When did Phoebe's character start to go downhill?

[Esmeralda]

Jan 28, 2016 18:47:55 GMT -5 esperanzaa said:

HI, pretty interesting to read all the opinions. To be honest, I have never considered "Sleuthing with the enemy" as the start of the downhill, simply because I've always thought that she did that out of love, which eventually can be forgiven, though didn't like the fact that she lied to her sisters. For me the downhill started when she got the job at Bay Mirror, and became a famous columnist, she just became too career-orientated and too confident (in the negative sense), that just completely destroyed the sweetness she had earlier. In my opinion, the character of the other sisters did not change that much during the series because
Prue was always the strong and most caring and protective about her family
Piper always a little whiny
and, imo, Paige's character did also not change much if we, e.g, compare S4 to S8.

Hadn't considered that, but thinking about it, I think you're absolutely right. If Alyssa hadn't become the "star" and her character famous so soon after her breakup with Cole, I wonder if the other changes in her personality would've happened and been worse.

You're right about the others, sorta.

Prue became too full of herself and too full of pride in Season Three - the Power of One, like Piper did in S4-8, which tells me that that'a what would've happened to Prue had she not died.

Piper started a little whiney but always caring and devolved into completely whiney and no longer caring, someone who always felt sorry for herself and someone who was only happy when she had something to complain about.

Paige became ditzier as her hair grew lighter, but unlike the others, she became more like herself when her hair went back to dark, although I can't help wondering what she would've been like if she wasn't forced to accept charges, something that never should've happened.

[ljones]

All of them pretty much went downhill as individual characters, as the series had progressed.

[Deleted]

Feb 1, 2016 11:17:00 GMT -5 ljones said:

All of them pretty much went downhill as individual characters, as the series had progressed.

TV Tropes has a name for that:

When an established character becomes largely different, exhibiting behavior contrary to what has been previously shown. This is not a matter of organic growth. Rather than gradually changing in response to events and experiences, a derailed character will exhibit shockingly unusual behavior that implies malfeasance or incompetence on the part of the writers.

Note that organic growth does not necessarily mean 'benign growth', and it is perfectly possible for a previously good-natured character to end up embittered or depressed without falling victim to this trope. This is rare however, and often unpopular.

In published fiction, derailment is usually caused by an author having a certain story idea and needing to stretch the characters' personality to fit. In the worst cases, the author may end up speaking for the character. In works with multiple authors, a new author may have a wildly different interpretation of a character, causing him to write his version of the character instead of the one established by canon.

Which, of course, is part of a larger trope:

An installment in any long running series that is widely held to be of notably poorer quality than the other installments. Often tied to the dislike of a specific arc, but can also befall episodic shows. In some cases, a new director takes over and pulls the series in a different direction; this can give the impression of Seasonal Rot to those who liked the old way, but may also bring in new viewers who prefer it like this (in other words, a change in tastes or audience).

Sooner or later, if a show runs long enough, Seasonal Rot always sets in. Sometimes it's a temporary dip from which the series recovers (perhaps by bringing in new writers, changing the premise, or in severe cases simply ignoring the events of the rotted season). Other times, it proves to be irreversible and grows worse with each new season, at which point the series has Jumped The Shark.

If the Seasonal Rot occurs because of a poorly-conceived major change to the status quo in an attempt to go in a new direction, it's a season-long Dork Age.

One reason that Short Runners are so fondly remembered is that they never lived long enough for Seasonal Rot to set in. Compare Sequelitis, Sophomore Slump and Later Installment Weirdness. Contrast with Growing the Beard (it is possible for a show that has entered Seasonal Rot to re-Grow the Beard).

[lilchi7212]

Jan 25, 2016 19:13:21 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

For me, that's easy. "Sleuthing with the Enemy" when she lied to Prue about vanquishing Belthazor, putting her lover over her sisters and putting her sisters in danger. During that episode, my favorite character "Phoebs" died and my least-favorite character, PhoeME, was born. From then on, it was always all about her.

I disagree he saved her life so she thought she owed it to spare his. You don't just kill someone who saved your life. 

[Deleted]

But think of it from Prue and Piper's perspective for a moment.

Whatever Phoebe's feelings; letting Prue and Piper believe he was dead was gambling with their safety. He tried to kill them several times.
I'm not completely unsympathetic towards Phoebe at this stage, but what she did was hugely irresponsible.
Not only did she let the guy who attacked her sisters go free, she gave them a false sense of safety when he was still out and about. The fact that she had feelings for him probably wasn't much of a constellation after being lied to that way. 

[Esmeralda]

Feb 11, 2016 14:14:22 GMT -5 lilchi7212 said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:13:21 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

For me, that's easy. "Sleuthing with the Enemy" when she lied to Prue about vanquishing Belthazor, putting her lover over her sisters and putting her sisters in danger. During that episode, my favorite character "Phoebs" died and my least-favorite character, PhoeME, was born. From then on, it was always all about her.

