Would "Season 4: Without Phoebe" had been recieved better?

[jdpm1991]

The downfall of Season 4 is Shannen Doherty's departure. So if Alyssa had left and Shannen had stayed, would it had been welcomed and recieved better by fans? Also, would Piper had been more welcoming of Paige like Phoebe was and Prue would be in Piper's place hating Paige replacing Phoebe?

[val1993]

Mmm... I think both Prue and Piper would be reluctant (with Piper being a bit less) to accept Paige as their new baby sister. Actually, I think Prue would grieve over Phoebe for like the whole season or something, it would be too hard for her to have another beloved relative lost. I can totally see her turning into a Furie (I bet Shannen's portrayal of that creature would drop us dead). But... I don't think that we would see Rose McGowan portraying Paige because the new sister-to-be would be supposed to resemble Phoebe somehow.

[adzpower]

I don't think there was any downfall of season 4 when it comes to the characters, I thought Paige in season four was a fantastic character. And for me, Phoebe wasn't the issue with Charmed's downfall (which wasn't until season 5 imo), it was Brad Kern.
And to your main question, no, it wouldn't have worked because at the time Alyssa was mega popular, she was the "star" of the show at that point thanks to her Cole storyline. Without that Charmed would have declined ratings wise much sooner than it did imo.

[West]

Well from a fan like me, absolutely. It would of saved us the Phoebe/Cole stuff, and the combo of Prue/Piper/Paige has so much potenial.

But from the WB point of view and popularity it was Alyssa. But then the show may have ended sooner after 4 or 5 seasons, and that isn't a bad thing.

[Deleted]

Well I have to disagree with the initial statement. I don't think it's really that simple. I think season 4 was fine. It certainly had it's issues, but I think they were more complex than any one cast member.

Hard to say whether it would have been better received, because the way things happened in reality weren't really what they expected. They thought they'd have great ratings for the premiere (with people curious to see how they deal with writing Shannen out), then thought the ratings would plummet over the course of the season and end with their cancellation. But it didn't happen. There was a drop, but not nearly as steep as they'd anticipated. To be honest, I reckon it would've gone more or less the same way if it'd been Alyssa.

Here's the thing. I think whichever actress you get rid of, the danger was less about "people love this actor" and more about the original three sisters being such a massive part of the story. It's not like other shows where you have a group of close friends or colleagues or whatever, these three grew up together, they only really had each other (until later on anyway) and that was a fundamental part of the show. That's what had the potential to damage the series beyond repair; because they could replace a character, but they couldn't replace that history. 



However, if Shannen had stayed, that probably would have mattered less anyway, since it's unlikely that she would've stayed on as long. So we probably would have only had four seasons regardless of how well or how badly it went (maybe a shorter season 5 if Shannen was feeling generous).

My ideal would be to have four seasons with Shannen, in which we have the main Charmed story if you will. Then if there was to be anything else: perhaps later on they could do two or three 60 minute standalone stories a year. Save budget, keep the stories fresh, keep the cast refreshed and eager to come back by not making it such a huge commitment.

[Deleted]

However, if Shannen had stayed, that probably would have mattered less anyway, since it's unlikely that she would've stayed on as long. So we probably would have only had four seasons regardless of how well or how badly it went (maybe a shorter season 5 if Shannen was feeling generous).

Too bad that didn't happen, for the following reasons:

1.  Had Phoebe died at the end of S3, she would have never turned into the horrible character she did in the later seasons.

2.  Charmed would have probably ended with S4, thus sparing us the aforementioned later seasons.

It would have been a win-win!

[Deleted]

It's true. The more I think of it, the more I wish it had been reality.

I'm about to come clean about something really pathetic... I had a dream once that I was in a DVD store and found "Charmed: The Complete Fourth Season" on the shelf. But strangely, Paige wasn't on the cover; Prue was! So I took it home and put it on my shelf, only to realise that seasons 5-7 were no longer in my room. I put the first disc into my DVD player and of course that is where I woke up feeling frustrated. Damn!

If only I could jump into an alternate reality and swipe that box set. Might cause time and space to implode, but at least I'd have something to watch.

