Piper's daughter or not???

[K. Aabye]

I think you're the one who doesn't get it. I have shown a picture of Katie. Take a look at that and compare it with the picture in the scene! Jesus. But okay, believe what you want to believe.

[Fourever Charmed]

This debate is so ridiculous to me. It's like the debate over Global Warming: at first people said it wasn't happening and denied it completely. In this case, first people claimed that the same girl who played Phoebe's "Ladybug" (Sierra Paris) was the same girl who played Piper's daughter (Kathleen Teresa Scott), or as they said back when that idiotic argument was going on, "the girl in the shot with Piper's family." For GW, once that the idea that it wasn't happening was proven to be untrue, people now claim it's earth doing it's natural thing. For Charmed, people are now claiming that it still could be some other cousin, or "been a friend," (since it obviously wasn't one of the twins and Phoebe only had three daughters [only two of whom appeared], and none of whom were played by Katie) which is even more ridiculous, because why would a female friend sleepover at Piper's house with Wyatt and Chris and be given a pink lunchbox from Piper?

I agree that Kern was an @$$ and I think he purposely didn't state the name of Piper's daughter or the name of Piper's granddaughter but made a point to for the males, because as we've seen, he likes male ego boosting in Charmed. But in the context of "Forever Charmed," as whitelightertony already said, that child is Piper's daughter. It does not make sense to show each of their individual families and then show Piper's with a random cousin (or worse "friend").

As for the name issue... Piper could've changed her mind (though it's unlikely). What is far more likely is that Phoebe had "Ladybug" first, since she was so fired up about getting pregnant and "almost missing" her chance, and named her child Prudence after their sister, and by the time Piper got pregnant, she named her daughter Melinda, as she'd originally planned to pre-Prue's death.

Anyway, despite Kern's sexism and inability to write, that scene does show Piper's daughter. I think the biggest issue here is that some people didn't want Piper to have Melinda after she had Wyatt and Chris (especially a lot of people who wanted a Wyatt & Chris spinoff) and a lot of people hated the idea of all three sisters having three children each.

But I'm not going to argue about this. It's Global Warming Charmed-style, and obviously people aren't going to change their minds, even if the answer is right in front of them.

[K. Aabye]

Thank you! My reaction to your reply was "And it was said!" Because you just wrote the most correct thing ever. Why would a cousin sleep over at Piper's when it was in Piper's scene to see how her future went? And the lunchbox, would Phoebe pack her daughter's pink lunchbox with the pj's. No, don't think so. The lunchbox doesn't prove anything, I know but I agree very much with Fourever Charmed

[Ashiee Pie]

i think that girl you see in forever charmed was her daugfhter because in season two they go into the future and she has a daughter melinda.
yes they did only show photos of poeple in the last episode but that is probable because they were in the script at the time, not sure really though.

[spiritsas]

Not that my vote counts for more than anyone else's, but I've always thought the girl must be Piper's third child. The simple symetry of the three sisters each having three children is very evident. Phoebe has three daughters, Paige has two and a son, and Piper has the reverse; two sons and one daughter. It's perfectly symmetrical while still being heavy on the female offspring side. The preponderance of the evidence, plus knowing the show and that Kern wanted a happy fairy tale ending, makes it highly likely it was Piper's daughter. As for her name, less sure about that other than what Kern may or may not have been quoted as saying.

Another question is this: Are all the children of the Charmed Ones, Charmed themselves? The implication is that Wyatt was, but it's unclear if it applied to all of them.

Technically, E is correct in that they didn't name her or note her relationship to Piper, but Kern (like him or not) said it was his intention. You can argue with the Executive Producer and author of the episode if you like, but I don't see much point in that.

[Esmeralda]

Keep in mind that I also think the girl is Piper's daughter, and I LOVE 4Ever's idea that Phoebe would've had her daughter, Prue, before Piper had her daughter, Melinda Prudence. I have a hunch that will eventually become fanon even tho it is *NOT* (and can never be) canon.