I disagree he saved her life so she thought she owed it to spare his. You don't just kill someone who saved your life. 

Feb 11, 2016 19:03:54 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

But think of it from Prue and Piper's perspective for a moment.

Whatever Phoebe's feelings; letting Prue and Piper believe he was dead was gambling with their safety. He tried to kill them several times.
I'm not completely unsympathetic towards Phoebe at this stage, but what she did was hugely irresponsible.
Not only did she let the guy who attacked her sisters go free, she gave them a false sense of safety when he was still out and about. The fact that she had feelings for him probably wasn't much of a constellation after being lied to that way. 

I agree with P3Nathan, but there's something else. I never said that Phoebe wanting to save Cole had anything to do with Phoebs dying and PhoeME being born. Had she explained to Prue and Piper what she did and why - including the fact that he had saved her - I'm sure her sisters would understand. Instead she lied to them, which led to everything P3Nathan mentioned. After that, I doubt if Prue or Piper could ever trust her again and that should've affected and weakened their bond as the Charmed Ones.

[erikamarie]

Phoebe in love for the first time in her life chooses to trust Cole, with some reason, she is aware that if he hadn't forced her out to smooth things over with her sisters probably they'ld be killed
Lying to the sisters is difficult for her,she talks to Leo,she confesses the truth to Piper, but Piper has to push her to confess everything to Prue, the only person whose opinion really she fears

Prue seems to have a parental role towards her baby sister, Phoebe knows that she'll always be understood and forgiven by Piper, not just from Prue and Phoebe strongly wants being approved, appreciated by Prue

If Piper and Prue are sisters / best friends, Prue for Phoebe is a kind of father / mother, a complicated relationship I'd like to see grow in the time
When Phoebe loses Prue, she loses her critical consciousness and then her great mistakes start

[lilchi7212]

Feb 11, 2016 19:10:37 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Feb 11, 2016 14:14:22 GMT -5 lilchi7212 said:

I disagree he saved her life so she thought she owed it to spare his. You don't just kill someone who saved your life. 

Feb 11, 2016 19:03:54 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

But think of it from Prue and Piper's perspective for a moment.

Whatever Phoebe's feelings; letting Prue and Piper believe he was dead was gambling with their safety. He tried to kill them several times.
I'm not completely unsympathetic towards Phoebe at this stage, but what she did was hugely irresponsible.
Not only did she let the guy who attacked her sisters go free, she gave them a false sense of safety when he was still out and about. The fact that she had feelings for him probably wasn't much of a constellation after being lied to that way. 

I agree with P3Nathan, but there's something else. I never said that Phoebe wanting to save Cole had anything to do with Phoebs dying and PhoeME being born. Had she explained to Prue and Piper what she did and why - including the fact that he had saved her - I'm sure her sisters would understand. Instead she lied to them, which led to everything P3Nathan mentioned. After that, I doubt if Prue or Piper could ever trust her again and that should've affected and weakened their bond as the Charmed Ones.

My guess she lied to her sisters about it because she didn't know if she would ever  see him again since Julian was originally contracted for six episodes. But yes you're right she should not have lied about it.

[codebox]

I never gave much thought to Season 3 Phoebe when I was younger mainly because I was focused more on Cole's storyline in how it related to Cole himself. As well as the more involved action. However as I'm 25 and giving it a watch more and more I really hated PhoeME in this season. As it began her rapid decline in character. The same Phoebe we got in Season 2 who was always free spirited, into magic and the heart when it came to magic (just look at Witch Trial for instance) is the same Phoebe in Season 3 who after instantly seeing Cole becomes fixated on him, then within a few episodes is possessive of him.

Then in Sleuthing with the Enemy her entire personality just shifts out of nowhere. That last shot we get of Phoebe on the broomstick in "All Halliwell's Eve" would be the last time our free spirited Phoebe was shown as a highlight onscreen! Sleuthing with the Enemy is the episode that killed Phoebe. 

It's so odd how Kern manage to 180 change Phoebe into PhoeME within the 5 minute span of the episode. It's like she became a totally different person offscreen between "Power Outtage and Sleuthing with the Enemy" and instead her only motivation, focus and time was just dedicated to just spending time with Cole, and this is right before even finding out he's a demon so she could "help" him! She has an annoying exchange with Prue that segmented Phoebe's death and it was this line

Prue: Prue: Hey.

Phoebe: I'll be back.

Prue: Um, where you going?

Phoebe: I am going to school (they go into the living room) and then I'm going to Cole's.

Prue: Okay, aren't you forgetting a little something? Like vanquishing Belthazor?

Phoebe: Wait, I though you had to write a spell to summon him first.

