When did Phoebe's character start to go downhill?

[heartofempathy]

Jun 24, 2019 16:41:46 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Jun 24, 2019 15:07:39 GMT -5 mute90 said:

For me, what came after Long Live the Queen was the problem.

I can see problems before then, but I consider them part of an interesting story. At the end of Bride and Gloom (Season 3), Phoebe is already worried about how things will go between her and Cole. He's going to fall and she's going to fall with him. She pushes aside that worry to be with him, but that is the path it leads her down (and was leading her down since she first met him.) I thought that was interesting, and it echoed the mistakes of Phoebe's past self in Pardon My Past(Season 2). In the end, she differs from her past self by choosing good over evil and her family over Cole. She comes back. That's all great. It's what comes after that is so disappointing. Phoebe doesn't really face consequences for what she did. She doesn't work to make up for it. They wrote it like rejecting Cole was all she needed to do and they never had her deal with herself. This refusal to deal with her own problems and become better just made her come off as arrogant and self-righteous.

As an example, Supernatural had the story of a character going downhill, turning evil, and coming back from it. The difference: His brother didn't trust him in the episodes that followed. He didn't trust himself. He was reminded of what he did. Other people found out what he did and attacked him. He gave his life to fix what he'd broken. There were actual consequences. There was admittance of guilt: "I know how messed up I am. The problem's not the demon blood. What I did - I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything. The problem is me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me."

I wanted that for Phoebe. The problem wasn't that they brought her down. It was that they didn't bring her back up again. They brought Cole back just to use him as a scapegoat and somehow made Phoebe even crazier in her relationships.

I'm kind of torn with the evil Phoebe story. On the one hand, I think it irreparably damaged her character, but on the other, I was captivated when watching it. It's such a massive screw up on her part, and the whole thing was so dark and creepy. Throw in Cole's increasingly abusive behavior and the idea of a stolen fetus, and it's morbidly fascinating.

A part of me wouldn't change a lot of it, but as you said, I do wish Phoebe had truly come to terms with and answered for what she did. I remember the Phoebe of season 1 talking about how she broke up with Clay because he was a bad influence on her, and Prue looking so proud of her. It was a much smaller example of Phoebe taking a negative situation and getting herself out of it, knowing it wouldn't lead to anything good for her and that she had to grow up.

She had massive growth potential from the queen of the underworld storyline. Sort of like all her growth up until that point after becoming a witch was just preparation for the reflection and atonement she'd have to undergo after her being evil. She could have reexamined everything about her life and how she was living, and come out the other side as a changed, whole person. But instead, she just lived in denial and never addressed any of it. 

I don’t think phoebe has ever really been effected by evil TrueType, looking back at the Bride and the Gloom when the sisters were turned evil. Phoebe was morally still the same and even before the spell was reverse she seemed to have a sense of morality but she just didn’t care. It could be that phoebe is neutral due to her nexus connection. She could touch the book because she wanted to, phoebe believed she was evil on season 4-5 , it was her fear . My theory is phoebe always knew her flaws and how to change them she just Didn’t care. She got her premonitions back and went on doing the same exact thing that got them talented from her

[rebooted]

After watching Charmed Again Part 1 and seeing how positive Phoebe stayed after Prues death and her determination to get revenge from the Source and welcome Paige into the family...

...I think to then get married to the Source, have his child and lose it all is psychologically so hard to deal with.

Just reflecting on my own set backs, its totally understandable her wanting to be a selfish mermaid and witchcraft being an obligation. Feeling disappointed in herself about how naïve she was that things were going to get better. When in fact the height of her character was only at the beginning of the show.

For me, Phoebes character is the transitional one from young adulthood to adulthood and understanding that life's realities are quiet simply crap. So I guess, go out and enjoy life, enjoy sex, fame and being selfish because a bus (driven by a demon) could hit you tomorrow. That's just life.

[Aaeiyn]

Oct 17, 2021 21:41:02 GMT -5 rebooted said:

...I think to then get married to the Source, have his child and lose it all is psychologically so hard to deal with.

Just reflecting on my own set backs, its totally understandable her wanting to be a selfish mermaid and witchcraft being an obligation. Feeling disappointed in herself about how naïve she was that things were going to get better. When in fact the height of her character was only at the beginning of the show.

For me, Phoebes character is the transitional one from young adulthood to adulthood and understanding that life's realities are quiet simply crap. So I guess, go out and enjoy life, enjoy sex, fame and being selfish because a bus (driven by a demon) could hit you tomorrow. That's just life.

