COLE VS. BELTHAZOR

[vandergraafk]

Ljones, the transcript is accurate. The interpretation is suspect. I'm sure you will agree that Cole had the ability to speak in a vague manner that certainly allowed for multiple interpretation. Call this the consequence or survival mechanism required for him to exist in the real world as a demonic hitman. He was under cover and had to be purposely vague.

Now, Piper clearly assumes that he is in limbo precisely because he had been the Source of All Evil. Or, perhaps it was because Cole, as Mr. Invincible, had tried to provoke the Charmed Ones to vanquish him by messing with Sam, fooling with Phoebe in Egypt or bringing down the weight of the law on P3, Paige and Phoebe at the Bay Mirror. Who knows for sure?

The question is: does Cole's response indicate agreement with Piper's charge? It certainly does not - at least not unambiguously. On the one hand, he could just be mocking Piper calling her the "smart" one. In this case, he was actually arguing the contrary. That is, he dismisses Piper's claim for its complete misunderstanding as to why Cole was condemned to limbo. For all we know, the Avatars put him there after his experiment blew up in his face.

On the other hand, he could be complementing Piper on her keen insight. Why would he do that? He was certainly familiar with Piper's snarky attitude. Indeed, he chides her for stubbornly refusing to recognize reality as she repeatedly attempts to escape the manor as a ghost. And why would he admit that he was guilty of anything when the Source occupied his being? That makes no sense to me.

In short, I don't think we can accept this dialogue at face value. As with most of Charmedverse, it is dialogue in near of explication. The proferred interpretation in Wikipedia is misleading and probably erroneous.

[ljones]

So, we can't really trust either the episode's dialogue or Wikipedia, huh? That's scary.

[vandergraafk]

Well, dialogue is always subject to interpretation. I don't see any problem in that. What I cringe over is an entry in Wikipedia that purports to be an accurate description of something that happened. Context is always important.

In what context was the Wikipedia comment made? If it was just stated there baldly, I find that truly problematic. If it was examined in the context of what I brought to bear in order to understand what Cole might have intended, then we have a difference of opinion. I, for one, would like to read a contending point of view that is well-reasoned and based on some version of literary analysis.

In short, this little bit of dialogue suggests what I have always contended about Charmed: there is more than meets the eye. It's not just fluff. Fortunately, Cole was the anchor around much of this deepness was centered. With his departure, Charmed lost more than just a fine actor. It lost its soul until Zankou resuscitated it briefly.

[whitelightertony]

I think Cole probably wanted to come right out and tell Piper that he'd been possessed by The Source's spirit (when Piper assumed he'd embraced evil)...but he also probably realized it would be futile to try to convince Piper of that. She was already set on believing that Cole had voluntarily turned to Evil, and Cole knew he had limited time to persuade Piper -- so he didn't bother correcting her.

Compare that to Season 5...when Cole would have had plenty of time to attempt to explain his prior possession to the Charmed Ones -- but apparently, it slipped his mind.

[pubesy]

cole was never the one to make excuses for his actions though. he accepted that he committed his actions and moved on. whether the excuses were justified or not.

[ljones]

Aug 16, 2008 22:39:42 GMT -5 pubesy said:

cole was never the one to make excuses for his actions though. he accepted that he committed his actions and moved on. whether the excuses were justified or not.

It's unfortunate that the Halliwells had failed to do the same on several occasions.

[vandergraafk]

I'm not sure I agree entirely that Cole was able to move on. It's true that he did not bewail his possession by the Source even if this did destroy any prospects for happiness with Phoebe. But, the Cole in Season 5 does not seem able to accept Bacarra's "vision" that Cole will bring the underworld to its greatest success ever. He agonized horribly over this and opted for suicide by witch as the only way out of his dilemma. That's not moving on. That's giving up!

[whitelightertony]

Yet, he still insisted on trying to force Phoebe to fall back in love with him, right up until the bitter end.

[vandergraafk]

Yes, but let's not overemphasize this. On the surface, he professed to undertake these actions in order to win back Phoebe. Yet, Cole was well aware that such strategems were more likely to anger Phoebe than win her back. Raising Phoebe's ire, of course, did promise to advance Cole's real agenda: suicide by witch.

[jate88]

How did you come to conclusion that Cole was trying suicide by witch again? It would be kind of funny if it all turned out to just be crappy writing and were being creative. Well more you than me I guess.

[vandergraafk]

From the episode Sam I Am through Centennial Charmed, Cole has but one aim: create a situation whereby the Charmed Ones will be forced to vanquish him should he fail in his attempt to win back Phoebe. His last best hope is creation of the alternative universe. Even here, he is forced to conclude that Phoebe will not have him. Suicide by witch becomes the only option, lest he become too powerful and become the new leader of the underworld, as prophesied by Baccara.

[whitelightertony]

So you believe that, on a subconscious level, Cole suspected that assuming his old identity in the alternate universe would inevitably lead to his vanquish?

[pubesy]

i don't think cole thought that far ahead. i truly believe that cole thought by returning to the past where phoebe loved him - and preventing the same future from occuring, phoebe would stay in love with him forever.

cole never entered that universe with thoughts of suicide........giving up is not in cole's personality.

[vandergraafk]

Yes, absolutely. This was his final gambit as it were. On the one hand, one could argue that he naively created an alternative universe on a whim. But, that runs counter to everything Cole ever was. He never did things on a whim. Everything was carefully planned out. At best, one might argue that he lacked the killer instinct - after falling in love with Phoebe - to carry his plans to their logical conclusions.

Once he was warned by Avatar Alpha that he was not Mr. Invincible, but Belthazor in this new universe, Cole might have recoiled in fear that he was now vulnerable to a vanquish. However, his response is most curious. He plunges headforth and wishes to play it out. Play it out how?