Prue: Yes, and it's done. I'm using the one that we called Melinda from the past with, just re-wrote it a little bit.

Phoebe: Really? Think it'll work?

Prue: Well, yeah, I mean, it should. It's magic calling magic. Although in this case dark magic. Phoebe, why are you going to Cole's again? I mean, what do you really expect to find?

Phoebe: Mmm, actually, I was gonna go to his office. And how do you know I've already been to Cole's?

Prue: Well, you got a parking ticket there yesterday when you borrowed my car.

Phoebe: Oops, sorry, I'll pay for it.

Prue: Phoebe, that's not the point. Look, please, don't take this out on me, all right. I'm not the bad guy.

Phoebe: I know, I would just like some understanding, you know, some support here.

Prue: Look, I can't support you when I think you're just setting yourself up to get hurt. I have to be honest with you, we have to be honest with each other. That's the promise we made when Belthazor tried to split us apart, remember?

Phoebe: Yeah, it just doesn't help that you never really liked Cole from the beginning.

Prue: Yeah, well, I mean, you never really like any of my boyfriends either.

Phoebe: That's very true.

This scene within the first 5 minutes of the episode showed PhoeME's birth on full display. In Seasons 1 ans 2 Phoebe would've never blew off demon hunting simply for the sake of her personal ideals. She'd be the first one to be on board demon hunting. Here she's blowing off fighting Belthazor (before they knew it was Cole mind you) simply so she can see Cole, while blowing off her sisters in the process. Even when Prue tries to look on the realistic side Phoebe responds by throwing Prue's distrust of Cole right in her face.

Phoebe then acts like a hypocrite when Prue states "You never liked my boyfriend's either" so it's fine for PhoeME to disapprove of who her sister's date, but one slight distrust of Cole and she acts defensive? It also shows a step back in Prue/Phoebe's relationship. Prue wants them to be truthful and honest and all PhoeME can think about is ditching her and Piper in favor of Cole! Not only that is completely apathetic toward the fact she got a speed ticket in Prue's car. Anything about Phoebe we knew is destroyed in this one bit of dialogue, then PhoeME was fully morphed when she let Cole go and lied to her sisters! I hate Halliwell's in Love!

And then she ditches her sisters AGAIN simply to go see Cole and leaves her responsibilities onto Piper who had her own problems to deal with. It feels so much this season as if Phoebe doesn't connect or care as much about her sisters as she did. She's barely present in the same room as them most of the season.

As Season 3 progresses you see the same cycle of behavior with Phoebe in that she's either not present in the same room, chooses her love for Cole over Prue and Piper, then berates Cole when she thinks he's related to evil. This problem is further escalated in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold" with Phoebe's line here

Cole: There is one way. For me to go back.

Phoebe: Cole.

Cole: If you want to know what they're up to we have no choice.

Phoebe: Okay, but you'll be exposing yourself to the source. They'll kill you.

Cole: Maybe not. They've probably already surfaced, set up camp in this world. I won't have to go under completely.

Prue: It does kind of make sense.

Phoebe: Well, if course it makes sense to you, Prue, you're always looking for a way to get Cole out of our lives.

Piper: Phoebe.

Cole: This isn't about her, Phoebe, it's about me.

Phoebe: No, it's about us.

Phoebe just assumes every little thing Prue says is just because she hates Cole, even when Cole says it was about him. There's such a bitterness with PhoebME in this season that it's so hard to watch her. Then you have the ending of Exit Strategy which makes everything worse. Then there's her ditching Piper and Prue AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose simply so she can save Cole, even when being convinced Shax isn't dead, nah that's not important. Her only focus is if she can save Cole or not, she doesn't even take into consideration Prue and Piper need Tempus to turn back time until Leo informs them of it, which leaves both of them without a way to heal Piper's injuries. Hope Prue's death was worth saving Cole PhoeME, because that's what you did!

Bottomline I thought PhoeME was okay when I was younger, looking back now she's the thing I hated the most in Season 3. And still hate if I haven't made it clear enough. A completely different person than who she was in Season 2.

[Melinda Halliwell]

Jun 20, 2019 17:44:07 GMT -5 codebox said:

I never gave much thought to Season 3 Phoebe when I was younger mainly because I was focused more on Cole's storyline in how it related to Cole himself. As well as the more involved action. However as I'm 25 and giving it a watch more and more I really hated PhoeME in this season. As it began her rapid decline in character. The same Phoebe we got in Season 2 who was always free spirited, into magic and the heart when it came to magic (just look at Witch Trial for instance) is the same Phoebe in Season 3 who after instantly seeing Cole becomes fixated on him, then within a few episodes is possessive of him.

