even admit to her own mistakes such as, er... willingly becoming Queen of the Underworld. Again, the Seer's potion and her "demonic pregnancy" were used as get-out-of-jail-free cards which I just didn't buy. She knew exactly what she was doing. I hated her in 'A Witch's Tail', and for most of early Season 5, for this reason. Not that I'm defending Cole, but I hate that she never owned her sh*t and succeeded in having everyone feel sorry for her ('make me a vanquishing potion for him, Paige!'). She wasn't so bad in late Season 5, except I didn't like her with Jason and found them exasperating together. Same goes for Season 6 and Season 8 with her bitter, self-entitled, 'where's-my-daughter' routine. Oddly, I didn't mind her in Season 7 - well except for her "relationship" with Leslie. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:55:59 GMT -5
She started going downhill in "Sleuthing With the Enemy". Then she tripped and started falling a$$ over head in the second half of season 4. Then she finally landed face first into a stinking bog around season 5. And she merrily splashed around in it until the show ended. So true! Looking back, a part of me wonders if Prue and Paige actually benefited from not being in a long-term relationship for most of their runs on the show. I can't help but notice that a lot of what went wrong with Piper and Phoebe's characters can be traced back to their relationships with Leo and Cole. Piper's normal life whining really started around the time she got engaged to Leo, while Phoebe's selfishness very much started when she met Cole. On the flip-side, Andy died after only one season, and Henry didn't appear until the final season, so Prue and Paige spent a much larger portion of the show single (or at least not in a huge, serious relationship) than Piper and Phoebe did. It seems that the writers were incapable of writing the sisters in long-term relationships without making them completely insufferable and having their entire storyline revolve around the relationship. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 14:27:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind someone explaining why ONE lie means a character's downfall. It was a stupid, irresponsible thing to do considering how dangerous Cole was, but it doesn't mean it destroyed her character. It just means she made a mistake, that she's flawed (and can anyone say they would have done differently? That they would have had the courage to admit they let a dangerous demon run loose?) But unfortunately that was just the first of many incidents. Had it just been one time, I may think differently. But Phoebe continues to be irresponsible when it comes to Cole in season 3- most notably when she destroyed the power stripping potion out of spite and let him go free, despite having good reason to believe he was a danger to innocents. It's a while since I've watched season 4, but as far as I remember, I think Phoebe generally picks up again in the first half... but then things go downhill rapidly in the second. I wouldn't necessarily condone her actions in "Sleuthing" either way, but knowing what comes later certainly puts it in an even worse light. With Phoebe, her worst issues are usually centered around putting her boyfriends/relationship issues before her sisters and innocents. "Sleuthing" was probably the first time we saw that happen; but I'm afraid it was far from the last. |
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 14:44:33 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind someone explaining why ONE lie means a character's downfall. It was a stupid, irresponsible thing to do considering how dangerous Cole was, but it doesn't mean it destroyed her character. It just means she made a mistake, that she's flawed (and can anyone say they would have done differently? That they would have had the courage to admit they let a dangerous demon run loose?) But unfortunately that was just the first of many incidents. Had it just been one time, I may think differently. But Phoebe continues to be irresponsible when it comes to Cole in season 3- most notably when she destroyed the power stripping potion out of spite and let him go free, despite having good reason to believe he was a danger to innocents. It's a while since I've watched season 4, but as far as I remember, I think Phoebe generally picks up again in the first half... but then things go downhill rapidly in the second. I wouldn't necessarily condone her actions in "Sleuthing" either way, but knowing what comes later certainly puts it in an even worse light. With Phoebe, her worst issues are usually centered around putting her boyfriends/relationship issues before her sisters and innocents. "Sleuthing" was probably the first time we saw that happen; but I'm afraid it was far from the last. |
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 27, 2016 7:10:07 GMT -5
In Sleuthing With the Enemy Phoebe hasn't to bee loyal only to her sisters, but also to Cole, which killed the Triad also, not only but also, for their
I understand Phoebe's lie, she is in love, is confused by the discovery, she tries, without thinking, to take time, she has even to understand the depth of feeling that prevented her from killing Belthazor
I've said, my judgment is that Phoebe's characters evolution is very realistic: the magic gave a purpose to her reckless youth, devoid of goals and chaotic
The magic helped Phoebe to grow, gave her self-confidence, serenity get a hold of her future but the magic'll bring the greatest pains,the loss of Prue,of Cole, of her baby
In Witch way now, she is ready to abandon it, her thinking is very clear
Paige: You can't be serious, Phoebe, you of all people, you love being a witch.
Phoebe: I know I do, but I...
Paige: But what? What has changed?
Phoebe: Oh, I don't know, I became queen of the Underworld and nearly died carrying baby Lucifer. That's what changed, Paige.
Piper: Paige, it's just that we've been doing this a lot longer than you have, and I'm not trying to discount all the good that we've done or that we could do. But at the same time I'm not gonna minimise the costs. Paige, I can't get pregnant because of what we do.
Paige: You guys are only seeing the bad. What about all the wonder of being witches, the stuff you introduced me to in the first place. You're gonna let all that go?