Subconsciously, he must know that not even this universe will bring him the satisfaction he seeks. The fact that Paige accidentally lands in this universe only hastens his demise. The power of three was not required to make the Belthazor vanquishing potion. It was only needed to protect the Charmed Ones from a casually thrown fireball.

Finally, Cole dares Phoebe to throw the potion. He ups the ante by declaring that she will not throw said potion because of all that has bound the two. Of course, he knows full well that those bonds are in tatters. None of what he says is likely to be persuasive. Indeed, it isn't. Phoebe throws a potion that Cole does nothing to avoid. At any point, he could have shimmered to safety. He chose not to. Thus, his true motivation is revealed.

[pubesy]

see, vander, that is only one way of seeing that scene. This is the way I see cole's final scenes.

Once he was warned by Avatar Alpha that he was not Mr. Invincible, but Belthazor in this new universe, Cole might have recoiled in fear that he was now vulnerable to a vanquish. However, his response is most curious. He plunges headforth and wishes to play it out. Play it out how?

While cole was told he would no longer be invincible, i don't think the idea of being so easily vanquished sunk in. Cole was one track minded about regaining phoebe's trust and love. Cole thought that it would not really matter how non- invincible he was - he was returning to a time when phoebe loved him completely - hence his "mortality" was irrelevant. hence there would be no forseeable threat to fear.

Subconsciously, he must know that not even this universe will bring him the satisfaction he seeks. The fact that Paige accidentally lands in this universe only hastens his demise.

see, i don't think cole does realize this. Cole's charater was always very logical and complex about everything except one thing - phoebe. this inability to think about phoebe in a reasoned manner has been clear right throughout the show - he was unable to carry out his plans to kill her - his love was the only thing stopping him from being controlled by the source completely - the list goes on...

hence cole was convinced that phoebe WOULD love him - because he loved her severely.

Finally, Cole dares Phoebe to throw the potion. He ups the ante by declaring that she will not throw said potion because all that has bound the two.

see, i see that scene of cole being frustrated by the current situation he is in - that his alternate self has betrayed phoebe - but believes phoebe deep down still loves him.

he tries to convince phoebe that she does love him deep down. hence she would not throw the potion. he dares her to throw it to place pressure on phoebe in the hopes she will crack - fall to pieces admitting how much she does love him.

the bonds they share may be in tatters - but believes the threads may just be strong enough to hold and save him.

Phoebe throws a potion that Cole does nothing to avoid. At any point, he could have shimmered to safety. He chose not to. Thus, his true motivation is revealed.

cole does nothing to avoid these things - because
A- he does not want to "fight" phoebe
B - he wants to make his life phoebe's decision. if she truly does not want cole - then he does not want to exist.

i don't think it was suicide as much - more active voluntary euthanasia.

[jate88]

the obvious is so boring

[vandergraafk]

I suppose now you understand why Centennial Charmed is one of my favorite Charmed episodes. I certainly can understand your point of view, though I do not share it. Clearly, Cole grasps how messed up his relationship is with Phoebe in this alternative universe. Second, he can only imagine the effect that learning she has a fourth sister will have upon Phoebe. A reconstituted Power of Three will allow Phoebe to abandon what pretense she still held that living with Cole held any rationale. Knowing this, Cole has to conclude that Phoebe will throw the potion. That is suicide by witch. How is voluntary euthanasia (by witch) any different?

[pubesy]

i don't think all hope had been lost by cole until the very final few seconds. I will definately agree that cole felt that the situation was more and more hopeless as time progressed. until he was 99% sure it was over. however i feel that he still felt that there was that 1% chance that he could reason with phoebe - so he was appealing to that 1%. and obviously that failed too.

up until the final second - you will admit, phoebe was conflicted. her decision to kill cole was by no means concrete.

also. i don't feel it is right to call cole's ultimate death suicide. as i am sure you know suicide is an act committed by a person to end their own life. cole did not end his own life. cole was homicidally murdered by phoebe. I am not sure if i was right to even call it euthanasia. sure cole had unsuccessful suicide attempts, suicidal ideation as well as deliberate self harm methods. but his final death was not suicide. If phoebe had intended to throw the potion against a wall away from cole - yet cole jumped in front of it - then it could be called suicide. but since phoebe deliberately threw the potion at cole with the intention of killing him - it is homicide.

saying cole committed suicide is almost like comparing it to darryls soul being raped by the charmed ones (and we both know how wrong that statement is) however just not on as grandiose a scale.

[jate88]

If Cole planned to be vanquished from the very start then it could be considered suicide. Though that had to be some good acting right after the charmed ones stole a piece of his flesh. Wouldn't Cole of had to know that Paige would somehow make it into this alternative universe though for it to be considered suicide by witch?

[vandergraafk]

Perhaps I should explain. Jate88 is correct when noting that intentionality is important. If Cole intended to die, then that is suicide.

Suicide by witch is a phrase I derived from a popular saying with respect to some police involved shootings. Some of the police "homicides" can only be explained in terms of intentionality. That is, the criminal acted in such a way as to provoke the police into killing the criminal. Why? Because the criminal had no desire to remain alive.

Police have been trained to be on the lookout for criminals or even ordinary citizens who try to orchestrate a confrontation with the police so that it ends in the death of the provocateur. These are called "suicide by cop". For "suicide by witch" I will claim ownership. I was the first to use this phrase.

As I noted above, however, the power of three was not necessary to vanquish Belthazor. All that was needed was a potion that used Belthazor flesh. It didn't even needed blessing by all three witches. Indeed, Phoebe never blessed the potion she vanquished Cole with. Thus, Paige's presence does not alter the equation, even though it hastens the confrontation and makes Phoebe's resolve perhaps stronger than it otherwise might have been anyway.