The Charmed Spin-Off Thread--Part 2

[spiritsas]

I think what happened is that they got a last minute reprieve because Kern was able to sell the WB on a lower budget. He simply cut corners and "magical powers" use, and, of course Brian Krause after 10 episodes. On the other side of the sell for season 8 was a fast moving plan to get S8 going, as they thought they were done after S7, which is why he killed them off (faking their deaths) in the first place. I'm not sure how much pressure Kern was under, but I believe he was forced/trying to draw in a younger audience. Kaley C must have been available and somewhat of a draw from her time on Eight Simple Rules. Problem was either she or her part was written to be too annoying, initially. I think she got better at the role, growing into it, but the ratings were still flat, the main cast's contracts were up, the WB was merging itself out of existence, and the new CW was not interested in even returning his phone calls. So, ended Charmed and the spinoff concept using Billie.

I don't think the option for introducing Chris and Wyatt was viable due to the other CW show, Supernatural. Too much testosterone laddened shows with brothers.

[whitelightertony]

I think what happened is that they got a last minute reprieve because Kern was able to sell the WB on a lower budget. He simply cut corners and "magical powers" use, and, of course Brian Krause after 10 episodes.

No. That's not quite the way it happened. Kern never wanted to minimize Brian's role in the show. That was a mandate directly from the WB - - one stipulation in agreeing to renew the show for an eighth season was that Brian had to be written out after Episode 8.10 (how Leo would get written out of the actual storyline was totally up to Kern).

Additionally, the lower budget was another stipulation from the WB, and a bit of a surprise to Kern. He was at the zoo with his daughter when he got the call that the show had been picked up for a full 22 episodes (Kern was thinking they might get a pick-up only for 13), and then he was shocked to hear that the WB was demanding they reduce the show's budget by 20%. Kern had to downplay the characters' magical powers in the first half of the season because of the budget cut mandated by the WB (in order to save money, so they could produce a proper series finale and lure Brian back to appear in the final episode).

I'm not sure how much pressure Kern was under, but I believe he was forced/trying to draw in a younger audience. Kaley C must have been available and somewhat of a draw from her time on Eight Simple Rules.

My guess is that, during the Spring of 2005, when Kern was trying to sell the WB execs on picking up the show for a Season 8 (he spoke of this publicly, to fans, during late-Season 7), one of the ideas he pitched was the concept of bringing in a new, younger witch as a series regular, whom the Charmed Ones could mentor. He probably suggested that, if this character caught on in popularity, the WB might be able to get a built-in spinoff of some sort based on her character. Obviously, the WB liked that idea.

Kaley herself wasn't hired until the Summer of 2005. They were apparently only considering a few high-profile actresses in that age range to cast as Billie, and Kaley ended up being their pick due to her fitting Billie's personality the best -- as well as the fact that 8 Simple Rules had just been cancelled one month earlier, so obviously she was available.

[roseyc]

That was a mistake in my opinion! If the WB demanded that Leo be written out and a new younger witch be added he should have folded the tent and said if that's what you want then I'm done. Kern played patsy to the network. Instead he should have brought in the storyline of Chris and Wyatt and the new fans that those characters brought would have saved the show and paved the way for the spin-off. But he didn't and we now the know the rest of the story. That move left a bad taste in a lot of fans mind and I know it did in mine. Leo and Piper after Prue left was the heart of the show. When they brought in their future sons and became more apparent that they were what fans wanted and Kern and the WB ignored to their demise. The WB never had any foresight and neither does this new network. In looking back they should done only 13 episode to wrap up season 7 and instead of bringing in this mess with Billie and Christy if they wouldn't going to continue. Season 8 was a total mess. There were a few episodes that were ok but for most part the season was horrendous. Kern is a good writer but as a show runner he lacks a great deal.