I keep hearing this, and I don't agree with it, at all. Because she became resistent in helping to save the world from evil before this. I already wrote a thread about Phoebe's downfall (which you did comment on, but I digress), here.

Jan 26, 2016 9:52:33 GMT -5 Nimue said:

I wouldn't mind someone explaining why ONE lie means a character's downfall. It was a stupid, irresponsible thing to do considering how dangerous Cole was, but it doesn't mean it destroyed her character. It just means she made a mistake, that she's flawed (and can anyone say they would have done differently? That they would have had the courage to admit they let a dangerous demon run loose?)

I have a different take on Phoebe lying, and it has nothing to do with Phoebe's downfall. I actually think it's normal for Phoebe to lie, to her sisters. Evidence of this is seen as far back as S1. I don't find it abnormal for Phoebe to lie, to her own sisters. Earliest record of Phoebe lying is 1x20 The Power of Two. Phoebe didn't plan on telling her sisters (mostly Prue) about it, until she was outed by the ghost of Alcatraz because she knew Prue would go ballistic about it, and Phoebe didn't want to deal with any of it.  Sounds similar to lying about Cole 'cause she knows her sisters were going to go ballistic about it, so she'll lie to save herself the drama.  I don't see the difference here, personally.  She even lied about (or at least tried to cover up the fact that she) casting a "smart spell" in 2x03 The Painted World. She was (also) having a hard time dealing with the fact that she didn't have a college degree and wasn't interested in having a "pep talk" with her sisters (mostly Piper) in the same episode, in this scene, here.  Phoebe is constantly avoiding and/or dodging her own sisters with w/e she feels like avoiding/dodging them with.  Even as something as small as needing to wear glasses in 2x17 How to Make a Quilt Out of Americans.  All of these scenes, moments, episodes, etc., are long before S3E8 "Sleuthing with the Enemy" came along.

Even though this next part is AFTER S3E8 "Sleuthing with the Enemy", it makes you wonder how long Phoebe has been in contact with their father because the last we see of him is S1E3 "Thank You For Not Morphing", but he makes a return in S3E10 "We all Scream for Ice Cream".  Once again, this is yet ANOTHER moment in time, that Phoebe is keeping secrets/lying to her sisters about something.  This time it's about the fact that she's kept in contact with him, all of this time.  Are we seeing a pattern, here?

IMO, it's completely normal for Phoebe to lie, keep secrets and/or not tell her sisters, everything.

---

My pivotal point is S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe", when she began doubting to marry Cole. S4E15 "Marry-Go-Round" being a bridezilla and treating Paige like absolute garbage, when Phoebe was the one who was more open and bubbly towards Paige, the first time. In S4E16 "The Fifth Halliwheel" still being against Paige and wasn't really nor truly interested in saving Karen. Phoebe was more interested on how well she wrote out some advice. S4E17 "Saving Private Leo" she wasn't interested in stopping killer ghosts. S4E18 "Bite Me" she's not being there for Piper and just ignoring Paige telling her that she should. S4E19 "We're Off to See the Wizard" she was more interested in having power than being with Cole (though, this is absolutely in line with her character. I just didn't like how she used Cole, to get there). S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" she blames the tonic for her making bad decisions, when I don't believe that, at all and agree with Cole that Phoebe willingly chose to be Queen of the Underworld. S4E21 "Womb Raider" she claims the baby to not be her's because she can't fathom that she has evil tendencies. S4E22 "Witch Way, Now?" refused to save Cole. S5E1-2 (A Witch's Tail, Pt 1 & 2) refused to save/help Mylie and was more interested in pushing her divorce through and didn't care about Piper's struggles. You see how it just keeps spiraling and never fully recovers? Personally, I think her change was sudden and gradually got worse and worse, as the series went on.  It's like after they vanquished the OG Source in S4E13 "Charmed & Dangerous", it's like the show "vanquished" our beloved Phoebe, as well.

Also, I'll never understand the hate Phoebe gets in letting Cole go, when Prue attempted to do something similar with Rodriguez in S1E22 "Deja Vu All Over Again".  Both Prue and Phoebe gave Rodriguez and Cole a chance to be good people, until Rodriguez messed things up, but Cole didn't until after Phoebe was already a crank.  Another favorite of mine is "well Cole is dangerous!"  So is Rodriguez!  Where's the Prue hate for that moment?  What's the difference, here?  Even so, with or without Rodriguez and/or Cole, the girls lives aren't in any less danger than they are, already.  Time and time, again, after both Rodriguez and Cole, there were still demons out there trying to go after their lives and didn't need either Rodriguez nor Cole to help inspire them, to make those decisions.  I don't see how keeping either Rodriguez nor Cole alive is "harming them more".  If anything, it's helping the Charmed Ones, if they chose to be their ally instead of an enemy.

