ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Jun 2, 2008 0:04:17 GMT -5
I don't buy it. Vandergraaftk has a point. Even if Cole's original intent was to break the Source's hold over Piper, I don't think he would be stupid enough to leave it at that. Surely, he must have realized that it had to end with the Source's death? The Source was weak enough - between his spell cast upon Piper and Cole tossing energy balls at him - to die at Cole's hand. The Oracle certainly realized it:
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Jun 2, 2008 0:40:19 GMT -5
the fireball in that scene was never to kill the source. it was to injure him enough to save piper and return to the mannor asap, where the sisters have a strong power base IF the source did then try to attack.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 2, 2008 10:18:42 GMT -5
I have a hard time accepting the "never" here. First, how do you - or, we, for that matter - "know" what Cole "intended". There was no exposition on his part. We only see his actions.
Indirect exposition is provided, as ljones has pointed out, by the Oracle who claims that Cole will kill you. She has seen the giant fireball that Cole has conjured and either recognizes from the fireball itself that the Source's life is in danger or has seen a vision that such a fireball would kill the Source. (Yes, I know her crystal ball is nowhere to be seen, but that doesn't rule out a prior vision.) In the event, she sacrifices her own existence to save the Source.
The other evidence is derived solely from the characterization of Cole/Belthazor to this point. In Charmedverse, Cole was always presented as a thoughtful and knowledgeable "demon". Indeed, in Season 3, he explains a lot of demonology after he has been outed as the Triad's hit man. Reference was always made to his wealth of knowledge and insights all the way through Season 5. Denial of Cole's anticipation of the likely consequences of his second and more harmful (to the Source) betrayal of the Source had to impress upon him the need to vanquish the Source, lest he (the Source) exact a revenge ten-fold upon the Charmed Ones and Cole. And, isn't that what we see in Charmed and Dangerous?
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Post by whitelightertony on Jun 2, 2008 15:51:51 GMT -5
We don't know what Cole was thinking...but why would Cole believe he could kill The Source when The Source is clearly more powerful than him? I still believe that Cole lobbed the fireballs at The Source out of anger toward him, and due to his desire to save his future sister-in-law - - not out of any well-thought-out plan to orchestrate The Source's death.
I think the Oracle recognized that The Source was too obsessed with his desire to extract the information from Piper's subconscious, so she claimed that Cole would kill him in a desperate attempt for The Source to give up his info-fishing...in other words, she said the first thing that came out of her mouth in a hasty attempt to motivate The Source to abandon his immediate goal. I also believe the Oracle jumped in front of The Source as a gut reaction (out of her personal loyalty to him)...not as a way of intentionally sacrificing herself. Her death was simply a consequence of her own impulsiveness.
First, I think "Charmed and Dangerous" is irrelevant, since Cole is a powerless mortal at the beginning of the episode, and is only able to defeat The Source because he becomes possessed by The Hollow.
The points you make in regard to Cole's past characterization are absolutely true. But in this situation, Cole was forced to think way too fast for him to thoughtfully reason out all the potential consequences of his actions. The gigantic fireball he formed was a product of his pent-up rage toward The Source coupled with his desperation to save Piper. The Oracle may have feared that Cole's fireball could be fatal to The Source, but that doesn't mean it actually would be.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 2, 2008 17:46:48 GMT -5
Yes, I will concede that the Oracle's statement could be viewed as hyperbole in order to get the Source's attention. But, it could just as equally be interpreted as I laid out. The point is: pubesy's use of the word "never" is hardly justified.
As for my reference to Charmed and Dangerous, my point was not to talk about Cole. Rather, it was to illustrate the extent to which the Source was willing to use ultimate force against the Charmed Ones. Had Cole still had his powers, he, too, would have been a target. Surely, Cole, whether he had taken the time to carefully plan his attack against Alastair - and you are correct, this seems more like a Schnapsidee crafted when Cole threw himself at the hands of two demonic protectors in order to find the Source - may or may not be relevant. Cole certainly knew enough about the Source to fear consequences if he only succeeded in wounding - however superficially - the Source.
