|
|
Post by dylan345 on Mar 20, 2011 16:14:44 GMT -5
I like the Queen of the Underworld story, even if it did mess Phoebe up. But I can live without it to have the rest of the show afterwards be better. Phoebe was better when she had this unreached potential to be evil. Like in the Woogyman episode, we got a small glimpse of what it would be like if she were evil, but it didn't last long enough to really affect Phoebe or change her like it did in season four. We left that episode in season one with the feeling that, because of Phoebe's personality, she was the closest to being lured in by evil, and watching the next few years where she comes close to it several times is the most entertaining. That suspense was of course lost in season four, which is why the earlier seasons are better for me in that way, because we are anticipating something like that happening to Phoebe, but still have to wonder about it.
Also, Phoebe had a dark side to her that wasn't evil. I loved the part of that episode where she picked a lock, and Prue said, "I'm not surprised you know how to do this." Or when she picked the warlock's pocket. These little things show how she isn't exactly a model citizen like her sisters, and make her more interesting. Her embracing her dark side was a lot better than her embracing her evil side, although her being evil was a very captivating story to watch.
|
|
Jad
Familiar
I was going to go with Liberty Jad, aren't you glad I didn't?
Posts: 256
|
Post by Jad on Mar 22, 2011 3:13:01 GMT -5
I agree that Long Live the Queen was written more to dig them out of the mess that Phoebe made in We're off to see the Wizard.
The point is don't give Phoebe an ethical decision to make, she will always make the wrong one.
The Seer played her like the person who was prone to evil. Phoebe could see evil that was all shock and awe, power and bluster, but confront her with sneaky, seductive and manipulative evil, they fooled her everytime.
I agree with the point that Phoebe always confused lust and love, and I find it quite ironic that the girl who could see the future never could see the consequences of her actions.
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
|
Post by Esmeralda on Mar 22, 2011 7:18:44 GMT -5
I agree that Long Live the Queen was written more to dig them out of the mess that Phoebe made in We're off to see the Wizard. The point is don't give Phoebe an ethical decision to make, she will always make the wrong one. The Seer played her like the person who was prone to evil. Phoebe could see evil that was all shock and awe, power and bluster, but confront her with sneaky, seductive and manipulative evil, they fooled her everytime. I agree with the point that Phoebe always confused lust and love, and I find it quite ironic that the girl who could see the future never could see the consequences of her actions. Bravo! One of the best posts in a long time! For this you have been blessed! |
|
|
|
Post by dstar151 on Jun 9, 2011 10:19:27 GMT -5
I seen a post of someone mentioning this before. But can someone please explain if there is a difference between the woogyman and the nexus?
I noticed in S1 and his return in S2 it was viewed more as a demonic shadow and was able to talk. The Nexus later on was just this great source of power that can be used for good or evil. and did not talk. But everyone it went into it was used for evil or turned evil. Just liek it turned Phoebe evil
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jun 9, 2011 11:15:49 GMT -5
Yes, there's a huge difference. The Nexus is a location, the nexus, ie. center, of a pentagram formed by five natural/wiccan elements (and, yes, I know that in the real world, these aren't actually wiccan elements, but they are in the Charmedverse) , where the Manor is located. If Good occupies the Manor, the location becomes a spot where strong good magic can be performed; if Evil occupies the Manor, the location becomes a spot where strong evil magic can be performed.
The Woogyman is Phoebe's childhood name for the the shadow which took over Phoebe and later took over Zankou, and which was trapped under the Manor during the Great Earthquake. If that took over someone, the Manor (and the Nexus) became evil, the reason why Zankou wanted to be possessed by the Shadow and why the sisters wanted to stop him.
I thought that Brad Kern had messed up the Nexus for the Shadow, but once I rewatched S7 during my vacation, I found out I was wrong - he called the thing that took over Zankou the Shadow, not the Nexus.
The Shadow is *not* the Nexus nor is the Nexus an actual thing. That's the difference.
|
|
Lexi
Familiar
Peek-a-boo...I see you!
Posts: 218
|
Post by Lexi on Jun 9, 2011 11:42:38 GMT -5
I think the main problem came when The Elders mentioned the spell of "to destroy a suxen", which is nexus spelt backwards. A spell wouldn't have destroyed the nexus, since to destroy it, you would have had to destroy one of the five elements. Instead, the sisters removed the threat of the Shadow that was residing under the basement.
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jun 9, 2011 12:22:28 GMT -5
I do believe you've hit the nail on the head, Lexi - the Shadow is a suxen - I'd forgotten about that spell.