EDIT: Phoebe doesn't fool me.  IK she has a dark side, to her.  She's just too afraid to admit that she does and is wrong, and that's what pisses me off.  S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" is the REAL Phoebe.  I don't believe for a moment that she was influenced by her "baby", at all.  I still like S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" because (at least) that was the real Phoebe.  'Bout one of the few episodes from late S4, that I like/enjoy.

[codebox]

Honestly this varies depending on how you see it, Season 3 or Season 4B are good contenders, even Season 5. Personally for me Phoebe started to become an issue in Season 3, particularly after All Halliwell's Eve beginning with Sight Unseen. While calling it her "downfall" would be debatable it was the start where the seeds of her issues were planted. My main sentiment for holding this claim is two things her overall demeanor and disposition. Prior to this episode Phoebe had always been the one most involve with having magical intitution, in that she was the one who could tell when something was wrong (and Prue of course too with her usual skepticism) but in this episode she's completely ditzy starting from her gesture when Prue mentions about locking the door Phoebe goes "mostly" with a ditzy expression, as if she's a bit airheeaded about the demon situation. There's also how she reacts about Cole, when prior she was the one who called Prue out whenever she believed her love interests (Bane and Brendan) were involved with evil.

The look she gives Prue when Prue suspects her trap working specifically designed for demons felt really off, especially when that's not the kind of look she'd give even during their fight scenes in Season 1. Compared Prue/Phoebe fighting in the first few episodes of Season 1 and especially The Power of Two to this scene and her gestures feel completely different. In Power of Two who could tell there was a reasonable conflict based on their body language, but felt natural between the two to have it, in Sight Unseen she looks as if she hates Prue, only to then follow up with a scene where she calls Prue "crazy and not thinking straight" and to me this is where Phoebe started to fall the moment Cole being a demon was brought up in discussion. Because from this point onward it only ever felt her entire motives and personality were just connected to something related to Cole.

She'd barely go a single scene without mentioning him. Even when he wasn't around like Coyote Piper her entire motive until the climax was just about Cole. (While it does lead to the nice scene learning about his backstory, Phoebe basically skips out on Piper's high school reunion with only Prue to support her just to focus on Cole) she even dumps her responsibilities onto Piper in Power Outage and doesn't directly apologize to Prue or Piper about how she treated them. She does grieve about their fight to Cole, but when the sisters are face to face ONLY Piper and Prue apologize for their anger enhanced insults. You get the point. Sure there are times where Phoebe can be herself such as still going to college and her going "demon" at the beginning of Power Outage or her speech to Prue at the end of Just Harried (which she was admittedly good in), but even the former gets marred by the fact that not only was her college progression barely mention, but her graduation was entirely about her and Cole, which felt like it should've been an event that developed the character. From this Phoebe isn't developing from what she wanted to do in Season 1, she's regressing back into what she didn't want.

And this isn't to say Cole can't/shouldn't be a priority to her character, the issue is that he became centralized to her character to the point anytime her old traits came up or had conflict it felt off and almost mean. She's even dismissive of Prue in episodes like "Demon who Came in From the Cold".. And less said about her actions in Exit Strategy and All Hell Breaks Loose the better.

Since so much of Season 3 is Phoebe spent obsessing over Cole a lot of traits that would go to derail the character later on (being self focused, making love life a priority over everything else) would begin to seed here. As her relationship with Cole easily birthed these traits. And while she starts to be a lot more friendly in Season 4A (excluding the pre-funeral scene) after Charmed and Dangerous she regresses back to how she was in Season 3 regarding Cole and is even more dismissive toward Paige than she was with Prue, especially in Fifth Halliwheel and her traits would only get worse with new issues that would recur piling on (Her advice column, which showed how awful it was to her character in Saving Private Leo)

And of course Season 5 she's completely the PhoeME we dislike onwards. Only obsesses over work, men, babies and herself. This is why I always regard Season 3 as when she went downhill because despite 4 and 5 being bigger regressions Season 3 started the seeds for said regression and her character obviously had a drastic change between All Halliwell's Eve - Sight Unseen.

