Most common Charmed problems:

[Assassin Witch]

whitelightertony said:

Also, I think we're essentially referring to the same power by different names (based on preference).

When Paige calls for an object, and summons it into her possession (via orbs) ---

- You consider it to be "teleportation"
- I consider it to be "transkinesis"
- other people consider it to be "TK orbing"

Am I basically understanding our differences correctly, in light of the dissimilar phrasing we (and others on this board) may use?

I would say that's it. Same ability just people refer to it as different names.

[1fanofcharmed]

I agree.

[whitelightertony]

Whitelightertony . . . please give it up. You will never convince me. Okay? You have your opinion. I have mine.

I'm not trying to "convince" you. I'm trying to understand your opinion.

If you have such a problem with people trying to understand what you're saying - - no one's forcing you to post on this board.

[ljones]

If you have such a problem with people trying to understand what you're saying - - no one's forcing you to post on this board.


Don't try to put me on the defensive. I don't have a problem with peoplewho fail to understand me. But it seems you have a problem with me failing to understand you or not agreeing with your opinions.

I don't agree with your description or the show's description of Paige's power. You call it telekinetic orbing. I call it teleporation. That's it. End of story.

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony, I have no idea what transkinesis means, but it may not be the same as teleportation or even telekinetic orbing, whatever that means. Please answer a simple question when you decide which term to employ and see if that terms fits the action you wish to describe. Though the question can be phrased in various ways, the answers point to a clear choice: telekinesis or teleportation.

Version 1 of the Question:

Is the object moving across space or through space?[/b][/i][/center][/color]

Version 2 of the Question:

Did the object experience a change in momentum whilst its position is changed?

If the answer to the first question is "through space" or the second question is "yes", then we are talking about telekinesis. If the answer to the first question is "across space" or the second question is "no", then we are talking about teleportation. Explanation follows:


TELEKINESIS: THE MOVEMENT OF AN OBJECT THROUGH SPACE BY IMPARTING MOMENTUM TO AN OBJECT AT REST OR CHANGING THE MOMENTUM OR DIRECTION OR BOTH OF A MOVING OBJECT.

This can be accomplished by a flick of the arm (Cole in Sam I Am; Prue with the Grimlocks and, of course, in All Hell Breaks Loose), by a blink of the eye (Prue in many, many episodes) or by thought (Prue in Something Wiccan when she causes Roger's tie to strangle him). The latter is also given the name psychokinesis in order to describe Max Franklin's powers in Secrets and Guys. But clearly Prue has this ability already. Or, it can be accomplished by using orbs to actually move the object through space. When Paige re-directs an incoming object or causes an iron bar to be flung at attacking demons (in The Seven Year Witch), she is demonstrating that her orbing ability can be consistent with telekinesis.

Implied in the imparting of momentum or a change in direction of a moving object or its momentum whilst moving is a change in velocity. In order to accomplish any of this work must be done. That is, kinetic energy must be transferred from the initiator to the object whose momentum is being altered. That's why "kinetic" is part of the description of this power.

TELEPORTATION: THE MOVEMENT OF AN OBJECT ACROSS SPACE WITHOUT NECESSARILY CROSSING THROUGH THE ENTIRE SPACE INBETWEEN POSITION A (WHERE AN OBJECT WAS) AND POSITION B (WHERE AN OBJECT IS).

My fax copy idea is only partially acceptable (to me) since there is something which does move across space, an electronic coding that is reproduced at the other end. The original remains at one position, a copy is generated at another.

Yet, in Star Trek, where teleportation gots its cinematic debut, the idea arises that teleportation can occur without the necessary reproduction of a carbon copy. That is, one could somehow dematerialize matter and send this through space, but not across every bit of intervening space, and reconstitute the original matter at a distant location.

This is what happens in Charmed, too. Yet, in Charmed, one gets the impression especially from Centennial Charmed, that when orbing occurs, it takes place through other planes of existence and not simply through the immediate geometric space. Clearly, Paige exhibits this power, too.

Now, in this case, Paige does not give a resting object any momentum when she causes it to move from one stationary location to another. Hence, there is no need for her to work in a traditional way. Of course, for there to be equilibrium in the system, some amount of energy will have transferred from Paige to the movement across space - or planes of existence - without the object receiving any change in momentum. Perhaps this is why Leo notes to Paige that orbing burns up a lot of calories in The Three Faces of Phoebe.