I will insist that no matter what Kern says was his intentions, since he did NOT find it important enough to name the girl as Piper's daughter, if fans want a Charmed Sons spinoff without a sister for the boys, they are within their rights to write their own fiction and virtual series that way--they do NOT have to include a sister for the boys. One of my favorite virtual series, DESTINED: The Charmed Sons, has it done that way and the fact that Piper and Leo only have the two boys works beautifully; it feels like it's the way it should be--with the Twice-Blessed Child and his brat of a younger brother, that keeps them plenty occupied as is!

[Assassin Witch]

May 11, 2008 3:29:59 GMT -5 K. Aabye said:

I still believe Piper had her daughter. It's common sense.

No it's not.

Es argues my thoughts very well, even though she believes the girl IS Piper's, while I do not.

And, like 4ever stated, "This debate is so ridiculous to me."

I have my opinion. The rest of you have yours. I won't change mine, and neither will you.

[K. Aabye]

I don't understand why you won't believe Melinda is Piper's daughter.. Is it because you don't think it fits into the series or is it because you just won't believe it? Have you seen the previous messages I have posted with pictures? I have private messages from Kathleen's mother and her. Not that it matters much. I just can't imagine why people still believe that girl isn't Piper's.

[Fourever Charmed]

May 13, 2008 2:31:55 GMT -5 K. Aabye said:

I just can't imagine why people still believe that girl isn't Piper's.

I think they do get that she's Piper's, and I believe that's the problem. I think a lot of people don't like the idea of Piper having Melinda after she already had Wyatt and Chris, and a lot of people hate the fanfictiony "three children each" storyline, and in my honest opinion, I think that's the reason this debate exists: because people get that the girl is Piper's daughter and they just don't want her to be, and thus attempt to explain her away as a random cousin or friend, despite that it makes less than no sense.

[Esmeralda]

May 13, 2008 2:31:55 GMT -5 K. Aabye said:

I don't understand why you won't believe Melinda is Piper's daughter.. Is it because you don't think it fits into the series or is it because you just won't believe it? Have you seen the previous messages I have posted with pictures? I have private messages from Kathleen's mother and her. Not that it matters much. I just can't imagine why people still believe that girl isn't Piper's.

Melinda, I *have* seen your pictures and I *do* believe that you have talked to Kathleen's mother. If those pictures that you posted were shown on the show rather than just the little girl's back, then no one could have any chance of thinking that the little girl is anyone but Piper's daughter (and remember that I *do* think she is; just that her name's *not* Melinda unless Phoebe had a Prue first). There is no doubt in my mind that Kathleen was told that she was playing Piper's daughter Melinda. So, yes, I've heard and understood everything that you have said.

Here's the part you haven't heard me say. Technically, until another character speaks a character's name, that character does not have a name no matter what it says in the scripts. If someone saying her name ends up on the cutting room floor, she has NO name! So the little girl has NO official name, just like Phoebe and Paige's daughters. Each fan has the right to name each girl whatever they want, no matter what it says in the script or what Kern has said, the same way they can't name the boys anything but Wyatt, Chris and Henry, Jr.

Ditto for her being Piper's daughter. The scene only had us ASSUME that the girl was Piper's daughter; it never had Piper say that she was, the way both Phoebe and Paige did, and the picture on the wall showed Wyatt and Chris, it did not show a picture of Wyatt, Chris and their little sister.. These are facts that you can not deny and they are the reason why the little girl as their sister may eventually become fanon, but can never become canon, no matter what it says in the script, what was told the actors or what Kern later says or writes.

These are the reasons that fans (like Assassin Witch) who want a spinoff called The Charmed Sons use to say that she is not their sister. They will grudgingly accept cousins because they have to, but they will NOT under any circumstances accept a little sister because they think that she will take away from their stars, especially when Kern gave them this opening.

Now, personally, I don't think the spinoff will ever exist, but if those fans want to leave Piper's daughter out of their fanfiction or their virtual series, they are just as much in the right to do so as fans who include her in theirs and name her Melinda or Prue or Patty or Griselda, for that matter--the same way they can name any of the other female cousins whatever they want. This is all thanks to Kern very simply not caring enough to take the time to let them have a name, the way he did with Henry, Jr.--a male named after his father Kern's final last bit of making the show male-centric rather than female-centric as it began and as it should've been.

