ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 28, 2008 20:54:56 GMT -5
No we don't. Even if we see Prue bleeding more, Piper could be bleeding just as profusely . . . within. So we don't know the real truth. I don't recall there being a question of whether Shannen Doherty would be returning for Season 4, considering that she was fired after Season 3 ended.
So, I don't think that anyone knows the real truth of what really happened. I certainly don't.
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Post by The Original P3 on Jan 28, 2008 21:36:08 GMT -5
No we don't. Even if we see Prue bleeding more, Piper could be bleeding just as profusely . . . within. So we don't know the real truth. I don't recall there being a question of whether Shannen Doherty would be returning for Season 4, considering that she was fired after Season 3 ended. So, I don't think that anyone knows the real truth of what really happened. I certainly don't. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The point of the matter is what we actually SAW. We saw Prue bleeding more. We saw her go head first through the wall and the first to be thrown through to weaken the wall's hold. So lets weigh it here..Prue..being thrown (first) through a very sturdy wall, head first. Piper, thrown (second) through the weakened wall with her whole body. I don't see what's so complicated about accepting this as what happened. Considering it makes perfectly logical sense. And yes, there was a question. Not made aware to the public but to the cast and crew of Charmed, it was not 100% certain. Shannen received her pink slip after season 3 wrapped and she was in another country (with Julian) shooting "Another Day". How would she have known she was going to get fired? Why would she have wanted to direct an episode? She wanted out. They said no. She was not happy about it but she would have returned for a 4th season, rather reluctantly, had she not been fired. However, at the time all this went down, this information had not been made public. This has all been gathered up YEARS later to piece together a plausible story that makes sense on Shannen's departure.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 28, 2008 21:51:07 GMT -5
I agree here. In the original version of the incident, Phoebe calls for Leo and Leo extends both hands one to each sister to heal them. So who is to say he did not try it that way again. I think he did because The Original P3 is right about Murphy's Luck. I actually watched the episode recently and he yells up to the elders: "Give me my powers back. I want my powers back. I want my powers back, I want them back now! I can't keep being mortal if this is the cost. I don't wanna lose Piper. Not at the expense of losing one of her sisters. This is my calling. You have to let me help. You have to give me my wings back." or something along those lines. this is also displayed in season four A Paige From the Past when Leo agrees to help guide Paige through the day of her parents death to help her understand, and especially the end when he borrows Mr. and Mrs. Mathews from Clyde and the expense of owing him a favor for it. So it is made obvious throughout the series that he truly values his sisters-in-law just as much as he values his wife.
So there is no way he would ever choose to go to Piper for any reason, her being his wife or otherwise. Not only does he obviously from the examples I displayed, love all the sisters but to choose one victim over another when you can easily use both hands to heal both would be very against the whitelighter values. A being meant to protect can not choose to let someone die when they can easily try to save them. And yes had he went to Piper first he would have been choosing to let Prue die since he is not blind and can clearly see how severely injured she was.
So sorry but I refuse to buy he was too late for Prue due to going to Piper first. I stand by the Piper's comment just coming out from anger and pain and confusion.
Also agreed, go check the image I linked at the beginning of this thread. Both injuries are clearly shown right there on screen. Prue was clearly hemorrhaging from the head and the ears which if it does not instantly kill it does not give you much time. Piper is only shown to be bleeding from the nose which makes sense since Prue was the first to go through the wall so she would have decreased the impact that Piper took when she followed.
no one is making assumptions, we are simply using the facts that are given to us to create a reasonable explanation.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 30, 2008 11:03:08 GMT -5
.
"Reasonable explanation" sounds like an assumption to me.
I'm also basing my comments on what I saw. I saw both Prue and Piper being badly injured. Which means that to me, both were in serious danger of dying from their injuries.
But we don't know if Leo had tried to heal them both at the same time or if he tried to heal Piper first . . . or Prue. We really don't know why Leo was able to save Piper, but not Prue.