For this you have been blessed!
|
|
|
|
Post by joshingabout on Jun 9, 2011 14:07:13 GMT -5
I disagree. I always perceived the Nexus to be the spiritual energy of the convergence of the 5 elements, represented as the grey smoke seen in Seasons 5 and 7.
I don't believe that the Woogyman was the 'Shadow', as I believe the word was used for both the Woogy and the Nexus. I think that when Leo took in the Shadow, it was actually the power of the Nexus, as he was considered a neutral force (like the Nexus is, where it can empower either good or evil magic), and Leo used his powers to go against Zankou, not the Charmed Ones. He wasn't turned evil, like Phoebe was when she was possessed by the Woogyman. Her possession was more like a demonic possession, whereas Leo's was an infusion of power.
I never really believed that the Woogyman was destroyed in the season 7 finale, as I always took it that the Elders spell to destroy the Nexus (since Suxen is just 'Nexus' backwards) in fact destroyed the Nexus, meaning that in Season 8 the sisters lost their power boost when at home. I think that the Woogy is more like an evil spirit trapped next to the Nexus, which is a fountain of magical power.
That's the foundation for my Charmed Again episode one anyway. I can see your points, but I don't necessarily agree.
|
|
Lexi
Familiar
Peek-a-boo...I see you!
Posts: 218
|
Post by Lexi on Jun 9, 2011 14:54:02 GMT -5
I'm just going off what was stated in Season 1 which was about how the Nexus was there because it was the centre of the five physical points. It was a geographical point. The shadow and the Woogyman were always interchangeable - the Woogyman was what Phoebe called it as a child because it was like the "boogieman".
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jun 9, 2011 15:06:30 GMT -5
Exactly correct. And since that was in Season One, it's canon.
|
|
|
|
Post by joshingabout on Jun 9, 2011 15:56:24 GMT -5
Yeah, the Nexus is a location, but I don't see why it's not also spiritual energy, as it's also stated that it empowers those who control the Nexus, both good and evil.
Phoebe was born in the Manor, meaning that she is more likely to be influenced by Evil through her connection to the Nexus, as it empowers both good and bad magic. I think that the Woogyman is an external force that is used to demonstrate Phoebe's vulnerability, and isn't the power of the Nexus itself, as that wouldn't make sense, since the Woogy is inheritly evil. If the Woogy was the power of the Nexus, it'd be neutral by default and it'd be a force of Good magic when the Charmed Ones inherited the house, thus Phoebe wouldn't have been possessed in the first place.
Therefore I come to the conclusion that the 'Shadow' that Zankou intakes is definitely the power of the Nexus, as it was shown to be a neutral force with Leo; and that the Woogyman is, as you say, a supernatural Boogieman of sorts, and its only connection to the Nexus is that it too was/is trapped under the basement.
|
|
|
|
Post by Astral Echo on Jun 9, 2011 16:01:37 GMT -5
The Woogyman was a demon that was trapped underneath the Manor, situated exactly where the Nexus was. The Woogy fed off the Nexus which was a power source. It wasn't just a location.
|
|
|
|
Post by joshingabout on Jun 9, 2011 16:06:01 GMT -5
See, I've always thought this but I never had a creditable source (since Charmed Wiki is well, a wiki). I'm glad I'm not alone in this  |
|
|
|
Post by dstar151 on Jun 9, 2011 17:52:52 GMT -5
I just watched the importance of being Pheobe, and I noticed that when Cole took in the Nexus or shadow, she used the same spell she used against the Woogyman. I am light, I am one to strong to fight. Now if that was the same Power of neutral energy than that spell should've never worked on it. She should've neevr assumed Cole was dead either. The spell to banish or vanquish a Suxen should've been used instead. That sounds like to me the Woogyman is the Nexus, or is the Shadow that Zankou takes in. Which I don't understand why they didn't just use the I am light spell like they did with Cole. The only thing I can think of is that this is an error on part of the show.
Cole took in the and was after the Nexus power and it went into him. Phoebe says the I am light spell. It retracts back into the ground sucking Cole and the demons.
Zankou takes in the Nexus, all of the sudden the I am light spell is invalid.
There is no difference in circumstance. Both guys wanted it for evil. So why the I am light was effective against Coles intake and they needed a new one for Zankou? From the looks of it they both took in the samething. I assumed the Woogyman was a demonic shadow, but if the Woogyman spell worked on Cole when he took i nthe Nexus, then they have to be the samething? It fled back into the ground, both guys had the same effect when it went into them. So I'm still confused lol
|
|
|
|
Post by joshingabout on Jun 9, 2011 18:03:45 GMT -5
That's a valid point, which I'd put as an error on the show. The spell to Banish a Suxen wasn't invented then in terms of the show. Also, the girls night not have realised a Suxen was just the Nexus, spelt backwards. Not everyone is an anagram champion.