There is no reason to call something telekinetic orbing unless you wish to contrast Paige's modus for moving an object telekinetically by imparting momentum and/or changing the direction of an object in motion.

Nor does there seem any reason to call something transkinesis, not that I have any idea what that term might mean.

Now, none of this will matter to those who could not care less about precision in definitions. I do since it does help clarify things. Clarity also allows us to understand why Piper's "freeze" in Run Piper Run to the district attorney in free fall from an apartment many stories high makes absolutely no sense. At that rate of acceleration, we should have seen the attorney slow down rather than coming to a complete standstill instanteously.

P.S. This is yet another reason why I reject the notion that Baccara stripped Paige of her whitelighter (teleportation) powers in A Witch in Time. Future Baccara already had the ability to teleport objects when he called for the athame containing a drip of Piper's blood to come to present Baccara. Remember he used the words teleportare! Clearly, witches or warlocks in the future can acquire a power of teleportation. Hence, it could be stripped in a spell. Paige's power of teleportation does not reside in her nature as a witch. It is part of her whitelighter inheritance and should not be removable when stripping a witch's powers.

[Reality Bites]

It's clear that it has been established that Paige's power exhibits qualities of both teleportation AND telekinesis, but that doesn't solve the problem of what it should be called. It doesn't seem as though any of us will arrive at a general consensus of what the power should be labeled as; some prefer the label of teleportation, others prefer telekinetic orbing, and then there are those who have crafted their own term for the (one time) unique power of Paige Matthews.

Of the ones I've seen teleportation makes the most sense, however the term does not adequately describe all of the aspects of Paige's very complex Charmed power. Thus, I am at a great loss on what "exactly" Paige's power is. I do understand it's functions and what it takes to operate the power, but the lack of a definitive name for the magical ability frustrates me to no end! lol! I may have to do as some fans have done and simply refer to Paige's gift as the power of calling!

I would be interested to learn what you, vandergraafk, label the power as (if you have one for it). It seems that you agree that the power contains aspects of both teleportation and telekinesis, but you do not seem to believe the power can be labeled as simply one or the other.

[vandergraafk]

I try to avoid the issue by ascribing her telekinetic abilities as her witchy powers. Teleportation via orbing is evidence of her whitelighter powers. Maybe we could adopt a term that ought to be discarded as whitelightertony wishes to use it and re-christen it in a different context. Let's call it transkinesis.

Still, I am troubled by the word since kinesis implies imparting some sort of energy in order to produce a change in momentum. THAT, as I indicated above, describes telekinesis exclusively, not teleportation. I'll have to reflect long and hard on this.

Suggestions, anyone?

[Reality Bites]

An unofficial term I've ran across before might work; teletransportation ("tele" - meaning distant; and transportation - a term for the movement of people and objects from one place to another). Though I've seen others use it in reference to the whitelighter power of orbing, but wouldn't it be a better fit for Paige's power?

[whitelightertony]

Don't try to put me on the defensive. I don't have a problem with people who fail to understand me. But it seems you have a problem with me failing to understand you or not agreeing with your opinions.

Now who's trying to put who on the defensive?

I have no problem with civil disagreements over content from the show (or in regard to characters/storylines). What I have a problem with are people who resort to personal attacks or who liberally swear at those with whom they disagree. And then who try to act holier-than-thou when they get called on it.

I don't agree with your description or the show's description of Paige's power. You call it telekinetic orbing. I call it teleporation. That's it. End of story.

That's fine.

But whatever you want to call Paige's power as first demonstrated in Season 4, Paige clearly uses telekinesis (in addition to her other powers) beginning in Season 6 and onward. End of story.

[whitelightertony]

Vandergraafk, in light of your lengthy post, I'm going to try to answer your questions as concisely as possible.

When Paige calls for an object, summoning it from Point A to Point B, I refer to it as "transkinesis." I believe this is a composite power borrowing characteristics from both Paige's witch (telekinesis) and whitelighter (orbing) sides.

Under ordinary circumstances, if Paige's only magic was that of a witch, she would have inherited telekinesis similar to Prue's. However, because of her father's whitelighter DNA, Paige's exertion of telekinesis is "corrupted" (so to speak) by her whitelighter DNA, causing an object to teleport from Point A to Point B when she calls for it. Thus, Paige's intent to move something (which, again, had she been merely a witch, would have happened in a straight linear path) is a form of telekinesis under the influence of whitelighter magic.