We just don't know.
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spiritsas
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Post by spiritsas on Jan 31, 2008 23:18:41 GMT -5
This is a very good discussion. Allow me to add some fuel to the fire on a couple of points. First, regarding who was bleeding more. I agree with TOP3 that this is not relevant because they both had serious injuries, mortal injuries, in fact. That was what the job of the demon assassin was all about. However, forgetting for the moment that in the real world SD was fired, we have to remember that this was the second time Prue and Piper are hit by the assassin. The first time Phoebe was there to ward off the demon and call Leo. The second time, Leo was in the underworld with Phoebe, helping her and Cole get away from the forces of the Source (we never see this, but learn about it through bits and pieces in "Charmed Again"). The point I'm trying to make is that this is all about timing. Piper and Prue are dying. The second time around (after the Source had Tempest wind back time) Leo obviously gets there at least a few minutes later and it's too late for Prue. She's gone but Piper is hanging on by a thread. I think this explains what happened and the bits and pieces we get about it during the following episodes and puts this part of the discussion to rest. It was all about timing.
On the real world side, the other part of the discussion about SD and AM. I don't know why SD was fired. Only she and the other principals involved do. If, as TOP3 indicates, SD wanted out and made it clear to Kern and others (perhaps Spelling himself) of her desire, this certainly could have affected their decision. Since, and both TOP3 and I have said this in the past, SD directed four episodes of Charmed (the only cast member of the three to do so), including her last, it does not seem logical that she never expected to come back. We do know that she was notified, as TOP3 says, while shooting Another Day (which was being shot in Canada) of her dismissal. Since Kern was the Executive Producer, meaning it was his show to run (especially after Burge, the creator of the show, decided to leave), it seems logical that the order to fire SD had to at least be approved by him. If he didn't order it, he may not have fought the dismissal. This last is all speculation, but the result was that (as TOP3 noted and Kern has stated himself in interviews) SD was never asked to come back in any form, nor did she ask to come back. Since she was fired, why would she ask to come back (who would?)? She didn't need the money or the screen time. Kern says he never asked and it's obvious that if he ever considered it, he never acted on the idea. This is one reason a lot of people don't like Kern (but there are others having to do with the direction he took the show over the next five years). In the end, all Kern would say about the finale is that SD had been gone five years and the final show was going to be about the existing sisters. He noted that RM had been there two years longer than SD, the cost of bringing her back would not have allowed him to do the episode the way he wanted to do it, bringing back many family members from past seasons, and he would make sure Prue was mentioned. Well, she was mentioned (I think four times), but there have been other episodes in which her name was used more times. That minor point aside, my major point is that (as I've noted before) I think there was simply too many bad feelings created about how she was dismissed and replaced to ever attempt a reconciliation. Again, this is all speculation on my part and just what makes sense to me. The other thing we hear about, the SD and AM issues behind the set, may have contributed to this or not. We may never know. However, until we see something that shows SD and AM have made nice, I think there will always be this thing that keeps them apart. I believe both have "moved on" long ago from whatever happened, but that does not mean they are friends again or even speaking to each other. I would not be surprised to see SD and HMC appear in some show or movie in the future, as their friendship is well documented, but I think it will be a long time, maybe never, that we'll see AM and SD share the screen again.
Anyway, that's what I think.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 1, 2008 11:47:05 GMT -5
I understand what you're trying to get at, but again . . . we really don't know. We don't know if Prue was already dead before Leo healed Piper. For all we know, Leo's decision to heal Piper first may have cost Prue her life. Or . . . she was dead before he healed Piper.
As I keep saying . . . we don't know, because the show's writers never made it clear.