[Assassin Witch]

May 13, 2008 2:31:55 GMT -5 K. Aabye said:

I don't understand why you won't believe Melinda is Piper's daughter.. Is it because you don't think it fits into the series or is it because you just won't believe it? Have you seen the previous messages I have posted with pictures? I have private messages from Kathleen's mother and her. Not that it matters much. I just can't imagine why people still believe that girl isn't Piper's.

I haven't gone all the way back. Just from the last page. And I have read the beginning. I honestly do not have the patience to read this entire thread because you have your opinion and I have mine. I won't change it.

Yes, in some fics and RPs, there is a sister for the boys, that's not a problem for me (and I'm talking about my fics..but that's because I need a girl to focus on). But for the show, I PERSONALLY do not agree.

I'll bite. I'll agree with 4ever and Es...what they have just stated about the situation....I guess I'll say that's my thoughts. It's fully plausible that she is, but I do not like it, nor do I like this fairy tale ending. Way too 7th Heaven for me. It's not Charmed. So, I close my mind to the possiblity that she could be their sister. And like Es pointed out, it is because of TCS - which started in/after S6! That's what I want. I know we'll never get that in anything other than fics and virtual series, but it's what I like.

And, I also agree with Es' points about SPEAKING. When we watch the show, we don't see the scripts or the behind-the-scenes stuff. Canon is what is SHOWN. Not written, not discussed. SHOWN.

Plus, so say the reason she wasn't in the pic with Wyatt&Chris is because they didn't want to hire an actor....BULL. Why not have a picture of the three of them as children then?! *eye roll*

[spiritsas]

May 12, 2008 19:33:55 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Keep in mind that I also think the girl is Piper's daughter, and I LOVE 4Ever's idea that Phoebe would've had her daughter, Prue, before Piper had her daughter, Melinda Prudence. I have a hunch that will eventually become fanon even tho it is *NOT* (and can never be) canon.

I will insist that no matter what Kern says was his intentions, since he did NOT find it important enough to name the girl as Piper's daughter, if fans want a Charmed Sons spinoff without a sister for the boys, they are within their rights to write their own fiction and virtual series that way--they do NOT have to include a sister for the boys. One of my favorite virtual series, DESTINED: The Charmed Sons, has it done that way and the fact that Piper and Leo only have the two boys works beautifully; it feels like it's the way it should be--with the Twice-Blessed Child and his brat of a younger brother, that keeps them plenty occupied as is!

Your point about naming the girl and the "technicality" you noted a few posts down are valid, but I think your dislike of Kern and what you say is his male-centric spin may be getting in the way of some of the other points you're trying to make. There was a lot to wrap up in the two final episodes (which Kern considered a two part finale and probably shot it as such) and some things, as important to the whole storyline as they might seem, obviously got lost on the cutting room floor or were just never shot. And so, a few loose ends were left undone. Horrible that this happened? Not so much as it happens in almost every show that ends. For example, and this is a biggie when you think about it. Christy is not dead, at least not all the versions of her. The version killed by Billie was from the future. The present Billie was not killed (Both Dumains, present and past were vanquished by Piper, but not both Christy's). I may have the future vs. present Christy backward, but the point is what's important. This is a major loose end left unattended. Another might be what happened to P3? Piper opens a restaurant, finally, to live her dream, but they never said if she sold the club, converted it to the restaurant, or just opened a second business.

I know this has little to do with whether or not the girl shown was Piper's daughter (which most believe it was or probably was, whatever her name is or isn't). However, my point is that it's just another loose end and it's all speculation on our parts as to who she was or what her name was. As Es points out, technically, she has no name. Not sure if she was in the credits as she had no lines either. Our only source of information is what Kern said after the fact (if it was put in the script as part of the director's directions - does anyone have a copy? Does it say Piper hands lunches to sons and daughter?), as his intentions of what he wanted. Considering he wanted a fairytale ending for the fans ( he is quoted many times using that expression), as I pointed out earlier, the symmetry of three sisters having three children (2 boys and girl, three girls, and two girls and a boy) would be typical of a such an ending type.