Side-note: as discussed elsewhere on this board, I believe Paige's whitelighter side would similarly have "corrupted" her witch powers had she received Piper's powers or Phoebe's powers (if either of them had been the one to die, instead of Prue).

Pure teleportation would be when Paige orbs her body from one point to another, which comes solely from her whitelighter side.

By Season 6, Paige is able to exert pure telekinesis in some situations (when she moves an object/person in a straight, uninterrupted linear path). Although that telekinetic effect is still influenced by being coated in orbs...but the fact that Paige can decide whether the object will be moved in a straight line or dislocated from one point to another illustrates how she is gaining control over her inherited telekinesis.

Eventually, through discipline and will, Paige could become able to selectively exert her telekinesis without the sheath of orbs surrounding the telekinetic path. Chris probably learned to do this by the time he reached his early-twenties, which is why Future Chris appears to exert "pure" telekinesis after traveling back to 2003.

Whitelightertony, I have no idea what transkinesis means, but it may not be the same as teleportation or even telekinetic orbing, whatever that means. Please answer a simple question when you decide which term to employ and see if that terms fits the action you wish to describe. Though the question can be phrased in various ways, the answers point to a clear choice: telekinesis or teleportation.

To go back to how you phrased it: I would answer "through and across space" to Question 1 and "Yes" to Question 2. The reason I say "through and across space" (rather than just one or the other) is because Paige intends to move the object "through" space (which she does, momentarily), but, due to her lack of control over the power, her whitelighter side causes it to be moved "across" space. So both "through" and "across" happen in succession, even though it might be easier or more convenient, for Paige, if solely the "through" occurred.

There is no reason to call something telekinetic orbing unless you wish to contrast Paige's modus for moving an object telekinetically by imparting momentum and/or changing the direction of an object in motion.

Nor does there seem any reason to call something transkinesis, not that I have any idea what that term might mean.

"Telekinetic orbing" is a term that fans other than myself (including some of the people on this board) prefer to use. I don't care for it myself, but each to his or her own.

I prefer "transkinesis" because it refers to the transfer of motion inherent in such a power.

P.S. This is yet another reason why I reject the notion that Baccara stripped Paige of her whitelighter (teleportation) powers in A Witch in Time. Future Baccara already had the ability to teleport objects when he called for the athame containing a drip of Piper's blood to come to present Baccara. Remember he used the words teleportare! Clearly, witches or warlocks in the future can acquire a power of teleportation. Hence, it could be stripped in a spell. Paige's power of teleportation does not reside in her nature as a witch. It is part of her whitelighter inheritance and should not be removable when stripping a witch's powers.

We've been over this...the spell itself stripped Paige of all her magic (witch and whitelighter sides alike), because that's what it does when used on a witch - - it strips the witch of ALL her or his magic. Paige is a witch, so she was completely disenchanted (as were her sisters) when the spell was used against her, despite Paige possessing hybrid abilities.

[ljones]

But whatever you want to call Paige's power as first demonstrated in Season 4, Paige clearly uses telekinesis (in addition to her other powers) beginning in Season 6 and onward. End of story.

Oh God! Whatever.

[whitelightertony]

I don't see you denying it, so I'll assume you're at least in agreement with that one particular point.

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

I don't see you denying it, so I'll assume you're at least in agreement with that one particular point.

I'm only going to say one word about your above statement . . . pathetic.

[whitelightertony]

I'm only going to say one word about your above statement . . . pathetic.

Well, given that the statement is coming from you, it doesn't really surprise me.

[Assassin Witch]

Come on guys, seriously. This is a pointless debate because people refer to powers differently. Don't dwell on it. Agree to disagree and let's move on to another one of the MANY Charmed problems.

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

I'm only going to say one word about your above statement . . . pathetic.

Well, given that the statement is coming from you, it doesn't really surprise me.

Come on guys, seriously. This is a pointless debate because people refer to powers differently. Don't dwell on it. Agree to disagree and let's move on to another one of the MANY Charmed problems.

You're right, Assassin. It is a pointless debate. And I'm getting tired of responding to Whitelightertony's childish responses.

[whitelightertony]

And I'm getting tired of responding to Whitelightertony's childish responses.

Apparently, not tired enough to cease with the endless name-calling.