[charmedbabe03]

i dnt think ur ryt. series 8 was so ace it was a new twist to the whole charmed story! the idea of bringing billie in was so that it would give the charmed ones a bit of a break. also the last episode was such a good way 2 end it! i hope they do a reunion episode that'll be like soo kwl!

roseyc said:

That was a mistake in my opinion! If the WB demanded that Leo be written out and a new younger witch be added he should have folded the tent and said if that's what you want then I'm done. Kern played patsy to the network. Instead he should have brought in the storyline of Chris and Wyatt and the new fans that those characters brought would have saved the show and paved the way for the spin-off. But he didn't and we now the know the rest of the story. That move left a bad taste in a lot of fans mind and I know it did in mine. Leo and Piper after Prue left was the heart of the show. When they brought in their future sons and became more apparent that they were what fans wanted and Kern and the WB ignored to their demise. The WB never had any foresight and neither does this new network. In looking back they should done only 13 episode to wrap up season 7 and instead of bringing in this mess with Billie and Christy if they wouldn't going to continue. Season 8 was a total mess. There were a few episodes that were ok but for most part the season was horrendous. Kern is a good writer but as a show runner he lacks a great deal.

[whitelightertony]

If the WB demanded that Leo be written out and a new younger witch be added he should have folded the tent and said if that's what you want then I'm done. Kern played patsy to the network. Instead he should have brought in the storyline of Chris and Wyatt and the new fans that those characters brought would have saved the show and paved the way for the spin-off. But he didn't and we now the know the rest of the story. That move left a bad taste in a lot of fans mind and I know it did in mine.

That's pretty much what the WB stipulated. Writing Leo out of the series was non-negotiable, and Kern was the one who had to figure out how to do it within the context of the story. I thought Kern did the best he could with the specific task of writing Leo out, given the unenviable position the WB had put him in.

Now, I personally would have done things a lot differently with Season 8, had I been in Kern's position. For example, I would have introduced more passive forms of Phoebe's powers (due to the budget constraints) remanifesting themselves, and I would have tied the Dex and Coop relationships more closely to the sisters' new lifestyle. I also would have mapped out a much more coherent arc of episodes for Billie and Christy, so it would have become flexible enough for a possible spinoff.

One thing I would have tried to do, that Kern clearly didn't, was to get Wes and Drew back (budget permitting, of course) - - and have multiple episodes involving Future Wyatt and Future Chris returning due to how the Charmed Ones' destiny influences the future. Through this storyline, I would have tried to give the audience a sensible and coherent explanation as to the fate of the Chris whom we came to know and love in Season 6 (and how the new future timelines related to his experiences).

Also, Brian was very understanding and gracious of the WB's decision, and he wanted to see the series go on so that our leading ladies along with the studio crew would have one more full year of work (reportedly, Brian was the most popular and most widely well-liked Charmed cast member, among the crew). Brian even assured Kern that he would definitely come back for the series finale, as long as he wasn't already committed to another project during the final episode's filming.

[roseyc]

Well, despite the opinions season 8 was a ratings disaster and not a great way to end this novel kind of series. The theory if I was Kern, well I don't hold that because I am not and that is what if conjecture. For a character such as Billie to be hated as much as she was was not a good twist since the series barely survived after season 8. Leo was such a beloved character further alienated fans against her character and the storyline. Phoebe had some haters but she had lot of supporters as well. Billie haters was running 3-1 against her which for a new character was bad for which Kern surprisingly didn't notify fans of this move before the season and when it became apparent that Leo was being written out the steam of the season and the series lost its steam and finally its life. I'm wasn't a big fan of Kern. He didn't write all of the episode but he's the showrunner and all the episodes have to be under his guidness no matter who writes them.

[spiritsas]

WT - Thanks for the update on the WB requirements given to Kern. I hadn't known that dropping Krause, after 10 episodes, was a specific WB stipulation. Or that he was told to cut the budget by 20%. Were those two items linked? Obviously, they save money on Leo's salary, but that's only a small percentage drop, per episode. So, I'm presuming Kern still had to cut more (hence the lack of a lot of special effects in the first half of the season (8).