It's only my opinion, but that is what I believe Kern intended, whether it was stated or not. I'm not sure what's wrong with such an ending, other than being too cute, and he didn't name all the offspring, but to me it's obvious this was his intent and he was the writer. To me that's important. How many of you ever saw an old Woody Allen movie when there's this scene in which he's standing in line to buy tickets for a movie and a discussion about a book breaks out and talks to the author's intent. One person has a strong opinion on what the author was saying and without the author there, no one can dispute him. Then, in classic Woody Allen form, the author of the book appears and tells this opinionated person that they have it all wrong and this is what he really meant. I say all this because not liking Kern and then saying it doesn't matter what his intentions were is like being that person on line who the author has to come out and tell them himself what his story's symbolism really means.

Kern was the author. What he intended, whether portrayed fully or not, should be considered the most probable interpretation. You may disagree with all of this, especially if you don't like Kern or what he did with the show, but he did write the episode.

[K. Aabye]

I still don't get why some people won't believe she is Piper's daughter. I really don't, and here's why: It has been confirmed by the kid's mother that she played Melinda Halliwell on Charmed. Just because some doesn't think she would fit into the show, doesn't mean she isn't there, because she does exist. Kathleen auditioned for the role of one of the kids and got to play Melinda Halliwell - Piper's daughter.

Look at her! Look at the long darkbrown hair and the brown eyes. What does that tell you? That Piper's daughter looks a lot like Piper. What more proof do you need? Melinda was also briefly mentioned in The Book of Three vol. 2

I saw that there are exclusive interviews and what not in it. So it seems like a very reliable source.

I think people need to wake up and just accept that the girl we saw with Wyatt and Chris was indeed Melinda, Piper's 3rd child. We all knew Piper thought she would have a daughter as a firstborn, but it ended up being the third instead. It does make sense. Come on, people, please don't lie to yourself. Of course, if you still won't believe it then there's nothing anyone can do.

[whitelightertony]

Melinda, it's all about The Charmed Sons, which doesn't have a chance of ever being made until Drew Fuller is released from his contract with Army Wives on Lifetime.

They're living in their own little world.

These are the reasons that fans (like Assassin Witch) who want a spinoff called The Charmed Sons use to say that she is not their sister. They will grudgingly accept cousins because they have to, but they will NOT under any circumstances accept a little sister because they think that she will take away from their stars, especially when Kern gave them this opening.

Now, personally, I don't think the spinoff will ever exist, but if those fans want to leave Piper's daughter out of their fanfiction or their virtual series, they are just as much in the right to do so as fans who include her in theirs and name her Melinda or Prue or Patty or Griselda, for that matter--the same way they can name any of the other female cousins whatever they want. This is all thanks to Kern very simply not caring enough to take the time to let them have a name, the way he did with Henry, Jr.--a male named after his father Kern's final last bit of making the show male-centric rather than female-centric as it began and as it should've been.

You know what? I don't really care what people wanted to see in terms of The Charmed Sons spinoff.

First, The Charmed Sons spinoff is probably never going to happen, as you pointed out.

Second, even if it did, the characters of Wyatt and Chris having a younger sister wouldn't necessitate that Melinda Halliwell be a series regular on the hypothetical Charmed Sons spinoff. She could easily have gone to college elsewhere, and the series focuses on Wyatt and Chris's joint adventures.

Of course, given that Drew Fuller is currently under contract with Lifetime, it's a moot point. People can write whatever they want in their fanfiction. But that's all it is: fiction. It has no basis in logic or context, insofar as what we know about the Charmedverse.

However, maybe we should have a contest -- rewrite Piper's voiceover monologue from the end of "Forever Charmed" to creatively brainstorm what she could have said to make it 100% clear that Melinda was her and Leo's third child.

[K. Aabye]

I like your idea very much! I'm up for it if we're making a contest. Fab idea!