[Aaeiyn]

Oct 27, 2021 23:31:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Prue mentions about locking the door Phoebe goes "mostly" with a ditzy expression, as if she's a bit airheeaded about the demon situation.

Phoebe acted like a complete "ditz" (to use your words) regarding Clay, as well, despite Prue providing crytal clear evidence. This is back in S1E11 Feats of Clay. But, Phoebe was still about innocents, in both S1 and S3. When she became less about the innocents is her downfall, IMO. Sure, some of that came back in S4E20 Long Live the Queen, but that episode becomes moot with all the other times she resisted helping innocents.

To me, that change was sudden and has nothing to do with S3. Even in S4a, she loves Cole, but they still did a lot of good, together. Her sudden change and no longer taking responsibility for her own actions is what drives me up the wall. At least in S3, she took responsibility for lying, and her own actions.

[codebox]

Oct 28, 2021 0:02:10 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Oct 27, 2021 23:31:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Prue mentions about locking the door Phoebe goes "mostly" with a ditzy expression, as if she's a bit airheeaded about the demon situation.

Phoebe acted like a complete "ditz" (to use your words) regarding Clay, as well, despite Prue providing crytal clear evidence. This is back in S1E11 Feats of Clay. But, Phoebe was still about innocents, in both S1 and S3. When she became less about the innocents is her downfall, IMO. Sure, some of that came back in S4E20 Long Live the Queen, but that episode becomes moot with all the other times she resisted helping innocents.

To me, that change was sudden and has nothing to do with S3. Even in S4a, she loves Cole, but they still did a lot of good, together. Her sudden change and no longer taking responsibility for her own actions is what drives me up the wall. At least in S3, she took responsibility for lying, and her own actions.

When it comes to Clay Phoebe's demeanor is very similar. However its also important to note that one could say she knew Prue was right, butt chose to deny it, as when Clay goes to confront the Urn Phoebe does tell him off for how right Prue was about him. I wouldn't call this ditzy, but denial. She wanted Clay to change, and didn't want to see him as the person he was. Whereas in Sight Unseen she comes off as if she's always just a clueless ditz. 

Also Long Live the Queen is marred by other issues that can't really see me justifying Phoebe as "back to her roots". She didn't apologize for her actions in Power Outage and while they did do a lot of good Phoebe always had the tendency to push him back into doing back. Like when he was manipulated by the Brotherhood to kill that witch at the end of Exit Strategy, only for her to doom him and anyone he could hurt with his powers by smashing the potion. Sure he did kill someone even if he was tricked into doing so and to be fair Cole should've communicated this. But Phoebe isn't any better. And while her care for innocents is there its played as secondary to her relationship with Cole which takes up the focus of her character. Still these were only issues that planted seeds as beyond Charmed and Dangerous she just changes entirely. 

She also was irresponsible in how nonchalant she was when losing her baby in Womb Raider or in general how dismsissive she is of Paige in Marry-Go-Round and Fifth Halliwheel. 

[Aaeiyn]

Oct 28, 2021 0:08:54 GMT -5 codebox said:

Like when he was manipulated by the Brotherhood to kill that witch at the end of Exit Strategy, only for her to doom him and anyone he could hurt with his powers by smashing the potion. Sure he did kill someone even if he was tricked into doing so and to be fair Cole should've communicated this. But Phoebe isn't any better. And while her care for innocents is there its played as secondary to her relationship with Cole which takes up the focus of her character. Still these were only issues that planted seeds as beyond Charmed and Dangerous she just changes entirely. 

She also was irresponsible in how nonchalant she was when losing her baby in Womb Raider or in general how dismsissive she is of Paige in Marry-Go-Round and Fifth Halliwheel. 

Don't even get me started on the brotherhood episodes. I hate those episodes, and it doesn't really have anything to do with Phoebe's character but just the writers' ways of trying to complicate the Phoebe & Cole relationship, for no reason -_- And, like you said, prior:

Oct 27, 2021 23:31:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Honestly this varies depending on how you see it