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony, thanks for the clarification. I would, of course, object to your use of the word "corruption", even though you qualified this comment. Her whitelighter side merely modifies the means by which telekinesis is carried out. Apart from that, we agree on the details.

A second point needs to be mentioned, however. Your comment suggests that intentionality and learning play a part in how Paige uses her powers. Learning, of course, clearly does occur. We see evidence aplenty of this in Season 4. Intentionality, though, is a different matter. When moving an object across space without imparting momentum or altering an existing object's momentum, Paige will invariably call upon her whitelighter powers to move the object through different planes of existence. There is no intentionality here. She cannot decide for an object to move across space or through space. What she can decide is whether momentum will be affected. If it is affected, then movement will be through space and she will of necessity rely on her telekinetic powers. If momentum is unaffected, then she will use her whitelighter power to move the object across space.

Finally, now that I understand what you mean by the term transkinesis, I fear that now we shall also have to come up with terms to desribe telekinesis via a wave of the hand (Cole and Prue), telekinesis by a blink of the eye, or telekinesis by the mere thought of it. Oh wait, we already have a term for that: psychokinesis! (Can you tell I'm joking?)

Seriously, I don't think the means by which an object is moved through space is accomplished: orbs, waves, blinks or concentration. Rather, the key distinction is between through space and across space.

Finally, you must know that I included my P.S. solely as a little prick. I certainly don't wish to re-open that can of worms, especially since neither of us is prepared to abandoned rather reasonable positions. But, sometimes I just can't resist rubbing it in.

[whitelightertony]

I would, of course, object to your use of the word "corruption", even though you qualified this comment. Her whitelighter side merely modifies the means by which telekinesis is carried out. Apart from that, we agree on the details.

I just couldn't think of a better way to describe it. As you point out, "corruption" is a rather crude way to refer to what happens when Paige's whitelighter side interacts with her witch powers. Perhaps "modification" is a better term, even though the actual *modification* to Paige's powers seems to be sometimes merely aesthetic.

A second point needs to be mentioned, however. Your comment suggests that intentionality and learning play a part in how Paige uses her powers. Learning, of course, clearly does occur. We see evidence aplenty of this in Season 4. Intentionality, though, is a different matter. When moving an object across space without imparting momentum or altering an existing object's momentum, Paige will invariably call upon her whitelighter powers to move the object through different planes of existence. There is no intentionality here. She cannot decide for an object to move across space or through space. What she can decide is whether momentum will be affected. If it is affected, then movement will be through space and she will of necessity rely on her telekinetic powers. If momentum is unaffected, then she will use her whitelighter power to move the object across space.

So do you believe that Paige, by a certain point in the series, has learned how to consciously discern whether or not her reaction of moving matter will be "telekinetic" or "transkinetic"? Or is it mainly spontaneous, on Paige's part?

Finally, now that I understand what you mean by the term transkinesis, I fear that now we shall also have to come up with terms to desribe telekinesis via a wave of the hand (Cole and Prue), telekinesis by a blink of the eye, or telekinesis by the mere thought of it. Oh wait, we already have a term for that: psychokinesis! (Can you tell I'm joking?)

Seriously, I don't think the means by which an object is moved through space is accomplished: orbs, waves, blinks or concentration. Rather, the key distinction is between through space and across space.

I basically agree ("through" vs. "across"), with a caveat - - I think "psychokinesis" is strictly the ability to utilize telekinesis from afar without literally looking directly at the object you intend to move. Max obviously did this in "Secrets and Guys." In one episode, Prue even did this in the attic - - so it's conceivable that, if Prue had lived on beyond AHBL, her telekinetic abilities may have advanced into "psychokinesis."

But I view Prue's telekinesis as the same power, regardless of whether she would blink or use a hand-swoosh.

[vandergraafk]

As the seasons unfolded, I believe that Paige did gain "control" over her metamoving abilities. (I am toying with this word to unite the telekinetic and teleportational aspects of her hybrid powers. Meta, of course, means beyond. Move is simply the change in location in space whether that is accomplished by moving across space or through space.) In Witchness Protection, she is able to stop in "orbit" her attempt to launch something at Kira when they discover her in the attic. Certainly, in Seven Year Witch, she has mastered the art of launching objects at rest and turning them into lethal projectiles. At this point, one can speak of intentionality. I don't believe this was the case early on.