rebooted
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Post by rebooted on Jul 24, 2017 2:51:52 GMT -5
Besides references to the source, do you think it was appropriate for him to have been introduced in the Season 3 finale?
I feel like the Season 3 finale would have suited to having someone from the Brotherhood or that Raynor should have been the big bad in 3x22 instead of Cole.
Thoughts?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jul 24, 2017 13:34:28 GMT -5
I think a lot of people reckon the Source should not have been shown at all and remained mysterious the same as the Elders should have to because then when he was seen he didn't seem so evil obviously black robed Source I mean not red robed Source.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 24, 2017 18:16:55 GMT -5
I agree that just like the Elders and Up There, the Source and the Underworld should've never been shown.
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 24, 2017 18:32:42 GMT -5
They should have done the same/similar thing they did with Master on Buffy. Have this great evil trapped and unable to leave. Have Source be trapped in another realm/dimension etc etc. Who does not appear, but can only send his demons after witches/charmed ones later on. Then have him released in middle of final season. Watch as he blazes trough everything. With sisters being constantly on the run. As he does unspeakable things (as much as the network allows it. This is not GoT after all). And in final episode have the Charmedones call upon every witch that came before them (not only their ancestors) summon their power, and destroy the Source!
Charmed made a mistake in reveling the "ultimate villain (as AOD said in S4 finale)". Characters like the Source are a lot more powerful/terrifying while they are not seen. When they are only legends/whispers about him. Harry Potter did almost the same thing with Voldermort. He was a lot more terrifying while he was not shown!
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 24, 2017 18:38:37 GMT -5
No, no, no! Charmed gets compared too much with Buffy as is, and always gets the short end of the stick. No way you'd want to borrow an idea from that show!
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 24, 2017 18:50:13 GMT -5
It wouldn't be actually borrowing. It's something that is used in a lot of fictional-fantasy shows. In some sense every work of fiction has similar things to another. With some being deliberate and some not. We live in day and age where originals ideas are rare. Ignore the part of Buffy in my post. And would you think it would have worked better then how it was already done in Charmed?
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craig
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Post by craig on Jul 24, 2017 21:04:37 GMT -5
I voted No Source. Just like I wanted no Elders or the Heaven or the Underworld. The story focusing on the action taking place in the middle of the two is more important. Besides if he was really the Source of all Evil, he never should of been killed. So he was better off just never appearing.
I hated the story of season 4 with the Source. I love Harry Potter, but the books/movies were able to plan details and didn't have television restrictions and worrying if it would be picked up for future seasons. That can't happen on a series, where Charmed was made up as it went on. So saving the Source for season 8 never could happen.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Jul 24, 2017 23:01:32 GMT -5
I think a lot of people reckon the Source should not have been shown at all and remained mysterious the same as the Elders should have to because then when he was seen he didn't seem so evil obviously black robed Source I mean not red robed Source. I agree that just like the Elders and Up There, the Source and the Underworld should've never been shown. Couldn't agree more dears. Exactly what I *wished* did happen. I was fine learning about the mythology of the Elders and the Source, I just didn't think we needed to see them. No, no, no! Charmed gets compared too much with Buffy as is, and always gets the short end of the stick. No way you'd want to borrow an idea from that show! Exactly so, and that would be so much worse dear. The more Charmed stayed out of Buffy's shadow, the better the show was. Too bad, because that was what made those first two season's special for me. Because it was *what* they did in season 3 and 4 that started the whole Buffy vs. Charmed debate. It wouldn't be actually borrowing. It's something that is used in a lot of fictional-fantasy shows. In some sense every work of fiction has similar things to another. With some being deliberate and some not. We live in day and age where originals ideas are rare. Ignore the part of Buffy in my post. And would you think it would have worked better then how it was already done in Charmed? If you meant The Source remaining in the Underworld, just like the Elders remaining in the Heaven and neither could ever enter the middle ground - Earth. Yes, that is something I could like. But I don't think that is what you meant dear. But you are right original ideas are rare to find these days. But the idea of the Source being locked up like Zankou was by the Source or Zankou, and being released in season 7 or 8. If that is what you meant - I think it could work dear, but I'm not so sure it could happen on the series. With *how* they wrote season 4 without knowing if it would get a season 5, I don't know if it could. |
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 25, 2017 11:09:14 GMT -5
It wouldn't be actually borrowing. It's something that is used in a lot of fictional-fantasy shows. In some sense every work of fiction has similar things to another. With some being deliberate and some not. We live in day and age where originals ideas are rare. Ignore the part of Buffy in my post. And would you think it would have worked better then how it was already done in Charmed? If you meant The Source remaining in the Underworld, just like the Elders remaining in the Heaven and neither could ever enter the middle ground - Earth. Yes, that is something I could like. But I don't think that is what you meant dear. But the idea of the Source being locked up like Zankou was by the Source or Zankou, and being released in season 7 or 8. If that is what you meant - I think it could work dear, but I'm not so sure it could happen on the series. With *how* they wrote season 4 without knowing if it would get a season 5, I don't know if it could. One of the major problems that both tv shows and movie face is. Why does the ultimate bag guy waits for the good characters to become stronger before going after them. It was the same in Charmed. I was ok with that in S1 since it took Rex and Hannah to confirm they were the charmeones. After that, I see no reasons for the Source not to go after them immediately (or first send Shax after them) while they are still new in craft and no where powerful enough to stop him. Cut the roots immediately instead of waiting. They were after all the charmed ones. Only witches with power to destroy him. So I actually agree that Source shouldn't have been shown in a way. That is until the very last season. Have Source be trapped/sealed/unable to leave etc etc the underworld/another realm/dimension etc. Have him actually smart and concoct a plan that will take enormous amount of time so he can be released. Heck with smart writing you can even have sisters being the ones having a hand in his release! Also They should have spent more time on Source backstory. What was he? How he came to be? How does his powers/essence work? I agree with you. Since we know S4 was rushed with Phoebe being evil story. |
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Post by erikamarie on Jul 26, 2017 4:41:35 GMT -5
He'ld have remained a dark and disturbing shadow, the most powerful evil that plots and sends assassins without bother to ntervene personally
Otherwise the writers'ld conceive the Source as a demon consumed by too strong powers, such as Gollum withthe Ring: this would justify the birth of his Charmed Ones obsession
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Post by universalcharmed on Jul 26, 2017 21:00:24 GMT -5
Considering how big the Source and Elders were to the show I think they needed to be shown eventually.