Yes, the massive fireball may reflect his own anger and frustration at the Source. It also representatives a significant escalation in his attack, one that had better succeed, lest an even greater price be paid.
If I may be allowed a pointed digression... During the Cold War, planners in the West contemplated dispassionately and coldbloodedly the advantages and disadvantages of a number of nuclear weapons scenarios. Limited use of tactical nuclear weapons was debated against the backdrop of the likelihood that their usage would not lead to further escalation. Were it not possible for their usage to be contained, one had to plan for full-scale nuclear war. In that case, one had to be certain that one could achieve destruction of the enemy. Of course, the logic of Mutually Assured Destruction was such that both sides had to have the assurance that each could destroy the other (many times over).
Now, contrast such removed-from-the-battlefield thoughts with the decisions a field commander might well have had to make had Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces breached the Fulda Gap in Germany and sent numerous divisions towards the Rhine. A field commander might have sought permission to employ tactical nukes in order to slow down the enemy advance. He or she might have made the command decision alone, if the situation had been critical enough. Still, any such commander authorizing the use of tactical nuclear weapons was fully aware - despite the heat of battle - that there was an implied risk of full-scale nuclear war and that he or she would be held accountable if full-scale nuclear war resulted from the usage of tactical nuclear weapons.
My argument here is that once Cole, in the heat of battle, uses fireballs on the Source, he surely must have known that the risk of escalation was ever present. Launching a massive fireball was tantamount to launching a full-scale assault on the Source that might lead to the destruction of both once the Source retaliated.
P.S. A Schnapsidee is a hastily conceived notion, usually inspired by a state of stupor, that is often times put into practice with harrowing results.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Jun 2, 2008 21:00:00 GMT -5
ok, sure, the use of the word never may not be appropriate here.
let me rephrase. the fireball that cole created could NEVER have killed the source during that episode. i am sure we all agree on this statement.
if the fireball COULD have killed the source, i am sure the charmed ones would have sent cole to kill the source with a giant fireball a LONG time ago.
i agree with WLT. the fireball was an expression of cole's built up rage towards the source. did he realise the consequences? probably. but then again, he already had every hitman in the underworld after him. in his mind...there was probably nothing worse that could happen.
and, yes, i agree, cole is an incredibly intelligent demon, but even the most intelligent people are capable of the most unintelligent decisions.
as far as the oracle sacrificing herself, she probably THOUGHT it could destroy him. but we know better.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 3, 2008 20:05:52 GMT -5
I don't know whether we all agree on that statement. Certainly the Charmed Ones were not aware that Cole could conjure such a massive fireball. Maybe he wasn't even aware of it. Thus, we cannot simply say that Cole could never have vanquished the Source. Yes, he had tremendous powers, but ... he was not invincible!
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Post by whitelightertony on Jun 4, 2008 16:57:59 GMT -5
If the writers had intended for the Oracle to get a premonition of Cole killing The Source, they would have shown it to us.
I agree that Cole would have been a target of the power-stealing Source if he'd still had his powers in "Charmed and Dangerous." But he didn't -- at least not at first. By the time Cole arrived in the attic, The Source had already flown past the point of rational, calculated thought.
And I don't think Cole cared about the consequences of creating the gigantic fireball. He knew that if Phoebe lost Piper, she wouldn't be able to deal with it. And if Phoebe herself got killed, he wouldn't have anything left to live for.
Well, it did succeed, at least in terms of wounding The Source. Certainly, had The Source managed to deflect the fireball back at Cole, Cole would have been incinerated.
My guess is that Cole was thinking so fast during the entire incident that he didn't have time to process the "what-ifs." He couldn't really contemplate whether or not his attack against The Source would be successful, because all he cared about was saving Piper and Phoebe. But if his intent was to inflict maximum damage on The Source, I don't think Cole would have waited around for The Source to retaliate.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 4, 2008 18:05:52 GMT -5
Well, on some points we are at an impasse. The what-ifs, as it were, would have been reflected upon earlier, just as field commanders had been schooled in nuclear deterrence theory. In the heat of battle, decisions ought to be made in light of that training, at least that was the hope and usually is for professionals in all fields.