Then in Sleuthing with the Enemy her entire personality just shifts out of nowhere. That last shot we get of Phoebe on the broomstick in "All Halliwell's Eve" would be the last time our free spirited Phoebe was shown as a highlight onscreen! Sleuthing with the Enemy is the episode that killed Phoebe. 

It's so odd how Kern manage to 180 change Phoebe into PhoeME within the 5 minute span of the episode. It's like she became a totally different person offscreen between "Power Outtage and Sleuthing with the Enemy" and instead her only motivation, focus and time was just dedicated to just spending time with Cole, and this is right before even finding out he's a demon so she could "help" him! She has an annoying exchange with Prue that segmented Phoebe's death and it was this line

Prue: Prue: Hey.

Phoebe: I'll be back.

Prue: Um, where you going?

Phoebe: I am going to school (they go into the living room) and then I'm going to Cole's.

Prue: Okay, aren't you forgetting a little something? Like vanquishing Belthazor?

Phoebe: Wait, I though you had to write a spell to summon him first.

Prue: Yes, and it's done. I'm using the one that we called Melinda from the past with, just re-wrote it a little bit.

Phoebe: Really? Think it'll work?

Prue: Well, yeah, I mean, it should. It's magic calling magic. Although in this case dark magic. Phoebe, why are you going to Cole's again? I mean, what do you really expect to find?

Phoebe: Mmm, actually, I was gonna go to his office. And how do you know I've already been to Cole's?

Prue: Well, you got a parking ticket there yesterday when you borrowed my car.

Phoebe: Oops, sorry, I'll pay for it.

Prue: Phoebe, that's not the point. Look, please, don't take this out on me, all right. I'm not the bad guy.

Phoebe: I know, I would just like some understanding, you know, some support here.

Prue: Look, I can't support you when I think you're just setting yourself up to get hurt. I have to be honest with you, we have to be honest with each other. That's the promise we made when Belthazor tried to split us apart, remember?

Phoebe: Yeah, it just doesn't help that you never really liked Cole from the beginning.

Prue: Yeah, well, I mean, you never really like any of my boyfriends either.

Phoebe: That's very true.

This scene within the first 5 minutes of the episode showed PhoeME's birth on full display. In Seasons 1 ans 2 Phoebe would've never blew off demon hunting simply for the sake of her personal ideals. She'd be the first one to be on board demon hunting. Here she's blowing off fighting Belthazor (before they knew it was Cole mind you) simply so she can see Cole, while blowing off her sisters in the process. Even when Prue tries to look on the realistic side Phoebe responds by throwing Prue's distrust of Cole right in her face.

Phoebe then acts like a hypocrite when Prue states "You never liked my boyfriend's either" so it's fine for PhoeME to disapprove of who her sister's date, but one slight distrust of Cole and she acts defensive? It also shows a step back in Prue/Phoebe's relationship. Prue wants them to be truthful and honest and all PhoeME can think about is ditching her and Piper in favor of Cole! Not only that is completely apathetic toward the fact she got a speed ticket in Prue's car. Anything about Phoebe we knew is destroyed in this one bit of dialogue, then PhoeME was fully morphed when she let Cole go and lied to her sisters! I hate Halliwell's in Love!

And then she ditches her sisters AGAIN simply to go see Cole and leaves her responsibilities onto Piper who had her own problems to deal with. It feels so much this season as if Phoebe doesn't connect or care as much about her sisters as she did. She's barely present in the same room as them most of the season.

As Season 3 progresses you see the same cycle of behavior with Phoebe in that she's either not present in the same room, chooses her love for Cole over Prue and Piper, then berates Cole when she thinks he's related to evil. This problem is further escalated in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold" with Phoebe's line here

Cole: There is one way. For me to go back.

Phoebe: Cole.

Cole: If you want to know what they're up to we have no choice.

Phoebe: Okay, but you'll be exposing yourself to the source. They'll kill you.

Cole: Maybe not. They've probably already surfaced, set up camp in this world. I won't have to go under completely.

Prue: It does kind of make sense.

Phoebe: Well, if course it makes sense to you, Prue, you're always looking for a way to get Cole out of our lives.

Piper: Phoebe.

Cole: This isn't about her, Phoebe, it's about me.

Phoebe: No, it's about us.

Phoebe just assumes every little thing Prue says is just because she hates Cole, even when Cole says it was about him. There's such a bitterness with PhoebME in this season that it's so hard to watch her. Then you have the ending of Exit Strategy which makes everything worse. Then there's her ditching Piper and Prue AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose simply so she can save Cole, even when being convinced Shax isn't dead, nah that's not important. Her only focus is if she can save Cole or not, she doesn't even take into consideration Prue and Piper need Tempus to turn back time until Leo informs them of it, which leaves both of them without a way to heal Piper's injuries. Hope Prue's death was worth saving Cole PhoeME, because that's what you did!