Also considering most shows get renewed Season by Season there is never a right or wrong time to show something. If you wait to long your show might be cancelled before you get a chance to show them. You can also show something super early because you thought your show would be cancelled but went on for 5 more seasons.
I would also like to add that most villains from Season 1-3 aren't memorable so seeing the Source was a huge plus. It created a memorable enemy that paved the way for more memorable enemies. Cole became an iconic character in Season 4-5 thanks to the source. Without it Cole wouldn't have really had a storyline besides being Phoebe love interest.
Same with Leo and the Elders. The most iconic Leo seasons are 5-7. Thanks to the Elders his Storyline took off.
The Elders and Source taking a more active role allowed for more stories to be told.
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Jul 26, 2017 21:23:54 GMT -5
I agree that just like the Elders and Up There, the Source and the Underworld should've never been shown. Yep, that might have been better for the show in the long run. Especially because the Elders acted like demons later on, and I roll my eyes when angels who were suppose to be good had powers to harm Leo in season 7. Now this question I wondered about. How could the sisters even survive going up into the heavens, shouldn't they die from lack of air. The same way, I laugh when the sisters could go to the underworld, and Phoebe had reception on her phone. Unless these Heavens and Underworld are truly not the real deal, and more like another dimension or place that key members use to do their jobs. |
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 27, 2017 12:28:13 GMT -5
I agree that just like the Elders and Up There, the Source and the Underworld should've never been shown. Yep, that might have been better for the show in the long run. Especially because the Elders acted like demons later on, and I roll my eyes when angels who were suppose to be good had powers to harm Leo in season 7. Now this question I wondered about. How could the sisters even survive going up into the heavens, shouldn't they die from lack of air. The same way, I laugh when the sisters could go to the underworld, and Phoebe had reception on her phone. Unless these Heavens and Underworld are truly not the real deal, and more like another dimension or place that key members use to do their jobs. Bolded: I never thought that Up There/Underworld were the real Heaven/Hell. Just another dimension where whitelighters/demons reside. Also in S3 during Piper's first wedding. Grams says she is above them (Up There/Elders). I always though that was the real after life. Beyond where whitelighters are. Also all whitelighters/Elders were humans at one point. So I think the real angels were never shown in the show. From the script. See bolded! S3E02: Magic Hour |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 27, 2017 17:12:01 GMT -5
I would think that if they didn't call whitelighters angels at the beginning. Had they never used the words Angel or Demon, I'd think that Up There (which I think *is* supposed to be "Up There", since Leo always orbed Up when he went Up There) and the Underworld weren't supposed to be Heaven and Hell. But I do think that's what they originally meant them to be, with Rex and Hannah's boss being Satan not the Source and them being vanquished to Hell, not the Underworld. Had they shown that the Source's Lair was was *not* in the Underworld but in Hell, and had they shown that anyone who is alive and tried to go either Up There or Down Below couldn't exist, then I'd agree with you.
As is, I don't think Heaven and Hell existed in Kern's Charmedverse. I agree that the souls of the dead were somewhere else, but again, I don't think they were in Heaven, just on the Other Side - lots of religions have that and theirs are nothing like the Christian Heaven, just like the Demonic Wasteland in nothing like the Christian Hell. It's easiest to accept Charmed as is (especially S4-8, the alternate-universe spin-off) by pretending that in that universe, Heaven and Hell and God and Satan and angels and devils (not demons) don't exist; that the Angels of Destiny and the Angels of Death might be called that, but aren't what Christians would consider angels, but beings that exist in a different dimension, totally separate from both Up There and the Other Side.