I do, though, beg to disagree about your comment concerning retaliation. It's not the immediacy of a response that matters; it's the certainty that there will be one that counts. Whether Cole shimmers away to avoid a counter-strike doesn't really matter. The Source would have known how and where to find him anyway. Retaliation was a certainty and surely would have happened had not the events of Black As Cole intervened. For all the Source knew, Belthazor was vanquished. Hence, retaliation was moot!
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Post by whitelightertony on Jun 5, 2008 21:52:31 GMT -5
I definitely agree that The Source would have continued to escalate his retaliation, had both Cole and The Source escaped the situation intact.
However, I'm not so certain The Source would have been above using the powerless Cole as leverage against Phoebe, if he felt it would benefit him; the reason he didn't in "Charmed and Dangerous" seemed to be because he found another way (power-stealing).
Whatever processing of consequences went on in Cole's head during his launching of fireballs, I'm sure he considered every angle that was important to him. He probably thought he couldn't outright kill The Source, but might wound him severely enough (which indeed is what happened) to buy himself and the Halliwells extra time to hopefully come up with a better plan of defense (which they arguably weren't able to do).
But all I'm saying is the following factors had to have been most prominent in Cole's mind:
If Piper died, Phoebe would be too emotionally damaged to continue on, having lost her second big sister so soon after losing Prue. The Power of Three would also be dead again.
If Phoebe died, he'd have lost the meaning in his life and would probably embark upon a suicide mission against The Source.
If The Source succeeded in stripping the Halliwells' powers, they would probably still be targets. Why wouldn't The Source kill the powerless Charmed Ones if only to prevent them from somehow reclaiming their magic?
So while Cole maybe felt that if he managed to kill The Source it would certainly get the job done, I don't believe he was expecting it to work out that way. I think Cole was preparing for the worst.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jun 6, 2008 11:25:44 GMT -5
Why would the Source have to steal powers from the Charmed Ones? He was stronger than the Power of Three. That is why they also had to invoke the powers of past Warren witches in order to vanquish him.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 6, 2008 19:28:13 GMT -5
I don't believe anyone is discounting Cole's fear that the loss of Piper would be devastating to Phoebe, especially as the bond between Phoebe and Paige had yet to be fully established. (Please don't misunderstand me: I am not saying that Phoebe would ever have been okay losing Piper. With a powerful bond between her and Paige, it might have been a little bit easier to deal with.
As for the desire to steal the Charmed Ones' powers, one can look at this in several ways. According to the Seer's vision, the Source lacked the ability to vanquish the Charmed Ones and thus end the threat they posed. Now, the Seer interprets this narrowly to mean that he lack sufficient power. Of course, other explanations are equally plausible: his own hubris was at fault or there was a deficiency in tactics.
In the event, the Source believes he must tap the Hollow in order to gain sufficient power to defeat the Charmed Ones. Once he has embraced the Hollow, its desires to consume power become paramount. Thus, can we really say whether the Source chose to go after the Charmed Ones' powers, which he might not even have needed to defeat them. Perhaps it was merely the insanity brought on by the embrace of the Hollow that compelled him to act thusly.
My own view, of course, is that the Seer misinterpreted the vision for whatever reason: her own grab for power?; her desire two competing visions - one where she is working with Belthazor another where she sees the Source's demise; her desire to save magic? The Source had already eliminated Prue and had nearly prevented the Charmed Ones from being reconstituted. Of course, tactics would have to be altered. The Charmed Ones would be better prepared for subsequent attacks. However, as Cole noted in "Hell Hath No Fury", if the Source did come, perhaps he (Cole) should tell him to come back another day. That is, given the dysfunctionality of the Charmed Ones' everyday lives, perhaps they really would be vulnerable to attack, however lacking in sophistication such an attack might be.