There is still a nagging question many fans asked when they heard Leo had to be cut. Why not cut some other guest roles instead? They brought in a full time character, KC, to play Billie and I'm sure she negotiated a reasonable salary based on her success on 8 Simple Rules (or maybe they got her fairly cheaply as she needed a job). They also brought in the Christy character, for the latter half of the season. I understand, they have to have other characters to make a story, but it does strike me as odd that the WB specifically singled out Krause to go. I'm guessing they felt they had to kill off a starring character to be fair and it couldn't be any of the sisters.

Also, I had heard the young witch idea to mentor was Kern's, but KC was, in most people's opinion, a poor choice. She was too "airy" a character. Initially, she had some real moves, but was simply not strong enough a character to play against the sisters. Perhaps, of the choices available, she was the most available and willing to take the role.

I also think you're correct that Kern missed a bigger opportunity to map in Wyatt and Chris into the story more. They could have worked with Billie and represented a stronger spin off concept. With Christy dead, there was no "sister" concept to take forward. But causing adult Wyatt and Chris to have semipermanent roles in the present, would have made another trio of powerful witches to keep the story going. AM and RM have moved on, but HMC would no doubt have guest appearances, possibly to bail out her kids and Billie on ocassion. It could have worked, but we'll never know. Without the Charmed Sons concept being worked now, there's little chance for a spin off next year. Perhaps the summer or year after. And, if they're smart, they can do it on TNT or another station, just not the CW.

[whitelightertony]

WT - Thanks for the update on the WB requirements given to Kern. I hadn't known that dropping Krause, after 10 episodes, was a specific WB stipulation. Or that he was told to cut the budget by 20%. Were those two items linked? Obviously, they save money on Leo's salary, but that's only a small percentage drop, per episode. So, I'm presuming Kern still had to cut more (hence the lack of a lot of special effects in the first half of the season (8).

The way Kern described it in The Book of Three: Vol. 2, Brian's departure after Episode 8.10 and the overall budget reduction of 20% were two separately delineated, non-negotiable stipulations mandated by the WB. I'm not sure if the money saved on Brian's salary was factored into the 20% budget reduction, or if Kern had to cut costs by 20% on top of subtracting the money Brian would have been making in the ten episodes he was being written out of.

There is still a nagging question many fans asked when they heard Leo had to be cut. Why not cut some other guest roles instead?

I understand, they have to have other characters to make a story, but it does strike me as odd that the WB specifically singled out Krause to go. I'm guessing they felt they had to kill off a starring character to be fair and it couldn't be any of the sisters.

I'm honestly not certain what the WB's rationale was for dropping Brian from the show for the last half of the season. Kern never really gave an explanation for that.

They brought in a full time character, KC, to play Billie and I'm sure she negotiated a reasonable salary based on her success on 8 Simple Rules (or maybe they got her fairly cheaply as she needed a job). They also brought in the Christy character, for the latter half of the season.

I don't know what Kaley's salary was, but Kern said that the WB was receptive to the idea of bringing in a new, younger female witch as a series regular so they could have the option of building a spinoff around her, as well as taking some of the workload off of Alyssa, Holly, and Rose. Ironically, despite the 20% budget reduction, Alyssa/Holly/Rose all received pay raises during Season 8 - - even though the three of them reportedly offered to take cuts in their own salaries if it meant keeping Brian on the show full-time.

It seems to me they could have kept Alyssa's, Holly's, and Rose's salaries the same as in Season 7 - - and then used the money that they ended up adding to the three stars' paychecks, instead, to bring back Dorian Gregory for some guest appearances near the end of the season.

As for Christy, it was obviously always part of the plan to bring Christy in sometime during the second half of the season, since she would have likely been a part of the hypothetical spinoff if it had happend.

Oh, and Kern voluntarily cut his own salary to make room in the budget.

Also, I had heard the young witch idea to mentor was Kern's, but KC was, in most people's opinion, a poor choice. She was too "airy" a character. Initially, she had some real moves, but was simply not strong enough a character to play against the sisters. Perhaps, of the choices available, she was the most available and willing to take the role.