[Assassin Witch]

May 16, 2008 4:08:38 GMT -5 K. Aabye said:

I still don't get why some people won't believe she is Piper's daughter. I really don't, and here's why: It has been confirmed by the kid's mother that she played Melinda Halliwell on Charmed. Just because some doesn't think she would fit into the show, doesn't mean she isn't there, because she does exist. Kathleen auditioned for the role of one of the kids and got to play Melinda Halliwell - Piper's daughter.

Look at her! Look at the long darkbrown hair and the brown eyes. What does that tell you? That Piper's daughter looks a lot like Piper. What more proof do you need? Melinda was also briefly mentioned in The Book of Three vol. 2

I saw that there are exclusive interviews and what not in it. So it seems like a very reliable source.

I think people need to wake up and just accept that the girl we saw with Wyatt and Chris was indeed Melinda, Piper's 3rd child. We all knew Piper thought she would have a daughter as a firstborn, but it ended up being the third instead. It does make sense. Come on, people, please don't lie to yourself. Of course, if you still won't believe it then there's nothing anyone can do.

And I don't get why you can't let me accept MY OPINION on this matter.

I don't care what the actresses mother says. I don't care what the girl says. Piper did NOT say it.

LOOK AT HER? Hello, Halliwell. It's not like Piper is the only one with dark brown hair.

What more proof do I need? One, I don't care. I'll believe what I want because I CAN. And, two, I would need Piper to haved stated ON SCREEN that it was her daughter. Too late now. So I don't care what's written or said else where.

And, I think people need to wake up and just accept that some of us prefer not to acknowledge the girl as Piper's daughter. We're allowed to believe what we like.

[ShantaD]

I still don't get why some people won't believe she is Piper's daughter. I really don't, and here's why: It has been confirmed by the kid's mother that she played Melinda Halliwell on Charmed. Just because some doesn't think she would fit into the show, doesn't mean she isn't there, because she does exist. Kathleen auditioned for the role of one of the kids and got to play Melinda Halliwell - Piper's daughter.

It's just irrelevant, that's why. Drew Fuller's character was originally going to be Wyatt from the future when he was cast and when the season 5 finale was written. By season six, the character had changed to the younger son. Scripts change, characters change, names change, producers edit or add things. All that matters is what you actually see and hear in the final aired version. The line from the original script where the girl is identified as Piper's daughter was dropped, therefore it no longer exists as canon.

Melinda, it's all about The Charmed Sons, which doesn't have a chance of ever being made until Drew Fuller is released from his contract with Army Wives on Lifetime.

I don't think it's going to be made but Army Wives is a summer show with a different shooting schedule than regular season shows and he has a fairly small role. That's really not the main reason why a spinoff isn't going to happen. The CW is becoming all about sexy 20 year old girls, not much else. And Kern is only interested in doing shows about half-dressed young bimbos. So no chance of a new show about two grown men. I don't think Supernatural would make it on their schedule if it were just starting now. From what I've read recently, it's quite likely the CW may not last more than another year or two anyway.

[Fourever Charmed]

May 13, 2008 7:22:29 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

and the picture on the wall showed Wyatt and Chris, it did not show a picture of Wyatt, Chris and their little sister.

[/i]. These are facts that you can not deny and they are the reason why the little girl as their sister may eventually become fanon, but can never become canon, no matter what it says in the script, what was told the actors or what Kern later says or writes. [/quote]

D@mn. I told myself I wouldn't post here again, but I stupidly kept reading and although I really don't like that last scene in Charmed, all Es' talk about The-Wall-of-Disaster got me thinking and so I went back and rewatched that scene.



They've even got Chris in the middle. Craziness!

[pubesy]

it mightn't be a mystery 3rd baby. it might be chris or wyatt twice!

[K. Aabye]

I think that picture is of Wyatt. It was taken on the set for use on the show. Earlier, it could be seen in a frame "Babyboy" in the episode "Prince Charmed". But just because Melinda isn't on the wall doesn't mean she isn't Piper's daughter. In the frame where there is a picture of Paige's twins and son. There are also 3 other pictures, and we don't see them, so it's possible there is one picture with Piper with her kids, one with Paige and her kids and one with Phoebe and kids.