I don't think there were any planted seeds, in S3 because I can correlate actions prior, and how similar they are. IK your infers sound better than her sudden change, but I really do feel like the show was at a loss, in what to do after vanquishing the OG Source in S4E13 Charmed and Dangerous and wanted to continue complicating the Phoebe & Cole relationship, AGAIN. There's no correlation in why Phoebe began rejecting her Charmed duties in S4b, none. Not even her love for Cole would stop her from protecting innocents (in S3-S4a), so why was she all of sudden rejecting to save innocents in S4b? This continues to seep through in later seasons (S5-S8). Then, they wanted to make her experience with Cole as to why she began rejecting magic (S4E22-S8), but I don't buy it because she was rejecting it, before (S4E17 Saving Private Leo). And, IK that she didn't actually apologize in Power Outage, but I still don't think that has anything to do with her downfall nor correlates with anything because she doesn't have to apologize right then and there (as we can see, she apologized about lying about killing Cole, AFTER the episode, she actually did it). Phoebe (nor any of the girls) doesn't need to apologize right then and there, for everything that they do. Phoebe would still take responsibility for her actions.

And, I agree with you, on your S4b examples because my "downfall" for Phoebe begins in S4b (particularly Three Faces of Phoebe). She began not taking responsibility for her own actions and was no longer interested in saving/protecting innocents, and it became all about her. I still don't think her S3 persona was all about her because she was still about the innocents and was feeling guilty for her lies, unlike her not feeling guilty about lying about other things via Alcatraz, Glasses, Smart Spell, etc. She truly felt guilty about it. Then, she was no longer feeling guilty about anything, anymore, really and was more interested, in herself, as seasons go by.

I think OG Source symbolizes "the old Phoebe", upon his vanquish, "old Phoebe" "vanquishes", too.

EDIT: Phoebe was my favorite character/sister from S1-S4E13. After that, she's became one of my least favorites. Then, I began liking Piper, as I've always liked Piper and never disliked her. I like Paige, too, but I digress LOL

[Andrew]

Season 4b was where her slide downhill really began, to me, but what cemented it was season 5, when Alyssa became an executive producer on the show. From there on, Phoebe was never really at fault, not even for having deliberately chosen to side with evil (so much for that stupid 48-hour window from “Charmed Again” that says once you pick good or evil, that’s what you’re stuck with), not for basically saying “screw the innocents, Imma go be a mermaid”, not for… Well, we’ll be here for hours if I start listing everything she got a free pass for. Heck, they even brought Cole back from the dead just so he could be the scapegoat for all her terrible decisions. She drove him crazy, drove him to suicide, and got everyone to feel sorry for her. I just… Wow.

Let’s just say, the PhoeMe nickname didn’t come from nowhere.

[forbuss]

In my opinion season three was the real start. I think season three was like walking towards the hill but not going down it yet.

I think I have a different opinion than most on this board. I enjoyed seasons three and four but could definitely see the writing on the wall of where it was headed. However, I don't believe season three or four was down the hill to the point where Phoebe couldn't walk back up it.

Season 5 was sortof the "point of no return", although we did see glimpses of "classic" Phoebe in all other seasons, however few and far between that was (particularly season 7).

[Emmett]

I think S3 is the start of destroying Phoebe's character, but the back-half of S4 finished the job where she went to a place of no return. But, I do agree, we had some glimpses of the classic Phoebs we all loved, like in Season 7 but they were so minimal.

[codebox]

Oct 28, 2021 16:42:15 GMT -5 forbuss said:

In my opinion season three was the real start. I think season three was like walking towards the hill but not going down it yet.

I think I have a different opinion than most on this board. I enjoyed seasons three and four but could definitely see the writing on the wall of where it was headed. However, I don't believe season three or four was down the hill to the point where Phoebe couldn't walk back up it.

Season 5 was sortof the "point of no return", although we did see glimpses of "classic" Phoebe in all other seasons, however few and far between that was (particularly season 7).

I like to cement Season 7 as Phoebe at her worst, where all of her problems became the worst (especially in regards of using work to ignore her duties) however I wouldn't lie and say I agree with you at the same time. Her moments with Drake and even the finale showed some signs Old Phoebs could exist if the writing allowed her. But then its followed by episodes like Freaky Phoebe, Scry Hard and A Call to Arms. 

[BriannaWarren2.0]

For me personally it was when she got the job at the Bay Mirror, I hated that job for Phoebe, it did suit her in my opinion, I didn't even see the point in it other than making Alyssa's character famous. 

She could have stuck with her psychology specialising in criminology later on since there are plenty of jobs that she could have undertook after she had finished, she could have been able to help Paige (since one of the jobs you can get with that degree is in Social Work) or be able to help Cole (since you can help with legal issues) or she would be able to look at crime scene photographs legally, therefore Darryl didn't need to hide anything, if she decided to take down that route. 