Bottomline I thought PhoeME was okay when I was younger, looking back now she's the thing I hated the most in Season 3. And still hate if I haven't made it clear enough. A completely different person than who she was in Season 2.

Exactly so. Phoebe was my was my pet peeve with season 3 and Piper slightly also although there were some standout episodes that year with 'All Halliwell's Eve' and 'The Good The Bad And The Cursed'.

[Elle Em]

I think of how Phoebe didn't trust Brendan and seemed to outright hate Bane, and I wish she had been the same way towards Cole. Those two didn't match very well for me. He seemed older (obviously, being a demon, but by his appearance) and more mature. He was an assistant district attorney who wore suits everywhere, and she was a college student with little work experience.

It would have been great if season 3 had been a continuation of her growing up and she could have sensed something was off about him. Maybe he could then change his plans to Prue instead, who might be more receptive to him if, A, she seemed to be on the path we saw in Just Harried where her inner desire to be free was struggling to get out, and B, if Phoebe didn't like him, Prue might like him more just as some kind of silly sister thing.

It would provide Phoebe with more of an opportunity to continue to mature, and knock Prue down a little from getting obnoxiously confident in season 3. Plus Prue either would have vanquished him outright, or wouldn't have lied to her sisters about it, and wouldn't make the bad judgement call of going to the underworld in AHBL to find him amid all the Shax drama.

[codebox]

Jun 21, 2019 3:52:23 GMT -5 Melinda Halliwell said:

Jun 20, 2019 17:44:07 GMT -5 codebox said:

I never gave much thought to Season 3 Phoebe when I was younger mainly because I was focused more on Cole's storyline in how it related to Cole himself. As well as the more involved action. However as I'm 25 and giving it a watch more and more I really hated PhoeME in this season. As it began her rapid decline in character. The same Phoebe we got in Season 2 who was always free spirited, into magic and the heart when it came to magic (just look at Witch Trial for instance) is the same Phoebe in Season 3 who after instantly seeing Cole becomes fixated on him, then within a few episodes is possessive of him.

Then in Sleuthing with the Enemy her entire personality just shifts out of nowhere. That last shot we get of Phoebe on the broomstick in "All Halliwell's Eve" would be the last time our free spirited Phoebe was shown as a highlight onscreen! Sleuthing with the Enemy is the episode that killed Phoebe. 

It's so odd how Kern manage to 180 change Phoebe into PhoeME within the 5 minute span of the episode. It's like she became a totally different person offscreen between "Power Outtage and Sleuthing with the Enemy" and instead her only motivation, focus and time was just dedicated to just spending time with Cole, and this is right before even finding out he's a demon so she could "help" him! She has an annoying exchange with Prue that segmented Phoebe's death and it was this line

Prue: Prue: Hey.

Phoebe: I'll be back.

Prue: Um, where you going?

Phoebe: I am going to school (they go into the living room) and then I'm going to Cole's.

Prue: Okay, aren't you forgetting a little something? Like vanquishing Belthazor?

Phoebe: Wait, I though you had to write a spell to summon him first.

Prue: Yes, and it's done. I'm using the one that we called Melinda from the past with, just re-wrote it a little bit.

Phoebe: Really? Think it'll work?

Prue: Well, yeah, I mean, it should. It's magic calling magic. Although in this case dark magic. Phoebe, why are you going to Cole's again? I mean, what do you really expect to find?

Phoebe: Mmm, actually, I was gonna go to his office. And how do you know I've already been to Cole's?

Prue: Well, you got a parking ticket there yesterday when you borrowed my car.

Phoebe: Oops, sorry, I'll pay for it.

Prue: Phoebe, that's not the point. Look, please, don't take this out on me, all right. I'm not the bad guy.

Phoebe: I know, I would just like some understanding, you know, some support here.

Prue: Look, I can't support you when I think you're just setting yourself up to get hurt. I have to be honest with you, we have to be honest with each other. That's the promise we made when Belthazor tried to split us apart, remember?

Phoebe: Yeah, it just doesn't help that you never really liked Cole from the beginning.

Prue: Yeah, well, I mean, you never really like any of my boyfriends either.

Phoebe: That's very true.

This scene within the first 5 minutes of the episode showed PhoeME's birth on full display. In Seasons 1 ans 2 Phoebe would've never blew off demon hunting simply for the sake of her personal ideals. She'd be the first one to be on board demon hunting. Here she's blowing off fighting Belthazor (before they knew it was Cole mind you) simply so she can see Cole, while blowing off her sisters in the process. Even when Prue tries to look on the realistic side Phoebe responds by throwing Prue's distrust of Cole right in her face.