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 27, 2017 17:32:08 GMT -5
With so much difference between S1-3 / S4-S8. I can agree with that point of view. Seams the original premise was changed. And why I personally have no problems with changing things. It's how it was written that it bugged me. Having Source in black hood? Ok. But write him much smarter. S3 Source didn't care for sisters powers. His plan was. Reverse time. Keep Cole. Kill Phoebe. And let Shax kill Piper and Prue.
I also remember one line from S3E22. When Leo orbs to Cole and Phoebe. Cole informs that that even the Source came there, due to the magic being exposed. Implying that Source is not residing in Underworld. But probably in Hell as you said!
Here is the scene:
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 27, 2017 17:42:31 GMT -5
OH! I'd forgotten about that line. Had they kept the Source from S3 I'd probably agree with you totally that the Underworld and Elderland are actually Down Below and Up There, but not actually Heaven and Hell, which, of course, are neither.
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Post by universalcharmed on Jul 27, 2017 23:53:49 GMT -5
Never on the show have the underworld been said to be hell and the upper regions to be heaven by the beings that reside there. Charmed has never really taken the stance of Christianity when dealing with good beings or evil ones. Instead of Satan we got the source. No Lucifer or Archangels. It takes a more Greek response to mytho.
Also the source didn't want the charmed ones powers he wanted them dead because they were getting to powerful and presented a threat. Then the Seer saw the charmed ones kill the Source in which that is when he went after their powers to make them vulnerable and weak. His goal from Seasons 3-4 never changed. He still wanted the charmed ones dead and Cole back which is why he sent bounty hunters after him.
Most of the canon things we got on the Elders and The Source come from later seasons. On thing we learn about the Elders in Season 1-3 is that they reside "up there". They are high ranking Whitelighters. Also information on how Whitelighters have to follow rules created by the Elders. Only thing we learned about the Source was that he ruled the Underworld and was powerful.
Seasons 4-8 doesn't actually contradicts any of that.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Jul 28, 2017 12:08:08 GMT -5
At one time, the Source would have appeared anyway. All good needs a bad balance and in Charmed, it was the Source. In whatever form avaiable.
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sky1
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Post by sky1 on Jul 28, 2017 17:09:30 GMT -5
Also the source didn't want the charmed ones powers he wanted them dead because they were getting to powerful and presented a threat. Then the Seer saw the charmed ones kill the Source in which that is when he went after their powers to make them vulnerable and weak. His goal from Seasons 3-4 never changed. He still wanted the charmed ones dead and Cole back which is why he sent bounty hunters after him. Here is the thing, and I know what people will say, since I do think the same. It's because of plot. But Source could have killed Piper in Brain Dead. Instead he wanted their powers. Which doesn't make sense, since he is more powerful then sisters. It's not just P3 that is used against him. But power/magic from their every ancestors, starting from Melinda. This was way before Seer's vision of his death. Also why would Source tempt Paige in S4E01/02? He could have just killed her, and it would be all over. That's why I make distinction between S3 Source and S4 Source. S3 Source plan was very good. He to wished to fix the exposure made by sisters and Shax. So he devised a plan. Reverse time. Have demons take Cole down/captive (for some reason he still wanted Cole alive. But we never find out why due Shannen leaving). Kill Phoebe. And let Shax do the rest. And his plan worked in a way. Prue was gone because of it. Of course due to behind the scenes stuff. We never saw how Cole, Phoebe and Leo escaped....sigh.... |
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Post by universalcharmed on Jul 28, 2017 19:59:10 GMT -5
Also the source didn't want the charmed ones powers he wanted them dead because they were getting to powerful and presented a threat. Then the Seer saw the charmed ones kill the Source in which that is when he went after their powers to make them vulnerable and weak. His goal from Seasons 3-4 never changed. He still wanted the charmed ones dead and Cole back which is why he sent bounty hunters after him. Here is the thing, and I know what people will say, since I do think the same. It's because of plot. But Source could have killed Piper in Brain Dead. Instead he wanted their powers. Which doesn't make sense, since he is more powerful then sisters. It's not just P3 that is used against him. But power/magic from their every ancestors, starting from Melinda. This was way before Seer's vision of his death. Also why would Source tempt Paige in S4E01/02? He could have just killed her, and it would be all over. That's why I make distinction between S3 Source and S4 Source. S3 Source plan was very good. He to wished to fix the exposure made by sisters and Shax. So he devised a plan. Reverse time. Have demons take Cole down/captive (for some reason he still wanted Cole alive. But we never find out why due Shannen leaving). Kill Phoebe. And let Shax do the rest. And his plan worked in a way. Prue was gone because of it. Of course due to behind the scenes stuff. We never saw how Cole, Phoebe and Leo escaped....sigh.... This was legit all explained in the show. The Source couldn't go directly after the charmed Ones or he would break the Covenant of good and Evil. There was rules put in place for this. The Source then broke those rules to go after the Charmed ones when they became a threat to him. Also you are talking about a plan to help with the exposure versus a plan to kill the Charmed Ones. Two different things that should have been handled two different ways. Also The Source plan to Kill the Phoebe, Piper and Paige was working until Cole showed up. |
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