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Post by The Original P3 on Feb 1, 2008 12:05:45 GMT -5
Leo did not "make the decision" to heal Piper first. He healed them BOTH at the same time. But Prue was already dead. Leo can't heal the dead. Simple as that.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 1, 2008 12:41:27 GMT -5
Leo did not "make the decision" to heal Piper first. He healed them BOTH at the same time. But Prue was already dead. Leo can't heal the dead. Simple as that. Where do you get she was already dead? During their conversation neither ever said that Prue was already dead. We truly do *not* know. Each fan is allowed to decide what happened and each fan is right because we truly do *not* know. I choose to believe Piper--that due to Phoebe not being there, he got there later than he did the first time, so both were very near death, so he had a chance to only heal one and only healed his wife. I also agree with Piper--he chose the wrong sister because Prue was the best!
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Post by The Original P3 on Feb 1, 2008 13:18:43 GMT -5
Why exactly would he only have been able to heal one? When he demonstrated in the very beginning that he is capable of healing 2 people at the same time.
Healing Piper first instead of both at the same time makes absolutely no sense. He knew, when he informed them the first time, that they both nearly died. Prue was also Leo's charge and his wife's best friend/sister. He would not have gambled Prue's life in exchange for Piper's if he was capable of saving both. Which he clearly was. He just got there too late.
Also I might like to add that if it truly was Leo's fault that Prue died because he "chose" to heal his wife over her..don't you think we would have seen some remorse or guilt from Leo? We saw how devastated he was when he lost his charge in Saving Private Leo. Just an ordinary charge and he was so devastated he lost his wings temporarily. We saw grief and sadness from Leo just like everyone else. Don't you think we should have seen some serious regrets coming from Leo? Something like, "I'm to blame..I knew I could heal you both but I chose you and its my fault she's dead." No. All of the "you saved me because I'm your wife" rants that were coming from Piper was because she needed someone to blame other than evil. And like I said, Piper valued Prue's life more than her own and needed something phsyical to blame other than the demon who actually did the deed.
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Post by ivabulgaria on Feb 1, 2008 14:31:57 GMT -5
Why exactly would he only have been able to heal one? When he demonstrated in the very beginning that he is capable of healing 2 people at the same time. Healing Piper first instead of both at the same time makes absolutely no sense. He knew, when he informed them the first time, that they both nearly died. Prue was also Leo's charge and his wife's best friend/sister. He would not have gambled Prue's life in exchange for Piper's if he was capable of saving both. Which he clearly was. He just got there too late. Also I might like to add that if it truly was Leo's fault that Prue died because he "chose" to heal his wife over her..don't you think we would have seen some remorse or guilt from Leo? We saw how devastated he was when he lost his charge in Saving Private Leo. Just an ordinary charge and he was so devastated he lost his wings temporarily. We saw grief and sadness from Leo just like everyone else. Don't you think we should have seen some serious regrets coming from Leo? Something like, "I'm to blame..I knew I could heal you both but I chose you and its my fault she's dead." No. All of the "you saved me because I'm your wife" rants that were coming from Piper was because she needed someone to blame other than evil. And like I said, Piper valued Prue's life more than her own and needed something phsyical to blame other than the demon who actually did the deed. Yes, i think this too (in film). ps. sorry for my english ... again
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spiritsas
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Post by spiritsas on Feb 1, 2008 21:46:03 GMT -5
Injecting some real world into the discussion, again, we must keep in mind that when they left the set after shooting that episode, and even when they aired it, the point was to leave a cliffhanger at the end of the season. They all thought they would (or at least, knew they could) be back for season 4. The decision to ax SD appears to have been made after the shooting and airing of the episode. Remember, they probably shot the episode in April and it aired in May of 2001. SD was not fired until that Summer, so even if all the other issues were in play (SD wanting to leave, SD and AM doing an off camera dance, or whatever else that was going on), I feel certain that Kern had another episode in mind for the start of season 4 than what we did see. Kern has noted that they had to scramble to find someone and has always felt lucky that RM was available and willing to try what could be a long term TV role. He also noted that losing SD and introducing a new sister (and integrating her into the role of a Charmed One) pretty much took most, if not all of season 4.