Phoebe then acts like a hypocrite when Prue states "You never liked my boyfriend's either" so it's fine for PhoeME to disapprove of who her sister's date, but one slight distrust of Cole and she acts defensive? It also shows a step back in Prue/Phoebe's relationship. Prue wants them to be truthful and honest and all PhoeME can think about is ditching her and Piper in favor of Cole! Not only that is completely apathetic toward the fact she got a speed ticket in Prue's car. Anything about Phoebe we knew is destroyed in this one bit of dialogue, then PhoeME was fully morphed when she let Cole go and lied to her sisters! I hate Halliwell's in Love!

And then she ditches her sisters AGAIN simply to go see Cole and leaves her responsibilities onto Piper who had her own problems to deal with. It feels so much this season as if Phoebe doesn't connect or care as much about her sisters as she did. She's barely present in the same room as them most of the season.

As Season 3 progresses you see the same cycle of behavior with Phoebe in that she's either not present in the same room, chooses her love for Cole over Prue and Piper, then berates Cole when she thinks he's related to evil. This problem is further escalated in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold" with Phoebe's line here

Cole: There is one way. For me to go back.

Phoebe: Cole.

Cole: If you want to know what they're up to we have no choice.

Phoebe: Okay, but you'll be exposing yourself to the source. They'll kill you.

Cole: Maybe not. They've probably already surfaced, set up camp in this world. I won't have to go under completely.

Prue: It does kind of make sense.

Phoebe: Well, if course it makes sense to you, Prue, you're always looking for a way to get Cole out of our lives.

Piper: Phoebe.

Cole: This isn't about her, Phoebe, it's about me.

Phoebe: No, it's about us.

Phoebe just assumes every little thing Prue says is just because she hates Cole, even when Cole says it was about him. There's such a bitterness with PhoebME in this season that it's so hard to watch her. Then you have the ending of Exit Strategy which makes everything worse. Then there's her ditching Piper and Prue AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose simply so she can save Cole, even when being convinced Shax isn't dead, nah that's not important. Her only focus is if she can save Cole or not, she doesn't even take into consideration Prue and Piper need Tempus to turn back time until Leo informs them of it, which leaves both of them without a way to heal Piper's injuries. Hope Prue's death was worth saving Cole PhoeME, because that's what you did!

Bottomline I thought PhoeME was okay when I was younger, looking back now she's the thing I hated the most in Season 3. And still hate if I haven't made it clear enough. A completely different person than who she was in Season 2.

Exactly so. Phoebe was my was my pet peeve with season 3 and Piper slightly also although there were some standout episodes that year with 'All Halliwell's Eve' and 'The Good The Bad And The Cursed'.

I was more forgiving of Piper in Season 3 simply because all her complaining and misfortune falls on the elders. Around that time they meddled in their relationship, threatened unspeakable wrath and took Leo away as Piper was about to have a moment with Leo and made it difficult for them to even have a decent relationship. I mean look at her rant in Once Upon A Time, she's more mad at the Elders than the fact she wanted a normal life and spends the whole episode in anger at them. She even apologizes in the end when her desire to want Leo back almost cost them the life of the little girl they were saving. Piper even saves the day giving the girl a speech that helps turn her back from being a fairy.

Unlike Season 5-8 Piper didn't let her relationship with Leo dictate her job and the Elder's being jerks and meddling certain gives more in Piper's favor. That being said I do think Piper's abuse toward Leo did start to spread breadcrumbs namely in Death Takes a Halliwell where she broke what the Elders gave them as a symbol of their love. But its nowhere near as prominate as it would be later seasons. Thankfully they only amount to a couple subplots or scenes. 

The beginning of Exist Strategy did have Piper mad because Leo had to leave instead of going on their honeymoon. Certainly a sign of her treatment of Leo later, but again its gone within the next scene and Piper's not ranting about it from then on. Take Season 5 Siren Song where all she does is rant throughout the episode about how Leo's too busy focusing on his job than her, the main problem is it keeps going and continues throughout later episodes. Rather than giving Piper any other motivation or priority to focus on. At least Exit Strategy did shift the focus to her gaining her new power so she couldn't harp on Leo so much. For the most part Piper isn't that bad this season she's actually my favorite of the sisters because she wasn't stuck in uncomfortable drama or losing her complete character like Phoebe. Who all of a sudden was completely self focused and endangered their situations more than helped. 

Basically what still kept Piper likable for me in Season 3 was that it never affected her ability to do her job, whereas in Seasons 5-8 all she would do constantly is force her normal life on the household and abuse Leo when he doesn't conform to her attention/wants at the expense of their duties. Again with the adforementioned Exit Strategy, was Piper naggy? Of course, but that episode at least made sure to keep Piper's nagging at a minimal and not centralize her character. 

[mute90]

For me, what came after Long Live the Queen was the problem.