[erikamarie]

I am relieved it did not happen,instead

Prue's dominant behavior, developing the character, was destined to become too prevailing: the ironic and placatory Paige allowed a collegial handling of the Power of Three

I love season 4 and even if I like Prue better then Paige, I loved the trio Piper-Phoebe -Paige also

And if Charmed ended with the fourth season, I would have lost too many things that I love: Wyatt and the magic day of his birth, Phoebe turned into a genius, the three sisters without their senses, Crone and Zankou, Tyler and the baby manticore, Chris and that dark and fascinating meeting in the attic with his big brother, Drake and Henry, the Avatars (managed very badly but the idea of forces opposed to free will was original) and Christy, Bianca, the Phoenix and the Halliwell's fake death

I'ld go on for a long time to enumerate what I'ld have lost, because with all its faults, Charmed was always full of ideas and never repetitive and I realize even better now watching Supernatural's decline which repeats itself again and again

[Sadrick]

I always stood fast to the idea that the original Power of 3 was the more organic and relatable presentation of a sisterhood compared to the perfunctory coexistence which the neo-P03 was modeled on. Paige was by all accounts an outsider to that sisterhood. She had her own separate life with conflicting past experiences and an independence streak that already existed with Phoebe. In many respects I perceive her as a rehash of Phoebe. Even her physical appearance begets the symbolism of someone who wasn't originally part of their family.

From my viewpoint, Paige was merely riding on the coattails of Season 3's success as a newcomer that was hastily put together in order to occupy the void that Prue left. Many fans hold Season 4 as being one of, if not the best season of the show. With that in mind, I can't help but wonder how a hypothetical Season 4 with Prue in it would have panned out. My assumptions are that it would have turned out better, what with the original script having been written with her in mind and not Paige. Moreover, I consider Shannen's acting redention of the darker and more dramatic side of Charmed to be a more appropriate fit for the ambiance of S4 than Paige's scatterbrained ditzy personality.

[sol]

I am absolutely convinced, Kern sewed up season 4 on Prue's character and in the interview that I quoted the actress was enthusiastic of the story arc

Indeed Paige, ironic, independent, artist, is for a lot of time the lightly side in the group of sisters

A story that has to call for a love triangle, a rift between the sisters, the rise of Cole and Phoebe as Masters of the Underworld, had to have a strong personality in its core like Prue's

In Long Live the Queen, Piper's hardness is unnatural, in fact, she ends up completely drunk blaming herself

Paige's hope to bring back Phoebe makes little sense given that they knew each other for a short time, Paige takes what it'ld be Piper's role, scared and hopeful


Season 4 is one of my favorites, but I agree that Prue'ld have made all the story arc more compelling

[Esmeralda]

I keep looking for fanfics that show how fans think Season Four might have gone had Prue not died and had Paige never been a part of their lives, as would've happened had Shannen Doherty not been fired. Reading these posts make me want to read something like that even more.

If anyone has written or read anything like that, I'd love the link. Remember - a Season Four rewrite where all three Charmed Ones live and Paige does not exist...what we might have seen had Shannen Doherty not been fired.

I've read fanfics with the Power of Four (an idea that's abhorrent to me, since it goes against everything that is part of Charmed.) and I've read (and worked on) stories where it's Phoebe who died (which I'd prefer just so she has a better chance of remaining my Phoebs, even if it means Prue would've become Poor, Poor Pitiful Prue rather than Piper since that seems to be what Brad Kern seems to think would happen to the Oldest), but the idea of what it might have been like if *nobody* died...that idea fascinates me and I'd love to see what fans came/come up with, especially if it's realistic and doesn't include Paige.

[chillboyx]

There is one thing missing from these ideas I wanted to add. According to the IMDB page, "long live the queen" was originally supposed to be the season 5 finale. Meaning, phoebe would be crowned the queen of the underworld after a long season 5 descent into evil. Season 4 was rushed for many reasons and it's obvious when you go back to watch it. Phoebe gets a hair cut and a dye job and is now a badass turning into the queen of the underworld in 4 episodes. The season four finale was to be the charmed ones Vanquishing the original source. With Shannon leaving, in my opinion because she read ahead and knew that Alyssa was becoming more popular and then becoming the most dynamic character on the show as the queen of the underworld, she of coarse took issue with that as well. Shannon leaving then Constance seeing Kern shrink her vision into 1 season and not two. Julian's contract being up mid season 5 where they had to vanquish him as belthezar not the source. So much would have been different if the original plan had continued. Even without Shannon.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2016 19:06:49 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

I keep looking for fanfics that show how fans think Season Four might have gone had Prue not died and had Paige never been a part of their lives, as would've happened had Shannen Doherty not been fired. Reading these posts make me want to read something like that even more.