However I think she would do best in a legal setting, we all know how much she loved jury duty, so maybe that could have been the place for her. 

[CharmedFaith]

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

[Andrew]

Oct 29, 2021 0:28:44 GMT -5 BriannaWarren2.0 said:

For me personally it was when she got the job at the Bay Mirror, I hated that job for Phoebe, it did suit her in my opinion, I didn't even see the point in it other than making Alyssa's character famous. 

She could have stuck with her psychology specialising in criminology later on since there are plenty of jobs that she could have undertook after she had finished, she could have been able to help Paige (since one of the jobs you can get with that degree is in Social Work) or be able to help Cole (since you can help with legal issues) or she would be able to look at crime scene photographs legally, therefore Darryl didn't need to hide anything, if she decided to take down that route. 

However I think she would do best in a legal setting, we all know how much she loved jury duty, so maybe that could have been the place for her. 

Ah, yes, that job. The one where we’re told how good Phoebe is at giving advice, but nothing we ever see actually backs that up. The one that seems to exist solely to have Phoebe be famous. The one at the newspaper that didn’t even seem to exist until season 5, when Alyssa became a producer.

Like I said above, 4b might have been when Phoebe started going downhill, to me, but 5 was where that downward slope ended in a cliff.

Oct 29, 2021 19:29:28 GMT -5 CharmedFaith said:

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

You know, it’s either ironic or very appropriate that the episode that started Phoebe’s real slide downhill pretty much did the exact same thing for the Source, as that episode did not treat him kindly. I know it was very disappointing to me, personally, to discover that the so-called “Source of All Evil” was in fact… just some demon. What was it, exactly, that made that guy get to be in charge, when we’ve previously seen much more competent bad guys - and ones who were armed with less generic powers, at that. Though, I suppose that’s a conversation for another thread.

[Aaeiyn]

Honestly, I think there's a difference between Phoebe's downfall, and the show's downfall. And, I think there's a lot of inferring that the show's downfall is "the same" as Phoebe's, and I just don't agree with that, at all.  I understand there's a big following for S1-S2 on this board, but I don't necessarily believe Phoebe's character fell with it.  I don't even think the show "fell" upon S3.  I actually think it got better, but that's just me.

Oct 29, 2021 20:25:59 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Ah, yes, that job. The one where we’re told how good Phoebe is at giving advice, but nothing we ever see actually backs that up. The one that seems to exist solely to have Phoebe be famous. The one at the newspaper that didn’t even seem to exist until season 5, when Alyssa became a producer.

Like I said above, 4b might have been when Phoebe started going downhill, to me, but 5 was where that downward slope ended in a cliff.

Pretty much. And, IMO tried to be "the next Prue" by her character being more of "the center" and/or "focus", of the series. Basically, turning Phoebe into another "Mary Sue" -_-

Personally, I think Paige should've been the advice columnist and not Phoebe. Re-watching earlier seasons, and Phoebe isn't very good in talking with innocents. Phoebe's always scaring them. Paige, on the other hand, actually inspires them and makes them less scared. See S5E1 A Witch's Tail Pt 1, S5E4 Siren's Song, S6E5 Love's a Witch, S6E7 Soul Survivor, S6E15 The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell, S7E4 Charrrmed!, S8E7 The Lost Picture Show, etc. I'm sure there's more, but Paige deals with advice much better than Phoebe, IMO.

[Andrew]

Oct 29, 2021 20:43:39 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Personally, I think Paige should've been the advice columnist and not Phoebe. Re-watching earlier seasons, and Phoebe isn't very good in talking with innocents. Phoebe's always scaring them. Paige, on the other hand, actually inspires them and makes them less scared. See S5E1 A Witch's Tail Pt 1, S5E4 Siren's Song, S6E5 Love's a Witch, S6E7 Soul Survivor, S6E15 The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell, S7E4 Charrrmed!, S8E7 The Lost Picture Show, etc. I'm sure there's more, but Paige deals with advice much better than Phoebe, IMO.

Okay, yes, now see, that would have made more sense. Phoebe could have gone from volunteering at the hospital to working at Social Services (the hospital came from nowhere just for that plot, so she could just as easily get a different job offscreen). Heck, we barely have any idea what all the classes she took at Berkeley were, so why not have some of them be for training she would need as a social worker? If her character had stayed consistent from episode one onward, that would have been (to me) a totally believable career path to take.