I always thought of Grams' rhyme as a banishing spell, as it banished the invading/possessing force back under the Manor. In that sense it should work on both, as the Woogy had the power to possess a host as did the Nexus (mainly because it says "You cannot have this Halliwell" as an example of refusing to be possessed).
|
|
|
|
Post by dstar151 on Jun 9, 2011 18:10:03 GMT -5
^^ thats true. But that spell should'nt have worked against Cole. The shadow wasn't directly attacking her or trying to possess her like in S1. It was in Cole.
I just realized that, when Abraxis brings back passed vanquished enemies, he brings back the woogyman. In that case, I say then they are different because you need the special chant to bring out the Nexus. Also, the Woogyman appeared in the livinb room not the basement, and when Piper said the I am light spell, it vanished like a vanquish, not retreat to the basement. I will conclude that the situation with Cole was an error. If i'm right.
|
|
Reality Bites
Familiar
When witches don't fight we burn.
Posts: 452 
|
Post by Reality Bites on Jun 9, 2011 21:43:17 GMT -5
Well to be fair, in The Importance of Being Phoebe, the sisters claim that Cole has to take in the Shadow to gain access to the Nexus' powers. They don't claim that the Shadow is the Nexus, and they actually speak as though they are two separate (but connected) things. Phoebe: You guys! Okay, well, I'm assuming since you're standing out on the street, that means Cole's in the house?
Piper: Yeah, but we don't know why.
Phoebe: He wants the Nexus.
Piper: Oh, no, he does not.
Paige: Wait, didn't I read about that in the Book of Shadows? Isn't that what made you evil before?
Piper: How does he know about that?
Phoebe: He knows everything about us. Okay, look, if he wants its power, he's gonna have to open the earth under the basement and take the shadow into him.
Leo: Okay, so how do we stop him?
Phoebe: Well, we can't, but once he has the shadow, there is a spell that can send it back into the earth and hopefully take Cole with him.
Piper: Yeah, but it has to be said over the Nexus in the basement. From the dialogue it appears that the Shadow is the key to accessing the Nexus' power. If you possess the Shadow, you can tap into the Nexus power. This begs the question, did being trapped beneath the earth of the manor link the Shadow to the Nexus? Almost similar to how in the comic books Neena and her mate gained a connection to The All . Maybe that's why Grams only ever banished the shadow. If the Shadow became a part of the Nexus, she couldn't risk destroying the Shadow without de-powering the Nexus. |
|
|
|
Post by dstar151 on Jun 9, 2011 22:09:01 GMT -5
But is that shadow the actual Nexus shadow, or the Woogyman? Or is the Woogyman the actual Nexus shadow?
I consider the Woogyman based on S2 to be completely separate due to the fact Abraxis was able to conjure it without having to be near the Nexus point. Piper saying the spell it was vanquished. It did not retreat back into the basement, and JOSH is right. The Nexus is neutral. The Woogy seemed pure evil
|
|
Reality Bites
Familiar
When witches don't fight we burn.
Posts: 452
|
Post by Reality Bites on Jun 9, 2011 22:32:25 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the Woogyman Is the Shadow? and grams only banished it for fear of depowering the Nexus? I'm severly lost on this issue. I consider the Woogyman based on S2 to be completely separate due to the fact Abraxis was able to conjure it without having to be near the Nexus point. Piper saying the spell it was vanquished. It did not retreat back into the basement, and JOSH is right. The Nexus is neutral. The Woogy seemed pure evil You edited your post while I was writing my post. In your original post above mine, you didn't mention that theory. |
|
|
|
Post by dstar151 on Jun 9, 2011 22:37:02 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the Woogyman Is the Shadow? and grams only banished it for fear of depowering the Nexus? I'm severly lost on this issue. I consider the Woogyman based on S2 to be completely separate due to the fact Abraxis was able to conjure it without having to be near the Nexus point. Piper saying the spell it was vanquished. It did not retreat back into the basement, and JOSH is right. The Nexus is neutral. The Woogy seemed pure evil You edited your post while I was writing my post. In your original post above mine, you didn't mention that theory. Lol i'm sorry. I edited my post because i'm totally confused and I wanted to make sense with what I say. I'm trying to understand the difference in thd Woogyman and the Nexus shadow Or if theyre the same |
|