I don't know who else Kaley was up against for the role of Billie, but apparently they were only considering 2-4 young actresses in that age range.

The idea to write Billie in did seem to be Kern's idea, but mainly as a way of getting the WB to pick up the show for an eighth season.

I also think you're correct that Kern missed a bigger opportunity to map in Wyatt and Chris into the story more. They could have worked with Billie and represented a stronger spin off concept.

It's funny you should say that...a few months before Charmed was cancelled, I was proposing that if they green-lighted the spinoff with Kaley, they should bring Wes and Drew into it and find a way to have Billie, Wyatt, and Chris team up...practically everyone here was screaming at me: NO!!! Billie sucks!!! Kaley sucks!!! I want a spinoff focusing ONLY on Wyatt and Chris!!!

Granted, I think a Wyatt-and-Chris centric spinoff could have a lot of potential, but some people here were going a little overboard with their ideal vision for it.

For example, someone here said something to the extent of: "It would be just like Supernatural...only different."

Gee, could ya get anymore redundant?

With Christy dead, there was no "sister" concept to take forward.

I think the writers decided to kill Christy only once the Billie spinoff was officially a dead concept. If the Billie spinoff would have been picked up, I highly doubt Christy would have died in "Forever Charmed": the spinoff would have starred Kaley and Marnette.

But causing adult Wyatt and Chris to have semipermanent roles in the present, would have made another trio of powerful witches to keep the story going. AM and RM have moved on, but HMC would no doubt have guest appearances, possibly to bail out her kids and Billie on ocassion. It could have worked, but we'll never know.

See my above comments, regarding the skittish reactions I received when I proposed the Wyatt/Chris/Billie spinoff idea.

Without the Charmed Sons concept being worked now, there's little chance for a spin off next year. Perhaps the summer or year after. And, if they're smart, they can do it on TNT or another station, just not the CW.

I still think a TV reunion movie - - many, many years from now - - would be the most likely scenario.

[roseyc]

Most tv reunion shows are ususally turn out horribly

[whitelightertony]

Most tv reunion shows are ususally turn out horribly

Well, it would depend on their ability to get a good writer - - and the returning cast members' ability to recognize a good script.

[spiritsas]

WT- Thanks again for your insights. I think we're in agreement as to what might have worked, if the CW had had the same insights or at least believed in the show. I hadn't known the main cast had gotten raises, which were probably just part of the multi-year contract they were all on. (we kept hearing how RM was quoted as saying the contracts were up). Apparently, the WB felt the need to make room for another character by killing off an existing one and fixated on Leo. Since Kern always wanted to bring Leo back for the finale (his role in the Kill Billie Vol 2 was incredibly minor, with no lines), it doesn't seem like he cared whether or not the spin off was picked up. Leo was going to be there either way. That seemed to be the buzz as soon as it was learned that he was to be in only 10 episodes. Krause became a guest star in a show he had been on for seven and half years (even if he wasn't in every episode during that time).

Still, I do appreciate your section by section response to my rambling. I also think you're right in that the TV reunion movie, say 5 or more years down the road, may be the most viable course. Since the WB never really merchandised Charmed a lot (there was some, I don't think it ever became popular and the trinkets they did issue were mundane, at best, and not exactly collectibles, but that's my opinion), there is little in the way of marketing devices to keep the memory of the show alive, other than the books and DVDs. Unlike many other franchises, which had collectible dolls and such, Charmed may once again suffer due to the lack of support the WB gave it. The only other saving grace is that with 8 full seasons, TNT will show the reruns for the next couple of years, at least. So, long as the advertisers keep paying for commercial time.

So, if in a few years we find RM, AM, and HMC all without nothing on their plates, we may yet see this movie. I only hope all of the other actors are still around. It would not be the same without Brian and they would need to make sure the other husbands, are still available. It would be great if many of the other characters are around, but it would depend on the nature of the story. I would not count on SD ever contemplating a reunion movie, unless she really needed the money. Again, just my humble opinion.