As for Paige… No one who cared about the people she was trying to help as much as she did when she was introduced could have simply dropped the job like that. Also, aside from Glen, she never seemed to have all that many friends, which does make sense given what we know of her high school life. She probably hung out with a wild crowd, and after her parents died and she started trying to turn her life around, she wouldn’t have been any “fun” to them, and she wouldn’t have wanted to be tempted by the alcohol (and probably drugs) that they’d have around them, so they’d just go their separate ways. It would have been too long since she’d had any real friends for her to know how to make new ones all that easily, not that she’d be able to until she got to college, anyway - everyone in school already knew her as either the hard-drinking party girl or “that girl with the dead parents”, after all. She could get a job at the campus newspaper to help make ends meet, reasoning that the numerous mistakes she’d made in her life meant she could at least tell people what not to do. She’d get good at it as she rediscovered her confidence, and after graduation could get a job at the Bay Mirror, since she’d have years worth of material as a resume.

Heck, you want to tie it all together? Have one of the sisters - it wouldn’t even really matter which one - write in to ask for advice in dealing with the whole Phoebe-Cole-Prue situation near the end of season 3.

[BriannaWarren2.0]

Oct 29, 2021 20:25:59 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Oct 29, 2021 0:28:44 GMT -5 BriannaWarren2.0 said:

For me personally it was when she got the job at the Bay Mirror, I hated that job for Phoebe, it did suit her in my opinion, I didn't even see the point in it other than making Alyssa's character famous. 

She could have stuck with her psychology specialising in criminology later on since there are plenty of jobs that she could have undertook after she had finished, she could have been able to help Paige (since one of the jobs you can get with that degree is in Social Work) or be able to help Cole (since you can help with legal issues) or she would be able to look at crime scene photographs legally, therefore Darryl didn't need to hide anything, if she decided to take down that route. 

However I think she would do best in a legal setting, we all know how much she loved jury duty, so maybe that could have been the place for her. 

Ah, yes, that job. The one where we’re told how good Phoebe is at giving advice, but nothing we ever see actually backs that up. The one that seems to exist solely to have Phoebe be famous. The one at the newspaper that didn’t even seem to exist until season 5, when Alyssa became a producer.

Like I said above, 4b might have been when Phoebe started going downhill, to me, but 5 was where that downward slope ended in a cliff.

Oct 29, 2021 19:29:28 GMT -5 CharmedFaith said:

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

You know, it’s either ironic or very appropriate that the episode that started Phoebe’s real slide downhill pretty much did the exact same thing for the Source, as that episode did not treat him kindly. I know it was very disappointing to me, personally, to discover that the so-called “Source of All Evil” was in fact… just some demon. What was it, exactly, that made that guy get to be in charge, when we’ve previously seen much more competent bad guys - and ones who were armed with less generic powers, at that. Though, I suppose that’s a conversation for another thread.

It is so obvious that what was going on, let's be honest they probably got that idea from Carrie Bradshaw (Sex And The City), the difference is that Carrie is at least understandable over Phoebe wanting a 9-5 desk job, which I never truely saw for her, even psychology was out of left field but I can understand that over her being an advice columnist, I could see Paige wanting to study psychology and then going on to write a book on parenting as someone who has worked with children and teens and she also gets the advantage as someone who was a trouble teen giving two perspectives. 

I am not sure what career I would give Phoebe, apart from working in a metaphysical store, or maybe a bartender in P3 until she decides what she wants to do, however the whole Psychology thing would have been cool if it wasn't a stepping stone for Phoebe to become a celebrity which is why I believe that Paige would have been a better fit for it, she could have worked in a school in San Francisco as a school councillor, helping children like the way she would have liked to be helped, keep Phoebe as the interested one in witchcraft. 

[Elle Em]

Oct 29, 2021 19:29:28 GMT -5 CharmedFaith said:

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

I agree with this. I think her character started to go downhill in early season 3, but she came back from it a few times. She was likable and still herself in some of season 3, and most of early season 4. 

But after the Source vanquish, it's like she's an entirely different character. She's obsessed with getting married, and then obsessed with being a wife. Then she forgets her baby without any trouble (I'll never be convinced it was just evil; I think it was written that way in Womb Raider because at that point the writers were set on getting rid of it), blames Cole entirely for her own decision to become evil, and becomes even more self-centered with her job. 

Season 5 could have been Phoebe's redemption season. The end of A Witch's Tail was a great place for her and Cole. She portrayed a gentle forgiveness to him while still wanting to hold him at a distance, which is entirely fair. Then she could have quit that silly job and focused more on getting back into magic, especially since here I'd have Paige stay as a social worker.

