When did Phoebe's character start to go downhill?

[Esmeralda]

Had to bump this forward. Five years ago, but I STILL think P3Nathan has the winner!

Jan 26, 2016 8:53:30 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Jan 26, 2016 8:27:08 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

She started going downhill in "Sleuthing With the Enemy".
Then she tripped and started falling a$$ over head in the second half of season 4.
Then she finally landed face first into a stinking bog around season 5.
And she merrily splashed around in it until the show ended.

And we have ourselves a winner.

LOL! I SO miss P3Nathan. He just deleted his account one day during the time when this place was so toxic. I SO wish he'd come back!

[Aaeiyn]

And, I still think S3 Phoebe is still the same Phoebe. I'm re-watching S2E18 Chick Flick, and she's head over heels for Billy, a fictional character. Doesn't seem all that different, to me, with Phoebe being head over heels for Cole. As I've said prior, Phoebe is known to lie/deceive her sisters via Alcatraz, Smart Spell, Glasses, etc. Sleuthing with the Enemy is on par, with her behavior. What's not on par with Phoebe's behavior is S4b via her refusal to save innocents, rejecting magic, not being open to being vulnerable, etc. Phoebe was supposed to be the understanding one especially regarding those who are morally grey via Aviva, Clay, Cole, etc. She became extremely closed off, in S4b and proceeded to remain that way. Sleuthing with the Enemy did not make her closed off nor rejecting to help/save innocents nor magic.

[Prue's Feather]

Oct 31, 2021 15:19:13 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

And, I still think S3 Phoebe is still the same Phoebe. I'm re-watching S2E18 Chick Flick, and she's head over heels for Billy, a fictional character. Doesn't seem all that different, to me, with Phoebe being head over heels for Cole. As I've said prior, Phoebe is known to lie/deceive her sisters via Alcatraz, Smart Spell, Glasses, etc. Sleuthing with the Enemy is on par, with her behavior. What's not on par with Phoebe's behavior is S4b via her refusal to save innocents, rejecting magic, not being open to being vulnerable, etc. Phoebe was supposed to be the understanding one especially regarding those who are morally grey via Aviva, Clay, Cole, etc. She became extremely closed off, in S4b and proceeded to remain that way. Sleuthing with the Enemy did not make her closed off nor rejecting to help/save innocents nor magic.

I think this is a really good analysis, Aaeiyn. Earlier this summer, I may have been more in align with Phoebe’s true downhill moment being in S3, but the part where you say she’s refusing to save innocents, rejecting magic, not being open to being vulnerable starting in S4B... This is truly where the Phoebe we once knew and loved disappears. Thank you for explaining it this way.

[Aaeiyn]

I said earlier in the thread about how, IMO, Phoebe is known to lie/deceive her sisters, for her own benefit. But, it was never at the expense of innocents nor magic.

EDIT: Here's that post.

[Prue's Feather]

Oct 31, 2021 16:28:28 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I said earlier in the thread about how, IMO, Phoebe is known to lie/deceive her sisters, for her own benefit. But, it was never at the expense of innocents nor magic.

EDIT: Here's that post.

Thanks for the share, Aaeiyn. I feel like I’m repeating myself, but I love your analysis on this. Really got me thinking about it all. It’s going to be interesting discussion moving onward with Season 4 in our rewatches.

[Elle Em]

Oct 31, 2021 8:39:38 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

I also love them ending with those jobs: Paige still the social worker; Piper running her own restaurant (although I'd prefer her running a catering service out of the Manor) and Phoebe running P3. I really think those really are the best occupations for all three.

I really like this too. Paige was so passionate about her job, and it helps her hold onto her own identity by keeping it. And Piper running her restaurant or catering out of the Manor seems a lot more true to who she is, and is a nice callback to who she was when we first met her.

As for Phoebe, I like her running P3 because it probably isn't something she thought she'd end up doing. She didn't go to school for this sort of thing, and it was always Piper's club. It also lacks the fairytale of all her career dreams coming true, which I think is good for her. I think she needed to be challenged. But my favorite part of this is that I can picture her taking on the job for Piper, thinking she's just doing it to help out, when she actually starts to like it a lot. It would be a job she never thought to go after that was given to her by her sister and involves a lot of hard work, and yet I think it would really suit her.

[BriannaWarren2.0]

Nov 1, 2021 17:11:19 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Oct 31, 2021 8:39:38 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

I also love them ending with those jobs: Paige still the social worker; Piper running her own restaurant (although I'd prefer her running a catering service out of the Manor) and Phoebe running P3. I really think those really are the best occupations for all three.

I really like this too. Paige was so passionate about her job, and it helps her hold onto her own identity by keeping it. And Piper running her restaurant or catering out of the Manor seems a lot more true to who she is, and is a nice callback to who she was when we first met her.