If anyone has written or read anything like that, I'd love the link. Remember - a Season Four rewrite where all three Charmed Ones live and Paige does not exist...what we might have seen had Shannen Doherty not been fired.

I've read fanfics with the Power of Four (an idea that's abhorrent to me, since it goes against everything that is part of Charmed.) and I've read (and worked on) stories where it's Phoebe who died (which I'd prefer just so she has a better chance of remaining my Phoebs, even if it means Prue would've become Poor, Poor Pitiful Prue rather than Piper since that seems to be what Brad Kern seems to think would happen to the Oldest), but the idea of what it might have been like if *nobody* died...that idea fascinates me and I'd love to see what fans came/come up with, especially if it's realistic and doesn't include Paige.

I'm actually considering re-writing my season 4 for a few different reasons if anyone is interested. Firstly I'd like to do it like mini novels rather than scripts. Secondly, when I did it originally, I was always intending to do a season 5; whereas now I'm interesting in writing a final season for the original P3.

I know I "consider" a lot of projects, but since I already have a season written and intent to take and rework certain stories from it, I might actually get around to that one sooner rather than later

Only thing is, it might require a season 3 rewatch, because it's been a while.

[Esmeralda]

Feb 10, 2016 13:43:51 GMT -5 chillboyx said:

There is one thing missing from these ideas I wanted to add. According to the IMDB page, "long live the queen" was originally supposed to be the season 5 finale. Meaning, phoebe would be crowned the queen of the underworld after a long season 5 descent into evil. Season 4 was rushed for many reasons and it's obvious when you go back to watch it. Phoebe gets a hair cut and a dye job and is now a badass turning into the queen of the underworld in 4 episodes. The season four finale was to be the charmed ones Vanquishing the original source. With Shannon leaving, in my opinion because she read ahead and knew that Alyssa was becoming more popular and then becoming the most dynamic character on the show as the queen of the underworld, she of coarse took issue with that as well. Shannon leaving then Constance seeing Kern shrink her vision into 1 season and not two. Julian's contract being up mid season 5 where they had to vanquish him as belthezar not the source. So much would have been different if the original plan had continued. Even without Shannon.

I was looking over the IMDB trivia page after reading this and found some interesting things that I didn't know. Now I have no idea who exactly posts these and how accurate they are, but.... (Comments in italics are mine.)

The Book of Shadows is almost entirely hand-painted.

Holly Marie Combs was shot mainly in close-up and wore baggy clothes for most of season six to hide her real life pregnancy until it was written into the storyline to explain Chris' conception and birth.

The actress with the most Charmed Fan Mail is actually not one of the main stars of the show. Actress Finola Hughes who plays Prue, Piper, Phoebe and Paige's mother receives the most fan mail from Charmed series viewers.

Brian Krause who plays Leo Wyatt, Julian McMahon who played Cole Turner, and Kerr Smith, who appeared in season seven as Agent Kyle Brody, had all auditioned for the role of Inspector Andy Trudeau, who was a character played by actor Ted King in season one.

(Thinking of Julian McMahon playing Andy... OOOOOOO!!!!! Maybe he would've stayed longer and Leo could've stayed in S1 where he belonged...

In the episode 'All Halliwell's Eve' in season 3, it is revealed that the name of Phoebe's true love would begin with the letter 'C'. Later in season 8 when it was announced that the show was in it's final season they brought in the cupid character 'Coop' for Phoebe, meaning that 'Cole' was never Phoebe's true love, only her first love. The writers made the name begin with a 'C' on purpose.

Still not sure if I'm willing to give the writers that much credit...

In the first season, Prue is employed at an auction house called Bucklands. The Bucklands, Raymond and Rosemary, were considered to be the first people to bring the religion of Wicca to North America.

That's something I didn't know and that I found fascinating.

"Charmed and Dangerous" was originally meant to be the fourth season finale, with the following story lines used for the fifth season and "Long Live the Queen" was to be the 100th episode.

I assume this is the one Chillboyx meant. I *really* wish this is what we had seen...especially if it included Prue and not Paige.

During hiatus between seasons two and three, producers discussed possible storylines for season three. Executive Producer Brad Kern wanted to bring in a season long love interest for the Phoebe character who started out bad but becomes good. Fellow Executive Producer and show creator Constance M. Burge was against the idea as the character Piper already had a convoluted season long relationship storyline and she wanted to focus back to the sisterly dynamic of the show. After realizing that she wasn't going to win the debate, Burge left the series and full production reins fell to Kern.

I always thought she stayed on as a consultant for S3...maybe not...