I can see problems before then, but I consider them part of an interesting story. At the end of Bride and Gloom (Season 3), Phoebe is already worried about how things will go between her and Cole. He's going to fall and she's going to fall with him. She pushes aside that worry to be with him, but that is the path it leads her down (and was leading her down since she first met him.) I thought that was interesting, and it echoed the mistakes of Phoebe's past self in Pardon My Past(Season 2). In the end, she differs from her past self by choosing good over evil and her family over Cole. She comes back. That's all great. It's what comes after that is so disappointing. Phoebe doesn't really face consequences for what she did. She doesn't work to make up for it. They wrote it like rejecting Cole was all she needed to do and they never had her deal with herself. This refusal to deal with her own problems and become better just made her come off as arrogant and self-righteous.

As an example, Supernatural had the story of a character going downhill, turning evil, and coming back from it. The difference: His brother didn't trust him in the episodes that followed. He didn't trust himself. He was reminded of what he did. Other people found out what he did and attacked him. He gave his life to fix what he'd broken. There were actual consequences. There was admittance of guilt: "I know how messed up I am. The problem's not the demon blood. What I did - I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything. The problem is me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me."

I wanted that for Phoebe. The problem wasn't that they brought her down. It was that they didn't bring her back up again. They brought Cole back just to use him as a scapegoat and somehow made Phoebe even crazier in her relationships.

[Melinda Halliwell]

Jun 24, 2019 15:07:39 GMT -5 mute90 said:

For me, what came after Long Live the Queen was the problem.

I can see problems before then, but I consider them part of an interesting story. At the end of Bride and Gloom (Season 3), Phoebe is already worried about how things will go between her and Cole. He's going to fall and she's going to fall with him. She pushes aside that worry to be with him, but that is the path it leads her down (and was leading her down since she first met him.) I thought that was interesting, and it echoed the mistakes of Phoebe's past self in Pardon My Past(Season 2). In the end, she differs from her past self by choosing good over evil and her family over Cole. She comes back. That's all great. It's what comes after that is so disappointing. Phoebe doesn't really face consequences for what she did. She doesn't work to make up for it. They wrote it like rejecting Cole was all she needed to do and they never had her deal with herself. This refusal to deal with her own problems and become better just made her come off as arrogant and self-righteous.

As an example, Supernatural had the story of a character going downhill, turning evil, and coming back from it. The difference: His brother didn't trust him in the episodes that followed. He didn't trust himself. He was reminded of what he did. Other people found out what he did and attacked him. He gave his life to fix what he'd broken. There were actual consequences. There was admittance of guilt: "I know how messed up I am. The problem's not the demon blood. What I did - I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything. The problem is me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me."

I wanted that for Phoebe. The problem wasn't that they brought her down. It was that they didn't bring her back up again. They brought Cole back just to use him as a scapegoat and somehow made Phoebe even crazier in her relationships.

Exactly so. Part of what happened to Cole was Phoebe's involvement also. He wanted to give the Source's powers to the Wizard but Phoebe stopped him.

Even though Phoetus  was influencing her at the time she choose to become Queen Of The Underworld also. Then like you said when Cole's vanquished she doesn't hold her hands up to her part in it like it was all him when it wasn't clearly and Phoebe goes on the defensive the moment her ex's back making him like the Devil's incarnate almost then.

If the writers wanted fans to like Phoebe again then they should've had her do something like that whether it was taking a sabbatical or through counselling to find herself again admitting what went wrong and her part played in that and how she could improve on it not telling the obvious truth during the later of course. 

And welcome to the board by the way.

 

[Elle Em]

Jun 24, 2019 15:07:39 GMT -5 mute90 said:

For me, what came after Long Live the Queen was the problem.

I can see problems before then, but I consider them part of an interesting story. At the end of Bride and Gloom (Season 3), Phoebe is already worried about how things will go between her and Cole. He's going to fall and she's going to fall with him. She pushes aside that worry to be with him, but that is the path it leads her down (and was leading her down since she first met him.) I thought that was interesting, and it echoed the mistakes of Phoebe's past self in Pardon My Past(Season 2). In the end, she differs from her past self by choosing good over evil and her family over Cole. She comes back. That's all great. It's what comes after that is so disappointing. Phoebe doesn't really face consequences for what she did. She doesn't work to make up for it. They wrote it like rejecting Cole was all she needed to do and they never had her deal with herself. This refusal to deal with her own problems and become better just made her come off as arrogant and self-righteous.

As an example, Supernatural had the story of a character going downhill, turning evil, and coming back from it. The difference: His brother didn't trust him in the episodes that followed. He didn't trust himself. He was reminded of what he did. Other people found out what he did and attacked him. He gave his life to fix what he'd broken. There were actual consequences. There was admittance of guilt: "I know how messed up I am. The problem's not the demon blood. What I did - I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything. The problem is me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me."