Phoebe: Paige, it doesn't balance out anymore. And after everything that we've lost, it doesn't seem worth it
It's not true that Phoebe doesn't care of the innocents,she takes a break from magic, devoting herself to her job with the illusion of being still useful to someone and subsequent events, Gideon, the Avatars, could turn her away definitively if Drake didn't come in her life
IMO, Phoebe's breaking point from her past self is when she decides to marry Cole
She isn't sure, she hasn't doubt about their love, she is full of doubts of the future,of what their life'ld be but she accepts, almost driven by a sense of duty, after he lost his powers
It 'a choice for which she asks for help without receiving: Paige is freshly in her life, Piper knows the depth of her love and she is not dominated by Phoebe's fears,so for Piperld be difficult to understand: Prue'ld be perfect, she certainly would give her the right motivation for putting off without offending Cole
Other mistake, the final one, to be scared by the Seer: as Cole, she'd have to run to her sisters, ask for their help to save Cole, the baby and herself, suffered from poisoning
Again,she decides alone, Paige hates Cole, Piper is facing the news of her sterility:Phoebe believes, in good faith and with the same Cole's arrogance, she'ld manage even such a situation and try to do it, with bad results
Again, Prue'ld have been decisive, Piper is too fragile, yet, to have a leading role, Paige is almost a stranger
It's an important subplot of Charmed: every time the bond between the sisters is not working, disasters occur
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Post by sol on Jan 27, 2016 17:10:33 GMT -5
A subplot very important
If these events had occurred with Prue alive ... they'ld not have occurred
Prue'ld give a negative opinion on the marriage and Phoebe'ld listen to her, she was very uncertain
The Seer'ld not be able to flatter Cole with the vision of his mighty son and contaminate Phoebe with a black wedding
The sisters'ld think of a spell to cancel the Source's powers
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 27, 2016 19:34:35 GMT -5
HI, everyone, from when did Phoebe's character start to go downhill? Name concrete episodes/seasons. Was there, according to you, a trigger for her annoying behaviour? Or do you think she started to change out of the blue? I'll post my reasons later. Still looking for *your* reasons, Esperanzaa! |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 27, 2016 19:36:01 GMT -5
In Sleuthing With the Enemy Phoebe hasn't to bee loyal only to her sisters, but also to Cole, which killed the Triad also, not only but also, for their I understand Phoebe's lie, she is in love, is confused by the discovery, she tries, without thinking, to take time, she has even to understand the depth of feeling that prevented her from killing Belthazor I've said, my judgment is that Phoebe's characters evolution is very realistic: the magic gave a purpose to her reckless youth, devoid of goals and chaotic The magic helped Phoebe to grow, gave her self-confidence, serenity get a hold of her future but the magic'll bring the greatest pains,the loss of Prue,of Cole, of her baby In Witch way now, she is ready to abandon it, her thinking is very clear Paige: You can't be serious, Phoebe, you of all people, you love being a witch.
Phoebe: I know I do, but I...
Paige: But what? What has changed?
Phoebe: Oh, I don't know, I became queen of the Underworld and nearly died carrying baby Lucifer. That's what changed, Paige.
Piper: Paige, it's just that we've been doing this a lot longer than you have, and I'm not trying to discount all the good that we've done or that we could do. But at the same time I'm not gonna minimise the costs. Paige, I can't get pregnant because of what we do.
Paige: You guys are only seeing the bad. What about all the wonder of being witches, the stuff you introduced me to in the first place. You're gonna let all that go?
Phoebe: Paige, it doesn't balance out anymore. And after everything that we've lost, it doesn't seem worth it
It's not true that Phoebe doesn't care of the innocents,she takes a break from magic, devoting herself to her job with the illusion of being still useful to someone and subsequent events, Gideon, the Avatars, could turn her away definitively if Drake didn't come in her life IMO, Phoebe's breaking point from her past self is when she decides to marry Cole She isn't sure, she hasn't doubt about their love, she is full of doubts of the future,of what their life'ld be but she accepts, almost driven by a sense of duty, after he lost his powers It 'a choice for which she asks for help without receiving: Paige is freshly in her life, Piper knows the depth of her love and she is not dominated by Phoebe's fears,so for Piperld be difficult to understand: Prue'ld be perfect, she certainly would give her the right motivation for putting off without offending Cole Other mistake, the final one, to be scared by the Seer: as Cole, she'd have to run to her sisters, ask for their help to save Cole, the baby and herself, suffered from poisoning Again,she decides alone, Paige hates Cole, Piper is facing the news of her sterility:Phoebe believes, in good faith and with the same Cole's arrogance, she'ld manage even such a situation and try to do it, with bad results Again, Prue'ld have been decisive, Piper is too fragile, yet, to have a leading role, Paige is almost a stranger It's an important subplot of Charmed: every time the bond between the sisters is not working, disasters occur Extremely good analysis, Erika Marie - makes the whole thing make a whole lot more sense. |
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Post by esperanzaa on Jan 28, 2016 18:47:55 GMT -5
HI, pretty interesting to read all the opinions. To be honest, I have never considered "Sleuthing with the enemy" as the start of the downhill, simply because I've always thought that she did that out of love, which eventually can be forgiven, though didn't like the fact that she lied to her sisters. For me the downhill started when she got the job at Bay Mirror, and became a famous columnist, she just became too career-orientated and too confident (in the negative sense), that just completely destroyed the sweetness she had earlier. In my opinion, the character of the other sisters did not change that much during the series because
Prue was always the strong and most caring and protective about her family
Piper always a little whiny
and, imo, Paige's character did also not change much if we, e.g, compare S4 to S8.
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And we have ourselves a winner.