Now about what some are debating about who was alive by the time Leo was able to return (the second time) and who wasn't. TOP3 notes he healed both at once the first time, so why not try again. We have no reason to believe his actions or approach would have been different the second time than the first. The only difference (and we know this, because the doctor is killed and Shax leaves the house in a rush after surveying his deadly work) is the time factor for Leo to arrive. They were, and I say this again, obviously both mortally wounded. Those few extra minutes, which is what we are being lead to believe, obviously made the difference of who was alive (even if barely) and who wasn't when he arrived. I also agree with TOP3 that Piper's outburst at Leo was not really directed at him. She is supposed to be grieving and possibly still in shock over losing her sister. The sisters were always emotional beings, as we are told this time and time again. She is angry and venting at Leo and his remark about not being able to heal the dead is a direct, very direct indication that Prue was dead when he got there, and obviously Piper wasn't.
We can each believe what we want and that's fine. However, to me at least (and others), it seems clear how they accounted for loosing Prue and saving Piper.
Think of it this way, to inject the real world, again, into this very long explanation. If SD had not been fired, don't you think they simply would have either started season 4 showing Leo arriving, yet again, to save them both and then they all continue to go after Shax and the source? They wouldn't even need to show Leo arriving the second time, just pick up the next day with Prue and Piper both alive and everyone saying how close they came to losing both of them and how lucky Leo got back in time. Right?
OK, you may not agree, and that's fine, but the timeline and result are logical progressions and fit all the facts we know or can reasonably extrapolate.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 1, 2008 23:21:13 GMT -5
I think that you're making an assumption. The writer of "Charmed Again" never made it clear whether Prue was already dead or not when Leo returned to the Manor after saving Phoebe and Cole. All Leo's line did was made it clear that when he tried to heal Prue, she was dead. That's it.
This sounds like another assumption to me. Especially since the "Charmed Again" episode DID NOT make it clear that Leo had tried to heal both Piper and Prue at the same time.
From "Charmed Again, Part1":
After reading the above passage, I don't see any indication or confirmation that Prue was already dead when Leo returned to the Manor. I can see that Leo managed to heal Piper and that he had tried to heal Prue and failed. But nothing in the script indicates that Prue was already dead when Leo had returned. Nothing in the script indicates that he tried to heal both Piper and Prue at the same time. There are a good number of possibilities in this scenario.
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Post by mikechase15 on Feb 2, 2008 18:17:20 GMT -5
You know to be Honest...when i first watched it i was shocked. I mean they have been fighting Demens for about 3 years then right? so they both should know better than to stand completly still in front of such a powerful deman. Prue coul have sent him Flying, and even if she didnt, piper did the same thing (you know just standing there in front of him) and she could have Froze him...even when she was on the floor,Before she got up. i just think that they could have made some sort of better ending for Prue.
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Post by mikechase15 on Feb 2, 2008 18:29:59 GMT -5
I agree with all of this. But as pointed out in Primrose Empath's fantastic new fic "Our Screwed-Up Destiny" (all right, I'm prejudiced because I helped her write it. ), as usual Piper blamed the wrong person. If you look at what happened before the time was changed and after, the true person she should've been blaming wasn't Leo but Phoebe. If Phoebe hadn't gone after Cole so Leo had to go after Phoebe, Phoebe would've been on the stairs where she could've said the spell so that both Piper and Prue would've been OK--even if Leo hadn't gotten there in time. So the true cause of Prue's death is Phoebe's love of Cole! Even if she didn't say the spell, if Phoebe had not been in the Underworld with Cole, Leo would've been able to heal Piper when she was shot and both Prue and Phoebe when they went through the wall. In both cases, the fault all lies with Phoebe! This is all a realy good Point...But they have been fighting Demans for about 3 years. they should have known beeter than to run up to him and just stand still. Prue could have sent him flying when she ran up to him but she just stood there and piper did the exact same thing! and piper could have froze him while she was just standing there, even when she was on the ground.i just think they could have made a better ending for Prue
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 2, 2008 23:15:36 GMT -5
Well, I do like the fact that if Prue had to die, she died saving an innocent--an irritating innocent, but an innocent all the same.