As for Phoebe, I like her running P3 because it probably isn't something she thought she'd end up doing. She didn't go to school for this sort of thing, and it was always Piper's club. It also lacks the fairytale of all her career dreams coming true, which I think is good for her. I think she needed to be challenged. But my favorite part of this is that I can picture her taking on the job for Piper, thinking she's just doing it to help out, when she actually starts to like it a lot. It would be a job she never thought to go after that was given to her by her sister and involves a lot of hard work, and yet I think it would really suit her.

Also someone as rebellious as Phoebe would enjoy doing that type of job, running P3 would have definitely suited her, however I don't think she was that much into the clubbing scene but it is something I can see her doing. 

[patito]

I think the character begins to change in S4B, somehow she goes to not wanting to be "a wife" to bridezilla. This second half seems hastily thrown together too, so it might not just be a Phoebe thing. But by the time S5 rolls around she's a completely different character.

[Aaeiyn]

You know, I used to dislike Phoebe from S4b-S8 but now (after some real life experience) I understand her better, and why she did what she did. So much so, that Phoebe is close to one of my favorite characters, again. And, Piper has become one of my least favorite characters.

After re-watching S4E15 Marry-Go-Round during our re-watches, one line stuck out to me, in why Phoebe did what she did. She just wanted to make Cole happy and give him the best wedding, as it wasn't really about her. I can definitely relate to that. Was the whole bridezilla thing "off putting", yes. However, I still found it sweet that all of the work she was trying to do wasn't for her but for Cole.

Next, we get to S4E22 "Witch Way, Now?", where I didn't understand why she began rejecting Cole, until it dawned on me. It wasn't about that she didn't love him, but her addiction to dark magic/easily seduced into "being evil". She began to cold turkey out any influence (including Cole) to help her grow away from that. I don't believe she thinks Cole is evil. I believe she thinks their relationship is doomed, and that "evil" will always try to "make him 'evil', again". This is why I think the writers brought him back was to show this character growth. Though, the whole thing would suffice with just S4E22 "Witch Way, Now?" and have Cole just die in the Wasteland but w/e. I still think S5E1 A Witch's Tail, Pt 1 - S5E12 Centennial Charmed was unnecessary, but it's what they wanted to show.

Otherwise, she's pretty much fine, after that. IK some (not all) take issue with her going baby craze, but IK what's that like, too. I never understood why some (not all) didn't like Phoebe's baby craze phase. It's what she wanted/desired. And, I don't think it had anything to do with her wanting a man nor sex. Though, I never understood why she couldn't just adopt, if she wanted a child that badly. However (and this is going to sound bad), I understand wanting to have your own child, that comes from you but still.

[zoeysmom]

I think Phoebe started going downhill in Season 3. She lied about vanquishing Cole in Sleuthing With The Enemy and skipped out on the home owners meeting to go on a date with Cole, leaving Piper to deal with the other homeowners by herself in Power Outage. She felt remorse about lying to her sisters, sure, and could be forgiven if it was a single mistake of a girl head over heels in love and afraid of her sisters' reactions (particularly Prue's reaction) if it wasn't the start of a larger pattern of her being self-centered.

[zoeysmom]

Feb 11, 2016 19:03:54 GMT -5 @Deleted said:

But think of it from Prue and Piper's perspective for a moment.

Whatever Phoebe's feelings; letting Prue and Piper believe he was dead was gambling with their safety. He tried to kill them several times.
I'm not completely unsympathetic towards Phoebe at this stage, but what she did was hugely irresponsible.
Not only did she let the guy who attacked her sisters go free, she gave them a false sense of safety when he was still out and about. The fact that she had feelings for him probably wasn't much of a constellation after being lied to that way. 

Agreed. I'm not totally unsympathetic towards Phoebe, but at the same time, it was irresponsible and inconsiderate. 

[Aaeiyn]

Mar 2, 2022 12:06:42 GMT -5 zoeysmom said:

I think Phoebe started going downhill in Season 3. She lied about vanquishing Cole in Sleuthing With The Enemy and skipped out on the home owners meeting to go on a date with Cole, leaving Piper to deal with the other homeowners by herself in Power Outage. She felt remorse about lying to her sisters, sure, and could be forgiven if as the mistake of a girl head over heels in love and afraid of her sisters' reactions (particularly Prue's reaction) if it wasn't the start of a larger pattern of her being self-centered.

As I've said, multiple times, Phoebe has lied to her sisters even before this. She lied about going Alcatraz because she didn't want to do everything on the list. It was already a "self-centered" personality showing through Phoebe. It's not out of character for Phoebe to lie even to her own sisters. Her past was being a little troublemaker. We see her lockpicking in one of the overrated episodes, in the fandom via S1E17 That 70s Episode. That's a sign of showing Phoebe's dark side/tendencies which includes lying, cheating (as in using magic to get what she wants), dodging out of trouble, etc.

Phoebe is not some angelic character who does no wrong. She has dark sides, to her that skews her morality away from completely light and tip the scale to displaying more questionable moral alignment.