I wanted that for Phoebe. The problem wasn't that they brought her down. It was that they didn't bring her back up again. They brought Cole back just to use him as a scapegoat and somehow made Phoebe even crazier in her relationships.

I'm kind of torn with the evil Phoebe story. On the one hand, I think it irreparably damaged her character, but on the other, I was captivated when watching it. It's such a massive screw up on her part, and the whole thing was so dark and creepy. Throw in Cole's increasingly abusive behavior and the idea of a stolen fetus, and it's morbidly fascinating.

A part of me wouldn't change a lot of it, but as you said, I do wish Phoebe had truly come to terms with and answered for what she did. I remember the Phoebe of season 1 talking about how she broke up with Clay because he was a bad influence on her, and Prue looking so proud of her. It was a much smaller example of Phoebe taking a negative situation and getting herself out of it, knowing it wouldn't lead to anything good for her and that she had to grow up.

She had massive growth potential from the queen of the underworld storyline. Sort of like all her growth up until that point after becoming a witch was just preparation for the reflection and atonement she'd have to undergo after her being evil. She could have reexamined everything about her life and how she was living, and come out the other side as a changed, whole person. But instead, she just lived in denial and never addressed any of it. 

[Melinda Halliwell]

Which partly ruined her character then on for me as well as the baby quest thing.

[gleamingroses]

Majority rules will say it was "Sleuthing with the Enemy" that killed Phoebe or her sudden boost in self centered behavior in Season 5. With me I don't agree with either. Sure I don't agree with the choice Phoebe took in Sleuthing with the Enemy. However she had the intent that Cole wouldn't come back to hurt them again (and she did feel somewhat guilty afterwards) I will say though her sudden shift in being self involved with her exchange with Prue was basically the starting line to what she would become, so not to say she's blameless. Just suddenly blowing off any chance to help Prue and Piper in favor of Cole even before the reveal he's a demon was very out of character coming off the Phoebe we got in Seasons 1 & 2 as well as All Halliwell's Eve.

Fast Forward to after the reveal where it feels more like Shannen and Alyssa taking their feud onset and some annoying banter between them thoughout Wrestling with Demons and her berating of him in "The Bride and Gloom" where she claims he can never be good because he's inherently evil and some mean tones toward Prue in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold". And yeah Phoebe has a very self centered and narrow minded nature this season. But to me the episode that submitted the fact that Phoebe's character derailment was on full display was Exit Strategy.

She literally had this in the bag, her entire motive to save him would come full circle right? After all she preaches how much she "believes in him" or "how she wants to save him" so they get a power stripping potion perfect right? NOPE! Instead because she walks in on a misunderstanding that she automatically just assumes was his own accord, despite the previous episode protesting that Cole was being setup and how she didn't believe he had turned she just comes to this conclusion he "killed" a witch on his own and smashes in right in front of him rather than using that as motivation to save him. To me this is where PhoeME was birthed, then morphed entirely! She literally destroyed a chance she had at saving Cole and herself, but throws it away due to a misunderstanding and literally assumes she lot him to evil! Doesn't help that in All Hell Breaks Loose she chooses that moment in time (despite Prue's warning of Shax might not be vanquished) her only focus is if she can save Cole or not. Then at Prue's funeral she refuses to go if Cole's not there, leading to her funeral being destroyed!

Afterwards she never recovers from this. Sure she doesn't have too much annoyance in Season 4's first half, but that's main because the focus is on Paige's introduction. However once Marry-Go Round hit the fan PhoeME just goes full frontal on Paige for the same reasons she did Prue and blames her for "ruining their wedding" afterwards she never recovers from her self centered behavior. This was also the arc where she becomes an advice columnist.

[Elle Em]

That always bothered me in Exit Strategy, how she smashed the power stripping potion. If she really believes he just killed a witch, whether he was manipulated or not, wouldn't the safer course of action be to get rid of his powers so he can't do it again? It isn't like she's saying that by stripping his powers, he won't have to atone for what he did. He's still alive with that guilt and with her feelings towards him. But for all she knew, he shimmered out of there to kill someone else, or have his mentor coerce him into doing more evil. It was a bit of a precursor to season 5 when she refused to vanquish him after he tried tricking them into it. I mean, come on, Phoebe. Wouldn't you rather have a powerless Cole Turner over a half Cole, half demon being who had lethal powers at his disposal?

[Melinda Halliwell]

That would've been the smart choice but it didn't happen obviously.

It's almost like the only thing the smart spell taught Phoebe was kickboxing then.

[heartofempathy]

She a Man baby, a man

We learn that pheobe developed empathy via her premonition; it hadn’t quite matured into full empathy. And yet this is never explored again.

Phoebe literally senses things, uses so kind of empathic control over the succubus and then after that she never explores this.

However it just seemed there her and Prue were competing to be the center of attention, phoebe normally the damsel and Prue normally the super witch