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Post by whitelightertony on Jun 7, 2008 3:33:26 GMT -5
To render them defenseless, so they would be easier to kill. To accumulate more magical powers for himself.
I agree that The Source as an individual was stronger than any one of the individual Charmed Ones. However, vis-a-vis, I'd say The Source and the Power of Three were about equal to one another -- if The Source was stronger than the Power of Three, the ancestor-summoning spell wouldn't have worked against him.
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Post by whitelightertony on Jun 7, 2008 3:35:22 GMT -5
That begs another question: had The Source not been possessed by The Hollow in "Charmed and Dangerous," would the Charmed Ones still have needed to call upon their ancestors to defeat him? Or could they have done it with a simple Power of Three spell?
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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 7, 2008 12:25:43 GMT -5
Implicitly, this question was answered at the beginning of Charmed and Dangerous when Phoebe and Cole announce the key to the Source vanquishing spell, namely, tapping into the entire line of Warren witches. Assuming Phoebe and Cole have correctly reasoned that the Source could not simply be vanquished by a power of three spell. This is confirmed to us, more or less, in We're Off to See the Wizard when, in fact, the Charmed Ones vanquish Cole/Source by invoking the ancient line. It should be noted, however, that the Charmed Ones never really try to vanquish the Source with a power of three spell. Not even when they summon the Source to the manor after he has stolen both Piper's and Paige's witch powers.
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Post by paige4ever on Jul 28, 2008 19:10:16 GMT -5
This is a topic that was not needed to be discussed because belthazaris only cole and cole is tring to fight it off when he is around phoebe.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Jul 28, 2008 19:49:42 GMT -5
oh, dear.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jul 30, 2008 1:22:41 GMT -5
This doesn't make any sense. The Power of Three combined with invoking the spirits of the Warren witches would be more powerful than simply the Power of Three.
If the P3 was equally strong with the Source, why did Kern and his writers even bother to have the sisters use a spell that combined the Power of Three with the spirits of the Warren witches in the first place? What was the point?
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 30, 2008 1:35:28 GMT -5
The Source definitely was more powerful, but how to quantify this is hard to pin down. As someone noted, the coronation of the Source meant that he or she received powers possessed by previous Sources and combined these with ones he or she had acquired en route to becoming the Source. Consider simply the ability of the Source to sense his minions, lower or upper level. In Charmed Again, Part 2, the Source is able to sense exactly where Belthazor is, stab him without vanquishing him, and allow him to be so severely wounded that he apparently was unable to shimmer away. Could the Charmed Ones do anything similar? No.
What "equalized" the battle between the Source and the Charmed Ones was obviously the tapping into the power inherent in the Warren line of witches. However, equally important were tactical deficiencies on the part of the Source. His hubris caused him to consistently misemploy his own considerable powers. All things equal, how could the Source have lost to the Charmed Ones. A draw would have been more likely. More interesting, perhaps, would have been the Charmed Ones, allied with Belthazor and other renegade demons, to topple the Source. Now, THAT might have been interesting!
Suppose the Charmed Ones, allied with renegade demons, had indeed vanquished the Source, what would then have ensued? Might Belthazor have had to choose between Phoebe and his "allies"? Alas, Charmed's simple division between good and evil, with little allowance for shades of grey, made perhaps such a complex ordering of good versus evil less likely. However, Charmed did sort of redeem itself when Zankou forged a temporary alliance with the Charmed Ones to stop the Avatars, who themselves had crafted a strange alliance with the Charmed Ones.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Aug 4, 2008 13:17:05 GMT -5
I read this on the Wikipedia site:
What the hell? Since when was Cole being punished for becoming something . . . against his will?
So I went to check the transcript for "The Seven Year Witch". It was crappy episode that got some things wrong. But at least the script never had Cole claim that he was being punished for being the Source:
I have heard that Wikipedia was not always trustworthy, but . . . geez!
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