[spiritsas]

PS. I'm sure many of you have heard about the new upcoming show in the fall, The Bionic Woman. It took quite a few years, and there were some movies in there somewhere, but they're actually bringing it back as a show. Hollywood just loves to recycle shows and Female leads are hot right now. Which is why it is so wierd they canned the show AM had shot for her pilot because there were too many female lead shows.

[roseyc]

I know that most of you want as a spin-off is the Charmed Sons. I would also like it too. Not as much as if the Charmedones would have continued. But that didn't happen, considering the possibilities. The Charmed Sons are very remote. But think about the recast. How many sequels you watched when they replaced the original character just to see if the new person was as good or bad. The curosity will attract viewers but won't keep them there. The story and the substance of new cast will keep them. On the surface from those from a far this type of show most consider this a fluff show and if they recast with actresses with no substance then it will be another flop and will be forgotten as quickly as it began. But think about the concept of a new Pru and and a new Piper and a new Phoebe and a new Paige. Most will say No Way! there will never be another Piper except Holly Marie. Don't get me wrong she was very good. But this genre can go on and the actors that played those characters have moved on. But Charmed is not just one person. It's the characters that can't be replaced. When it all comes down to it.

[apollo223]

i think drew wuld b cool 2 c how hed go on his lyf but i dnt lik wes he just seems so ....happy ALL THE DAM TYM i mean wipe that smile off ur face 4 a sec and say something serious...even when he was evil i didnt belive his character it just seems like they were tryin too hard to distinguish between evil and good wyatt wen in reality the change wouldnt have been that drastic u noe? plus i dont think u can make a charmed sequel w.o the charmed ones...it just dosent feel real that the two boys would leave the manor and book of shadows

[spiritsas]

Rose: You are entirely correct. Particularly in the point you make about the show being not one person but a group of characters, which can't be replaced. Which is why many remakes fall flat. That's why it would really have to be it's own show, with new characters and cast, and, most importantly, a new audience to watch. Since all us old Charmed fans will not see it as the same in any way. That's what they're doing with the Bionic Woman recreation. New cast, new ideas, etc. They only thing they are borrowing from the old show is the concept of replacing limbs with better metal ones.

A new Charmed, one day when we all don't care as much any more (more than ten years from now) will do the same, if it ever happens at all.

[pipercharmedphreak]

i am not too sure how a spin-off sits with me yet. i think i still care about the show too much to decide!

[roseyc]

But in time the old show, which left many of us empty with the way it was finished still remains a novel concept. The Charmed Sons is not going to happen. The actors though beloved in the series are not known actors and haven't done much since their minimal roles in Charmed. Charmed let's face it was about three witches with history beyond their mortal beings. The genre showed three YOUNG females who were very ATTRACTIVE to stunningly BEAUTIFUL. Which Shannen Doherty was the most known followed by Alyssa Milano who was known from her childhood acting experiences mostly and brief stint on Melrose Place. Holly Marie the most unknown became the most liked in the end of the three. Which can be the same if the Charmed would be recast. The way I would do is have the show in three parts. Past, Present and Future. Which will break itself away from the original. So many stories still to tell and the ones that weren't told in the past. I think it has growth potential but with any possibilities they would have superb writers and showrunner and reputable actress that are attractive. Think about the cast notices and whom will be cast let say Prue. Still it's remote but oh the possibilities

[Hansemand]

There has been Manny ideas for a spin-off with Chris & Wyatt as the main characters in the series.
Looking at the intro for Charmed itself while running it on slow motion, then the original delivers a few ideas itself:
HARDMED: Chris & Wyatt, the magical doctors
MARCHED: Chris & Wyatt, the magical soldiers
EDCHEMA: Chris & Wyatt, the magical scientists
Take a look for yourself
www.flickr.com/photos/14745154@N05/1617098556/
(copy and paste @n05/1617098556/ into browser after opening link)

[carlmccabe]

you got that right