[zoeysmom]

Mar 2, 2022 12:53:06 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Mar 2, 2022 12:06:42 GMT -5 zoeysmom said:

I think Phoebe started going downhill in Season 3. She lied about vanquishing Cole in Sleuthing With The Enemy and skipped out on the home owners meeting to go on a date with Cole, leaving Piper to deal with the other homeowners by herself in Power Outage. She felt remorse about lying to her sisters, sure, and could be forgiven if as the mistake of a girl head over heels in love and afraid of her sisters' reactions (particularly Prue's reaction) if it wasn't the start of a larger pattern of her being self-centered.

As I've said, multiple times, Phoebe has lied to her sisters even before this. She lied about going Alcatraz because she didn't want to do everything on the list. It was already a "self-centered" personality showing through Phoebe. It's not out of character for Phoebe to lie even to her own sisters. Her past was being a little troublemaker. We see her lockpicking in one of the overrated episodes, in the fandom via S1E17 That 70s Episode. That's a sign of showing Phoebe's dark side/tendencies which includes lying, cheating (as in using magic to get what she wants), dodging out of trouble, etc.

Phoebe is not some angelic character who does no wrong. She has dark sides, to her that skews her morality away from completely light and tip the scale to displaying more questionable moral alignment.

You're right, she has lied to her sisters before. The point I was trying to make was that before, she wasn't lying about someone who tried to kill them before. Lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole is different because he actively tried to kill them for, if I remember correctly, two months. He also put them in more danger than usual when he kept showing up with a bounty on his head. They were already in a lot of danger because of the frequent demon attacks.

[Aaeiyn]

Mar 2, 2022 14:47:35 GMT -5 zoeysmom said:

You're right, she has lied to her sisters before. The point I was trying to make was that before, she wasn't lying about someone who tried to kill them before. Lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole is different because he actively tried to kill them for, if I remember correctly, two months. He also put them in more danger than usual when he kept showing up with a bounty on his head. They were already in a lot of danger because of the frequent demon attacks.

I'll never understand the whole "tried to kill them"/"put their lives in danger" arguments. Especially, since "Saint Prue" was willing to let Rodriguez (S1E22 "Deja Vu all Over Again") go who tried to them (and still tried to, afterwords). And, they're lives are always in danger with or without Cole so what difference does it make, if he's alive or dead? Their lives still aren't any less safe without him.

[codebox]

I still stand by the fact Season 3 planted the seeds for what she would inevitably become, but she doesn't become horrible until Season 4b, starting with her Bridzilla persona and then never recovering afterwards. And yes, a lot of her attitude when around Cole was testament to this. I felt Season 4a struck the right balance between early season Phoebe, but still loved Cole, there's no negative energy from her character the same way I get from her in Season 3. She's still crazy about him, but a lot of her motives are more understanding. Like her cold feet upon proposal, her trying to protect him without powers and her defense of him in Black as Cole. And I'm not saying she has to be a perfect angel around Cole, as even some of her negative traits existed in the first two seasons, they just weren't as forefronted. Like comparably what sets her apart in those early instances compared to a lot of Cole stuff is the way its all done. Of course I said a lot, not all because some stuff I didn't mind. The more I think about it, the less I'm made about her lie in 3x8 because of the conflict it created. Something I wished happened more often and not so mean spiritedly like with Paige in 4b.

I personally hated her more in 3x7 and beginning of 3x8 over her lie tbh. (Phoebe does apologize for the lie, but not for anything in 3x7) It's not until Cole comes back her negative side in season 3 shows up. I think what I'm trying to say is that I prefer more of her positive energy from the first two seasons where, she still could lie to her sisters, but in a in a more understanding way. For me, I think Bridzilla is when Phoebe is full on just annoying, while she wants this wedding perfect for Cole it doesn't justify how she acts. I mean Piper had this same paranoia about wanting her wedding perfect and while she calls it off she never chastises or treats Prue wrong! Especially when Paige tries to be supportive of the wedding despite her mistrust of Cole. Afterwards she's my least favorite character after they vanquish the source. Whereas she only displayed bits of being my least favorite in Season 3 and was fine in 4a.

[Aaeiyn]

I've since changed my mind and like Phoebe for all 8 seasons. Her character has always been selfish since S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes".

I still think Phoebe had no reason to kill Cole (in S3E8 "Sleuthing with the Enemy"), the same way Prue didn't have a reason to kill Rodriguez (until he blew his chance). Both "tried" to kill the Charmed Ones, but the difference is Cole took the mercy, seriously whereas Rodriguez did not.

So, why this board advocates for Phoebe to murder Cole is beyond me.

That being said, after experiencing such traumatic events, it's understandable why she became more "closed off". S5E3 "Happily Ever After" ending explains this.

Do people have to like it? No, but her character makes sense throughout all eight seasons.