I'd also have Phoebe really grieve her baby and question if it was possible to have saved it. Then of course she has to confront that she chose evil and turned her back on her family. 

And as far as a job goes for her, here's what I'd like to have happen: She and Cole don't see each other much, because he's working on being good on his own after hopefully getting his powers stripped, and they realize they bring out the worst in each other anyway. She gets more into magic, but it isn't enough to distract her. Piper isn't pregnant, so her major storyline in season 5 is that she decides to finally open her restaurant. But she doesn't want to let go of the club just yet, so she asks Phoebe if she'd like to run it for her. I could see Phoebe doing something like this much easier than a lot of jobs, because it's more of her environment than an office, and it would involve a lot of hard work and being around other people. The season would end with her feeling like she can forgive herself for what she's done, and Piper officially gives her the club after successfully opening her own restaurant. 

[Esmeralda]

Oct 31, 2021 6:45:02 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Oct 29, 2021 19:29:28 GMT -5 CharmedFaith said:

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

I agree with this. I think her character started to go downhill in early season 3, but she came back from it a few times. She was likable and still herself in some of season 3, and most of early season 4. 

But after the Source vanquish, it's like she's an entirely different character. She's obsessed with getting married, and then obsessed with being a wife. Then she forgets her baby without any trouble (I'll never be convinced it was just evil; I think it was written that way in Womb Raider because at that point the writers were set on getting rid of it), blames Cole entirely for her own decision to become evil, and becomes even more self-centered with her job. 

Season 5 could have been Phoebe's redemption season. The end of A Witch's Tail was a great place for her and Cole. She portrayed a gentle forgiveness to him while still wanting to hold him at a distance, which is entirely fair. Then she could have quit that silly job and focused more on getting back into magic, especially since here I'd have Paige stay as a social worker.

I'd also have Phoebe really grieve her baby and question if it was possible to have saved it. Then of course she has to confront that she chose evil and turned her back on her family. 

And as far as a job goes for her, here's what I'd like to have happen: She and Cole don't see each other much, because he's working on being good on his own after hopefully getting his powers stripped, and they realize they bring out the worst in each other anyway. She gets more into magic, but it isn't enough to distract her. Piper isn't pregnant, so her major storyline in season 5 is that she decides to finally open her restaurant. But she doesn't want to let go of the club just yet, so she asks Phoebe if she'd like to run it for her. I could see Phoebe doing something like this much easier than a lot of jobs, because it's more of her environment than an office, and it would involve a lot of hard work and being around other people. The season would end with her feeling like she can forgive herself for what she's done, and Piper officially gives her the club after successfully opening her own restaurant. 

Now I think that would've been the perfect way to end Charmed. Had they done that, the Cole-the-Source and Phoebe-Queen-of-the-Underworld wouldn't be my least-favorite story arc.

I also love them ending with those jobs: Paige still the social worker; Piper running her own restaurant (although I'd prefer her running a catering service out of the Manor) and Phoebe running P3. I really think those really are the best occupations for all three.

Best of all, no Twice-Blessed Brat and his lying, whining, murdering brother or Leo-the-Elder/the Avatar/the little errand boy. In my eyes, this would be perfect - and we'd probably be watching Charmed: The Next Generation rather than rolling our eyes at Charmed: The Rip-off.

[Esmeralda]

Oct 31, 2021 6:45:02 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Oct 29, 2021 19:29:28 GMT -5 CharmedFaith said:

Charmed and Dangerous was the end of Phoebe Halliwell imo. After that the character was never the same.

I agree with this. I think her character started to go downhill in early season 3, but she came back from it a few times. She was likable and still herself in some of season 3, and most of early season 4. 

But after the Source vanquish, it's like she's an entirely different character. She's obsessed with getting married, and then obsessed with being a wife. Then she forgets her baby without any trouble (I'll never be convinced it was just evil; I think it was written that way in Womb Raider because at that point the writers were set on getting rid of it), blames Cole entirely for her own decision to become evil, and becomes even more self-centered with her job. 

By the way, I don't think the writers were obsessed with getting rid of the Phoetus - I think that was Kern and Alyssa who wanted Phoebe to hurry up and become the media star and wanted Alyssa to be the true star of Charmed. Funny that the true stars of the four Charmed Ones were Shannen and Holly, but the REAL stars of S4-8 were Julian, Drew and Brian.