Whenever an actor stands at the front door of the real Halliwell Manor, it is obvious that there is no central hallway in that house since a wall is right behind the actor. The inside of the real house was used for the pilot show, however every other show was filmed on a much larger set on a sound-stage.

In season six episode 12, the Leader of the Order says "I find your lack of faith disturbing." This is a quote from Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (1977), originally said by Darth Vader.

After Prue quit Buckland's Auction House, she was employed as a photographer at "415" magazine whose title is also the area code for San Francisco telephone numbers. The magazine was mentioned at other times throughout the remainder of the series including when Phoebe, as the writer of the "Ask Phoebe" column, posed for the magazine.

Piper's career change, resembles that of fictional character Louisa Trotter; the main character from the BBC series "Duchess of Duke Street." Both she and Piper initially aspired to become great chefs but wound up the proprietor of a well known establishment.

In a screening of the reality medium program 'Lisa Williams, Life Among the Dead' - Lisa was asked to visit an address to investigate a possible haunting. The house she visited was on the same street in Los Angeles as the Charmed Manor. The house can actually be seen in the background as Lisa is filmed exiting her vehicle.

Rose McGowan revealed in an interview (October 2014) that she thought she signed up for two seasons because she was told that by the producers, and was happy doing those episodes, but when the ratings kept going up and the show was renewed for more seasons, she found out she had signed for five seasons in total, which was actually the amount of time she worked on the show.

Michael Bailey Smith played multiple demons in season 3 of Charmed, including Belthazar, Shax, and one of the Grimlocks in 'All Halliwell's Eve'.

I also thought he played the original Source, but I could be wrong about that.

At the end of the pilot episode, the newspaper Prue is holding shows the same headline that inspired Robin William's character Daniel to use name Mrs Doubtfire in the titular movie. "Police Doubt Fire Was Accidental". However, it is not the same newspaper. Prue is holding the Gazette whereas Daniel was reading the Chronicle.

During the eighth season in January 2006, Spelling Television and producer Brad Kern claimed that Charmed had become the longest running TV series with all-female leads, surpassing "Laverne & Shirley" (1976). However this is not true as "The Facts of Life" (1979) actually ran for nine seasons, which is a year longer than Charmed.

Throughout the series, a common motif surrounding the character Phoebe was that should she was susceptible to giving up on love. When she summoned her future self, she encountered an unmarried, bitter woman with strong resentments; yet somehow she was willing to sacrifice her life for Cole which may have changed the future in which she never married him. Despite this, it seemed that Cole's ultimate betrayal left such a lasting impact on Phoebe that while watching her from a distance he had to intervene and indirectly convince her never to give up on love. This eventually led to her meeting Coop who became the love of her life. In summoning her future self, Phoebe changed her future of dying to save her old love and made way for her to meet a new one.

Each time Cole struggled with his evil side, he would become physically sick. (Such can be seen in each of the three seasons where Cole was featured; struggling against Belthazor, against the Source and against the collective demonic powers he gained in the Astral plain.)

Did anyone else notice this? I didn't.

Cole has on numerous occasions, saved the Charmed ones with either his demonic powers or his knowledge of the other side. From the time when he first assisted Phoebe in tackling Dantalian the Dark Priestess, Cole has often been the "Deus Ex Machina" that saved the power of three.

The Charmed Ones coven never learned that Cole had joined the Avatars years before they became aware of them. At the time, Cole realized that the Avatars needed a great power like his; possibility for his invulnerability. The way the Avatars power collective works, is by pooling great sources of power; with their commons goal as a possible "anchoring point." Like this, the collective operated almost like single body with each Avatar as limbs and organs. Their only weakness, was the ancient potion which can kill them. In the case of Cole Turner's addition to the collective, The Avatars may have been able to share in his invulnerability; eliminating the threat of the potion and making them truly unstoppable.

Billie is the only witch (apart from Wyatt) who has not died in the course of the show.

Did all the other witches the sisters run into die? I didn't think so...

During the second season on episode four, when the girls are in P3 (Piper's Club), if you listen closely you can hear the theme song to the show playing in the back ground.

Something else I never noticed...

Source: www.imdb.com/title/tt0158552/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv

[Esmeralda]

Feb 11, 2016 10:25:38 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

Feb 9, 2016 19:06:49 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

I keep looking for fanfics that show how fans think Season Four might have gone had Prue not died and had Paige never been a part of their lives, as would've happened had Shannen Doherty not been fired. Reading these posts make me want to read something like that even more.