I definitely would've preferred if they had fired Shannen *after* they filmed the scene showing what exactly happened after she and Piper went through the wall--then we'd know for sure. I wish they'd fired her after Charmed Again had been shot, at least Part One, so they could've shown a picture of Prue during the funeral and we could've seen any memories of Prue that Piper and/or Phoebe would've been reliving.
AND I wish that Piper had blamed the right person. But then again as someone else pointed out, maybe she *did* know who the right person was, but knew that if she blamed Phoebe, Phoebe might have been so upset that it might have split up the remaining two sisters (again picking this up from Primrose's "Our Screwed Up Destiny) and maybe Piper didn't think she could stand that. By blaming Leo, whether rightly or not, she knew she was taking out her pain on someone who could take it--her angel. And maybe that's why Leo went along with them.
Thinking back over what was said in that conversation between Leo and Piper, this part:
I wonder if Leo meant that it was simply Prue's time to die and Leo and the Elders can't change that (meaning it wasn't really Piper's in Awakened); that it was her destiny to die at that time. Of course the Angel of Destiny could've stepped in at that point, like he/she did in Season Eight to save Leo, but I've always wondered if the only way the sisters would've actually gotten rid of The Source was if they had enough anger and hurt from losing one of their own. Since *that* was the destiny of THe Charmed Ones, to vanquish the Source, maybe one of the steps in doing that was the Elders forcing Leo to let Prue die.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 3, 2008 17:25:21 GMT -5
Leo was a doctor and a healer, so his gut instinct would be to attempt to heal both Prue and Piper so neither would have to lose the other.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 3, 2008 17:56:35 GMT -5
Leo was a doctor and a healer, so his gut instinct would be to attempt to heal both Prue and Piper so neither would have to lose the other. Yes, but he was also a husband and a soulmate. His stronger gut reaction would've been to heal his wife and soulmate.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 4, 2008 2:43:47 GMT -5
Leo did not "make the decision" to heal Piper first. He healed them BOTH at the same time. But Prue was already dead. Leo can't heal the dead. Simple as that. I agree with this. We even see him using both hands to heal both the first time around and we are talking about the same injuries both times Leo was just in better range the first time. So what makes you think he would change his mind the second time?
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Post by The Original P3 on Feb 4, 2008 9:57:10 GMT -5
Leo was a doctor and a healer, so his gut instinct would be to attempt to heal both Prue and Piper so neither would have to lose the other. Yes, but he was also a husband and a soulmate. His stronger gut reaction would've been to heal his wife and soulmate. And yet he chose to save soldiers in the field rather than help his best friends when he was a medic in the war. If he learned anything from that experience, it would be to save everyone and not just the people he cared about most.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 4, 2008 12:53:11 GMT -5
Leo did not "make the decision" to heal Piper first. He healed them BOTH at the same time. But Prue was already dead. Leo can't heal the dead. Simple as that. I agree with this. We even see him using both hands to heal both the first time around and we are talking about the same injuries both times Leo was just in better range the first time. So what makes you think he would change his mind the second time? How can you agree with something that was never confirmed on the show or in the scripts? When did Leo say that he had tried to heal them at the same time? Did they show this? So what if Leo had healed two people at the same time in the past? We STILL don't know if he had done the same with Piper and Prue after Shax's attack. So, why do you keep making this assumption, when you can't even prove what really happened? Why can't anyone simply admit that we will never know what really happen, unless Kern, one of the writers or the actors let the cat out of the bag? What is it about the human psyche that it is incapable of accepting that some things will remain a mystery?
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