If anyone has written or read anything like that, I'd love the link. Remember - a Season Four rewrite where all three Charmed Ones live and Paige does not exist...what we might have seen had Shannen Doherty not been fired.

I've read fanfics with the Power of Four (an idea that's abhorrent to me, since it goes against everything that is part of Charmed.) and I've read (and worked on) stories where it's Phoebe who died (which I'd prefer just so she has a better chance of remaining my Phoebs, even if it means Prue would've become Poor, Poor Pitiful Prue rather than Piper since that seems to be what Brad Kern seems to think would happen to the Oldest), but the idea of what it might have been like if *nobody* died...that idea fascinates me and I'd love to see what fans came/come up with, especially if it's realistic and doesn't include Paige.

I'm actually considering re-writing my season 4 for a few different reasons if anyone is interested. Firstly I'd like to do it like mini novels rather than scripts. Secondly, when I did it originally, I was always intending to do a season 5; whereas now I'm interesting in writing a final season for the original P3.

I know I "consider" a lot of projects, but since I already have a season written and intent to take and rework certain stories from it, I might actually get around to that one sooner rather than later

Only thing is, it might require a season 3 rewatch, because it's been a while.

So are you think about using the same setup you have in "Charmed As It Never Was" or different? I was wondering if this thread and some of your answers may have changed your mind?

Since you're almost done with Season 8 and are then going to do Season 1, maybe you should wait until you're done with Season 3. Then for sure you'll have a refresher regarding what exactly happened before...

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm thinking that too. I intend to review s1-4, so as you say I can refresh my memory with the rewatch and start then.

I'm thinking it'll probably be different, it's a long time ago since I wrote that now. Reread a few of them recently and there's quite a lot I'd do differently. I'll probably do something closer to what was actually being built towards for season 4 as has been discussed on here. But I can still use some of the standalone stories I wrote.

[Esmeralda]

Feb 11, 2016 20:28:22 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

Yeah I'm thinking that too. I intend to review s1-4, so as you say I can refresh my memory with the rewatch and start then.

I'm thinking it'll probably be different, it's a long time ago since I wrote that now. Reread a few of them recently and there's quite a lot I'd do differently. I'll probably do something closer to what was actually being built towards for season 4 as has been discussed on here. But I can still use some of the standalone stories I wrote.

*nods* Sounds good. So are you going to try to make S4 what it would've been like had Shannen not been fired or do it without Phoebe?

I recently found a story at fanfiction.net that I *really* like a lot. It includes the original three all surviving "All Hell Breaks Loose" and remaining the Charmed Ones, but includes Paige in a totally different way - rather than Sam being Paige's father, a demon is...and the Elders don't want such a being to live...so poor Leo is torn between being loyal to the Elders and loyal to Piper, who as the heart of the family has welcomed Paige in and wants to protect her, and Piper, being Piper, is upset at him for not putting her first...

Paige shimmers and also has a summoning power similar to the one she has on the show, but when the darker side of her personality (her "demon half") is in charge, the object travels in flames; when the lighter side is (her "witch half"), the object travels in bright lights.

Unfortunately the story is a Work in Progress that hasn't been updated since Dec '09! I would *so* love to know what the author had in mind... The Oracle saw another (Paige) destroying the family and I'd love to know if that's what happened or if the sisters found a way to save her. I'd also like to know how the Cole/Phoebe story would've been handled... The last episode to be used is "Size Matters" and, of course, all of the rest comes later...

So? What about the rest of you? What would you have thought of a Season Four like that? And does anyone have any ideas of how this could've been concluded?

[jdpm1991]

@es what are your thoughts on ShiningAllure, making Paige a half demon and then turning Prue into an Elder?

[Esmeralda]

Feb 12, 2016 0:07:20 GMT -5 jdpm1991 said:

@es what are your thoughts on ShiningAllure, making Paige a half demon and then turning Prue into an Elder?

I knew about him having Paige half-demon and I like how he's handling it, although I liked how this new-to-me story handled it better.

Prue an Elder is a new one on me - I can't see her becoming one of those any more than I can see her becoming a whitelighter - unless she could be a whitelighter to her sisters.

Is this a continuation of his 'The Story of Prue’s Death' series? You know how much I like that one, but I didn’t think his other trailers were part of the same series.

[jdpm1991]

Nope sadly. Have you seen his Season 8 videos for his alternate continuation of Season 4-8? they're still on his Youtube channel

youtube.com/shiningallure